pai gow poker
If you ask the dealer, he'll suggest the House Way. The house way is the best for the house but not necessarily for the player. It doesn't affect many hands, but the house way is not designed to win, but to avoid losing. It's a very subtle difference, but one that is important to the house, since they are playing against up to 6 hands at a time.
If you see it, play Dan's EZ Pai Gow.
Also, if you're going to play the bonus, I'd start out playing low on the bonus. If you're betting $25 a hand and $5 on the bonus, you'll probably lose more on the bonus bet for the session then you will on the regular bet.
(You would think there are cases where it is counter-intuitive - for example, if you have a full house of, say, fives full of deuces, the strategy is to use the deuces as your two-card hand - but if it's twos full, you also make your two-card hand as a pair of deuces, even though you're not only breaking up a full house, but a three of a kind as well.)
Quote: ThatDonGuybut if it's twos full, you also make your two-card hand as a pair of deuces, even though you're not only breaking up a full house, but a three of a kind as well.)
With a full house, keep the three-of-a-kind together and put the pair up.
Quote: MrRalphAny idea how much you should have in chips if you want to bank at a $25 table?
A few thousand?
I figure a $25 table, if full, will typically have people betting $25-$150. I'm taking a wild assed guess that you may be facing $300 in bets. Of course you'll likely win one, lose one, and push a couple. But I'd still like to have a bankroll of at least 10x$300 facing that kind of opposition.
Note that many people, for whatever reason, will sit out the hand when a player banks. I do not know if they take this into consideration when checking your bankroll.
Also, unless I'm mistaken, most casinos do not allow player banking for EZ Pai Gow.
Some people don't like to play against a player-bank. "I want the casino's money, not yours," goes the thinking.
Personally, I ask. If a player is going to bank, I'll ask if they want me in or out. If I'm in, I'm in for whatever my flat bet is. If he asks for me to stay out ("To change the cards"), I'll respect his wishes and back out a hand.
I think that people make it more of an issue than it really is.
And, I can't imagine you can bank a hand of EZ-Pai Gow, either. Since there's no commission - the casino makes it's money purely on the basis of copy-hands. That's the only house edge. Allowing players to bank would render this game to have basically no house edge (if players had equal opportunity to bank).
Quote: PerpetualNewbieI think that people make it more of an issue than it really is.
It must be the feel of being in an out of the ordinary situation. Aside from the poker room, you suually play against the casino, not against other players. So it feels different. I respect thsoe players who dont' want to take another player's money, but not those who have a superstitious aversion against a player exercising her right to bank.
Quote:And, I can't imagine you can bank a hand of EZ-Pai Gow, either.
Dan posted that you can, but that the rules for that are set up so to make it very hard. I think it involves a comission, too.
Quote: Nareed
Dan posted that you can, but that the rules for that are set up so to make it very hard. I think it involves a comission, too.
Indeed, you are correct! From the Washingington state EZ Pai Gow description page:
Quote:
At the casino’s discretion, the opportunity to act as the banker can be offered to
players. If it is offered, the option to Bank will rotate around the table to each player,
skipping players who decline to bank. If a player elects to act as the banker, a 5%
commission will be charged on his net wins rounded up to the nearest dollar. The EZ
Pai Gow rules will still apply to the other players. Also, if the player wants to bank he
must have enough money on the table to pay off all winning bets of the other players
and dealer. The player must also have played a previous hand against the house
banker to bank. When a player is the banker the dealer will still play, betting an
amount equal to the last bet the player made when the dealer was banking.
Document
AKA - when player banks, the 'EZ' part of 'EZ Pai Gow' doesn't apply.
Quote:AKA - when player banks, the 'EZ' part of 'EZ Pai Gow' doesn't apply.
Yes. If you can't bank Blackjack or Roulette in the casino pit - why Pai Gow? Was one of the issues/requests I had when designing the game.
Well...it is because player banking is a vestige of the old LA card room origins....casinos hate it, it just bogs the game down, and many players are just trying to act suave by banking ("Look at me, I'm so sophisticated by banking!"), yada yada yada.
Most installs simply indicate "You wanna player-bank? - We have a poker room...")
The avoidance of player banking gets applied to all forms of Pai Gow, EZ Pai Gow Doesn't discriminate, the local house does.
From an operational and floor supervision point of view, it's just a mess.
