"Golden Touch".....downloaded video....

Quote: AlanMendelson

"Dice Setting" is what you do when you arrange the dice before you pick them up. I see people all the time setting dice and then picking them up and shaking them in their hand. Do you think that is "dice influencing"?

I use the terms interchangeably.

All dice setters are attempting to influence the dice.

So you argue now that there are "dice influencers" who do NOT first engage in "dice setting?"

Curious.

Quote: MrV

All dice setters are attempting to influence the dice.

Don't forget the grunters, the snappers, and the talkers ala "COME ON DICE!"

They are attempting as well. Are those also then "DI" to you?

No.

I don't believe in dice influencing, with one limited exception: dead cat bounce.

Never saw it happen at a craps table, but I've read about them and I accept that it could result in the outcome being nonrandom.

But other than that,shooters can fancy themselves to be dice setters, dice influencers, or dice controllers: macht nichts.

At the end of the day they're all just wishful thinkers.

Quote: MrV

No.

I don't believe in dice influencing, with one limited exception: dead cat bounce.

Never saw it happen at a craps table, but I've read about them and I accept that it could result in the outcome being nonrandom.

But other than that,shooters can fancy themselves to be dice setters, dice influencers, or dice controllers: macht nichts.

At the end of the day they're all just wishful thinkers.

I think your belief in "dead cat bounce" as you describe it is equally wishful thinking.

Quote: Ahigh

I think your belief in "dead cat bounce" as you describe it is equally wishful thinking.

You may well be right.

Again, I have never SEEN it happen.

Theoretically, IF the dice stay on axis, and softly and squarely land on the felt and tumble ever so lightly and kiss the wall: then MAYBE DI would occur.

But yeah, it's a big "maybe."

Quote: MrV

IF the dice stay on axis, and softly and squarely land on the felt

Defies the laws of physics.

Quote: NokTang

It remains sexist and what they call sexual harassment to refer to her in such a way. Many make the obvious assumption she had sex with someone to get such a great job.

Your (and people like you) concept of saying such things are sexiest is insane. Can a person not notice that a person in a position of authority is a women if for no other reason that to note it? I would imagine that the fact that she was good looking is what made him take note. Is there really something wrong with noticing a good looking woman now a days without being sexist.

Quote: MrV

I use the terms interchangeably.

All dice setters are attempting to influence the dice.

So you argue now that there are "dice influencers" who do NOT first engage in "dice setting?"

Curious.

Are you serious? What a ridiculous question.

But just in case you really were serious and need an explanation, here it is:

Anyone can set dice. Even random shooters set dice. Someone who sets the dice but then picks them up and throws them wildly cannot possibly influence the dice. Someone who sets dice and then shakes them in their hand cannot possibly influence the dice.

On the other hand, someone who sets dice and then carefully throws the dice with some sort of discipline and intent has a chance to influence the dice.

Quote: NokTang

Defies the laws of physics.

Would you mind explaining why or how this defies the law of physics?

By the way, you should read Sharpshooter's book. It's all about the physics.

Quote: VCUSkyhawk

Your (and people like you) concept of saying such things are sexiest is insane. Can a person not notice that a person in a position of authority is a women if for no other reason that to note it? I would imagine that the fact that she was good looking is what made him take note. Is there really something wrong with noticing a good looking woman now a days without being sexist.

Thank you.

But keep in mind that NokTang will disagree with anything I say. If I say the grass is green, he will challenge me and might even say it's red.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Anyone can set dice.

and no one better at that than me!
Harrahs Rincon allowed me to use both hands to set them. I still used one hand to mostly short roll the table, They did not seem at all to care and I had on no makeup.

wait,
even those without arms can set dice?
Can they still shoot the dice with their foot?
At Sally's Casino they sure can do

Quote: AlanMendelson

Someone who sets the dice but then picks them up and throws them wildly cannot possibly influence the dice.

yes they can
I know for those males over 30 it is hard to wrap your head around that

Quote: AlanMendelson

Someone who sets dice and then shakes them in their hand cannot possibly influence the dice.

sure they can
this is not fun any more you saying it can only be done "your way" or the highway

Quote: AlanMendelson

On the other hand, someone who sets dice and then carefully throws the dice with some sort of discipline and intent has a chance to influence the dice.

is this the only way?

