AP: At What Cost?
Quote: tuttigymQuote: darkoz1) I don't consider it a pyramid scheme. It was taking advantage of how the system for offers worked in NYS.
Perhaps a poor choice of word description. I did say legal, though, and combining offers through multi-carding does create a $$$ "pile."Quote: darkoz2). I don't do Vegas so I am not the one to answer. I have had or currently have similar operations in Atlantic City, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Mississippi and Florida.
However those don't involve vouchers for freeplay so the precise methods are different. But having my team hit casinos for large sums of Freeplay is good in quite a few locales.
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I find that remarkable. Here is what puzzles me: The casino business is quite saturated, I believe, so that the costs of customer acquisition is not cheap. In order to lure and retain patrons, casinos give offers but only to players and customers who have been or are currently "active." That "activity" begets offers commensurate with their play, i.e., "cost." Is that still true? If so, how does one deal with those costs (play) and, using an example of $100 free play, how much might that "cost" be?
Are the casinos so unsophisticated that they just allow the multi-carding play without challenging crew members somehow?
tuttigym
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Most operations exploit new card signup promos, so you need to churn thru new signups. Forget thinking about existing customers.
Churn and burn.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymMr.billryan: In a previous post you stated that you did not know for sure about such operations in Vegas which says to me that you are guessing. So, how would "most operations" even find out or know about the new card signups? They would have to have access to casino marketing operations, mailing lists, or other in-house criteria. Again, thanks for the input, but I believe you are just guessing.
tuttigym
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Hunting sign up bonuses with new members is a chump change operation. It doesn't take an AP to realize that. The average signup bonus is $10 Freeplay. So if you are convincing someone to travel to the casino to sign up and hand you their card, how much are you paying (at that point it's more of a tip) to perform that service?
Really, anyone who suggest what I do is bring new people down for sign up bonuses has a very bad imagination (and yes I mean imagination).
To answer your questions in the earlier post, there is a cost to my getting freeplay. Personally I don't feel I receive freeplay at all. I receive payplay because EVERY penny of Freeplay is handed to me based on what I paid for it previously.
Furthermore I have through the years mentioned that casinos often renege on offers. Again, anyone who suggests my play is for sign up bonuses hasn't given any real thought to what I do. Reneging on sign-ups? Reneging on new members offers before any shenanigans can even be detected. Again, a lot of posters on this forum either aren't reading or aren't paying attention to my years and years of writing on here.
When the casino cancels or pin locks or reneges on offers I can be actually at a loss. I need to recoup my investment. The "cost".
I believe your second question was what to do when the offers dry up naturally. I mean, that's should be obvious. I used a bunch of players cards for offers. The offers are now dried out. So ergo, get some new patrons to go get new cards and start the cycle all over again.
Usually someone who got me a card sends down his wife now. Next his adult kids. And what about him? Is he finished? No, of course not, now I send him to the next casino where he gets a new card there as well. In this manner my crew kinda travels up and down the East Coast.
But I try to keep it somewhat regional. I hit Florida and Mississippi only for a short time because the airfare to send my regulars was an added expense that cut into my bottom line. Florida looked better than it did because I had family down there which I was going to use as regional team members but it was my unreliable family that caused me to pull out not any action by the casinos.
As you can see if I am paying for airfare to send my crew to get cards, it's ridiculous to suggest it's for new members sign-ups.
You make it sound like it is such a sophisticated operation. You sign up for cards, put a lot of play on them the first time you use it, sit back and collect the free play bonuses for as long as the marketing department sends them out. The weakest chink in the chain is getting new people to sign up. I know how to do that in Vegas, and I'm sure it is no harder in AC or anywhere else. It's the weakest form of AP I know and most people who do it have far better tricks up their sleeves.
It is just a matter of learning what the promos offer. It might be you get 5X more cashback for $30,000 than 10,000 or it might be the same thing. You make adjustments when you start getting the mailings. with a little work, you know exactly what you can expect in terms of offerings and you pursue the best ones and leave the others until you burn out the best.