As for location of EZ Pai Gow in the LV area:
1. East Side Cannery, Boulder and harmon.
2. Rampart Casino.
3. Fiesta Henderson, 777 Lake Meade PKY
4. West Side Cannery.
5. Golden Nuggent, Downtown area
more to come :)
Quote: PaigowdanYes. If you can't bank Blackjack or Roulette in the casino pit - why Pai Gow? Was one of the issues/requests I had when designing the game.
Well...it is because player banking is a vestige of the old LA card room origins....casinos hate it, it just bogs the game down, and many players are just trying to act suave by banking ("Look at me, I'm so sophisticated by banking!"), yada yada yada.
Most installs simply indicate "You wanna player-bank? - We have a poker room...")
The avoidance of player banking gets applied to all forms of Pai Gow, EZ Pai Gow Doesn't discriminate, the local house does.
From an operational and floor supervision point of view, it's just a mess.
As for location of EZ Pai Gow in the LV area:
1. East Side Cannery, Boulder and harmon.
2. Rampart Casino.
3. Fiesta Henderson, 777 Lake Meade PKY
4. West Side Cannery.
5. Golden Nuggent, Downtown area
more to come :)
Are current licenses pretty much the hold-up? It seems like DEQ has a pretty easy sell here. "Do you think your EZ Bacc table is fast? Yes? Do you see lots of action on the dragon bet? Yes? Great. Do you have PGP? Yes? OK, would you like to spread a table that's faster and includes a new high-edge high-volume side bet? Yes? Ok, sign here..."
Quote: PaigowdanWell...it is because player banking is a vestige of the old LA card room origins....casinos hate it, it just bogs the game down, and many players are just trying to act suave by banking ("Look at me, I'm so sophisticated by banking!"), yada yada yada.
You forget the untold thousands (at least) who bank because the Wizard advises to.
What if the rule that states the bank wins copies were removed, would players want to bank then? I'm guessing not.
Quote:5. Golden Nuggent, Downtown area
I didn't know about that. Congratulations!
Quote: rdw4potusAre current licenses pretty much the hold-up? It seems like DEQ has a pretty easy sell here. "Do you think your EZ Bacc table is fast? Yes? Do you see lots of action on the dragon bet? Yes? Great. Do you have PGP? Yes? OK, would you like to spread a table that's faster and includes a new high-edge high-volume side bet? Yes? Ok, sign here..."
Actually, and as with any new game, most casinos wait for some other casino to try it out first. That was the hold up. Now that it's rolling, it's doing nicely - Thanks!!!
Quote: NareedYou forget the untold thousands (at least) who bank because the Wizard advises to.
What if the rule that states the bank wins copies were removed, would players want to bank then? I'm guessing not.
Mike would advise to do anything that will get you the best possible player advantage while still being legal. All advantage players take that position, and I understand. For myself, I work for the industry - on the operator's side - at Stations. I can see the casino operator's POV.
If copies were always in the house's advantage, few would bank.
But banking is just viewed as an archaic gizmo of the game of Pai gow poker, and unnecessary in the casino pit. I welcome player banked PGP to be offered in as many poker rooms as possible!
I've never been to a California card room. Do they have player banking of other games, where the option rotates around the table?
Do any casinos or card rooms have Pai Gow Poker where banking is forced to rotate and/or where it's played in the poker room?
In Cali - the "house" cannot, technically, play. The house does field and fund proposition players at every table who bank every hand that other players do not bank. There are higher end tables where there is no proposition player - people simply buy in for the required amount (typically over $2,000 on a $100/hand table) and take turns banking on what looks like a mis-shapen big-Bac table.
The casino makes it's money off of commission. $1 for up to every $100 bet. Note, "Bet" does not = Won. So you could play 10 hands at $10 a piece and push every single one of them and be out $10. I believe I worked it out that this flat style commission is better for bets a little more than $60 (I think I got to $62, off the cuff) and up to (and including) $100.
Fortune Bonuses are paid out from the house. Jokers are *fully* wild. I saw more quads (Trips of any kind + joker) in a few hours than I have in a month at a standard table.
And, again, just at hustler, there's no sense of "pit" or table formalities. People are playing 3 different hands on 3 different tables, walking in between what would be "the pit" to do so. People will play the 1 hand on the far other side of the table - the dealer will move the cards for them. And when comparing hands, it's done in a very informal way - in "traditional" Pai Gow, there's a very fixed way of aligning the cards. 2 neat lines and the low hand in-axis with the first two cards of the high-hand. In Cali, it's flip the cards, spread them, pop two of them up and that's it. If you can't see Q35K7AQ for what it is, you're going to get passed by, quickly.