I go by your last name on this
I disagree that it is the only way. (you said "a chance" that means one chance, one way)

see you at Rincon
Sally

Harrah's Rincon... where there is a CARD CRAPS game. You throw two dice which determine which two cards are flipped over. Because your toss doesn't determine the fate of any bets, they don't care what you do with the dice there. One time, just for the heck of it, I did a slide there just to see if they had a rod under the layout. No rod. No one said a word about my slide (except my son who said "Dad, don't do that"). The only concern of the dealers is that when you do throw the dice that you don't disturb any chips on the layout -- so aim for an empty spot on the table, please.

Everyone who tosses the dice is influencing the dice. Some "Professional DI's" have some AIR control, IT STOPS THERE. Once the dice hit the table all bets are off and randomness takes over. WATCH THE SLOW MOTION VIDEOS.

I admit there are some people who have a very nice looking shot, almost convincing but if no one can make money in the long run with their dice skills. There is really no point in discussing it.

How many years are going to go by before there is proof someone can alter the the chances of a 7 not showing?

Are there any slow motion videos that show influence?

Quote: AxelWolf

Are there any slow motion videos that show influence?

I have slow motion video of dice landing where one die stays on axis for the entire bounce. Of course the debate is whether this happened randomly or if it happens more often on a specific type of shot than randomly thrown dice.

http://www.goodshooter.com/ahigh/mp4/rolls.zip

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/15425-ahighs-autorecord-software/5/#post278949

One video is still just one sample and still means nothing except that something is possible.

It is also possible for the dice to stop on the felt without bouncing one tiny bit.

But is this a random result, or is this something that can happen more often based on the throw? That's the more important question in both cases.

As I said I know three true DIs and I can safely say two of the three do not have slo-mo vids on YouTube.

Now we're getting back to the point about why would those who really can do it show the world they can?

Videos 22, 18, and 33 are of particular interest. 22 and 18 are stacker shots. 33 shows a bounce that could come up short and stay on axis if it hadn't hit the wall. Bounces that bounce straight up and don't hit the wall but appear to the naked eye to be hitting the back wall are some possible territory to explore in terms of the 33 behavior.

I honestly don't have time to keep pursuing this and I don't have evidence that any dice control ever works, and I am definitely not a lifetime winner at craps.

If anyone thinks I'm a DI, I'm a bigger gambler than a DI and my gambling destroys any advantage I might otherwise have.

There's no question that I am not a practicing DI. I am a loser when it comes to being ahead lifetime. And I keep track so I know!

" I am a loser when it comes to being ahead lifetime." Personal insult. Babs , do your stuff !

Fair is fair. I got 3 days.

For any other DI wanna-be's out there too, it's REALLY hard to come out ahead even if you count minimum wage for time spent on the endeavor!

Best to keep it for entertainment is my view after dumping an enormous amount of time and energy into trying.

Anybody who takes the class and it appears to work to win a years' salary in less than a year, my hat is off to you. Just be careful not to give it back because it could just be good luck!!!

Quote: Ahigh

I honestly don't have time to keep pursuing this and I don't have evidence that any dice control ever works, and I am definitely not a lifetime winner at craps.

If anyone thinks I'm a DI, I'm a bigger gambler than a DI and my gambling destroys any advantage I might otherwise have.

There's no question that I am not a practicing DI. I am a loser when it comes to being ahead lifetime. And I keep track so I know!

I am very surprised to see this now. When did you change your public persona about being a DI and winner?

Quote: AlanMendelson

I am very surprised to see this now. When did you change your public persona about being a DI and winner?

I'm not sure I changed much. I still think it might be possible to get an advantaged shot. But as far as coming out ahead, I have a lot of overhead.

I've never been in the fantasy land that time spent at the craps table is smarter than time spent actually earning money using the skill I worked so hard to build up in school and in my career.

Craps has ALWAYS been a pursuit of entertainment for me, and NEVER been a source of income.

From my perspective, that has never changed. If you can explain where you got the idea that I was an AP making extra money on the side playing craps, let me know.

But even if I were doing that, I would have to be making more money in the long run than my job. I've never been able to come close for any given year.

I came out ahead last year. Maybe $1,000. That was a technical accomplishment. But $1,000 of my time is a lot less than a year of my free time.

Alan is much more focused on VP these days than craps.

I wonder why?