It's an old trick that anyone can do. Many do.
Suppose you are a regular at South Point. Each month you give them $30,000 coin-in and get $10 a week in free play. One month you only give them $10,000 coin in but you still get $10 a week in free play the next mailing.
A light goes off in your head. If I put $10,000 on my card, I'll get the $10 I get now, but if I get two more cards and play on them, I'll get $10 on all three cards. $30 instead of $10, without increasing my coin-in. Thus is born a multi-carder.
Some people take it to extremes. I know a taxi driver who will give you a free ride from the airport to the casino if you sign up for cards for him. I know another who cruises UNLV offering $50-$100 for people to sign up and give him the cards.
I've seen sign-up promos where putting $3,000 coin-in on Day One will get you $75 in free play twice a week for eight weeks. You do the math. I was told of a promo that offered $500 a week for an extended period, all for $10,000 coin-in on Day 1.
Some of the promos are short term but others last for years, especially the outer casinos like M or on Boulder Highway.
Some people possess the skills to beat the casino games, but anyone with half a brain and ill intent can beat the marketing department.
Quote: tuttigymMr.billryan: In a previous post you stated that you did not know for sure about such operations in Vegas which says to me that you are guessing. So, how would "most operations" even find out or know about the new card signups? They would have to have access to casino marketing operations, mailing lists, or other in-house criteria. Again, thanks for the input, but I believe you are just guessing.
tuttigym
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I didn't say that at all, but that's quite okay. I've no interest in teaching an old dog any new tricks.
"Most operations exploit new card signup promos, so you need to churn thru new signups. Forget thinking about existing customers.
Churn and burn."
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Okay, firstly, you once again (you do this often) mistate what you mean.
"Exploit new card signup promos" clearly describes new member offers.
Oh, you mean, exploiting new members with actual gambling performed on the cards? So not exploiting new member promos but actually doing ADT. Sorry if you speak a foreign language.
As to your misinformation that the cards must be new members or that the cards are burned out but again, you show such a lack of finesse at understanding what I do, it's difficult to appreciate when you make ridiculous statements like it's the weakest form of AP.
I don't even understand what"weakest" means in your definition. I define "weak" by my profit margin, not skill per se anyway. You seem to make a very newbie mistake. When trying to find something of value, don't try to make it as difficult as possible. Try to make it as simple as possible.
A play that has a fabulous return and profitability is "weak" in your definition because it's simple to do?
I also question just how simple what I do is when you get what I do so grossly wrong. The fact you believe you need new people shows how little you actually understand about what I do.
Quote: billryanQuote: tuttigymMr.billryan: In a previous post you stated that you did not know for sure about such operations in Vegas which says to me that you are guessing. So, how would "most operations" even find out or know about the new card signups? They would have to have access to casino marketing operations, mailing lists, or other in-house criteria. Again, thanks for the input, but I believe you are just guessing.
tuttigym
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I didn't say that at all, but that's quite okay. I've no interest in teaching an old dog any new tricks.
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You posted that you did NOT have any "hard evidence." So, for me, that is guessing about the number of "operations" and/or that they actually exist in large numbers. Oh yes, I am an old, short, fat, dumpy dog.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymMr. Mosca: Thanks for the advice on the slot. I will look for one next trip and play it as directed. I do not know what a "flashing" dealer is, but since I only play the Pair Plus, the hand that the dealer has is of no consequence to me. I cannot lose to the house's cards only to my non-performing hand.
What exactly is AP for 3 Card with the exception of a "flashing" dealer? Again, thank you.
tuttigym
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A flashing dealer exposes one of his cards while dealing. You find them just by paying attention. I won’t go out of my way to find one, but if I find one I’m staying there.
If you only play Pairs Plus, then there is no AP play. I’d suggest looking for the best PP pay table. The most common is 40/30/6/3/1, but some casinos offer 50 or 100 for a mini royal. Play there.