But, oddly enough, (and, I concede that my sample size is small.. maybe 1000 hands), I never saw one mistake. Not one mis-read hand.
My understanding is that BJ, etc. are played out the same way - that players can bank, though I've never tried.
Quote: PaigowdanMike would advise to do anything that will get you the best possible player advantage while still being legal. All advantage players take that position, and I understand. For myself, I work for the industry - on the operator's side - at Stations. I can see the casino operator's POV.
No offense, but I think lately you've been posting from a skewed operator's point of view. Almost as though anything a player might do within the rules to improve his chances is unethical. Just an observation.
Quote:But banking is just viewed as an archaic gizmo of the game of Pai gow poker, and unnecessary in the casino pit.
I've no quarrel with that. The solution is both easy and obvious: change the rules so banking isn't allowed in PGP, and for that matter in the original tiles game of Pai Gow as well. As far as I know, nothing prevents the casinos from doing so. Nothng kept them from placing in 6:5 21 games where the dealer hits soft 17, did it? I know if they were to change the rule that lets players shoot in craps, the game would die. But banking in PGP seems rather uncommon anyway, so why not just kill it?
Quote: NareedNo offense, but I think lately you've been posting from a skewed operator's point of view. Almost as though anything a player might do within the rules to improve his chances is unethical. Just an observation.
Humbly disagree. A player who plays the rules - as defined by the house - doesn't cheat and doesn't "take cheap shots" (again, just playing by the rules as defined by the house and out for a night of gambling) - is absolutely 100% fine with me. But slip in and make a late "Don't Pass" bet after the point of 4 is established - and arguing that it's not a Lay bet, openly lying abou it - is going to make such a guy look like a cheat and d-bag to me and the boxman 100% of the time. If a Good guy wins, then great, good for him. If he loses, and was a good guy, I feel his pain, not meaning to sound like Bill Clinton.
I dealt Pai Gow and dice to a player tonight (seemingly a very tough and gruff guy on the surface, but a sweatheart, really), I got along great with him, played 100% by the rules, and knew them. He dealt dice at Palace Station and supervised floor for 15 years, found this out after dealing to him for hours. He did mention that dealing as a dealer/floorman with the "Gambling General Public" at a low-roller's joint for years "changes you, maybe changes you for life, in your view of people, at least gamblers." I can 100% see this. The gambling general public is a mixed bag. Players gravitate to one side, and industry people who have to police their operations for dealers and players alike gravitate to the other.
[Banking as an archaic appendix to Pai Gow Poker...]
Quote: NareedI've no quarrel with that. The solution is both easy and obvious: change the rules so banking isn't allowed in PGP, and for that matter in the original tiles game of Pai Gow as well. As far as I know, nothing prevents the casinos from doing so. Nothng kept them from placing in 6:5 21 games where the dealer hits soft 17, did it? I know if they were to change the rule that lets players shoot in craps, the game would die. But banking in PGP seems rather uncommon anyway, so why not just kill it?
Agree - and a lot of places are doing this to clean up Pai Gow Poker - less disagreements, less dealer errors, less player errors and expectations, just less problems in general.
Quote: DJTeddyBearOn a side note...
I've never been to a California card room. Do they have player banking of other games, where the option rotates around the table?
Do any casinos or card rooms have Pai Gow Poker where banking is forced to rotate and/or where it's played in the poker room?
In California card rooms, especially Baccarat and Pai Gow, there often a permanent Player-Banker who bankrolls the game, where the dealer acts like disinterested party, like a poker room dealer. A time-based percentage rake is charged to all, or the "banker" pays a "license fee" to the house for his banking seat. Basically, a guy sits at 3rd base with $80,000 in chips (and probably a concealed weapon) and bankrolls the game for hours. Often named Mr. Chew, Choi, or Chien. If he's up, maybe $10,000 for the night, fine. If he's down, he covers. We call it "the syndicate," really, it's a who-you-know that gets you into that job. You do not see an ad in the L.A. times.
There are people who play Pai Gow Poker as a career...
Quote: PaigowdanHumbly disagree. A player who plays the rules - as defined by the house - doesn't cheat and doesn't "take cheap shots" (again, just playing by the rules as defined by the house and out for a night of gambling) - is absolutely 100% fine with me. But slip in and make a late "Don't Pass" bet after the point of 4 is established - and arguing that it's not a Lay bet, openly lying abou it - is going to make such a guy look like a cheat and d-bag to me and the boxman 100% of the time.
I agree with that, he also slows the game down.
