PartTime AP prospects

Quote: darkoz

What fraud?

If ceasars says you can have a free toaster and you give your free toaster to someone else how is that fraud?

If you picked it up or had that person go down with your card its not fraud for you to accept what is freely offered and give it away.

Conspiracy must have a crime behind it. There is no crime here. If there is a sale on milk at the grocery and my friends all conspire to go on the sale day there is no crime of conspiracy to buy milk on sale.

I believe you are mistaken, but don't really care one way or the other. I wouldn't be in any rush to have a team member testify under oath.

Quote: billryan

I believe you are mistaken, but don't really care one way or the other. I wouldn't be in any rush to have a team member testify under oath.

When the police were called to arrest me for use IN PENNSYLVANIA of other peoples cards the first question they asked was did the people give me permission

I said yes.

They demanded I prove it.

I supplied all the phone numbers of all the people whose cards I was observed gambling on.

The police held me while they called every single person. The police confirmed people identity by confirming their birthday info which the casino had of course in their files.

Naturally every single person stated I had explicit permission to use their cards

The police then notified the casino there was nothing they could do because no crime was committed

The casino was instructed to cash me out by the gaming police. I had won over $2,000 using freeplay credits that day alone. Casino had to pay me.

So, yeah, I would want my team to testify they gave me permission to use the cards. Its precisely what makes what I do perfectly legal.

Still not sure what fraud you think is taking place

EDIT: After 3 years I still have not been entered into the Pennsylvania exclusion list. I committed no crime and their entire list is of criminals (even petty crimes)

I csn enter any Pennsylvania casino I want save that one casino I was trespassed from

Quote: AxelWolf

That didn't need to be said. I was just curious if you have yet to run into a situation where it has cost 10's of thousands. And yes I know that still wouldn't be a big issue. But it certainly would suck. And if one of your people get jammed up and they do or say something that out of line and it goes further, I take it you will pay all their legal fees?

Actually I have paid legal for fees for at least 3 of my team members

But its not what you are probably assuming.

They have lawsuits for false imprisonment pending when the casinos broke the law.

Again no one on my teams do anything illegal.

Quote: darkoz

Actually I have paid legal for fees for at least 3 of my team members

But its not what you are probably assuming.

They have lawsuits for false imprisonment pending when the casinos broke the law.

Again no one on my teams do anything illegal.

I don't assume they are, but again, that does not mean someone else won't think it is and prosecute anyways. You have gotten lucky thus far, given the numbers you would have us believe you are running, it's not a matter of if, it's just a matter of when. There have been others doing this in some of the places you mentioned, and it's been way more costly and serious than what you have run into so far. And no, they were not using fake ID's or anything like that.

Quote: Sandybestdog

I mean is it an AP move? Yea, sure. I agree it’s unimaginative.

The notion that a play needs to be totally original and imaginative to qualify as legit AP is totally ridiculous. By this criteria, card-counting, holecarding, edge sorting, top carding, and whatever other techniques commonly in use by APs are weak forms of AP, just because they've been around for decades and aren't original to the person using them?

Quote: AxelWolf

Again, I think we need to know what area you are from before anyone can help you with any solid advice. Being a part time AP in Las Vegas VS any other places would be significantly diffrent, and of course all the other places compared to each other would be diffrent as well. It might also help knowing what kinda bankroll you are talking about. You seemed indicated you were flush however you also seemed to indicate you an open scheduled with your job.

From my experience I dont know too many people that are successful when they suddenly jump right in to AP with a big bankroll or not, especially trying learn and do it on their own.

I've sent you a DM. If you're willing to give some help, I'd rather talk the specifics there instead of publicly.

I don't believe there is anything sophisticated to the scheme Darkov is describing - just converting to cash new player incentives and free play. Even assuming that this is sufficiently lucrative, would seem that the bank of new converts, especially ones that he describes that he knows personally and trusts, would eventually dry up.

Even MLM scams tell you to just sign up two new persons a week, and make sure each of your converts does the same. Well, this would exhaust the population of the earth within 15 weeks or so, is the problem.


Anyway to quote from Jackie Brown, "Whatever you’re into, you seem to be getting away with it, so, more power to you...."

