BitCoin
http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/02/25/major_online_bitcoin_exchange_mt_gox_vanishes.html
"In bitcoin exchanges, the currency’s value has fallen to about $470 from $550 in the past few hours, a figure already down more than 50 per cent on the price of $1,200 per bitcoin reached on Mt. Gox three months ago."
At this minute, it is back up to $512.
It's hard to trust a currency and none of the exchanges.
really means
"I still have money in Bitcoin and am trying to cash out before they become worth nothing."
ZCore13
Quote: pacomartinThe fact that our revolution was founded primarily on tax avoidance is not lost on many advocates. Certainly many people view tax avoidance as a victimless crime.
Some people think that some of what the government does is evil and tax avoidance is thus honorable.
As to it being the currency of criminals - well I see it more as the currency of freedom. Here is the funny part about some of the political spectrum represented on this forum: They love to hate on the government, but at the same time, they feel that everybody must subject to the government's control or be labelled a terrorist or criminal.
Quote: geoffIf a person thinks some of what the government does is wrong then they should vote. Picking and choosing taxes on the basis of not liking them is wrong.
Yes, because if a majority of people vote a certain way then that makes it morally right!
Too bad there aren't thousands of examples of blatanly evil things done by government
with the will of the majority that I might cite here, and you know it would be right to resist.
Instead I will just say that except for maybe on the most local levels, voting sucks and is a
complete waste of time on a practical level. I also don't buy your moral argument which boils
down to "If you don't vote you can't complain!" In fact the opposite is true. If play the game,
you consent to the rules. I don't think popular whim ought to dictate who the government
kills and cages, and what should be stolen from some people and given to others, but I have
to get involved in this quadrennial low grade war over who gets to cut up the stolen loot?
The folks on South Park put it best:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pji_IX-UacM
I read somewhere that every potus except Grover Cleveland was closely related. Not to mention, Dubya and Kerry who were supposedly part of the same college secret organization.
Quote: coilmanIs the time right to get out?
http://www.thestar.com/business/2014/02/25/major_online_bitcoin_exchange_mt_gox_vanishes.html
No I'd say the right time to get out was 2 months ago.
The question is whether this latest problem signals the end or just a bump in the road for Bitcoin. Without viable and trustworthy exchanges does Bitcoin have a future?
Quote: geoffThere are a lot of environmentalists who disagree with the way corporations are allowed to do business. Should they get to not pay taxes. Some vegetarians think the government allowing the slaughter of animals is immoral. Should they get to not pay taxes. If people get to opt out of taxes because they didn't get their way then how would taxes work at all?
Great question. Maybe, just maybe, it is possible that human beings can interact and
coexist without stealing money from each other. Maybe security can be provided the same
way that Mercedes, Snickers Bars, and iPhones are provided....Through free people
trading goods and services.
EDIT: If you don't like that answer, consider that the top marginal tax rate in CA is 13%,
and the top federal rate is 39%. So a wealthy man pays more than half of his income
in income taxes alone, ignore all the other taxes he has to pay. Can't we agree that
It is immoral to take more than half of someone's income, even if it is a really really rich
guy AND it passes with a wide majority of voters?
Quote: RogerKintI read somewhere that every potus except Grover Cleveland was closely related. Not to mention, Dubya and Kerry who were supposedly part of the same college secret organization.
This is a myth. In reality most of use are much more "closely" related than we think, it is simply that most of us don't know our own genealogy. If someone becomes POTUS, the genealogists all go into overtime.
The fact that President Obama is descended from a medieval English king simply means that he is part English. Although many people don't know their own bloodline, it is nearly impossible to be English and not be descended from a medieval king. But many people come through illegitimate lines.
Quote: PBguyNo I'd say the right time to get out was 2 months ago.
The question is whether this latest problem signals the end or just a bump in the road for Bitcoin. Without viable and trustworthy exchanges does Bitcoin have a future?