You stated there is a "cost" in getting free play. So, when one of your "crew" gets a card, do you front the $$$ of real play to get the free play? There was a mention of $10,000 of real play to get a small amount of free play which might be extended for several months without further real play. Is that a correct statement? Most slot play is a losing proposition, I believe. So. If one were to coin in $10,000, would the absorbed loss generally be about $500 on average? I am trying to wrap my brain around someone playing slots coining in $10,000 and walking away with $9,500 and then multiplying that event with 50 or more crew members.
You talked about newbies and the sign-up bonus, but those are one time offers which can only be renewed by real coin-in play. Who provides the $$$ for that play and who absorbs the resultant losses from real coin play?
I am now going to try to interpret what might happen next. (1) You receive 50 plus players cards with their pins for casino A. (2) You then travel to casino A. (3) You spend several hours playing on those cards. (4) You cash out and walk away until another batch of cards from casino B arrive for your next foray of play. (5) A trusted crew member might do the same thing at casino C and so on. Is any of that correct?
tuttigym
Quote: MoscaA flashing dealer exposes one of his cards while dealing. You find them just by paying attention. I won’t go out of my way to find one, but if I find one I’m staying there.
If you only play Pairs Plus, then there is no AP play. I’d suggest looking for the best PP pay table. The most common is 40/30/6/3/1, but some casinos offer 50 or 100 for a mini royal. Play there.
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Thank you for educating me. Those are the pay tables where I do play and there is the mini-royal available payout.
What you stated about AP play is important and later on in this thread I will state my basic summary of AP play which might create more conversation.
tuttigym
Using my 4th grade arithmetic, that comes out to $1200 per dayQuote: tuttigym
During an average 4day/three night stay, I put about $3,000 in play with most of it dedicated to table play (craps) and 3 card poker.
Ace2
Quote: Ace2Using my 4th grade arithmetic, that comes out to $1200 per dayQuote: tuttigym
During an average 4day/three night stay, I put about $3,000 in play with most of it dedicated to table play (craps) and 3 card poker.
Ace2
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That is very good. As you can see I am not a high roller and very short of being a "whale." BTW that $1200 per day is not necessarily my money.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymMr.Darkoz: I am not going to show your post. It makes everything discussed too cumbersome.
You stated there is a "cost" in getting free play. So, when one of your "crew" gets a card, do you front the $$$ of real play to get the free play? There was a mention of $10,000 of real play to get a small amount of free play which might be extended for several months without further real play. Is that a correct statement? Most slot play is a losing proposition, I believe. So. If one were to coin in $10,000, would the absorbed loss generally be about $500 on average? I am trying to wrap my brain around someone playing slots coining in $10,000 and walking away with $9,500 and then multiplying that event with 50 or more crew members.
You talked about newbies and the sign-up bonus, but those are one time offers which can only be renewed by real coin-in play. Who provides the $$$ for that play and who absorbs the resultant losses from real coin play?
I am now going to try to interpret what might happen next. (1) You receive 50 plus players cards with their pins for casino A. (2) You then travel to casino A. (3) You spend several hours playing on those cards. (4) You cash out and walk away until another batch of cards from casino B arrive for your next foray of play. (5) A trusted crew member might do the same thing at casino C and so on. Is any of that correct?
tuttigym
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Yes, I front the gambling money and losses.
I recoup my losses with the offers that come in later.
There are tricks to what I do " trade secrets" if you will that enable me to guarantee a profit. I believe Dieter stated it's simple but it's not.
Quote: darkozQuote: tuttigymMr.Darkoz: I am not going to show your post. It makes everything discussed too cumbersome.