Quote: MDawg

I don't believe there is anything sophisticated to the scheme Darkov is describing - just converting to cash new player incentives and free play. Even assuming that this is sufficiently lucrative, would seem that the bank of new converts, especially ones that he describes that he knows personally and trusts, would eventually dry up.

Even MLM scams tell you to just sign up two new persons a week, and make sure each of your converts does the same. Well, this would exhaust the population of the earth within 15 weeks or so, is the problem.


Anyway to quote from Jackie Brown, "Whatever you’re into, you seem to be getting away with it, so, more power to you...."

Thats not what I do.

I had intended to be a part time AP when I moved out here, but just didn't enjoy putting in the hours. It wasn't hard to set up routes that made picking up free play and the like worthwhile. There are some nice bonus plays in locals bars for small time grinders. Lots of graveyard promos that add up over a week.
In my case, I found it tedious. All my life I avoided doing anything I wasn't passionate about and, surprisingly, gaming the system didn't thrill me. I found buying and selling at auction to be more fun and satisfying. Once gaming wasn't routine, I started to enjoy playing a little bit.
You can definitely make decent part time money in Vegas/Laughlin. I know people who do it full-time and seem to enjoy it. Several went out of their way to help me and it was much appreciated, but it wasn't for me.
What do you have to lose?

Quote: billryan

I had intended to be a part time AP when I moved out here, but just didn't enjoy putting in the hours. It wasn't hard to set up routes that made picking up free play and the like worthwhile. There are some nice bonus plays in locals bars for small time grinders. Lots of graveyard promos that add up over a week.
In my case, I found it tedious. All my life I avoided doing anything I wasn't passionate about and, surprisingly, gaming the system didn't thrill me. I found buying and selling at auction to be more fun and satisfying. Once gaming wasn't routine, I started to enjoy playing a little bit.
You can definitely make decent part time money in Vegas/Laughlin. I know people who do it full-time and seem to enjoy it. Several went out of their way to help me and it was much appreciated, but it wasn't for me.
What do you have to lose?

Nyc is always gonna be home base for me.

Born and raised.

Family here.

Good AP opportunity

Good transportation:)

And if the AP suddenly falls apart I always a have a place to sleep (on the subway) [humor anyone?]

Quote: stooge

The notion that a play needs to be totally original and imaginative to qualify as legit AP is totally ridiculous. By this criteria, card-counting, holecarding, edge sorting, top carding, and whatever other techniques commonly in use by APs are weak forms of AP, just because they've been around for decades and aren't original to the person using them?

Wow if you consider what Phil Ivey did a weak form of AP I want to know what kind of stuff you’re up to. Yea sure it’s a legit AP move, I just don’t like that it’s going on to the degree that it is. I don’t think getting 4 people together to play a 5k $30 earlier than is reasonable is on the same level as hole carding and card counting. Again not that it has to be. It’s just putting people like me at a disadvantage because I don’t have the ability to compete like that.

Last time I checked the world wasn't necessarily a fair place... 😂😃

Quote: Sandybestdog

Wow if you consider what Phil Ivey did a weak form of AP I want to know what kind of stuff you’re up to. Yea sure it’s a legit AP move, I just don’t like that it’s going on to the degree that it is. I don’t think getting 4 people together to play a 5k $30 earlier than is reasonable is on the same level as hole carding and card counting. Again not that it has to be. It’s just putting people like me at a disadvantage because I don’t have the ability to compete like that.

If that is what you think the multi-carding move is...

Again, thats not what I do.

For an unimaginative AP play its hilarious no one can use their imagination to figure it out.

There are a few people on here who do know. Dont get me wrong. But its obvious who doesnt know

Quote: darkoz

If it makes you feel better what I do has nothing to do with progressives. Sometimes I play them if they are must hits but I am at pretty much the same disadvantage (or if the machine is high enough) advantage as you.

I dont think its fully grasped what I do. Just peripherally(I have read quite a few somewhat incorrect theories on this forum) Since so few on here can actually grasp the full maneuver I would say its highly imaginative.

.......

Dollar wise we’re at the same level but if you’re running 4 cards on a must hit at the same level that I am you’re gonna get at least twice the freeplay. No must hit in AC is playable cause the teams and the Asians can always run multiple cards on them. So to get anything playable I have to drive and fly to far out places which takes a lot of time.

