"Golden Touch".....downloaded video....
July 25th, 2014 at 9:37:09 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonI would sum up my feelings on DI this way: would you rather throw the dice trying to hit the numbers you are betting on or not?
All players "try" to win, i.e. to "hit the numbers you are betting on."
But at the end of the day, it's just "hope."
Hoping to hit the number you are betting on is the name of the game.
But the name of the game is not at issue; the question is whether people actually CAN derandomize the game of craps via controlled dice shooting so as to reach the level of AP.
Thus far: there is no proof of this proposition, other than anecdotal evidence.
Absent proof, it is unproven.
"What, me worry?"
July 25th, 2014 at 10:08:30 AM
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Quote: MrVThus far: there is no proof of this proposition, other than anecdotal evidence.
Absent proof, it is unproven.
Transitively, if you believe you are doing it, you are possibly just very lucky!
There are people who have won multiple life-changing jackpots who believe in divine intervention when it comes to gambling too.
People with enough money that they don't have to work any longer don't depend on a sound belief system in order to survive. Nor do many other folks.
One of the more interesting facets of my research is how after doing work to uncover the theory of how things work, I found far more people thinking they could do this that had zero clue about the work I was doing than I did people who were interested in the things that I was learning about recording both left and right dice for example and were experiencing lifetime wins and simply wanted greater lifetime wins by doing more work.
There is a threshold of "that's too much work" for every different person who believes that they are performing AP craps play. That threshold is incredible low for most of the people. IE: most people want to believe but struggle to understand the fallacy of the iron cross or 204 across being the best way to theoretically perform AP craps play due to the high edge per roll.
aahigh.com
July 25th, 2014 at 10:25:11 AM
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Ahigh - Been watching your website for awhile. Subscribe to your Youtube channel. would like to see you post more data, throws. Any reason there haven't been any posts? I enjoy it, seems to have come to an end.
Ah.....Dice control. I'm on the fence on this one. I do see how a perfectly thrown set of dice become random once they hit the felt and diamonds. On the other hand, I have been practicing for 5 years and never have had such success as I have had in the last three years. I am extremely comfortable on SR1 throwing right handed on a 12 foot table. I am up a decent amount over that time period. However, I have absolutely no "mojo" on larger tables. I play for small amounts and progress as the roll continues. I am having a blast doing it and have run into several DI who may not have monumental rolls but will certainly make a point or two and several numbers before sevening out. Not looking to make a living doing this but am enjoying the ride until the bubble bursts...
robchell
Ah.....Dice control. I'm on the fence on this one. I do see how a perfectly thrown set of dice become random once they hit the felt and diamonds. On the other hand, I have been practicing for 5 years and never have had such success as I have had in the last three years. I am extremely comfortable on SR1 throwing right handed on a 12 foot table. I am up a decent amount over that time period. However, I have absolutely no "mojo" on larger tables. I play for small amounts and progress as the roll continues. I am having a blast doing it and have run into several DI who may not have monumental rolls but will certainly make a point or two and several numbers before sevening out. Not looking to make a living doing this but am enjoying the ride until the bubble bursts...
robchell
July 25th, 2014 at 10:36:41 AM
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Quote: MrVAll players "try" to win, i.e. to "hit the numbers you are betting on."
But is the player really trying? Or is the player simply hurling the dice and hoping? That is the difference.
I want to bet on the player who is trying.
If you think there is no difference -- then that's fine with me. It's your money.
I, on the other hand, would rather bet on a player who puts in an effort to hit the numbers. He might not have any ability at all, but at least he tries.
Now -- what does trying include?
It includes players who set dice and lob them. Or players who set dice and try to have a "managed roll" or some sort of a controlled -- not a wild throw.
If as you believe, MrV, that craps is strictly a random game, then there is no harm whatsoever in betting on the players who "try".
Proof of dice influencing will never be established, and the debate will rage on just as there is debate over the lone gunman theory in the JFK assassination.
I will believe that dice influencing is possible, just as I believe the Warren Commission Report.
I will never believe that you MrV will ever be able to influence dice. You pretty much told us you wouldnt even bother to try.
And by the way -- there is no such thing as "dice control," but I accept that some people use "dice control" to only mean "dice influencing." I wish they wouldnt use the terms interchangeably but they do.
July 25th, 2014 at 10:40:24 AM
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Quote: robchellI do see how a perfectly thrown set of dice become random once they hit the felt and diamonds.