But let's say I'm playing 3CP and this dealer flashes his bottom card. I won't say a word about it. I won't pretend I didn't see the card. I'll be on the lookout for more flashing cards, too. If a dealer pays me in error, well, I may or may not say something. It's in my character to correct errors most of the time (as you can see in this forum), but I don't always do it. If a BJ dealer has 18 and draws a card and busts, tough for him, too. I'm guessing you'd say all that is wrong.
Let me cite a concrete example. One time at Excalibur the PGP dealer had a flush, but set his hands with a high card on both, breaking up the 5 card flush to do so. I noticed it, as did at elast another player. I said nothing for two reasons 1) I'd have won that hand with that dealer set and 2) I wasn't sure he wasn't following some weird house way rule setting his cards like that.
Quote: NareedI agree with that, he also slows the game down.
But let's say I'm playing 3CP and this dealer flashes his bottom card. I won't say a word about it. I won't pretend I didn't see the card. I'll be on the lookout for more flashing cards, too. If a dealer pays me in error, well, I may or may not say something. It's in my character to correct errors most of the time (as you can see in this forum), but I don't always do it. If a BJ dealer has 18 and draws a card and busts, tough for him, too. I'm guessing you'd say all that is wrong.
Let me cite a concrete example. One time at Excalibur the PGP dealer had a flush, but set his hands with a high card on both, breaking up the 5 card flush to do so. I noticed it, as did at elast another player. I said nothing for two reasons 1) I'd have won that hand with that dealer set and 2) I wasn't sure he wasn't following some weird house way rule setting his cards like that.
There's the grey area....very wide.
1. Dealer makes an error flashing his hole card, BJ or 3CP, whatever. Players takes advantage. Not a crime, not an issue, between the player and God on judgement day when far away from me. Same with counting, if I'm not dealing or playing there. If I'm playing somewhere, I might discreetly notify a floorman, and for an outright error I'll say something open right at the table, no matter who it favors, "You have a straight," etc.
Granted, mistakes are not how the game's supposed to be played and dealt, and I may point it out at the table, will certainly mention to the floor if egregious. But I won't argue with players if I'm dealing, I just call the floorman if I'm dealing. If I see a bank's ATM pumping out $100's instead of $20's for the same transaction, I'll call the the bank's 800 number.
For me, If I'm playing and I see the hole card, and have an advantage, I'll either fold a winning hand or play out a losing hand one time, AND I'll point it out and request it be cleaned up. I do NOT want that money, creeps me out - though 99% of the people will take it with a closed smile. The old "Dealer error or bank error makes it mine, hope they don't notice, hope I get away with it..."
So, if a Pai Gow Dealer sets his hand wrong: tries to play a straight as a pair of 2's with no top, I'll point it out before the hand set is final, and before the table's take-and-pay. If a player said, "You cost me money, @--hole" - I'll answer, "I did no such thing, and you never won that hand or the money. A dealer's error doesn't make it yours, same with a bank teller. Go rob a 7-11, will ya?" I once pointed out that the dealer had a Queen-high push at the Cannery when she tried to pay the table including me. Again:
1. The money was never yours by the rules, and
2. Dealer errors get corrected, just as if the game had played with no error, that's the point.
3. When breaking in, I had players return "unjust" money on my mistake. I thanked 'em.
The game goes fine, and it usually does, we're all fine.
Quote: NareedWhat if the rule that states the bank wins copies were removed, would players want to bank then?
So who would win a copy if not the bank? The player?
I maintain that this holds true for dealers, too. It's their responsibility to find their own straights and flushes. It's their responsibility to keep the window (the bottom-most card in his hand) hidden.
I will correct a dealer to his own house way if it's in my favor. Of course, to do so, I make darned sure I know the house way for the place I'm playing at. But I don't consider myself a bad guy or a cheat because of it.
Now - weaseling a few bucks on the bonus when I hit one? Or capping my bet when I get a monster? That's definitely outside the rules and is cheating.
I suppose you could make the argument either way for opening my eyes and seeing other players' cards. I'm not actively cheating, but I'm not actively "not-cheating." That said, I don't know how Pai Gow can defend this without going to an iTable where the cards are hidden unless definitely protected by sensing a hand.
Quote: kpSo who would win a copy if not the bank? The player?
There rules haven't changed, the dealer/banker wins copies.
But, if it were changed, it can be done as follows - a la Mini-Pai Gow....
Push or tie that side of the hand (almost always the low hand), and let the other side of the hand fully decide the outcome.