I don’t really care about what you do but don’t taut about some secret system you have have like you’re a genius unless you’re willing to share.

Quote: Sandybestdog

Dollar wise we’re at the same level but if you’re running 4 cards on a must hit at the same level that I am you’re gonna get at least twice the freeplay. No must hit in AC is playable cause the teams and the Asians can always run multiple cards on them. So to get anything playable I have to drive and fly to far out places which takes a lot of time.

I don’t really care about what you do but don’t taut about some secret system you have have like you’re a genius unless you’re willing to share.

Not willing to share.

But rest assured I dont do must-hits the way you describe.

I do something totally different

Quote: Sandybestdog

Wow if you consider what Phil Ivey did a weak form of AP I want to know what kind of stuff you’re up to. Yea sure it’s a legit AP move, I just don’t like that it’s going on to the degree that it is. I don’t think getting 4 people together to play a 5k $30 earlier than is reasonable is on the same level as hole carding and card counting. Again not that it has to be. It’s just putting people like me at a disadvantage because I don’t have the ability to compete like that.

No, I don't consider that weak AP. You are the one who insists on "imaginativeness" or else you look down on it as illegit. Meanwhile, you're only solution to competing with other APs is to travel to other places where there are less APs. I'd say that's a smart move, but by your standards, that's about as unimaginative as it gets.

Whether someone calls out exactly what he is doing, or not, Darkov is not going to come in and admit it publicly, I mean, why would/should he.

Ancillary motive: A play shrouded in mystery remains brilliant.

Quote: MDawg

Whether someone calls out exactly what he is doing, or not, Darkov is not going to come in and admit it publicly, I mean, why would/should he.

Ancillary motive: A play shrouded in mystery remains brilliant.

Can I just point out one itsy bitsy thing.

I thought maybe you mistyped but its every post you call me Darkov with a v.

I dont why that's starting to annoy me lol. Its with a z. Darkoz.

Darkov sounds so Russian, not that there is any problem with Russian names but to paraphrase the classic 1939 movie:

"I am DarkOz"

Quote: Sandybestdog

Dollar wise we’re at the same level but if you’re running 4 cards on a must hit at the same level that I am you’re gonna get at least twice the freeplay. No must hit in AC is playable cause the teams and the Asians can always run multiple cards on them. So to get anything playable I have to drive and fly to far out places which takes a lot of time.

I don’t really care about what you do but don’t taut about some secret system you have have like you’re a genius unless you’re willing to share.

Dontcha know who the F you are talking to?

The Most Most Feared Secretive Well Known Bus Ridding AP On The East Coast. Just ask him.

Don't make him get on a bus and come after you.

Quote: stooge

No, I don't consider that weak AP. You are the one who insists on "imaginativeness" or else you look down on it as illegit. Meanwhile, you're only solution to competing with other APs is to travel to other places where there are less APs. I'd say that's a smart move, but by your standards, that's about as unimaginative as it gets.

I do what I have to to make a living.

Quote: MDawg

I assume he (meaning FCBLComish) didn't work in the casino credit department.

All casinos pull consumer credit in determining whether to issue credit, and some even run it yearly (soft pull) to make sure that you remain credit worthy. Most will do a hard pull of your credit when you first apply, but all will pull your credit whether hard or soft pull:
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/mdawg/blog/#post1785
If you read my blog, yes casinos also use an additional sort of credit bureau that revolves only around casino credit.
If you don't pay your markers off, and the matter ends up going to collection, or lawsuit, the resulting judgment will indeed affect your consumer credit, although these sorts of end results (collection, lawsuit, civil judgment) don't always happen. In Nevada, an unpaid market may also land your butt in jail, in which case bad credit would be the least of your problems.

Actually, I have the largest credit authorization limit at my property. I am very involved in the decision making process for almost all accounts. Your information is not accurate.

Quote: DRich

I have never noticed a query on my credit report from a casino. Usually they just want to talk to someone at your bank to get your balance information. Casinos don't usually extend credit, what they do is draft a check against your bank account for the amount.

It is not uncommon for the casino to ask your bank for the average monthly balance in your accounts over the last six months. They will then set your credit limit based on that number.