Ummm... the idea is not to hit the diamonds. The idea is to hit the wall just below the diamonds. And a soft throw can remain on axis if the dice hit the table on their edges and not on their points. It really is physics.
July 25th, 2014 at 10:45:42 AM
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Quote: AlanMendelsonI would sum up my feelings on DI this way: would you rather throw the dice trying to hit the numbers you are betting on or not?[/
Any chances you could sum them up in less than another 276 posts?Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
July 25th, 2014 at 10:54:11 AM
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Quote: Buzzard
Any chances you could sum them up in less than another 276 posts?[/q
Part of the problem is that the critics of dice influencing are clueless to what it's all about.
July 25th, 2014 at 10:58:08 AM
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I'll take that as a NO.
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
July 25th, 2014 at 2:33:47 PM
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I think if the critics of dice influencing took the time to read Sharpshooter's book which clearly goes through the physics of dice influencing, a lot of the comments that DI is "impossible" would go away.
What I would really like to see -- if it is possible -- is for someone to post how Sharpshooter has the DI theory all wrong?
There is no question and there is nothing to debate that most people don't have the physical skill to throw dice properly to achieve DI. The question is can ANYONE do it? Theoretically it can be done -- unless you can show me how Sharpshooter has it wrong.
That is really what the debate about DI should focus on: is Sharpshooter's book accurate in its claims, including physics and math? Did anyone else read it besides me?
What I would really like to see -- if it is possible -- is for someone to post how Sharpshooter has the DI theory all wrong?
There is no question and there is nothing to debate that most people don't have the physical skill to throw dice properly to achieve DI. The question is can ANYONE do it? Theoretically it can be done -- unless you can show me how Sharpshooter has it wrong.
That is really what the debate about DI should focus on: is Sharpshooter's book accurate in its claims, including physics and math? Did anyone else read it besides me?
July 25th, 2014 at 3:38:12 PM
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Theoretically it can be done -- unless you can show me "
Editorial Correction DI Theoretically it CAN'T be done -- unless you can show me
PS More threads will not make it come true either. LOL
Editorial Correction DI Theoretically it CAN'T be done -- unless you can show me
PS More threads will not make it come true either. LOL
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
July 25th, 2014 at 4:37:28 PM
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It can be done, and if you are controlling the dice, all other things remaining a constant, exactly HALF the time you are controlling the dice, you are making the results unfavorable.
Dice control is more than just affecting the outcome to be non-random. You have to affect the outcome to be non-random in a FAVORABLE manner.
This is a subject I fail to see talked about often enough, frankly. There's more faith that what the experts say is truth than the facts support.
The truth is that if there is ANY non-randomness to ANYONE's shot, you might get better results being a math person and seeking non-random shooters and possibly even knowing more what to expect from each shooter than the shooters know themselves.
I haven't profiled my results in so long and I shoot so many different ways on so many different tables I have no idea what to expect from my shot at any given moment.
Someone who watches a person do a controlled shot and shoots 8 hardways in a row might start hopping all the hardways and the hi-lo every roll and make a fortune if they bet that it's a trend and not random and it turns out they are right.
It's possible that as soon as a given controlled shooter starts betting big, their shot become less effective from being nervous.
But the point is that advantage play craps requires more than just a non-random shot. You need a non-random shot and some bets that complement it. And you need a shooter that doesn't poo in his pants and screw it all up when the bets get big enough to matter, too.
Dice control is more than just affecting the outcome to be non-random. You have to affect the outcome to be non-random in a FAVORABLE manner.
This is a subject I fail to see talked about often enough, frankly. There's more faith that what the experts say is truth than the facts support.
The truth is that if there is ANY non-randomness to ANYONE's shot, you might get better results being a math person and seeking non-random shooters and possibly even knowing more what to expect from each shooter than the shooters know themselves.
I haven't profiled my results in so long and I shoot so many different ways on so many different tables I have no idea what to expect from my shot at any given moment.
Someone who watches a person do a controlled shot and shoots 8 hardways in a row might start hopping all the hardways and the hi-lo every roll and make a fortune if they bet that it's a trend and not random and it turns out they are right.
It's possible that as soon as a given controlled shooter starts betting big, their shot become less effective from being nervous.