Quote: PaigowdanA dealer's error doesn't make it yours
That's fair --- as long as the house never collects on a payer error, either.
Quote: PerpetualNewbieYa know, there was a thread a while back about someone's dad not recognizing whether or not he won an Ultimate Texas Hold 'Em hand. And, after some back and forth, the conclusion was that we're all responsible for our own hands.
I maintain that this holds true for dealers, too. It's their responsibility to find their own straights and flushes. It's their responsibility to keep the window (the bottom-most card in his hand) hidden.
True - it is, but sometimes they fail. As do Bank tellers, 7-11 clerks, you name it.
Question is, If I see something and can do something, - am I responsible? There's ALWAYS a path of least resistance.
Now, for an ethical experiment here on this thread: RE: we're respondible for our own hands, etc. We are also responsable for only our own safety, and our own pocketbooks (or table trays, think of it as such) - to extend it much further out?
An off-duty cop hears of a 7-11 robbery some 10 miles away on the news, says "that's sad, hope they catch the guy..."
Now, that off-duty cop goes to his local 7-11 or Speedy Mart, looks in through the window, and sees a robbery in progress.
Does he call it in - or does he say, "That clerk is responsible for his own cash register ("chip tray"). Not my problem. Yeah - I SEE IT. But I'm off duty...why cause problems?"
Quote: PaigowdanFor me, If I'm playing and I see the hole card, and have an advantage, I'll either fold a winning hand or play out a losing hand one time, AND I'll point it out and request it be cleaned up. I do NOT want that money, creeps me out - though 99% of the people will take it with a closed smile. The old "Dealer error or bank error makes it mine, hope they don't notice, hope I get away with it..."
No hope at all. Odds are the player will be able to win the hand, or fold a losing hand.
I wouldn't point it out, even if it meant I had a losing hand (say I've a king high and the dealer flashed an ace), because future flashing of cards might benefit me. If I were to point it out, I'd aks the hands be voided and the round be re-dealt. That would be fair. But no way I'd fold a winning hand or play a losing hand, not knowingly.
Quote: kpThat's fair --- as long as the house never collects on a payer error, either.
That's just as fair and as equal, too. But players generally mention errors only in a one way direction. How often do you see:
1. A player arguing that he was shorted, versus...
2. A player returning an overpayment that he could get away with...
I've seen floormen tell dealers to pay a player when they were shorted just as often as vice-versa. A mistake is a mistake, It ain't our money, we just work there.
Interesting: everything said on this thread backs up what I've seen in years of dealing.
People are people, are usually not saints, and take the path of least resistance.
Quote: PaigowdanTrue - it is, but sometimes they fail. As do Bank tellers, 7-11 clerks, you name it.
Question is, If I see something and can do something, - am I responsible? There's ALWAYS a path of least resistance.
There's a difference. In retail and bank transactions, no side usually has an advantage over the toher, casinos always do.
I'll admit that most people would return a penny to a sales clerk, but not a $100 given in error by a bank. That's because banks tend to act high-handed when dealing with their customers. That said, one time a cashier at EPCOT gave change for $50 when I paid with a $20. I honestly didn't notice, because I wasn't paying attention at all. She did, though, and corrected her error. Had she not done so, I would never have known and would have walked out with a free purchase and extra money in my wallet.
Quote: PaigowdanI've seen floormen tell dealers to pay a player when they were shorted just as often as vice-versa. A mistake is a mistake, It ain't our money, we just work there.
How often have you seen a floorman tell a player they missed a straight/flush and to reset the hand, and then pay them if they win?
When I'm playing a game of skill against someone else, I will not help them win, as I think that would be unfair to me. I also will not do anything unfair to try and make them lose. It's a contest and both sides should play to the best of their ability.
This is far different than trying to rob a 7-11.
BTW, I also believe that the casino does their best to distract and impair the player in order to give the casino an unfair advantage.
Every game will have dealer errors. It's a cost of doing business. If a particular dealer is an excessive cost to the business, then the business should protect itself and remove that dealer (at least from that game until he can be retrained properly)
Quote: Paigowdan
Now, for an ethical experiment here on this thread: RE: we're respondible for our own hands, etc. We are also responsable for only our own safety, and our own pocketbooks (or table trays, think of it as such) - to extend it much further out?
While your robbery analogy may work specifically for you (when you're playing, you're still an off-duty worker/operator of sorts), it's more appropriate to place the rest of us as a customer in the store that's being robbed. Is it our duty to intervene? Sure, a Good Samaritan is appreciated. But, such a person goes out of his way and accepts risk to himself and everyone around him for no personal gain.