This is correct. Casinos do not generally pull credit reports. We are granting "credit" based on 2 things:

1) Do you have enough money in the bank to justify the credit extended?
2) Are you going to gamble an amount that justifies this credit extension.

You come in with you 850 credit score, and borrow $10,000 not intending to play. We are not looking to make no interest loans. We are looking to provide a service for those people who wish to gamble and not carry large amounts of cash.

Quote: FCBLComish

This is correct. Casinos do not generally pull credit reports. We are granting "credit" based on 2 things:

1) Do you have enough money in the bank to justify the credit extended?
2) Are you going to gamble an amount that justifies this credit extension.

You come in with you 850 credit score, and borrow $10,000 not intending to play. We are not looking to make no interest loans. We are looking to provide a service for those people who wish to gamble and not carry large amounts of cash.

When I was a regular in AC, a few people I met had lines of credit with three casinos and pretty much floated week long loans that turned into year long loans as Caesars marker paid off the Bally marker which had covered the Trump one from last week.

Quote: billryan

When I was a regular in AC, a few people I met had lines of credit with three casinos and pretty much floated week long loans that turned into year long loans as Caesars marker paid off the Bally marker which had covered the Trump one from last week.

IIRC that's illegal? I don't really know but I thought years ago some people here in Vegas got busted for doing just that. Apperantly they borrowed and floated millions from various casinos so they could make money from the interest.

Quote: AxelWolf

IIRC that's illegal? I don't really know but I thought years ago some people here in Vegas got busted for doing just that. Apperantly they borrowed and floated millions from various casinos so they could make money from the interest.

Its the subject of the book "the Boss Always Sits In The Back"

The mafia was floating the loans from different casinos

Playing doey-dont to change markers into cash

Then financing mafia crimes with it

Its a good book

Quote: FCBLComish

Casinos do not generally pull credit reports.

Really?

Quote: FCBLComish

Actually, I have the largest credit authorization limit at my property. I am very involved in the decision making process for almost all accounts. Your information is not accurate.

I see.

The information posted in this blog is 100% accurate
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/mdawg/blog/#post1785
Read it, and learn.

Where do you work? What city, what state, which casino? WHAT COUNTRY? lol If you work in any of the major casinos in Vegas and Tahoe, all of them pull consumer credit before granting a credit line. Caesars Ent. Sands LLC (Venetian/Palazzo). Station Casinos (Palms). Treasure Island. Wynn/Encore. Hard Rock. Cosmopolitan. Golden Nugget. M Resort (Penn Gaming). etc. etc.
All of them will pull your Experian credit via NCC, as explained in my blog above.

I have credit lines with most of the above. And if you go to most all of the casino websites, and click to get a credit line, you will notice that the application form is submitted via VisuaLimits LLC (aka NCC Reports).

The following verbiage is on all of the applications:

https://nccreports.com/application/?caesarspalace
I, the undersigned, hereby authorize and instruct Caesars Palace Las Vegas and its agent NRT Technologies, Inc. and VisuaLimits, LLC. ("NRT") and its affiliates to obtain consumer reports, to contact financial institutions, and to check my consumer credit, employment, bank and gaming history in order to evaluate my credit application as well as to update and/or review my account to provide services requested by me, as necessary or as required by law.

https://www.nccreports.com/application/?palmscasino
I, the undersigned, hereby authorize and instruct Palms Casino Resort and its agent NRT Technologies, Inc. and VisuaLimits, LLC. ("NRT") and its affiliates to obtain consumer reports, to contact financial institutions, and to check my consumer credit, employment, bank and gaming history in order to evaluate my credit application as well as to update and/or review my account to provide services requested by me, as necessary or as required by law.

https://www.nccreports.com/application/?cosmopolitan
I, the undersigned, hereby authorize and instruct Cosmopolitan and its agent NRT Technologies, Inc. and VisuaLimits, LLC. ("NRT") and its affiliates to obtain consumer reports, to contact financial institutions, and to check my consumer credit, employment, bank and gaming history in order to evaluate my credit application as well as to update and/or review my account to provide services requested by me, as necessary or as required by law.