But the point is that advantage play craps requires more than just a non-random shot. You need a non-random shot and some bets that complement it. And you need a shooter that doesn't poo in his pants and screw it all up when the bets get big enough to matter, too.
aahigh.com
July 25th, 2014 at 8:06:46 PM
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Odd, but the few times I've see a DI'er, he was always betting $5.usd chips, not $100.usd or more. Same with the place bets. If it in fact works, don't you think they would hit the casino and then flee after cashing out?
July 27th, 2014 at 9:45:01 AM
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Quote: NokTangOdd, but the few times I've see a DI'er, he was always betting $5.usd chips, not $100.usd or more. Same with the place bets. If it in fact works, don't you think they would hit the casino and then flee after cashing out?
I have learned enough to assert this much: most people who think they are aren't. Maybe a new acronym is necessary. Instead of DI maybe Dice Influencer Pretender, (or DIP).
If there are real DI's you can bet that they are not talking about it and they are playing it down saying things like "it's just for style" and/or "something to make me feel better about all the money that I have lost doing this."
You can tell who is a DIP because they talk about pressing and pressing and pressing (there's not much use to wasting rolls on small sized bets) and they don't like to talk about their win frequency.
A good AP craps player should, in theory, win only slightly more often than half of his sessions and only be casually interested in that single sessions' results.
I would also expect a very good DI to bet only a single number at a time (max odds on the pass line) which is something that I rarely see ANYONE do except new players who don't know much about the ways you can bet.
The game becomes a BORING GRIND on BIG BETS when you are trying to get the most of your theoretical advantage. And when you have $1000 in action, you're expecting on average $10 to $15 per roll in profit on average. Count your rolls and count your profit, you might roll ten times on a good roll and leave with $100 to $150 with $1000 in action. That's my view of what it SHOULD look like on average. But in a given instance, that could be double or triple in one session and losing another session with a $1500 buy-in.
But here's what I see, in general: two types of players. Math players and superstitious players. That's pretty much it. DIPs are basically superstitious players who have a superstition about how they throw the dice based on doing it and it led to favorable results and forgetting about the times it didn't work by blaming something not related to the shooting.
aahigh.com
July 27th, 2014 at 9:55:53 AM
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I agree they should all be called DIP's. Some people already call them that but, they add hits to the end.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
July 27th, 2014 at 10:03:05 AM
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DIPs are pretty harmless, though, as they graze at the craps trough with their eyes bright and their grip firm.
Certainly no worse than drunks barfing on the layout.
Certainly no worse than drunks barfing on the layout.
"What, me worry?"
September 24th, 2014 at 3:51:07 PM
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You can say the very same things about card counters or Poker players.
Then why did Edward O. Thorpe write Beat the Dealer? Why did Doyle Brunson write Super System (Original title: How I Made Over a Million Dollars Playing Poker)? Fact is: we like bragging about our successes. Secondly, even back in the late 1950s -- early 1960s when all the Blackjack games were single deck dealt down to the last card, when dropping a Black on the felt even though you've been playing Silver for an hour didn't raise an eye brow, card counting produced a razor thin edge over the house. Even though Thorpe filled his book with brags of how he emptied out chip trays and won tens of thousands, fact is: he got damned lucky. We keep hearing about the "millions" the famous MIT team won, but not about the millions they dropped. They won millions plus a few hundred grand more than the millions lost. Card counting is a long hard grind. Writing and selling books about card counting is a helluvalot easier.
It's the same way with dice influencing. If this produced an obvious, overwhelming edge, you can be sure the casinos would have done something about this, like, for example, putting the dice in shaker cups that pass from player to player. It's a long slow grind. Writing books, or running classes, is a good deal easier.
Same complaints about card counting classes. You aren't gonna learn it in ten easy lessons. A hundred hard lessons might not be enough. There's Basic Strategy to memorize, point count tag values to memorize and recall instantly, how to count down a deck and do it quickly and accurately, then how to do it under game conditions, how to convert running counts to true counts, and, once that's done, how to do it during live play at BJ tables filled with tourists, under the watchful eyes of dealers and pit crews, distracting cocktail waitresses without dropping the count, all the while looking like you're not counting. Hundreds of hours of practice? You betcha! Even that may not be enough, and maybe it takes over a thousand hours to get good enough at it to the point where you're a genuine threat to the casinos' bottom lines instead of being a threat to your 'roll.
Wannabe counters vastly out number the successful ones. Always have.
