Buying hands in UTH
December 18th, 2012 at 8:42:06 PM
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Is it worth it in UTH to buy someones hand if they are going to fold. Example the folding player has 9,6 offsuit after the flop and river the board is 2,2 7,J,A now a fold is the right decision, but before the player folds you say I`ll take your hand but if it wins it`s mine. So you are putting up one bet, if you win you would get his ante and blind and the payoff on the ante and play bet.
So would it be worth it on hands that normally should be folded? I am only concerned if this is optimal. I am aware that many dealers or casinos won`t allow this and also most players will get resentful if you win on their hand.
Thoughts?
So would it be worth it on hands that normally should be folded? I am only concerned if this is optimal. I am aware that many dealers or casinos won`t allow this and also most players will get resentful if you win on their hand.
Thoughts?
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 18th, 2012 at 8:47:45 PM
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You should just do this on hands that should not be folded. If it was -EV for them to fold, it's + EV to buy the hand.
“Man Babes” #AxelFabulous
December 18th, 2012 at 8:58:36 PM
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I know it`s + Ev on hands that should not be folded but it seemed like you are risking one unit to win 4 units,so even if you won once every 5 times you would break even. what am I missing?
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 18th, 2012 at 9:22:13 PM
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Quote: HunterhillI know it`s + Ev on hands that should not be folded but it seemed like you are risking one unit to win 4 units,so even if you won once every 5 times you would break even. what am I missing?
How is your decision to buy the hand any different than their decision to fold? Either one of you could have paid 1 unit to try to "save" the hand. If folding is the right play, the buying the hand is not. The decisions are exact inverses of each other, regardless of who makes them.
But UTH is a game full of player errors. So I'd expect that you'll find lots of people who do fold incorrectly. one instance that I saw tonight was J2 on an AAKK7 board. buying that jack has a TON of value.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
December 18th, 2012 at 9:28:52 PM
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Thanks rdw4potus That makes perfect sense,I knew I was missing something obvious.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 18th, 2012 at 9:56:26 PM
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Quote: rdw4potusHow is your decision to buy the hand any different than their decision to fold? Either one of you could have paid 1 unit to try to "save" the hand. If folding is the right play, the buying the hand is not. The decisions are exact inverses of each other, regardless of who makes them.
But UTH is a game full of player errors. So I'd expect that you'll find lots of people who do fold incorrectly. one instance that I saw tonight was J2 on an AAKK7 board. buying that jack has a TON of value.
But there's gotta be value in it...because if they call, it costs them three units (they already had two invested in it)
It only costs you ONE, to win one or two (if the dealer qualifies or not)
Seems like a bet with zero HA (pays 1:1 with a fair chance of winning)
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
December 18th, 2012 at 10:02:45 PM
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You would not win one or two,you would win 3 or 4 because you would now own the ante and blind that they had placed.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 18th, 2012 at 10:06:10 PM
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Quote: HunterhillYou would not win one or two,you would win 3 or 4 because you would now own the ante and blind that they had placed.
well, in that case, its a HUGE advantage!
Good luck finding a player that'll go along with it, and even MORE luck finding a casino that'll let you do it!
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
December 18th, 2012 at 10:21:29 PM
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Well you have to be discreet about it,some dealers won`t say anything.Some players will go along with it until you win,then they say they don`t want to. If it is + ev (not sure that it is)it might be worth it to offer them a small amount like half a unit.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 18th, 2012 at 10:25:01 PM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDBut there's gotta be value in it...because if they call, it costs them three units (they already had two invested in it)
It only costs you ONE, to win one or two (if the dealer qualifies or not)
Seems like a bet with zero HA (pays 1:1 with a fair chance of winning)
But the units that are already wagered are sunk either way. The ante and the blind can't be taken back in any case. So you or the guy next to you or whoever are just trying to decide whether it's worth a 1 unit bet on the river to try to beat the dealer (or push) and reclaim those ante and blind bets (and any payment on the ante, if applicable). To be clear, I would also try to claim the blind bet on the saved hand, even though it wasn't paid. It would have been forfeited by the fold, so that 1 unit would be "mine" if I bought the hand and avoided the fold as well.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
December 18th, 2012 at 10:35:11 PM
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Yes I always make it clear to the other player that the ante and blind as well as the payoffs are all mine,since they are just giving it to the casino by folding,so they might as well give it to me.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 19th, 2012 at 1:58:41 AM
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Nope, as others have pointed out, his EV for calling is the same as your EV for buying it. The is pretty obvious -- you do not manufacture EV out of thin air by passing the hand one seat over.
December 19th, 2012 at 7:46:39 AM
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So far I have only done this with +ev hands,that is why I asked.I remember Grosjean wrote something about this regarding Three card poker.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 19th, 2012 at 8:55:11 AM
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The previously posted ante and blind bets are already included in the EV calculation, it doesn't matter who put it there. If either you or him call the river bet, you both win the same amount if you win the hand, or lose the river bet if you lose. So only buy +EV hands if you are allowed to.
December 19th, 2012 at 10:05:10 AM
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Hunterhill and TIMSPEED, please do not buy hands like 9,6 off with a 2,2,7,J,A board. Besides being a turrable value (it will sink in eventually), even if you do win, surveillance is gonna be on dat ass for hole-carding lol.
100% risk of ruin
December 19th, 2012 at 10:21:55 AM
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Quote: RogerKintHunterhill and TIMSPEED, please do not buy hands like 9,6 off with a 2,2,7,J,A board. Besides being a turrable value (it will sink in eventually), even if you do win, surveillance is gonna be on dat ass for hole-carding lol.
Right, but I think what HunterHill is trying to say is:
For betting ONE unit, he stands to win 3 or 4 units...so even on some MARGINAL hands (where the EV is negative, but only JUST so) it's actually worth it to buy the hand for the chance to win 3 or 4 units....
But like I said, good luck getting people and/or casinos to actually allow them. (Similar to taking odds for someone ELSE...dealers just don't like to see people do it)
Gambling calls to me...like this ~> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Nap37mNSmQ
December 19th, 2012 at 3:14:40 PM
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The difference is the original bettor will lose a total of 3 units if he bets and loses,and if he wins the most he will win is 2 units. If you take his hand fom him the most you could lose is 1 unit but you could win 4 units because you would get the payoff and his ante and blind bet. Does this make any difference?
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
December 21st, 2012 at 12:00:33 AM
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Quote: TIMSPEEDRight, but I think what HunterHill is trying to say is:
For betting ONE unit, he stands to win 3 or 4 units...so even on some MARGINAL hands (where the EV is negative, but only JUST so) it's actually worth it to buy the hand for the chance to win 3 or 4 units....
I understand what he is saying. He is wrong.
If it's worth it for me to bet one unit (on your hand) to try to win 3 or 4 units, it's also worth it for you to put one unit in to try to win those same 3 or 4 units. The calculation is the same. You cannot manufacture EV out of thin air by passing the hand to the player on your left (imagine if it were possible... you could just collude with the player on your left and play from a shared bankroll).
I think that your problem is that you are considering money that you've bet on the ante and blind as "your" money. That's not true any more once the cards are dealt. That money is in the pot. And, if it's worth it for me to bet a unit to try to win that pot, it's also worth it for you to bet that same unit to win that same pot.
December 21st, 2012 at 10:42:10 AM
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Axiom of choice, Thanks for the explanation,this makes it clear now.This is why I asked the ? in the fist place I knew someone could explain it.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