https://www.nccreports.com/application/?mresort
I, the undersigned, hereby authorize and instruct M Resort Spa & Casino and its agent NRT Technologies, Inc. and VisuaLimits, LLC. ("NRT") and its affiliates to obtain consumer reports, to contact financial institutions, and to check my consumer credit, employment, bank and gaming history in order to evaluate my credit application as well as to update and/or review my account to provide services requested by me, as necessary or as required by law. I authorize M Resort Spa & Casino, NRT or its affiliates to verify such information through any source and to report any information to another casino, excluding credit report data obtained from a credit agency, and to exchange any information with any of the affiliates of the Company.

https://nccreports.com/application/?goldennuggetlv
I, the undersigned, hereby authorize and instruct Golden Nugget Las Vegas and its agent NRT Technologies, Inc. and VisuaLimits, LLC. ("NRT") and its affiliates to obtain consumer reports, to contact financial institutions, and to check my consumer credit, employment, bank and gaming history in order to evaluate my credit application as well as to update and/or review my account to provide services requested by me, as necessary or as required by law.

Same exact verbiage when you apply for a credit line at
Wynn
https://www.nccreports.com/application/?wynn
T.I.
https://www.nccreports.com/application/?treasureisland

Duh. "obtain consumer reports" "and to check my consumer credit"

Hard Rock
https://www.nccreports.com/application/?hardrocklasvegas
Hell, on the H.R. Vegas credit line application it warns you right at the top:
DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT BY APPLYING, WE WILL PULL A CREDIT REPORT?

etc. etc.

In any case, I am not speaking based on theory. I have credit lines currently at about a half dozen Vegas casinos, and back in the day I had credit lines at a dozen Vegas casinos and four Tahoe casinos, and all of them ran consumer credit to approve the line initially, and some kept doing soft pulls once a year or so, to make sure I was remaining credit worthy.

All that is fact.

If you can't tell us where you work, tell us what outfit your casino uses in making credit line decisions, because if it is VisuaLimits LLC (aka NCC Reports), then you are pulling consumer credit via Experian the moment someone applies for a credit line, whether you know it or not.

And, if your casino is not using VisuaLimits LLC (aka NCC Reports), most likely it is using some other outfit that is pulling consumer credit.

So, your telling me that a casino doesn't pull consumer credit to grant a credit line, is like telling the Pope that he's not Catholic. All I have to do is look at my Experian credit profile to note that for two years after each credit line I was granted, the inquiry from the casino remained. Hard pulls.

The only "exception," among the credit lines I have obtained recently, "exception" in a way, is Sands LLC (Venetian). Currently they do an Experian soft pull, so you might not notice the inquiry right away, but it is there, buried in the "inquiries shared only with you."

Quote: billryan

When I was a regular in AC, a few people I met had lines of credit with three casinos and pretty much floated week long loans that turned into year long loans as Caesars marker paid off the Bally marker which had covered the Trump one from last week.

We call that "rolling markers" and while it is not illegal, it is frowned upon. Depending on the long term value of the player we may or may not close or decrease the line under these circumstances.

Dawg,

I guess I have to yield to your extensive research. When I am given the information to make a decision to grant or deny credit, there is no credit score anywhere on the paperwork that I have seen. The information I use to make the decision is:

1) Bank Balance
2) Open lines of credit at other properties
3) Level of expected play
4) Player history with the property or other properties in the brand.

If they are pulling it, they are not giving it to me.

Since a marker is technically a bank check, we can just deposit it at the end of the grace period if no other arrangements have been made. If the check does not clear, we pursue legal recourse through the DA.

It's good to see into the process. One thing I was told at for example Cosmopolitan is that the package is all handed to my host, and he makes the final decision. But then on down the line when talking to my host on a casual phone call he didn't even seem to know exactly what my credit line limit was, he asked me, lol.

As far as running consumer credit I wish they wouldn't run it, because then for two years you have this inquiry on your credit that tells the world that you're a gambler. Or at least they could do a soft pull like Venetian/Palazzo, which then no one else could see.

Quote: MDawg

It's good to see into the process. One thing I was told at for example Cosmopolitan is that the package is all handed to my host, and he makes the final decision. But then on down the line when talking to my host on a casual phone call he didn't even seem to know exactly what my credit line limit was, he asked me, lol.

As far as running consumer credit I wish they wouldn't run it, because then for two years you have this inquiry on your credit that tells the world that you're a gambler. Or at least they could do a soft pull like Venetian/Palazzo, which then no one else could see.