You stated there is a "cost" in getting free play. So, when one of your "crew" gets a card, do you front the $$$ of real play to get the free play? There was a mention of $10,000 of real play to get a small amount of free play which might be extended for several months without further real play. Is that a correct statement? Most slot play is a losing proposition, I believe. So. If one were to coin in $10,000, would the absorbed loss generally be about $500 on average? I am trying to wrap my brain around someone playing slots coining in $10,000 and walking away with $9,500 and then multiplying that event with 50 or more crew members.
You talked about newbies and the sign-up bonus, but those are one time offers which can only be renewed by real coin-in play. Who provides the $$$ for that play and who absorbs the resultant losses from real coin play?
I am now going to try to interpret what might happen next. (1) You receive 50 plus players cards with their pins for casino A. (2) You then travel to casino A. (3) You spend several hours playing on those cards. (4) You cash out and walk away until another batch of cards from casino B arrive for your next foray of play. (5) A trusted crew member might do the same thing at casino C and so on. Is any of that correct?
tuttigym
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Yes, I front the gambling money and losses.
I recoup my losses with the offers that come in later.
There are tricks to what I do " trade secrets" if you will that enable me to guarantee a profit. I believe Dieter stated it's simple but it's not.
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So is most of the rest of the above summary correct too?
I got to say you have some very large "stones" to front and work the operation you have described. For me, it is impressive.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigym
Thank you for educating me. Those are the pay tables where I do play and there is the mini-royal available payout.
What you stated about AP play is important and later on in this thread I will state my basic summary of AP play which might create more conversation.
tuttigym
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I don’t know where you live and play. Borgata in AC offers 100 for the mini royal. I think all Caesar’s casinos pay 50 for the mini royal. 50 for a mini lowers the house edge from 7.28% to 7.1% Idk what the 100 does, WoO doesn’t list that table and I don’t care about figuring it out. But, there’s only four of them, so it can’t be that much, 4/22100.
You can start with a few members and grow as they recruit.
I really don't know why people want to make this more complicated than it is. There is nothing original or particularly noteworthy about it.
I think the hardest part is keeping it quiet so you don't get robbed. That seems to be a real occupational hazard for any AP, let alone those who brag about it on public websites.
Quote: darkoz
Yes, I front the gambling money and losses.
I recoup my losses with the offers that come in later.
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Quote: darkoz
To answer your questions in the earlier post, there is a cost to my getting freeplay. Personally I don't feel I receive freeplay at all. I receive payplay because EVERY penny of Freeplay is handed to me based on what I paid for it previously.
I believe your second question was what to do when the offers dry up naturally. I mean, that's should be obvious. I used a bunch of players cards for offers. The offers are now dried out. So ergo, get some new patrons to go get new cards and start the cycle all over again.
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Finally. A straight answer. You couldn't have said this before?
Quote: billryanYou do realize you can recycle the same $10,000 fifty times, you do not need fifty $10,000 bankrolls.
You can start with a few members and grow as they recruit.
I really don't know why people want to make this more complicated than it is. There is nothing original or particularly noteworthy about it.
I think the hardest part is keeping it quiet so you don't get robbed. That seems to be a real occupational hazard for any AP, let alone those who brag about it on public websites.
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And yet probably only 1% of gamblers, if that much even understands or knows how to do what I do.
I know you don't fully understand what I do from your responses.
Pretty much what you are doing is like saying to a NASCAR race car driver that what he does isn't special because lots of people know how to drive cars fast.
Quote: tuttigymQuote: billryanQuote: tuttigymMr.billryan: In a previous post you stated that you did not know for sure about such operations in Vegas which says to me that you are guessing. So, how would "most operations" even find out or know about the new card signups? They would have to have access to casino marketing operations, mailing lists, or other in-house criteria. Again, thanks for the input, but I believe you are just guessing.
tuttigym
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I didn't say that at all, but that's quite okay. I've no interest in teaching an old dog any new tricks.
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You posted that you did NOT have any "hard evidence." So, for me, that is guessing about the number of "operations" and/or that they actually exist in large numbers. Oh yes, I am an old, short, fat, dumpy dog.
tuttigym
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Met this man personally when he was a legend. He is as described!