Heck, they say to "go home with the one that brung ya," and he DID get married at a craps table at Caesars.

Quote: VCUSkyhawk

Your (and people like you) concept of saying such things are sexiest is insane. Can a person not notice that a person in a position of authority is a women if for no other reason that to note it? I would imagine that the fact that she was good looking is what made him take note. Is there really something wrong with noticing a good looking woman now a days without being sexist.

Yes, in the work place, it is wrong, even if you are a customer, unless of course it's a disgusting "strip" club or house of prostitution.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Thank you.

But keep in mind that NokTang will disagree with anything I say. If I say the grass is green, he will challenge me and might even say it's red.

That isn't true Alan. Your stories as I said, are fun to read. The fact you mix in fiction to make them more interesting is okay as long as the reader knows that ahead of time. You are entertaining people and that is fine by me.

Quote: NokTang

The fact you mix in fiction to make them more interesting is okay as long as the reader knows that ahead of time. You are entertaining people and that is fine by me.

That was a very pleasant way to call me a liar.

Quote: Ahigh

If you can explain where you got the idea that I was an AP making extra money on the side playing craps, let me know.

I never said that you were an AP making extra money on the side playing craps. I just remember all of your posts about your wins and your throws and being a good shooter and how you were hitting hardways. I never saw an accounting, nor do I think you ever reported on overall earnings.

Quote: NokTang

Yes, in the work place, it is wrong, even if you are a customer, unless of course it's a disgusting "strip" club or house of prostitution.

Really? Are standards in your country that much different from the United States?

Quote: MrV

Alan is much more focused on VP these days than craps.

I wonder why?

Heck, they say to "go home with the one that brung ya," and he DID get married at a craps table at Caesars.

I can make money at VP. I never claimed to make money at craps.

In fact, I think this is something you might appreciate.

In more than 20 years of playing craps I have walked away from a craps table with a session profit of $5,000 or more only five times -- and twice it was because of hitting 6 points on the fire bet.

Yet, playing $5 Aces and Faces or Bonus Poker, session wins of $5,000 or more come frequently.

And it is only because of craps that I have annual losses at casino gambling.

So you ARE making a regular profit playing VP?

Interesting.

I have played VP, and poker, but don't much care for either game.

Do you play VP in order to win money, or for pleasure?

I read Rob Singer and others posting about VP, and it just leaves me flat.

Man against Machine, or Man against Craps Table?

We make our choices.

Quote: NokTang

Yes, in the work place, it is wrong, even if you are a customer, unless of course it's a disgusting "strip" club or house of prostitution.

Ok, just curious though. What is your opinion of party pits? Are they wrong for shakin dat ass? Or is it only me that is wrong for appreciating it?

Quote: Ahigh

I honestly don't have time to keep pursuing this and I don't have evidence that any dice control ever works, and I am definitely not a lifetime winner at craps.

If anyone thinks I'm a DI, I'm a bigger gambler than a DI and my gambling destroys any advantage I might otherwise have.

There's no question that I am not a practicing DI. I am a loser when it comes to being ahead lifetime. And I keep track so I know!

I'm very sorry to hear this. (Poor Alan, now has nothing to argue and rattle your cage about). IMO you were one of the most dedicated, thoural, detailed, interesting Technologically advance craps DI advocate around. Software, expensive cameras, Ahigh show, challenges, website, craps table and chips, custom made caliper and other gadgets, the list goes on. I really thought your show could have been much more.

I respect the fact you where NOT doing it to sell classes, books, advertising or get money from people. You wanted to find out the truth.

I think it drove you semi insane at the time you were deep into your .....obsession?


I'm a bit confused however, I'm fairly certain you were very proud and confident of your very good SSR numbers at one time(numbers that would give you a huge advantage and would show up quickly). My question is (and this may help some of the other people who have been taken in my short term results) Did your SSR numbers drop off? What exactly happen? With numbers like you were touting, a little bit of gambling wouldn't really cause an over all failure.

Quote: MrV

So you ARE making a regular profit playing VP?

When I was playing double double bonus, my losses were what were expected. In other words, they matched the expected return of the game.

At Aces and Faces, and at another game called Royal Aces Bonus in the past two years I have had better than expected returns because I hit more than the expected number of royals (or quad Aces in the case of Royal Aces Bonus).

