ntaylor96
ntaylor96
Joined: Jan 4, 2023
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January 4th, 2023 at 12:52:22 PM permalink
Hello,
I have a question if anyone knows regarding a 3-card poker game that my local card room offers. It has normal rules for everything, except the dealer shows the player one of their 3 cards before the player decides to play or fold. I saw a few places where usually when this is the variation, the cardroom might take a 5% fee, and if the dealer does not qualify, if you play the hand, you still need to beat the dealer's hand. This isn't the case here as I played and made sure. At this cardroom, they show a card, and if you play, and they don't qualify, you automatically win your ante bet still. I am shocked that this could actually be a positive player-edge game. But I know there's no way they would offer it if it was. Can someone tell me if this is actually a positive player edge game? 5$ mins, everything else is the same as normal 3-card poker except they literally show you a card, take no fee, and you win your ante if the dealer doesn't qualify. Also, what would the strategy be? If the dealer is showing anything worse than a queen, wouldn't I automatically play, hoping they dont qualify?
Last edited by: ntaylor96 on Jan 4, 2023
ksdjdj
ksdjdj
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ntaylor96
January 4th, 2023 at 1:00:39 PM permalink
If you are 100% sure all the other rules / payouts are the same as "regular 3 card" then this >>> link <<< may help.
ntaylor96
ntaylor96
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ksdjdj
January 4th, 2023 at 1:03:36 PM permalink
Hey, yeah I saw that. The article says that this would in fact be a player-advantage game. Which I just could not believe they would have in there if that was the case. But yeah, every other rule is the same. I played last night.
ksdjdj
ksdjdj
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January 4th, 2023 at 1:41:49 PM permalink
I don't know what the card-rooms' limits are, but I would probably play "table max" or " ~ 1/300 x my bank-roll " on the Ante (whichever is less).

Note: "1/300 x bank-roll", has a slightly worse than 1/1000 Risk of Ruin estimate (according to the link here ).

Also Note: The figures I used were 0.0348 for the "Advantage", and 1.74 for the "Standard deviation ", so you may need to check to see if those figures are correct for the pay-table you are using.

----
Extra info:
. I would hit it hard, because it is almost certain that other APs will work out the play (or may already be playing it).
. Other people may say to play it "slow and steady".
. Up to you which way you want to play, but it should mainly be based on whether you think the play will last long or not*** (?)
***: I am in the camp that would think along the lines of "no, it probably won't last long" (hence why I would "hit it hard").
TigerWu
TigerWu
Joined: May 23, 2016
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January 4th, 2023 at 1:51:32 PM permalink
Quote: ntaylor96

Hey, yeah I saw that. The article says that this would in fact be a player-advantage game. Which I just could not believe they would have in there if that was the case. But yeah, every other rule is the same. I played last night.
link to original post



They wouldn't have a player advantage game like that in a casino.... there is something you're missing, like a slightly changed rule or payout.
ksdjdj
ksdjdj
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TigerWu
January 4th, 2023 at 1:55:37 PM permalink
Quote: TigerWu

Quote: ntaylor96

Hey, yeah I saw that. The article says that this would in fact be a player-advantage game. Which I just could not believe they would have in there if that was the case. But yeah, every other rule is the same. I played last night.
link to original post



They wouldn't have a player advantage game like that in a casino.... there is something you're missing, like a slightly changed rule or payout.
link to original post


The OP could take a screen-shot of the game rules and/or table and then post it here, as that may help (if the OP wants' to and is allowed to do so at that card-room?).
ntaylor96
ntaylor96
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January 4th, 2023 at 2:15:57 PM permalink
The payouts for the pair plus are pretty standard. 1-1 for a pair, 3-1 flush, 6-1 straight-, 30-1 3 of a kind, 40-1 on straight flush. But for the standard play. I bet 5$ on the ante and its normal 1-1 payouts for that. I put 5$ more out there and played 2-7-10 because the dealer was showing a Jack. I got paid 5$ for my ante bet because she did not qualify. Even though my hand was weaker. I am just trying to figure out how this could be. Or I will be there every weekend haah.
gordonm888
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gordonm888
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January 4th, 2023 at 3:38:00 PM permalink
Maybe the WOV forum could rent a hotel room in Sacramento for a few weeks that we all could use.? I'd be willing to sleep on the floor or couch if need be.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
TigerWu
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Runlikegod777
Runlikegod777
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teliot
January 5th, 2023 at 3:20:29 AM permalink
this game is a 1.8 percent house edge and is found all in California. the edge shifts from the player to teh house because you don't receive any ante bonuses