-vast majority of bets in a casino have a house edge (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambling_mathematics#House_advantage_or_edge).
-this house advantage varies from game to game and can also change based on player decisions.
-when the house advantage decreases below zero and becomes negative, it then becomes an advantage for the player.
-there are lots of ways to do this and I might even hypothesize it can be done on any casino game. Books, movies, websites detail a lot of them. Including wizardofvegas. Here are a few of the most basic:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/891883.Beat_the_Dealer
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/deuces-wild/
https://www.americancasinoguidebook.com/las-vegas-coupons/american-casino-guide-las-vegas-coupons.html
-the monetary loss should be trivial. The player will either play enough with an advantage to ensure earning money; or they won't play enough, in which case the losses won't be much. (I suppose bet size could matter).
-the most significant cost will be the opportunity cost.
-but if someone is going to be in the casino making bets, why would they ever do it in games with a house advantage when they can do it with a player advantage (see links above)?
-ultimately it comes down to little more than "make good bets". I don't really even like the term AP, because the player is never the one to choose what the advantage is on any bet. The casino is the side that decides what the advantage is for every bet they take.
Quote: DRichOkay, I will be the one that bites. What is the cost for an AP who plays machines with a 1% advantage? Are you speaking of financial costs or something else? I used to play a lot with only a 1% advantage and of course I had good days and bad days. I had a personal stop/loss of $10k a day which if I was down $10k I would quit for the day and start again tomorrow. I Really don't understand the costs since over time I won more than I lost. Probably played at least 1500 hours a year on that play for many years.
Thanks Mr.MDawg for helping me.
I am defining "cost" as bankroll used or original investment. A machine that may give a player a 1% "advantage" but where the player can lose a $10,000 "investment in one session of play does not sound like an "advantage" to me. So a follow up to that statement for me is after losing $10k, how long or how many sessions would it take to recoup the total loss shown? If one lost $10k one day, isn't possible to lose again several more times?
I personally find it hard to believe that a player that loses $10k at one time at slots can recover that loss over any period simply because even a 1% AP machine would only allow, on average, a win of $100 in play per session without further losses of play in other sessions. In other words, one would have to play 100 consecutive sessions winning on average $100 per session wagering a bankroll of $10,000 without losing any $$$ for those sessions which would increase the amount necessary to create the overall profit as posted above.
BTW could you tell us which machines give the player a 1% AP?
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigym
I am defining "cost" as bankroll used or original investment. A machine that may give a player a 1% "advantage" but where the player can lose a $10,000 "investment in one session of play does not sound like an "advantage" to me.
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Walking in with $10,000 does not mean losing $10,000.
$10,000 coin in on a 99% RTP machine has an expected loss of $100, give or take ("variance").
If it doesn't sound like a good play to you, don't play that way. Simple as.
If you have an edge at table games you'll win a percentage of your bets.
If you have an edge at machines you are playing for jackpots.
Examoje:
$25 at craps can win a max of 30 to 1 if I bet on the 12 and somehow had an edge to hit the 12 on demand. That's $750. More likely, $25 on a 5 wins $35 if my edge avoids a 7.
$25 at video poker can hit a $20,000 royal flush.
Quote: DieterWalking in with $10,000 does not mean losing $10,000.
$10,000 coin in on a 99% RTP machine has an expected loss of $100, give or take ("variance").
If it doesn't sound like a good play to you, don't play that way. Simple as.
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Mr. Dieter: I read the post presented that he did lose $10k and then walked away only to come back for an untold number of sessions and a lengthy time period to recover and eventually make a profit.
Actually, if I could be sure I would only lose $100 on a $10k investment in a single session of slot play, I would jump at the chance. The comps and points I could rack up at my favorite casino would be off the chart and I would have a hell of a time. Other than video poker, could you suggest or name such machines. Comps and points at video poker are cut by at a third of regular slots.
tuttigym
Quote: DieterWalking in with $10,000 does not mean losing $10,000.