Having a viable exchange is only half the problem. The other half is that's the Bitcoin itself is just basically Monopoly money, a baseball card or a Chuck E Cheese token. They are all backed by nothing. They are worth what some clown will pay for them.
Why are Bitcoins worth so much right now? Because criminals need them to conduct their business with far less chance of getting caught than cash. But that will and is changing. A few weeks ago a HUGE player in the Bitcoin scene ( Charlie Shrem) was arrested and charged with money laundering and operating an unlicensed money transmitting business. He used his Bitcoin exchange to sell over $1,000,000 in bitcoins to Silk Road members so that they could then use the bitcoins to purchase drugs, stolen merchandise and other illegal items. If you're not familiar with Silk Road, look it up. It's commonly referred to as the "Amazon of illegal drugs and activities".
ZCore13
Quote: 1arrowheaddrOn average each person has one million 10th cousins.
Recent research leads biologists to believe that everyone of European descent in the entire world has a common ancestor who lived roughly 1000 years ago. So any two Europeans may all be 40th cousins or closer.
Probably the most closely related group of people on Earth are the 320,000 Icelanders. They even have an app for their phones so that if they are tempted to go home with someone after drinking in a bar, it tells you how closely you are related to the other person.
Quote: Zcore13Having a viable exchange is only half the problem. The other half is that's the Bitcoin itself is just basically Monopoly money, a baseball card or a Chuck E Cheese token. They are all backed by nothing. They are worth what some clown will pay for them.
Sounds like any government-issued currency. We are all the clowns.
Quote: BuzzardGee, I sold my Beanie Baby collection to buy Bit coins, and now this !
The good news is that if you sold your Beanie Baby collection you could only buy like a tenth of a bit coin so you aren't out much.
http://boingboing.net/2013/06/23/bubblenomics-how-the-beanie-b.html
Quote: AcesAndEightsSounds like any government-issued currency. We are all the clowns.
Unfortunately, you've been watching too many conspiracy theory shows or believing everything you hear. The U.S. dollar is backed by the United States Tax Code and taxes. It's one of the most stable and backed currencies in the world. Many Countries currencies are backed by just the basic promise of their Government that the money is good.
Why do other Countries do business with us and accept our credit? Because our money is backed by the taxes we all pay.
Why is the U.S credit rating AA+ (The second highest possible rating in the world)? Because our money is backed by taxes.
China has a lower credit rating. Russia has a lower credit rating. There's probably only a dozen Countries in the world with a higher credit rating.
Don't believe everything you hear or read. Most of it's not true.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Unfortunately, you've been watching too many conspiracy theory shows or believing everything you hear. The U.S. dollar is backed by the United States Tax Code and taxes. It's one of the most stable and backed currencies in the world. Many Countries currencies are backed by just the basic promise of their Government that the money is good.
Why do other Countries do business with us and accept our credit? Because our money is backed by the taxes we all pay.
Why is the U.S credit rating AA+ (The second highest possible rating in the world)? Because our money is backed by taxes.
China has a lower credit rating. Russia has a lower credit rating. There's probably only a dozen Countries in the world with a higher credit rating.
Don't believe everything you hear or read. Most of it's not true.
ZCore13
The US dollar is backed by the US government saying it is valuable. That promise does carry a lot of weight, you are correct. But it is not "backed" by any physical asset. It is worth exactly what someone will give you for it. Just like BitCoin.
Quote: Zcore13Having a viable exchange is only half the problem. The other half is that's the Bitcoin itself is just basically Monopoly money, a baseball card or a Chuck E Cheese token. They are all backed by nothing. They are worth what some clown will pay for them.
For there is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.- William Shakespeare
Value is always a perceived notion. Currency is given it's value primarily because it is accepted for tax payments.
There are four basic properties of bitcoin that should be considered:
(1) It is anonymous (but so is cash)
(2) It is anonymous and does not need to be transported (unlike cash)
(3) It's value is not affected by government policy
(4) It is extremely volatile
But it suffers from one great weakness. While counterfeiting is a concern for all currency, in reality the rumors of counterfeit do far more damage than actual counterfeit banknotes. With bitcoin, the rumor mill is much more difficult to control.