The hosts may have authorization for smaller lines, but anything significant will need to be approved higher up the food chain.

I agree with you, that it's really not up to the host, even though they may make it seem that way. Probably the host does have some input though. My lines are not huge but not small either (mid five figures).

At one big Vegas casino too the host was assuring me that I'd be approved before he had even seen the application, but he was going based on past gaming history, because at that casino I had had a line that I had let go dormant during all the years I stopped playing (I took about a decade hiatus from any gaming), but still former player or not they still did all the checks on the banking, consumer credit, casino credit etc.

If I look closely at the VisuaLimits LLC / NCC Reports credit profiles (entitled to one free report a year just like any other credit bureau), the bank ratings, information about other open casino credit lines, and any casino derogs are already right there in the report so most of the work is already done all whoever looks at it has to do is just make a decision based on the NCC Report.

There is a bit of a steam roll effect just like credit cards - once you have one casino line and have handled it responsibly all the rest seem to want to jump on the band wagon and extend you credit too. But I think this is also how some people get into trouble. I had a friend who started off with $50K lines then started winning and the casinos within a year or two extended her to around $150K or so each and she had a blowout and couldn't pay. I lost touch with her six months or so after she got wiped out I don't know what happened to her, as of that time they hadn't yet turned her over to the Clark County D.A., but she was definitely worried about it.

It's interesting when you read the history, there are celebrities, athletes and multi-millionaires who are turned over to the D.A. for prosecution on unpaid markers, and can't seem to beat the case (other than by paying it all within the criminal court process), and then you have someone like Brandon "Greasy Bear" Davis or Joe Francis ("Girls Gone Wild") who don't pay and either somehow convince the courts that because they had the money in their accounts at the time of signing the markers, that they should merely be sued that there was no intent to defraud, or never get turned over to the D.A. in the first place and have the matter handled via civil courts only. This gets back to what I mentioned earlier about how the legal verbiage the casinos print on the markers has gotten longer and longer and more restrictive over the years to where all the loopholes that might stand in the way of collection or prosecution are being waived away with your signature on each marker check.

Some get turned over to the DA, and some don't. It all depends on whether or not we feel there is any future for that player.

Quote: FCBLComish

Some get turned over to the DA, and some don't. It all depends on whether or not we feel there is any future for that player.

That's classic. If you think they have a few more shekels you can net out you will delay their prosecution. Nope, you don't work for a group of predators.....lol. Pretty sickening actually. May you sleep well at night.

Quote: FCBLComish

Some get turned over to the DA, and some don't. It all depends on whether or not we feel there is any future for that player.

Haha we will overlook your breaking of the law because we sense we can suck a few more dollars out of you.

Quote: FCBLComish

Some get turned over to the DA, and some don't. It all depends on whether or not we feel there is any future for that player.

laughing my ass off

A guy who gives you a million dollars a year isn't going to get prosecuted over $15,000. A tourist who is worth next to nothing will. That's just good business.

So people leave $5,000 in front money at each of their 3 favorite casinos? Hopefully that can be turned into $55,000 on each visit.

So casinos are not legally obligated to report such a crime?

If not, this sounds like they open themselves up to some employee/player shenanigans.

You owe 50k, just send me 10k in bitcoin and I will make sure we forgive the marker.

Everyone is under discretion as to whether to file criminal charges or not, from the shopkeeper who declines to prosecute a shoplifter to the girl who just walks away when some jerk grabs her behind at a nightclub. There seem to be scores of women whom Pres. Grump raped who didn't file criminal charges, at least not right when the incidents happened.

Quote: AxelWolf

You owe 50k, just send me 10k in bitcoin and I will make sure we forgive the marker.

Finally , Axel reveals an AP play to the forum

Quote: AxelWolf

So casinos are not legally obligated to report such a crime?

If not, this sounds like they open themselves up to some employee/player shenanigans.

You owe 50k, just send me 10k in bitcoin and I will make sure we forgive the marker.

Oh, the marker is not forgiven. There are 2 options when you have someone owing you money:

1) Try to collect the money
2) Call the D.A. and press criminal charges

Which one depends on whether or not you plan to have some sort of relationship with the person in the future.