$10,000 coin in does not mean walking in with $10,000
Quote: tuttigymif I could be sure I would only lose $100 on a $10k investment in a single session of slot play,
I would jump at the chance. The comps and points I could rack up at my favorite casino would be off the chart
What casino would $10,000 coin-in generate off the chart comps and points?
That would be a small chart.
Quote: coachbellyQuote: tuttigymif I could be sure I would only lose $100 on a $10k investment in a single session of slot play,
I would jump at the chance. The comps and points I could rack up at my favorite casino would be off the chart
What casino would $10,000 coin-in generate off the chart comps and points?
That would be a small chart.
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A number of casinos in Biloxi, MS. The Island View comes to mind instantly.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymif I could be sure I would only lose $100 on a $10k investment in a single session of slot play,
I would jump at the chance. The comps and points I could rack up at my favorite casino would be off the chart
Quote: coachbellyWhat casino would $10,000 coin-in generate off the chart comps and points?
That would be a small chart.
Quote: tuttigymA number of casinos in Biloxi, MS.
My understanding is that players' clubs in the same market are competitive, and so rewards are very similar.
Harrah's Biloxi publishes the rewards that $10,000 coin-in will generate, and it's not off the chart (unless we're talking about a small chart).
It's not likely that the same play at their neighboring competitor would much better.
Quote: tuttigym
I personally find it hard to believe that a player that loses $10k at one time at slots can recover that loss over any period simply because even a 1% AP machine would only allow, on average, a win of $100 in play per session without further losses of play in other sessions. In other words, one would have to play 100 consecutive sessions winning on average $100 per session wagering a bankroll of $10,000 without losing any $$$ for those sessions which would increase the amount necessary to create the overall profit as posted above.
BTW could you tell us which machines give the player a 1% AP?
tuttigym
In my case recouping from a $10k loss was not a huge problem. Hitting four deuces paid $10k and four deuces with a kicker $20k and a royal flush paid $50k. There was a lot of volatility though. These were $10 denom games (actually $5 10 coin game). The place I was playing even offered a promotion for a while where every taxable handpay earned a $100 bonus. On the game I was playing hitting 2 or 3 per hour was normal. That was an extra $200 or $300 an hour during that promo.
$25 video poker the royal would be $100kQuote: AlanMendelsonThere's a difference between table games and machine games.
If you have an edge at table games you'll win a percentage of your bets.
If you have an edge at machines you are playing for jackpots.
Examoje:
$25 at craps can win a max of 30 to 1 if I bet on the 12 and somehow had an edge to hit the 12 on demand. That's $750. More likely, $25 on a 5 wins $35 if my edge avoids a 7.
$25 at video poker can hit a $20,000 royal flush.
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Quote: Hunterhill$25 video poker the royal would be $100kQuote: AlanMendelsonThere's a difference between table games and machine games.
If you have an edge at table games you'll win a percentage of your bets.
If you have an edge at machines you are playing for jackpots.
Examoje:
$25 at craps can win a max of 30 to 1 if I bet on the 12 and somehow had an edge to hit the 12 on demand. That's $750. More likely, $25 on a 5 wins $35 if my edge avoids a 7.
$25 at video poker can hit a $20,000 royal flush.
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I assume he meant a $25 hand of video poker pays $20,000 ($5x5 coins)
Different casinos have different standards and a good bit of being an AP is to delve into and understand the casino's marketing.
Most APs do battle with the marketing department, not the games themselves.
My regular casino in Henderson had all sorts of specials. One day a week you got $10 cashback for $1,000 coin in. Another day, $15,000 got you a wheel spin that usually paid $5-$15. I hit for $25 once and saw a couple of $100 hits. If you did $30,000 coin-in in ninety days, you got free meals for the next ninety days. Meanwhile, $30,000 coin-in in Harrahs got you next to nothing.