https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/31509-does-the-player-have-the-edge-in-three-card-poker-with-the-following-rules/2/
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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January 5th, 2023 at 6:47:42 AM permalink
Quote: Runlikegod777

this game is a 1.8 percent house edge and is found all in California. the edge shifts from the player to teh house because you don't receive any ante bonuses


https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/questions-and-answers/gambling/31509-does-the-player-have-the-edge-in-three-card-poker-with-the-following-rules/2/
link to original post



Thank you. Not knowing how it is dealtÖ. Is it possible to ever see one of the two remaining down cards? If so, that would make it quite a player advantage.
ThisIsMyJam
ThisIsMyJam
Joined: Oct 22, 2019
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Thanks for this post from:
ntaylor96
January 5th, 2023 at 11:21:01 AM permalink
Quote: ntaylor96

Hello,
I have a question if anyone knows regarding a 3-card poker game that my local card room offers. It has normal rules for everything, except the dealer shows the player one of their 3 cards before the player decides to play or fold. I saw a few places where usually when this is the variation, the cardroom might take a 5% fee, and if the dealer does not qualify, if you play the hand, you still need to beat the dealer's hand. This isn't the case here as I played and made sure. At this cardroom, they show a card, and if you play, and they don't qualify, you automatically win your ante bet still. I am shocked that this could actually be a positive player-edge game. But I know there's no way they would offer it if it was. Can someone tell me if this is actually a positive player edge game? 5$ mins, everything else is the same as normal 3-card poker except they literally show you a card, take no fee, and you win your ante if the dealer doesn't qualify. Also, what would the strategy be? If the dealer is showing anything worse than a queen, wouldn't I automatically play, hoping they dont qualify?
link to original post



My Northern California card room also doesn't take a rake from the player, shows one card, and pays the ante when the dealer doesn't qualify. Pair Plus pays the same as a standard table however they don't have an ante bonus payout. Is it possible you overlooked the exclusion of that?
calwatch
calwatch
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January 6th, 2023 at 2:17:26 AM permalink
Remember all California card room rules are posted online at https://oag.ca.gov/gambling/cardroomlist

Page 25 of https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/pc-lotus.pdf has what appears to be standard rules for Three Card Poker, California style. Remember the "player-dealer" is the corporation who banks as the house does not have an interest in the play (allegedly, casinos like Commerce have been known to bar people who bank too much as the corporation may pay rent to the casino, or as an arrangement so that the corporation can pay their staff a living wage even on tables with no people).
Quote:


Dealing procedures:
1. Immediately prior to the commencement of play and after each round of play has been completed,
the house dealer shall shuffle the cards by use of a shuffle machine so that the cards are randomly
intermixed. Upon completion of the shuffle, the device shall place the deck of cards into stacks of
three.
2. The house dealer shall wait for each player to place their Ante bets as well as any bonus bets. After
each player has had the opportunity to place his/her bonus bet, the house dealer will announce, ďNo
more bets.Ē
a. The house dealer shall deliver the first stack of cards dealt by the shuffler to the player to the left
of the player-dealer position. As the remaining stacks are dealt by the shuffler, the house dealer
shall deliver a stack in turn to each of the other players, including the player-dealer, moving
clockwise around the table. The house dealer shall deliver each stack face-down. The stack
given to the player-dealer shall be delivered face-down after which one card will be turned faceup.
3. After the stacks have been dealt and delivered to each player and the player-dealer, the house dealer
shall unload the remaining cards in the shuffler and place them into the discard rack without exposing
the cards.