Personally, I still believe most people invest in bitcoins because of the volatility. They are hoping to win on a big sweep.
I also still think some government (like Switzerland) can create anonymous electronic currency that is not volatile. Although there may be some push back from other governments, there are so many people that will benefit, that other governments will be unable to crush it.
Quote: AcesAndEightsThe US dollar is backed by the US government saying it is valuable. That promise does carry a lot of weight, you are correct. But it is not "backed" by any physical asset. It is worth exactly what someone will give you for it. Just like BitCoin.
Isn't the USD valuable because much of the middle east's oil can only be purchased using USD? Making the dollar essentially backed by oil. I read this was the reason for both of our wars in Iraq. Slowly realizing that I need to swap my reading material for Paco's.
Quote: RogerKintIsn't the USD valuable because much of the middle east's oil can only be purchased using USD? Making the dollar essentially backed by oil. I read this was the reason for both of our wars in Iraq. Slowly realizing that I need to swap my reading material for Paco's.
I had actually never heard that. I would be very interested to read a source on that fact.
Quote: RogerKintIsn't the USD valuable because much of the middle east's oil can only be purchased using USD? Making the dollar essentially backed by oil. I read this was the reason for both of our wars in Iraq. Slowly realizing that I need to swap my reading material for Paco's.
Petrodollar warfare is the reference you are looking for.
Essentially you are correct. The theory is that nations must maintain supplies of dollars to purchase oil, regardless of economic conditions in the USA.
In 2007 Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that the depreciating U.S. dollar, is a “worthless piece of paper.”
In 2008, Iran completely stopped conducting oil transactions in U.S. dollars in a concerted attempt to reduce the power of the petrodollar.
Quote: pacomartinPetrodollar warfare is the reference you are looking for.
Essentially you are correct. The theory is that nations must maintain supplies of dollars to purchase oil, regardless of economic conditions in the USA.
In 2007 Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that the depreciating U.S. dollar, is a “worthless piece of paper.”
In 2008, Iran completely stopped conducting oil transactions in U.S. dollars in a concerted attempt to reduce the power of the petrodollar.
And that comical attempt by Ahmadinejad did nothing.
Here's a few more questions for those that think the U.S. dollar is backed by nothing and worth the same as bitcoin.
Why has the U.S. Stock Market continued to go up and to record highs? Because foreign investors keep buying up U.S. assets. Foreign investors own over 25 TRILLION dollars worth of U.S. assets and has been increasing in double digit percentages for a few years. And they are not buying them on the cheap. Sales prices for U.S. companies are through the roof because the competition to buy them is strong.
Who owns all the $100 bills produced by the U.S. Treasury? Not us. There are over 900 billion dollars worth of $100 bills in circulation. Anywhere from half to two thirds don't live in the U.S. As fast as we can put them in circulation, they are exchanged for by foreign companies and individuals. Who holds some of the biggest stashes of $100 bills? Russia, Korea and Vietnam. Why? They are investing in their future. When they just came out with the new design, the marketing material produced by the Treasury was not to tell U.S. citizens about it's features. The material was printed in 26 different languages to attract even more investment into it.
Stop fooling yourself and thinking Bitcoin would have any value at all if criminals didn't take it as their own. Yes, it's possible it will survive and skirt around the system, but more likely in a few years a couple of Bitcoins will get you a game at Chuck E Cheese.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Here's a few more questions for those that think the U.S. dollar is backed by nothing and worth the same as bitcoin.
Zcore, are you arguing that the dollar is actually a good store of value, or merely that it's better than bitcoin?
Quote: Zcore13Who owns all the $100 bills produced by the U.S. Treasury? Not us. There are over 900 billion dollars worth of $100 bills in circulation. Anywhere from half to two thirds don't live in the U.S. As fast as we can put them in circulation, they are exchanged for by foreign companies and individuals. Who holds some of the biggest stashes of $100 bills? Russia, Korea and Vietnam. Why? They are investing in their future.