And yes, what I won at video poker I lost playing craps. And this is why about a year ago I changed my strategy for craps to playing the passline with the fire bet. I don't always stick to it, but it's really a good way to play. In the last year making only the passline and the fire bet I was at a table where two different shooters threw five numbers almost back-to-back.

I have never advocated craps as a way for the average player to make money. You, MrV seem to be all over my case because I believe that DI is possible.

Quote: AxelWolf

(Poor Alan, now has nothing to argue and rattle your cage about).

It's the reporter in me... just questioning to get the whole story.

Speaking of which... thanks for bringing this specific question up:

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm a bit confused however, I'm fairly certain you were very proud and confident of your very good SSR numbers at one time(numbers that would give you a huge advantage and would show up quickly). My question is (and this may help some of the other people who have been taken in my short term results) Did your SSR numbers drop off? What exactly happen? With numbers like you were touting, a little bit of gambling wouldn't really cause an over all failure.

I may not be done, but for the short term I am. I'm just too busy with what I am doing for work to really put time into my automated video capture and slow motion analysis. I am doing what I think is way cooler stuff for my current company, and I am very hopeful that the hard-core gamblers and the hard-core advantage players from this site will agree after G2E that my decision to focus on my professional career was the right thing to do.

We are still just getting started at work with what we are doing, but it just makes the whole research into dice control a much lower priority for me.

Anyone that isn't already signed up for G2E, let me know (PM) and I will get you a pass to come and check out what we're doing at the show and hopefully you'll agree that I have been prioritizing my tasks properly.

Quote: Ahigh

I may not be done, but for the short term I am. I'm just too busy with what I am doing for work to really put time into my automated video capture and slow motion analysis. I am doing what I think is way cooler stuff for my current company, and I am very hopeful that the hard-core gamblers and the hard-core advantage players from this site will agree after G2E that my decision to focus on my professional career was the right thing to do.

We are still just getting started at work with what we are doing, but it just makes the whole research into dice control a much lower priority for me.

Anyone that isn't already signed up for G2E, let me know (PM) and I will get you a pass to come and check out what we're doing at the show and hopefully you'll agree that I have been prioritizing my tasks properly.

I agree your company should come before craps. (You should start a thread talking more about what you are doing.) Sometimes its good to take a step back, it can have a sobering effect. Taking a step back seems to have brought a calm over you, at least as for as your demeanor on here goes.


I'm glad you have not given up on craps. I may not believe DI is absolutely possible but I am not 1000% sure its impossible.



BTW Thank you for the tickets.

Ah yes: surfing the break where the waves of Reality and Fantasy clash.

Kowabunga, dude.

Axelwolf





I'm glad you have not given up on craps. I may not believe DI is absolutely possible but I am not 1000% sure its impossible.

I have a question, in order to make any determination i would first ask you a question... " what is your definition of a DI???
what would one have to do ....exactly????

Now as you ponder your answer i add that the best in anything are not at their best every day, 24 hours , so take that into
consideration when you answer... is craps the one activity that you would require 100% perfection, 100% of the time


Dicesetter

Quote: dicesitter

Axelwolf





I'm glad you have not given up on craps. I may not believe DI is absolutely possible but I am not 1000% sure its impossible.

I have a question, in order to make any determination i would first ask you a question... " what is your definition of a DI???
what would one have to do ....exactly????

Now as you ponder your answer i add that the best in anything are not at their best every day, 24 hours , so take that into
consideration when you answer... is craps the one activity that you would require 100% perfection, 100% of the time


Dicesetter

I talked with the Palms today about all the changes over the last couple of years on their tables. One of the interesting parts of the conversation was as the box man related to the changes from no side bets to fire bet to bonus craps and back to no side bets, he said that people were betting the bonus craps bets exclusively and that the casino was losing money to those bets. The box said that he suggested they require the players to also make pass line bets, but instead they just got rid of the bonus craps bets.

The point of bringing this up, and it's more frequent with the fire bet, is that many casinos come to the conclusion that after they lose for a couple of months in a row that they will continue to lose by operating the bets in question that lost for a couple of months in a row.

Sometimes it takes three, four, or even five months of 24/7 operation of a craps pit in order to come out ahead for the house. This isn't just one player, and it's not just a few hours of play, it's months of continuous play that can be a loser for the house.