Round of Play
1. After the dealing procedures above have been completed, each player shall examine his/ her cards.
2. Each player who wagers in Three Card Poker 6 Card Bonus shall be responsible for his/ her own
hand and no person other than the player or the house dealer may touch the cards of that player.
Each player shall be required to keep his/ her three cards in full view of the house dealer at all times.
3. After examination of the cards, each player who has placed an Ante wager shall have the option to
either make a Play wager in an amount equal to the player's Ante wager or forfeit the Ante wager and
end his or her participation in the round of play with the exception of if a player placed a 6 Card
Bonus wager. The house dealer shall offer this option to each player, starting with the player to the
left of the player-dealer and moving clockwise around the table in order.
a. If a player has placed a Pair Plus wager, but does not make a Play wager, the player shall forfeit
the wager, as well as, the Ante wager.
b. If a player has placed a 6 Card Bonus wager, but does not make a Play wager, the player shall
still be eligible for the 6 Card Bonus payout.
4. After each player has either placed a wager on the table in the Play wager area or forfeited his/ her
wager and hand, the house dealer shall collect all forfeited wagers and associated cards, placing
them in the discard rack.
5. The house dealer shall then reveal the remaining player-dealer's cards and place the cards so as to
form the highest possible ranking hand. The player-dealer must qualify to play with a minimum of
queen-high.
a. If the player-dealer does NOT qualify, the Play wager receives no action. The house dealer shall
immediately refund this bet to players.

b. If the player-dealerís hand did NOT qualify, The Ante wager receives action. If the player did not
fold and their hand ranks higher than the player-dealer hand, the player shall be paid even
money. If the player-dealerís hand ranks higher than the playerís hand, the wager shall be a
push and returned to the player.
c. If the player-dealerís hand qualifies, the house dealer shall immediately stack each playerís Play
wager atop the Ante.
i. If the playerís hand beats the player-dealerís hand, the player wins even money on the Ante
and the Play wagers.
ii. If the player-dealerís hand beats the playerís hand, the player loses both the Ante and the
Play wagers.
d. If the playerís hand and the player-dealerís hand are equal in rank and value, the hand is
considered a tie and the Ante and Play wagers shall push and be returned to the player.
6. The house dealer shall then reveal the three card hand of each active player, starting with the player
to the left of the player-dealer position.
7. All cards collected by the house dealer shall be picked up in order and placed in the discard rack in
such a way that they can be readily arranged to reconstruct each hand in the event of a question or
dispute.
8. The action on payout will always beginning with the player to the left of the player-dealer and
continuing cockwise. Wagers will be settled in the following order from player to player: the Ante
wager, then the Play wager, then the Pair Plus wager (if placed), and then the 6 Card Bonus wager (if
placed). Once the player-dealerís wager has been exhausted, the wagers not covered by the playerdealer will be returned to the players.
9. Player-dealers are never required to cover all opposing playersí wagers. Payoffs of wagers are
limited to the amount of the player-dealer wager. The house shall not participate as a player-dealer.
The house shall not take a percentage of wagers placed in the game. There is no maximum on the
player-dealerís wager.



As you can see, there is no ante bonus. Basically, if the dealer doesn't qualify, you win 3 for 2 (and 1 for 2 if you lose to a non-qualifying dealer), if the dealer qualifies and you have a higher card, you win 2 for 1, if you fold, you get zero.

The Wizard strategy is: https://wizardofodds.com/games/face-up-three-card-poker/
The rake, according to page 31 of the PDF, is between 1-20% per hand, although for an average $25 a hand bet is going to be 2-4% depending on the collection schedule (most of them I've seen are collection schedule 1 as I have never seen half dollars change hands on a card club table). Thus this is positive EV if you bank. So as with most California games, if you can bank, you should do so, until they throw you out.