I'll say this much. I know what I do is not in the black and white spirit of the game and I know I'm taking advantage of other people being human and making mistakes and I know it's "wrong." And I'm OK with that. I expect no sympathy or remorse from the casino if a player sets his hand wrong. So, while we may have different values or ethics, I consider mine fairly applied.
Quote: PerpetualNewbieWhile your robbery analogy may work specifically for you (when you're playing, you're still an off-duty worker/operator of sorts), it's more appropriate to place the rest of us as a customer in the store that's being robbed. Is it our duty to intervene? Sure, a Good Samaritan is appreciated. But, such a person goes out of his way and accepts risk to himself and everyone around him for no personal gain.
Good analogy.
Most private citizens are not trained to fight off an armed robber, and most times would amke matters worse by even trying to. So, unless you know how to confront an armed and hostile subject with a reasonabel probability of coming out of it alive, your civic duty is to try to get help from the police. If I were in a store being robbed, I'd try to hide and would call 911. If I had a gun on me, I might try something else. But I wouldn't go unarmed against an armed robber; that's suicidal.
Quote: Nareed
Good analogy.
Most private citizens are not trained to fight off an armed robber, and most times would amke matters worse by even trying to. So, unless you know how to confront an armed and hostile subject with a reasonabel probability of coming out of it alive, your civic duty is to try to get help from the police. If I were in a store being robbed, I'd try to hide and would call 911. If I had a gun on me, I might try something else. But I wouldn't go unarmed against an armed robber; that's suicidal.
Psst. This line of argument doesn't help you (or any of us on this side of the fence) :)
Following your logic backwards, you'd be claiming to not know how to correct an errant dealer. By definition, if you know enough to know he made a mistake, you know how to fix it. :)
Quote: kpHow often have you seen a floorman tell a player they missed a straight/flush and to reset the hand, and then pay them if they win?
A lot, - and I am damn proud of them. I would give a floorman some major shit if I ever see the house cheat a player - I'd call Gaming control myself as a dealer!
And no, casino pit crews don't own the money that's won or lost - they just try to run the games cleanly and correctly as referees and with disinterest, in spite of accusations of interest.
And always, when asked, I show them (Pai Gow Players) the best way to play out a hand, as a Pai Gow game designer and a serious pai gow player - even better than the "standard" house way, which is often weak. I too was advised about "coaching" players as per providing "best play" at times, as the recommended play is to use the SAME house way - player versus house - when asked. I obeyed, and sometimes cringe as to how hands are set at local joints here in Las Vegas. Go to a California Card Room, and you'll see some expert play.
Quote: kpWhen I'm playing a game of skill against someone else, I will not help them win, as I think that would be unfair to me. I also will not do anything unfair to try and make them lose. It's a contest and both sides should play to the best of their ability.
This is far different than trying to rob a 7-11.
Never said that. I said seeing and witnessing a wrong doing that you know better on - and remaining totally silent was the problem - whether for the house or for the player. I never said committing a crime or malfeasance - I said remaining silent in order to LET IT Happen in YOUR (or your "side's") favor, and crying murder if a mistake was the other way.
Quote: kpBTW, I also believe that the casino does their best to distract and impair the player in order to give the casino an unfair advantage.
Total crock, absolute crock. Casino dealers and floormen have no interest or cut of the casino owner's profit, and also have less love for their casino management than they do their players, for the most part, aside from a handful of really rude and cheating dice players, who we keep in line.
Referees care about neither side. We do notice where the noise is coming from as we try to provide (really do indeed) a fair gaming experience.
People get uptight with their money on the line, or have a losing streak, and cry foul on a loss.
Casino workers are enamored by neither their management or their players equally, and have no interest in casino income below the level of the casino owner.
Again, we are all just referees trying to operate the games - and catching flak from all sides.
Quote: PerpetualNewbieWhile your robbery analogy may work specifically for you (when you're playing, you're still an off-duty worker/operator of sorts), it's more appropriate to place the rest of us as a customer in the store that's being robbed. Is it our duty to intervene? Sure, a Good Samaritan is appreciated. But, such a person goes out of his way and accepts risk to himself and everyone around him for no personal gain.
Would it be out of your way to call 911, and willing to be a witness on a real crime? (Look up Kitty Genovese.)
In a casino environment, what real danger is there in saying "Dealer - you ARE showing your hole card," -- or -- "you do have a flush," - even if you stepped away from the table to talk to a floorman away from the action at hand?