Advantage Players know these things, because studying them is part of what it takes to play with an advantage.
Quote: tuttigymI am defining "cost" as bankroll used or original investment.
We can define a cat as a canine mammal. But that doesn't make it so, nor help with conversation. Bankroll is not a cost in an advantage play. No way!
That reveals that you do not understand advantage plays, even at the most basic level. a 1% advantage is an advantage, The advantage player deals with the variance.Quote:A machine that may give a player a 1% "advantage" but where the player can lose a $10,000 "investment in one session of play does not sound like an "advantage" to me.
If a US roulette table played 72x for any number hit, but you are only allowed to bet one number, would that be an advantage play to you? Note. I anticipate your answer of NO which would further display your lack of understanding.
Quote:tuttigym
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Quote: OnceDear
If a US roulette table played 72x for any number hit, but you are only allowed to bet one number, would that be an advantage play to you?
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PM's are open, pal.
Quote: Hunterhill$25 video poker the royal would be $100kQuote: AlanMendelsonThere's a difference between table games and machine games.
If you have an edge at table games you'll win a percentage of your bets.
If you have an edge at machines you are playing for jackpots.
Examoje:
$25 at craps can win a max of 30 to 1 if I bet on the 12 and somehow had an edge to hit the 12 on demand. That's $750. More likely, $25 on a 5 wins $35 if my edge avoids a 7.
$25 at video poker can hit a $20,000 royal flush.
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$25/coin would be a $125 bet which would be a $100,000 royal.
I was using a $25 bet for comparison. A $25 bet at VP would be five coins at $5/coin which generates a $20,000 rpyal.
I thought everybody understood that. I'm sorry I wasn't clear.
Quote: coachbellyQuote: tuttigymif I could be sure I would only lose $100 on a $10k investment in a single session of slot play,
I would jump at the chance. The comps and points I could rack up at my favorite casino would be off the chartQuote: coachbellyWhat casino would $10,000 coin-in generate off the chart comps and points?
That would be a small chart.Quote: tuttigymA number of casinos in Biloxi, MS.
My understanding is that players' clubs in the same market are competitive, and so rewards are very similar.
Harrah's Biloxi publishes the rewards that $10,000 coin-in will generate, and it's not off the chart (unless we're talking about a small chart).
It's not likely that the same play at their neighboring competitor would much better.
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So you are guessing, right? Looks like an uninformed opinion to me. You need to apologize to someone.
tuttigym
Or say you borrow money to play in the casino. The cost of that loan for the period of time you have it out would in fact be a cost deducted against any winning.
When I play I play with casino credit which costs me nothing, no interest, nothing. But if I were playing with cash, I suppose the cost of the money as opposed to what else I could do with it during the period it is invested in the casino play, would have to be considered, at least when cash is put into a business venture such as buying a property or a business you must consider the value of the money. It is not difficult to calculate the value of money - standard ways to calculate what it is worth include calculating in terms of interest what would be collected on depositing it in a bank, or what the cost of borrowing it might be if it were borrowed, or a weighted average of the two.
These are just musings in the context of casino play, but in essence the concept of putting a value on money invested into a venture is sound.
Just like in any business or investment, the cost of capital invested has to be considered.
tuttigym
Quote: tuttigymMr.billryan: So are you saying that patrons who dump thousands of $$$$ into these casino slots are AP? Quoting John McEnroe; "You can't be serious."
tuttigym
Some are, most are not.
Quote: tuttigymSo you are guessing, right? Looks like an uninformed opinion to me.
Wrong...I wasn't guessing or uniformed.
My opinion is that your claim of "off the chart" comps and points for $10K coin-in at a number of Biloxi casinos is bogus.
And, I'm willing to wager that my opinion is correct.
But it's not clear that you even understand what coin-in means.
Quote: coachbellyQuote: tuttigymSo you are guessing, right? Looks like an uninformed opinion to me.