It actually doesn't seem like too bad a game, here is Kelly Koffler of Beyond Blackjack playing:


This looks like a Schedule 2 game, where the player pays $1 and the player-dealer pays $2. https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/larry-flynts-lucky-lady.pdf
Last edited by: calwatch on Jan 6, 2023
ThisIsMyJam
ThisIsMyJam
Joined: Oct 22, 2019
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 85
January 6th, 2023 at 10:53:12 AM permalink
Quote: calwatch

Remember all California card room rules are posted online at https://oag.ca.gov/gambling/cardroomlist

Page 25 of https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/pc-lotus.pdf has what appears to be standard rules for Three Card Poker, California style. Remember the "player-dealer" is the corporation who banks as the house does not have an interest in the play (allegedly, casinos like Commerce have been known to bar people who bank too much as the corporation may pay rent to the casino, or as an arrangement so that the corporation can pay their staff a living wage even on tables with no people).

Quote:


Dealing procedures:
1. Immediately prior to the commencement of play and after each round of play has been completed,
the house dealer shall shuffle the cards by use of a shuffle machine so that the cards are randomly
intermixed. Upon completion of the shuffle, the device shall place the deck of cards into stacks of
three.
2. The house dealer shall wait for each player to place their Ante bets as well as any bonus bets. After
each player has had the opportunity to place his/her bonus bet, the house dealer will announce, ďNo
more bets.Ē
a. The house dealer shall deliver the first stack of cards dealt by the shuffler to the player to the left
of the player-dealer position. As the remaining stacks are dealt by the shuffler, the house dealer
shall deliver a stack in turn to each of the other players, including the player-dealer, moving
clockwise around the table. The house dealer shall deliver each stack face-down. The stack
given to the player-dealer shall be delivered face-down after which one card will be turned faceup.
3. After the stacks have been dealt and delivered to each player and the player-dealer, the house dealer
shall unload the remaining cards in the shuffler and place them into the discard rack without exposing
the cards.

Round of Play
1. After the dealing procedures above have been completed, each player shall examine his/ her cards.
2. Each player who wagers in Three Card Poker 6 Card Bonus shall be responsible for his/ her own
hand and no person other than the player or the house dealer may touch the cards of that player.
Each player shall be required to keep his/ her three cards in full view of the house dealer at all times.
3. After examination of the cards, each player who has placed an Ante wager shall have the option to
either make a Play wager in an amount equal to the player's Ante wager or forfeit the Ante wager and
end his or her participation in the round of play with the exception of if a player placed a 6 Card
Bonus wager. The house dealer shall offer this option to each player, starting with the player to the
left of the player-dealer and moving clockwise around the table in order.
a. If a player has placed a Pair Plus wager, but does not make a Play wager, the player shall forfeit
the wager, as well as, the Ante wager.
b. If a player has placed a 6 Card Bonus wager, but does not make a Play wager, the player shall
still be eligible for the 6 Card Bonus payout.
4. After each player has either placed a wager on the table in the Play wager area or forfeited his/ her
wager and hand, the house dealer shall collect all forfeited wagers and associated cards, placing
them in the discard rack.
5. The house dealer shall then reveal the remaining player-dealer's cards and place the cards so as to
form the highest possible ranking hand. The player-dealer must qualify to play with a minimum of
queen-high.
a. If the player-dealer does NOT qualify, the Play wager receives no action. The house dealer shall
immediately refund this bet to players.

b. If the player-dealerís hand did NOT qualify, The Ante wager receives action. If the player did not
fold and their hand ranks higher than the player-dealer hand, the player shall be paid even
money. If the player-dealerís hand ranks higher than the playerís hand, the wager shall be a
push and returned to the player.
c. If the player-dealerís hand qualifies, the house dealer shall immediately stack each playerís Play
wager atop the Ante.
i. If the playerís hand beats the player-dealerís hand, the player wins even money on the Ante
and the Play wagers.
ii. If the player-dealerís hand beats the playerís hand, the player loses both the Ante and the
Play wagers.
d. If the playerís hand and the player-dealerís hand are equal in rank and value, the hand is
considered a tie and the Ante and Play wagers shall push and be returned to the player.
6. The house dealer shall then reveal the three card hand of each active player, starting with the player
to the left of the player-dealer position.
7. All cards collected by the house dealer shall be picked up in order and placed in the discard rack in
such a way that they can be readily arranged to reconstruct each hand in the event of a question or
dispute.
8. The action on payout will always beginning with the player to the left of the player-dealer and
continuing cockwise. Wagers will be settled in the following order from player to player: the Ante
wager, then the Play wager, then the Pair Plus wager (if placed), and then the 6 Card Bonus wager (if
placed). Once the player-dealerís wager has been exhausted, the wagers not covered by the playerdealer will be returned to the players.
9. Player-dealers are never required to cover all opposing playersí wagers. Payoffs of wagers are
limited to the amount of the player-dealer wager. The house shall not participate as a player-dealer.
The house shall not take a percentage of wagers placed in the game. There is no maximum on the
player-dealerís wager.