Seeing the action - and knowing the rules as well as right action to take -(even in a safe environment) - is hard for too many people to carry out with their money - or even the money of their so-called "side" - like there is a side under the fair rules of a game with money on the line.
- does the average gambler take any dirty money when it's in his favor, or on his "side's" favor? ("Dealer mistake makes it mine!" or "Dealer didn't notice this free-play coupon is expired. I'll give it a shot ANYWAY...") See it day in and day out...
- does the average gambler cry a very loud foul - if the mistake happens to be against him?
- does the average gambler say anything if he sees another player cheat and get away with it?, AND
- does the average gambler say anything if the house were to cheat, - and he knows it?
I believe in a level playing field with up-front rules of play - with money on the line.
There's the rules, there's what what we do indeed see, - and then there's inaction, UNLESS it is in our favor to speak.
Dealt for years. The average casino dealer processes a thousand times more in cash transactions in a shift per each deal, than an average bank teller does in a month.
Quote: PaigowdanQuote: kpBTW, I also believe that the casino does their best to distract and impair the player in order to give the casino an unfair advantage.
Total crock, absolute crock. Casino dealers and floormen have no interest or cut of the casino owner's profit, and also have less love for their casino management than they do their players, for the most part, aside from a handful of really rude and cheating dice players, who we keep in line.
I said "casino" as in owners/management. I agree that the dealers/floormen are more referees except in rare cases when someone has a grudge one way or the other.
Quote: PaigowdanA lot, - and I am damn proud of them.Quote: kpHow often have you seen a floorman tell a player they missed a straight/flush and to reset the hand, and then pay them if they win?
I have never in all my years of playing Pai-Gow seen a floorman reset a losing/pushing player's hand to a better way and then pay them for a win. Has anyone else ever seen this? I have seen where a fouled hand that set correctly would have won/pushed will instead get a push and a warning that next time you lose. I want to play at your casino where you get to reset your hand after the dealer sets their hand.
Quote: kpI have never in all my years of playing Pai-Gow seen a floorman reset a losing/pushing player's hand to a better way and then pay them for a win. Has anyone else ever seen this?
I saw this on my trip to Vegas a few weeks ago. I was playing with my friends, who were Vegas rookies. One of 'em set their hand like a king-high pai gow. When the dealer turned it over, we all realized he really had a straight plus a pair. The dealer called over the floorman, and they reset his hand and paid his winner. The king-high would've been a loser.
I was kind of amazed.
There are processes within every business to handle all of these things. So long as nobody's getting hurt, I'm not going to intervene. The loss of cash and/or product is insured. Cashiers are specifically instructed to give it away if someone tries to rob them. The company already pays for the insurance. Let them use it. Being a hero only has two outcomes: (A) You save the day and save someone else some amount of money (B) you involve yourself in a situation, potentially escalating it and causing a greater amount of harm to all parties involved.
I analyze the situation, determine what the best course of action for me to take is and then I take it. It's selfish, it's one-sided and it's not always nice, proper or polite.
Quote: Paigowdan
Seeing the action - and knowing the rules as well as right[/baction to take -(even in a safe environment) - is hard for too many people to carry out with their money - or even the money of their so-called "side" - like there is a side under the fair rules of a game.
You're objectively assigning a value to an action based on your own morality and code of ethics. The 'rules' of life that I play by are different. That's all this disagreement and conversation is. You're not going to agree with me and you're certainly not going to convince me to adopt your point of view. You're welcome to stand on your pedestal and convince yourself that your way is better. Socially, it probably is.
Quote: kpI have never in all my years of playing Pai-Gow seen a floorman reset a losing/pushing player's hand to a better way and then pay them for a win. Has anyone else ever seen this? I have seen where a fouled hand that set correctly would have won/pushed will instead get a push and a warning that next time you lose. I want to play at your casino where you get to reset your hand after the dealer sets their hand.
Again, I see it all the time:
1. When tapping a dealer out, I have noticed that the dealer had paid a full house hand only 3:1 on the Fortune bonus bet, noticing only the player's three-of-a-kind on the five-card side after splitting the hand. I tell the dealer - "She has a full house - she gets paid 5:1, not 3:1, you owe her an additinal $10, $25, not $15." Dealer notices it, carries it out while she is processing the hand during the take-and-pay. NO one notices, - but the house could have gotten away with a whole extra ten bucks...why? We don't.