Wrong...I wasn't guessing or uniformed.
My opinion is that your claim of "off the chart" comps and points for $10K coin-in at a number of Biloxi casinos is bogus.
And, I'm willing to wager that my opinion is correct.
But it's not clear that you even understand what coin-in means.
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Neither of you guys have said what off the charts comps are.
$10,000 coin-in in Biloxi prior to Covid was enough to generate a profit in offers if you knew what you were doing.
Today it's not so desirable.
As to casinos in the same market being comparable, sometimes they are and sometimes they aren't. It's not a hard and fast rule.
Biloxi had a group of casinos that were very generous and another group that were awful.
Coach, you would have a stronger argument if you actually had been to Biloxi and obtained offers instead of making assumptions.
"When I play I play with casino credit which costs me nothing, no interest, nothing."
You must repay the amount you borrowed. So you do have a dollar for dollar cost. There is no interest but you still have to repay the loan.
When I pull a casino marker there is no cost because I don't have to pay any interest when I repay it, nor would this money be available legally for any purpose other than casino play so there is no value to those specific funds outside of the casino.
Quote: MDawgLet's say you're a poker player and you're backed, and you have to give the backer 50% of your winnings. Then, the cost of the bankroll against any winnings would be 50%, because you don't get all your winnings, you get only half.
Or say you borrow money to play in the casino. The cost of that loan for the period of time you have it out would in fact be a cost deducted against any winning.
When I play I play with casino credit which costs me nothing, no interest, nothing. But if I were playing with cash, I suppose the cost of the money as opposed to what else I could do with it during the period it is invested in the casino play, would have to be considered, at least when cash is put into a business venture such as buying a property or a business you must consider the value of the money. It is not difficult to calculate the value of money - standard ways to calculate what it is worth include calculating in terms of interest what would be collected on depositing it in a bank, or what the cost of borrowing it might be if it were borrowed, or a weighted average of the two.
These are just musings in the context of casino play, but in essence the concept of putting a value on money invested into a venture is sound.
Just like in any business or investment, the cost of capital invested has to be considered.
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Quote: darkozNeither of you guys have said what off the charts comps are.
Well that's tutti's term, I'll stipulate that he can define it.
I would define it with one word...MDawg...but it's not my call.
Quote: darkozCoach, you would have a stronger argument if you actually had been to Biloxi and obtained offers
I've been to Biloxi and obtained offers.
So now my argument is somehow stronger, just like that? Really...which part?
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozNeither of you guys have said what off the charts comps are.
Well that's tutti's term, I'll stipulate that he can define it.
I would define it with one word...MDawg...but it's not my call.Quote: darkozCoach, you would have a stronger argument if you actually had been to Biloxi and obtained offers
I've been to Biloxi and obtained offers.
So now my argument is somehow stronger, just like that? Really...which part?
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If you define off the charts as MDawg level then no, those comps aren't available for $10k coin in.
Personally I think MDawg overpays for his comps though.
Quote: darkozIf you define off the charts as MDawg level then no, those comps aren't available for $10k coin in.
Off the chart is tutti's term.
Can I expect you to make a declaration, should he return and explain what "off the chart" means?
Quote: coachbellyQuote: darkozIf you define off the charts as MDawg level then no, those comps aren't available for $10k coin in.
Off the chart is tutti's term.
Can I expect you to make a declaration, should he return and explain what "off the chart" means?
link to original post
I will comment to the best of my knowledge.
I am aware of what all the pre-covid offers were for $10,000 coin-in at all the Biloxi properties.
I know at least one property is no longer the same level of offers. It's possible the others are no longer off the charts or in the Kasey Kasems top twenty.
Quote: darkozI know at least one property is no longer the same level of offers. It's possible the others are no longer off the charts
Since the "off the chart" offers are no longer available, then please provide a summary of what pre-covid conditions existed.
That would help understand what professionals consider off the chart level of offers to be.