Actually it is probably well over 80% of the c-notes in foreign circulation.
According to US government CPI data $100 in 2014 is equivalent to $15.70 in 1969 (when the final decision was made to never produce any banknotes higher than $100 and destroy all the ones in circulation when they were turned in to banks).
In 1969 the federal reserve was circulating roughly $250 per capita in currency, and an estimated 5% was circulating overseas.
But with 4.3 billion people in Asia, there is going to be some push to stop relying on the currency of 317 million people in the USA, or 336 million people in the Eurozone.
Quote: Zcore13Quote: pacomartinPetrodollar warfare is the reference you are looking for.
Essentially you are correct. The theory is that nations must maintain supplies of dollars to purchase oil, regardless of economic conditions in the USA.
In 2007 Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that the depreciating U.S. dollar, is a “worthless piece of paper.”
In 2008, Iran completely stopped conducting oil transactions in U.S. dollars in a concerted attempt to reduce the power of the petrodollar.
And that comical attempt by Ahmadinejad did nothing.
Here's a few more questions for those that think the U.S. dollar is backed by nothing and worth the same as bitcoin.
Why has the U.S. Stock Market continued to go up and to record highs? Because foreign investors keep buying up U.S. assets. Foreign investors own over 25 TRILLION dollars worth of U.S. assets and has been increasing in double digit percentages for a few years. And they are not buying them on the cheap. Sales prices for U.S. companies are through the roof because the competition to buy them is strong.
Who owns all the $100 bills produced by the U.S. Treasury? Not us. There are over 900 billion dollars worth of $100 bills in circulation. Anywhere from half to two thirds don't live in the U.S. As fast as we can put them in circulation, they are exchanged for by foreign companies and individuals. Who holds some of the biggest stashes of $100 bills? Russia, Korea and Vietnam. Why? They are investing in their future. When they just came out with the new design, the marketing material produced by the Treasury was not to tell U.S. citizens about it's features. The material was printed in 26 different languages to attract even more investment into it.
Stop fooling yourself and thinking Bitcoin would have any value at all if criminals didn't take it as their own. Yes, it's possible it will survive and skirt around the system, but more likely in a few years a couple of Bitcoins will get you a game at Chuck E Cheese.
ZCore13
I exaggerated in my initial statement; sorry. I did not mean to imply that the US dollar is worth "the same" as bitcoin. The point I was trying to make (poorly) is that the US dollar is powerful and stable because anyone will take it. That is the only reason it is worth anything - other than that it is just a piece of paper. As more people accept Bitcoins (The D takes them!), they will stabilize and become a more viable currency.
I've never owned bitcoins, but I think cryptocurrency is here to stay.
ZCore13
Quote: CBC NewsIn yet another blow to virtual currency bitcoin, a major bitcoin exchange has gone bust after secretly racking up catastrophic losses, other virtual currency companies said Tuesday.
Tokyo-based Mt. Gox posted an update on its website on Tuesday, saying a "decision was taken to close all transactions for the time being."
Mt. Gox had imposed a withdrawal ban earlier this month after detecting what it called "unusual activity" and then on Tuesday, its website went dark. The new message posted later in the day said: "We will be closely monitoring the situation and will react accordingly."
Quote: Zcore13The U.S. dollar is backed by the United States Tax Code and taxes. It's one of the most stable and backed currencies in the world.
Its true that the value of the dollar is bolstered by taxes. What this means is that the government will only accept payment of taxes in $$ (and for that matter will only enforce civil contract judgements in $$$).
Now people want the Government to do something about it. Funny how one of the big talking points and features of Bitcoin is no Government regulation but now because they got burned on it, there should be Government regulation...
ZCore13
Quote: geoffI have zero sympathy for the people who lost out just like I have zero sympathy for the people who lose it all on the craps table.