2. Boxman on a dice game says to a base dealer - "Player had a Horn-High 12 in action, not a Horn-High-Yo (11), - and 12 was rolled. PAY the player $57, not $11" - and the dealer carries that out, paying out an additional $46, as the floor crew was taking care of the players all along to make sure they all get their proper payment. NO player ever makes a mental note of this either, except to think "They were trying to CHEAT ME from the get-go - AHAH!" when a honest mistake was made - and immediately corrected by staff in the player's fair favor, and by the house itself.
3. We routinely reset fouled Pai Gow hands for the push/tie - instead of declaring a player's loss. Player makes an honest mistake. Always routine - as the hand would have pushed as dealt anyway! Player says, "I mean to set it as xx/xxxx instead of yy/yyyy, - I was tired/been playing for hours/came in on a Red-eye flight/what have you/whatever." We look at the hand, we see it for what it was, honest mistake, no problem.
4. The Fiesta Henderson Casino is located at 777 West Lake Meade Parkway, Henderson, Nevada.
5. The Cannery Casino is located on Boulder Highway at Harmon Avenue, Las Vegas/ Nevada.
6. Sam's Town Casino is located at Boulder Highway/Nellis and Flamingo Road.
7. Sunset Station Casino is located on Sunset Road and Stephanie, Henderson, NV
Quote: PerpetualNewbieYou're objectively assigning a value to an action based on your own morality and code of ethics.
No - I'm saying the hand plays as it is properly dealt - including if a mistake or a cheating action was caught in play and addressed.
Quote: PereptualNewbieThe 'rules' of life that I play by are different.
No argument here, by far.
Quote: Paigowdan
I believe in a level playing field with up-front rules of play - with money on the line.
I believe that level playing field is created by each side defending and supporting his or her position. That if we all do our parts (and this goes back to the - "We're all responsible for our own hands" quip) the environment will naturally level itself.
And one more edit..
Quote: Paigowdan
3. We routinely reset fouled Pai Gow hands for the push/tie - instead of declaring a player's loss. Player makes an honest mistake. Always routine - as the hand would have pushed as dealt anyway! Player says, "I mean to set it as xx/xxxx instead of yy/yyyy, - I was tired/been playing for hours/came in on a Red-eye flight/what have you/whatever." We look at the hand, we see it for what it was, honest mistake, no problem.
I have seen houses do this. I've seen some that don't. What I've never, ever seen is a casino re-set {J7|55742} (My wife, bless her soul, has done this at least a half dozen times through what I can only call pure inattention) Casinos know damned well how that hand is intended to be set and the response (from both dealer and floor) is always, "Well, it's a legitimate setting, there's nothing we can do *shrug*"
And one more anecdote in the other direction - I was playing at the ElCo in February and I split up a pair of aces to make two A-high hands {AT|AJ245}. House had two pair, split, I lost the hand. The dealer calls the floor and the floor assumed I didn't know what I was doing and tried to reset the hand. It took me a solid 3 minutes of discussing with her that I had done this on purpose and didn't want the bet back. She insisted on it. So.. not really knowing what to do, I toked the entire bet. I acted in good faith. I lost. I moved on. I might live life aggressively, but I like to think I do it fairly.
1. If a mistake is caught and corrected, - as the hand would have indeed played - that is carried out.
2. You don't want to get away with a money from a mistake or from any malfeasance. You want to win it from best strategy play and from honest play. You should not want it otherwise. This is a sticking point.
Quote: PaigowdanWe're gambling here, and the established rules of play are known going in.
1. If a mistake is caught and corrected, - as the hand would have indeed played - that is carried out.
2. You don't want to get away with a money from a mistake or from any malfeasance. You want to win it from best strategy play and from honest play. You should not want it otherwise. This is a sticking point.
1. I can't speak for anyone else. But I agree with this. The house has multiple layers of protection for it's hand and if the floor catches a hand mis-set, it is (usually) in the house's favor to set it correctly.
2. You may want money that way. Some of us will take it anyway we get it. Again, you're projecting your ethics on the rest of us.
And - for the record - I'm not advocating that you shouldn't say anything. I'm advocating that you simply don't have to... There's no onus upon you to do so. If you choose to do, that's your business.
Jeez, we're going to take over the post count champs at this rate :)
Quote: PerpertualNewbie...Some of us will take it anyway we get it
Situational or "relative" ethics - especially when applied to gambling = not playing by the rules, but by playing by my rules, "as I see fit."
Quote: PerpertualNewbieJeez, we're going to take over the post count champs at this rate :)
Not a chance. DJ Dave has got us beat forever... :)