Same as counters. And Poker players. The vast majority are dreamers, not do-ers. They don't have the stick-to-itivness to put in the practice, or the discipline to keep working at it regardless of how repetitive and boring it is. They breeze through a book, take a few hours of some class, and they're ready to fly off to Vegas to take on black table action, or charge into the biggest, baddest No Limit game in Bobby's Room. We all know what happens next.
Why should dice influencing be any different?
Quote: LarrySif DI's really existed, my guess would be that they wouldnt be teaching classes, writing books, or going on websites crowing about their talent, They would be quietly making their money at their "craft".
Then why did Edward O. Thorpe write Beat the Dealer? Why did Doyle Brunson write Super System (Original title: How I Made Over a Million Dollars Playing Poker)? Fact is: we like bragging about our successes. Secondly, even back in the late 1950s -- early 1960s when all the Blackjack games were single deck dealt down to the last card, when dropping a Black on the felt even though you've been playing Silver for an hour didn't raise an eye brow, card counting produced a razor thin edge over the house. Even though Thorpe filled his book with brags of how he emptied out chip trays and won tens of thousands, fact is: he got damned lucky. We keep hearing about the "millions" the famous MIT team won, but not about the millions they dropped. They won millions plus a few hundred grand more than the millions lost. Card counting is a long hard grind. Writing and selling books about card counting is a helluvalot easier.
It's the same way with dice influencing. If this produced an obvious, overwhelming edge, you can be sure the casinos would have done something about this, like, for example, putting the dice in shaker cups that pass from player to player. It's a long slow grind. Writing books, or running classes, is a good deal easier.
Quote:I dont have a problem with DI's. I have a problem with people who claim they are DI's that sell their methods for hundreds of dollars without full disclosure upfront that it will involve hundreds of hours of practice first before you even have a chance.
Same complaints about card counting classes. You aren't gonna learn it in ten easy lessons. A hundred hard lessons might not be enough. There's Basic Strategy to memorize, point count tag values to memorize and recall instantly, how to count down a deck and do it quickly and accurately, then how to do it under game conditions, how to convert running counts to true counts, and, once that's done, how to do it during live play at BJ tables filled with tourists, under the watchful eyes of dealers and pit crews, distracting cocktail waitresses without dropping the count, all the while looking like you're not counting. Hundreds of hours of practice? You betcha! Even that may not be enough, and maybe it takes over a thousand hours to get good enough at it to the point where you're a genuine threat to the casinos' bottom lines instead of being a threat to your 'roll.
Quote:but when you think about it. The more poorly prepared new students of DI that flood into the market and fail...the beter for the handful of real DI. Those poorly trained people fill up the tables and let the floorman see that setting doesnt work...thereby letting the real DI's to blend in with the inexperienced newbies...shielding them from immediate heat. These newbies are just cannon fodder. They are running interference without knowing it.
Wannabe counters vastly out number the successful ones. Always have.
Quote:I will concede there may be one out of 10 thousand students of DI that will devote the time and effort needed to be successful at DI....maybe. But the averge joe buying the books and seminars doesnt have a chance.....and of course they are not told this ahead of time. In the end..Buyer beware.
Same as counters. And Poker players. The vast majority are dreamers, not do-ers. They don't have the stick-to-itivness to put in the practice, or the discipline to keep working at it regardless of how repetitive and boring it is. They breeze through a book, take a few hours of some class, and they're ready to fly off to Vegas to take on black table action, or charge into the biggest, baddest No Limit game in Bobby's Room. We all know what happens next.
Why should dice influencing be any different?
September 24th, 2014 at 3:55:12 PM
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Quote: ImpmonYou can say the very same things about card counters or Poker players. . . Why should dice influencing be any different?
While your query is rhetorical, I'll answer anyway.
Because unlike DI, card counting has been proven mathematically / objectively to provide true AP.
There is ZERO proof that DI is a viable form of AP.
"What, me worry?"
September 24th, 2014 at 5:44:45 PM
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Quote: MrVThere is ZERO proof that DI is a viable form of AP.
I'm withholding judgement on this. Why not give it a try? If I can skew the probabilities of hitting/not hitting sevens enough to move the house edge into positive territory, that ought to show up in records of dice roll outcomes, should it not? What's the cost? A few silly sit-coms or "reality" shows that didn't get watched? A missed football game whose score I wouldn't remember a couple of days later anyway?
