Button Button ... Who has the button?

Button, Button... was an old child's game. Sit in a circle pass a button around or pretend to pass it around and then guess who has the button.

In the world of commerce, crime, tax evasion, ... too many entities is a tip off. Indeed one man, an unsung hero from the Enron Fraud, started crying out the Emperor is naked simply because he saw one deal was structured with more entities that would have been used by an international drug cartel's lawyer.

Now we get to certifying electronic gaming, electronic voting, electronic remote viewing meters,... anything.

In the day and age of the Internet of Things refrigerators can be turned on and off remotely. I doubt I would want to ever exercise that option but I sure as heck don't want anyone to be able to exercise it for me.

Certified Gaming? Wonderful concept. Three owners in a decade? Sort of dilutes the value of the concept.

All these "pocket jurisdictions" of Indian reservations or tiny Banana Republics have little credibility.

Some sticker on a refrigerator about "certified" ain't gonna mean much to me either. And if I find my coffee pot is internet accessible, I'm going to unplug it rather than trust the certification.

Is there a market for certified gambling... there sure is, but something is wrong if entities change names and owners too rapidly.

I tend to respectfully disagree, in this case.

With Certified Fair Gambling, what you have is a company that has changed hands three times, yes, but for neither of the first two people (and presumably not for Charles Mousseau) is this going to be their primary source of revenue.

Teliot discussed the sale at APHeat.net and I hope he corrects me if I am mistaken, but breaking what he said about the sale down to the bare bones, "I don't have time for this anymore," is what I read into it. He mentioned:

A.) The industry has taken him in a different direction.

B.) CRMousseau has the drive to grow the company.

I don't think it speaks to the efficacy of CFG to have changed hands three times, especially if it is mainly because Teliot wishes to pass it to someone with more time to focus on it so that it doesn't stagnate under him as he focuses on game protection and analysis. If my interpretation of what Teliot said is correct, and with no offense to him intended, it will be better in the hands of the equally qualified owner, CRMousseau, who will have more time for it.

Either way, CFG is about fairness testing which is going to occur in more or less the same fashion regardless of who the owner is.

I still wouldn't play at an on-line casino, with exception to Bovada, mainly because I have tons of B&M's near me and the Wizard saying, "If you sign up through this site and have a dispute, I've got your back," means more to me than CFG certification. However, I don't think CFG is any stronger or weaker because of this change of ownership, and if CRMousseau indeed does have more time for the company, it should be better for it.

Quote: Mission146

I tend to respectfully disagree, in this case.

With Certified Fair Gambling, what you have is a company that has changed hands three times, yes, but for neither of the first two people (and presumably not for Charles Mousseau) is this going to be their primary source of revenue.

Teliot discussed the sale at APHeat.net and I hope he corrects me if I am mistaken, but breaking what he said about the sale down to the bare bones, "I don't have time for this anymore," is what I read into it. He mentioned:

A.) The industry has taken him in a different direction.

B.) CRMousseau has the drive to grow the company.

I don't think it speaks to the efficacy of CFG to have changed hands three times, especially if it is mainly because Teliot wishes to pass it to someone with more time to focus on it so that it doesn't stagnate under him as he focuses on game protection and analysis. If my interpretation of what Teliot said is correct, and with no offense to him intended, it will be better in the hands of the equally qualified owner, CRMousseau, who will have more time for it.

Either way, CFG is about fairness testing which is going to occur in more or less the same fashion regardless of who the owner is.

I still wouldn't play at an on-line casino, with exception to Bovada, mainly because I have tons of B&M's near me and the Wizard saying, "If you sign up through this site and have a dispute, I've got your back," means more to me than CFG certification. However, I don't think CFG is any stronger or weaker because of this change of ownership, and if CRMousseau indeed does have more time for the company, it should be better for it.

Did Teliot's company certify BV?

Mission DON'T avoid any AP opportunity onine just because it is not BV. Just do your homework. Situations may come up where you can take some losses on a no pay or gaffed casino and still come out way ahead. I have played Gaffed casinos and still won. Online used to be a gold mine. There are still some safe low risk AP's online. If you would like, when I get some time, I will send you a few.

I should not be advocating this however, because Teliot might criticize me due to the fact that, gambling online may be illegal, unless its on a US approved site and your playing from that state. I think this would not be the case with you. Possibly he thinks streaming video is more addictive, harmful and illegal then Gambling online.

I tend to not so respectfully disagree with this statement from CFG.

" Casino players want fair games, even if it means losing a little more than winning. "

On-line poker proved the average players will go where the bigger bonus is and convince themselves they will get paid.

Quote: AxelWolf

Did Teliot's company certify BV?

I don't know, Wizard did with his promise of support, so that's good enough for me.

Quote:

Mission DON'T avoid any AP opportunity onine just because it is not BV. Just do your homework. Situations may come up where you can take some losses on a no pay or gaffed casino and still come out way ahead. I have played Gaffed casinos and still won. Online used to be a gold mine. There are still some safe low risk AP's online. If you would like, when I get some time, I will send you a few.

I would certainly look over them, but I can't promise that I would play them. I basically tried out Bovada just so that I could say I had, what with it being the only advertiser for this and WoO. I don't trust any of the other on-line casinos to pay or NOT to cheat...I'm not saying all of them do not pay or do cheat...I'm just saying that any of them could.

On a side note: If anyone here who lives in NJ and has access to legal online casinos. PM me please, I am interested in talking with you.