As you can see, there is no ante bonus. Basically, if the dealer doesn't qualify, you win 3 for 2 (and 1 for 2 if you lose to a non-qualifying dealer), if the dealer qualifies and you have a higher card, you win 2 for 1, if you fold, you get zero.

The Wizard strategy is: https://wizardofodds.com/games/face-up-three-card-poker/
The rake, according to page 31 of the PDF, is between 1-20% per hand, although for an average $25 a hand bet is going to be 2-4% depending on the collection schedule (most of them I've seen are collection schedule 1 as I have never seen half dollars change hands on a card club table). Thus this is positive EV if you bank. So as with most California games, if you can bank, you should do so, until they throw you out.

It actually doesn't seem like too bad a game, here is Kelly Koffler of Beyond Blackjack playing:


This looks like a Schedule 2 game, where the player pays $1 and the player-dealer pays $2. https://oag.ca.gov/system/files/media/larry-flynts-lucky-lady.pdf
link to original post



I never noticed Kelly post or mention that she was compensated by Larry Flynt's for her play but she must have been otherwise there was no reason to go to a card room where the player must pay the rake.
ntaylor96
ntaylor96
Joined: Jan 4, 2023
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 6
January 6th, 2023 at 2:10:17 PM permalink
Hey there!

Yep, that is it, I went over to check again, and there are no ante bonuses. Explains it. Still a great house edge though!
calwatch
calwatch
Joined: Feb 7, 2010
  • Threads: 10
  • Posts: 207
January 6th, 2023 at 3:07:09 PM permalink
Quote: ThisIsMyJam


I never noticed Kelly post or mention that she was compensated by Larry Flynt's for her play but she must have been otherwise there was no reason to go to a card room where the player must pay the rake.
link to original post



A lot of slot machine and video poker YouTube play bad games, some are independently wealthy. The Kofflers play a lot of negative EV games, bet the bonuses and high house edge progressives, etc. If there is compensation it would just be free travel and maybe a room, this video got very few views relative to their others. In no means do I think the Kofflers, Slotmassacre (Andrew Bagulay), Bigkats Poker (Jeremy Kittle), Matt Bourie, etc. are consistently profitable. They hope for some of the Youtube revenue to be returned to them but they are gambling their inheritances, incomes from day jobs, or past business profits away for entertainment and for us to watch. "We gamble so you don't have to."
ThisIsMyJam
ThisIsMyJam
Joined: Oct 22, 2019
  • Threads: 0
  • Posts: 85
January 6th, 2023 at 4:24:21 PM permalink
Quote: calwatch

Quote: ThisIsMyJam


I never noticed Kelly post or mention that she was compensated by Larry Flynt's for her play but she must have been otherwise there was no reason to go to a card room where the player must pay the rake.
link to original post



A lot of slot machine and video poker YouTube play bad games, some are independently wealthy. The Kofflers play a lot of negative EV games, bet the bonuses and high house edge progressives, etc. If there is compensation it would just be free travel and maybe a room, this video got very few views relative to their others. In no means do I think the Kofflers, Slotmassacre (Andrew Bagulay), Bigkats Poker (Jeremy Kittle), Matt Bourie, etc. are consistently profitable. They hope for some of the Youtube revenue to be returned to them but they are gambling their inheritances, incomes from day jobs, or past business profits away for entertainment and for us to watch. "We gamble so you don't have to."
link to original post



She is not a high roller. Given she flew in for a single night, filmed the entire day, then left I think it's a safe bet she was there as a guest of the casino.

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