Dr Housing Bubble had an interesting example
Consider a $1,000,000 home purchase you and have a 25 percent down payment ($250,000).
You can go with a 10-year ARM:
10 year arm $3,428.38 / month with $21.5K closing fee (3.625% and 1.5 points)
3 year interest only $1,953 / month with $17.5K closing (3.125% and 1.5 points) for 3-years.
If you have little or no down payment, it could cost you $2K per month to buy a $300K house.
Do you think people who engage in these kind of transactions are smart? Do you have any sympathy for them if their million dollar house loses $250K in value over those three years, and now they must finance a house that is only worth $750K?
Quote: Zcore13I don't think there is any doubt there will be digital currency in the future. I just don't think it will be Bitcoin.
ZCore13
I have no doubts either that there will be a digital currency in the future.
It could be bitcoin though, the question is what odd do you give it to be the one.
Probably some big conglomarate will try also, the likes of google, apple with the backing of a big bank or a consortium of a few of them.
But you never know, another start-up might come up with a better solution.
I saw an analogy of bitcoin with the internet .com bubble of the late 90's.
In the beginning, early 90s there was very litte interest and internet companies where underavalued.
Then at late 90s everyone went crazy and the whole thing became a bubble with most of them disapprearing.
But there where a few good ones (ie google) who had a product that everyone needed but did not know at the time who became very sucessful a few years later.
The same with bitcoin. We are probably still at bubble phase going towards the collapse phase.
But it could rebounce steadily in the future if the product is needed and it offers what everyone needs but does not know at this time.
But of course in this case a different 'bitcoin' might come up and prevail.
I would not put any money now on something so volatile which shows signs that it goes through the collapse phase.
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Inbox
x
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Quote: AceTwoI have no doubts either that there will be a digital currency in the future.
It could be bitcoin though, the question is what odd do you give it to be the one.
Probably some big conglomarate will try also, the likes of google, apple with the backing of a big bank or a consortium of a few of them.
But you never know, another start-up might come up with a better solution.
There is no way, at least not in the US. The federal government will crush any attempt to introduce a serious currency that is not their own. It is very important to them that they can control the money supply. They are not going to bother with small-time stuff, but, once it grows to any reasonable size, they will shut it down.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThere is no way, at least not in the US.
Government's would like very much to have a digital currency for routine purchases. The cost of printing bills, minting coins, making change, robberies, guarding vaults, etc. is actually astronomical.
But it would be government currency, not that of a corporation. And they don't want people routinely passing around large sums of money.
Canada is trying to be world leader in digital currency.
Sweden has reduced the number of 1000 krona (=$154) notes to roughly 1 per capita. They are still planning to print a new version in 2015 with their new series, but they haven't said how many they are going to print.
Sweden does not currently have a 200 krona banknote (=$30). I am not sure what is used in their ATM's as 100 krona notes are awfully small value for such an expensive country. I presume mostly they are stocked with the 500 krona note.
In any case the number of ATM's per capita is closer to that of a 3rd world nation, and a small percentage of that of the USA. In addition, only one major bank handles currency transactions at teller windows.
Quote: pacomartinGovernment's would like very much to have a digital currency for routine purchases. The cost of printing bills, minting coins, making change, robberies, guarding vaults, etc. is actually astronomical.
But it would be government currency, not that of a corporation. And they don't want people routinely passing around large sums of money.
Yes, that was my point. It will not be a currency that's not controlled by the federal government.
ZCore13
more like bawling your eyes out the other day after realizing even lucky Asians can you can run bad.Quote: djatcI don't like the new $100's because they are too crisp and the thing in the middle clumps up multiple $100s. Since I am a baller I carry old benji's and strut my stuff throughout casinos.
Quote: Zcore13I could see a Google or Paypal making it happen. They are big enough to support it and trustworthy enough to allow people to be confident in the system.
ZCore13
Everybody hates Paypal.
I don't hate Paypal, but they are to restrictive and the fees can be annoying.Quote: RicardoEstebanEverybody hates Paypal.