Quote: Buzzard

On-line poker proved the average players will go where the bigger bonus is and convince themselves they will get paid.

I think it is correct that the online poker explosion proved there was a massive market ... and that players were so desperate for "action" that they would accept any action and fall for any enticements no matter how revoltingly ridiculous they were.

We recently had a thread about a Bricks and Mortar casino offering a four dollar Apple Pie as an inducement. Comparable discussions of online offers would include such things as NonExistent Bonuses and the like which show online players equally bemused by strange declarations of electronic casinos.

Quote: Buzzard

On-line poker proved the average players will go where the bigger bonus is and convince themselves they will get paid.

Not sure what this means as far as the get paid part? I would say most people have been payed from the top online poker rooms. Are there some specific cases where a huge bonus was offered and people were stiffed?

I remember a online casino with some worrisome name like, bigdaddy or thug-life casino. If you are foolish enough to jump on that......

I wonder.
Does it take more or less money to open and run an online casino honestly?

If a guy opens up as Honest Casino are all the cutthroats going to jump on the dumb chump?

Is one honest casino a threat to the dishonest ones.

Quote: FleaStiff

I wonder.
Does it take more or less money to open and run an online casino honestly?

If a guy opens up as Honest Casino are all the cutthroats going to jump on the dumb chump?

Is one honest casino a threat to the dishonest ones.

I was very interested in doing this in the late 90's with a few gambling partners. they disliked the idea. I didn't feel like I had the time to do it by myself and the knowledge, so I put it on the back burner. Back then 10k would have been enough. I think I still have some quotes including software packages.

Nowadays I think its hundreds of thousands depending on who you go through. I think the biggest costs would be advertising. There is some legality issues. One may have to permanently move to a different country. Then you would have to pay huge licensing fees and bribe money.

Quote: FleaStiff

Is there a market for certified gambling... there sure is, but something is wrong if entities change names and owners too rapidly.

To expand on the above comment, maybe there is a market for online certified gambling technicians, just, maybe not a market for honest certifications. Having an honest reputation in that field for the online gambling industry might be detrimental for a successful enterprise.

In addition, if a player gets followed and the shit kicked out of him after visiting an online casino’s operation in Costa Rica seeking payment for his winnings, there very well could be more serious threats made to honest technicians who might be considering exposing their findings. Especially, after turning down $150,000.00 dollars to falsify and approve rogue data.

I doubt the last two CEO’s of CFG would or could address these issues openly.

You would have to wonder why two of the top well known trusted technicians in this field ran for the hills.

Quote: AxelWolf

Then you would have to pay huge licensing fees and bribe money.

It is impossible to run an honest business if bribe money is extorted for it. Its like printing a newspaper ... and paying people for their information. If you pay people, the first thing they utter is "what do you want me to say". I believe there was one woman from Los Angeles or Santa Barbara who started out with a telephone dating service and then migrated to offshore gaming. She had to leave the USA but by then renouncing her citizenship was a drop in the bucket.

Quote: AxelWolf

Not sure what this means as far as the get paid part? I would say most people have been payed from the top online poker rooms. Are there some specific cases where a huge bonus was offered and people were stiffed?

I remember a online casino with some worrisome name like, bigdaddy or thug-life casino. If you are foolish enough to jump on that......

Seems to me this site was the second largest on-line poker room.

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2013/04/17/founder-full-tilt-poker-pleads-guilty-fraud-federal-court-148864

Quote: Mission146

I tend to respectfully disagree, in this case.

With Certified Fair Gambling, what you have is a company that has changed hands three times, yes, but for neither of the first two people (and presumably not for Charles Mousseau) is this going to be their primary source of revenue.

While I don't doubt the integrity of any of the people who have run the company, I do doubt the usefulness of the service it provides. If I understand correctly (from the posts on apheat) the following is required to get certification:

1. Source code
2. Data
3. A test account

So...

1. Anyone who can write cheating source code can write fair source code as well (as far as I can tell, the auditor has no evidence that the source code provided is the same as the source code that it compiled for the actual casino software).

2. Once you write the fair source code in step one, using it to generate fair data is trivial.

3. It is not difficult for there to be a per-account cheating setting. Just because the test account receives a fair game, it doesn't mean that the other accounts do too.

So, I don't see how the certification is at all useful. At best, it certifies that the operator knows how a fair casino should be implemented, and is not dumb enough to send the auditor the cheating version of the source code.

Am I missing something?

You can digitally sign the software, and for some languages/architectures show that the software running on system X is the same as the source code you have.

Quote: FleaStiff

We recently had a thread about a Bricks and Mortar casino offering a four dollar Apple Pie as an inducement. Comparable discussions of online offers would include such things as NonExistent Bonuses and the like which show online players equally bemused by strange declarations of electronic casinos.

I remember longhorn/bighorn offered a free grandmas cookie for signing up.

Quote: thecesspit

You can digitally sign the software, and for some languages/architectures show that the software running on system X is the same as the source code you have.

But, again, from the relevant posts on apheat, I don't get the idea that that's what's going on here.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

But, again, from the relevant posts on apheat, I don't get the idea that that's what's going on here.

I can't comment on that, I just know it is possible to show the source code used is the source code being executed. It's quite important to be able to prove that in many environments. I have no idea if that level of proof is required in any online casino.

Three Card Monte dealer will always show you the cards. How's that for certification ?