It's hard for some players to wrap their heads around the exposure that a single casino can have from a craps table.

By the end of the year, the craps table, on average here in the state of Nevada, is going to make a million dollars per table. That averages out to about $2,700 per day. But there can be swings where the casino is losing an average of $2,000 per day for months at a time without anything being wrong at all.

Each throw of the dice is the random event. And when players on the table are commonly betting in the same direction (mostly the pass line with odds and so on) the dice are going to control the swings of the entire table.

So when you get to looking at it, at most you're getting 100 events per hour times 24 hours or 2400 events. That's about a dollar of revenue per throw of the dice on average for the average craps table as a minimum expectation for the house (few tables are operated 100 throws per hour 24 hours a day).

When the table dumps for months on end, some CASINOS conclude that there is something wrong with the table or with the dice or with the math behind the bets.

When you realize this, it might be easier to understand that the "long term" is longer than many people, including those in the pit, can understand and relate to.

Lifetime wins for most people at craps are so easy because they get a lifetime of less than 20,000 throws of the dice. Put in max odds, and you have a two-digit percentage chance of coming out ahead for your life without anything.

What percentage of THOSE players will fancy throwing the dice a certain way and convincing themselves that they are REALLY GOOD? I don't know. But probably a few of them.

Selling the prop bets is the best way to insure that the table will make money, and that's why the stick sells those bets!

Ahigh




hat does that have to do with the question....... what would a person have to do exactly before some one on
here would consider that person to have some influance over the dice.,..... and then further would that person
have to do that on every session everyday???????


dicesetter

I believe an expert DI is good enough to lose his money in any casino in the world !

Quote: dicesitter

Ahigh




hat does that have to do with the question....... what would a person have to do exactly before some one on
here would consider that person to have some influance over the dice.,..... and then further would that person
have to do that on every session everyday???????


dicesetter

That depends on the person. If the person already believes that it's possible, for some people on here, all you have to do is say "I did it."

I know there are at least 40 people who would believe that I was doing it if I made that claim, and at least 3 of them are on this forum.

Ahigh



I see, so if "you" say you did it, then all those people would beleive you, but if some one else
says that. well no that has to be proven.

Two things, first.... that does not answer the question of what one has to do .... to be accepted as some one that
has done the work to influence the dice.

Second........ remember i have also seen you throw, and there are many people much better than you and me.

I dont really care if a person beleives you can influence the dice or not, the only thing i wander about is
we go through all this nonsense without actually setting some standard by which we judge.


Dicesetter

Dicesetter, I'm confused. You claim to be a dice influencer yourself. Yet, you seem to be taking both sides of the argument about dice influencing. Please clarify YOUR position. What is it that YOU actually believe or consider to be true or possible about dice influencing. I would like to read YOUR personal thoughts and beliefs. Thanks.

Alan


Thanks for the question.

Here is what i have seen from myself and others.

I dont think there is any question one can learn to influence the dice.. I sure have done it
and most others have. but it is a here today and gone tomorrow thing. thats why many people call it
pure luck. Also dice infleunce can be good or bad, you can throw more 7's just as well as more 4's.

If i stay on my home table i can do some things, that i cant do was i move around Vegas or other
areas.. If you play on a table that is higher, or longer or bouncier etc every thing changes. Now i have heard
this crap about well just change your toss a tad sounds wonderful.. but not that easy.

When you take a set for instance, lets say a 53 53 set and your dice provide more combinations of 8 than they
should that is influence... not control but influence. Many people can do that at home.

Now i understand when i say dice setting is just like anything else such as golf or bowling , i hear the comments,
that is not true, you cant talk about Tiger Woods etc..... well you can and it is the same.

You take a guy like Woods, as good as he is and you give him an old dirty 9 iron , he will not hit the same shots,
he will be better than you and I but not the same, you give him an old wood driver.... not the same.

You take a professional bowler that carries 6 balls around , one for each type of oil arrangement.. you give him mine
and say go to it, he wont be the same,,,, not even close.

Now you take a dice setter, one that has worked on a dice toss at home, and you place him on a 16 table instead of
10 or a bouncy table, or one where everyone is drunk and placing their hands all over the tables etc.... he wont be the
same either.

In addition were are not the same from one day to another, even on my table some times i am spot on, other times
i think what in the hell happened.

So my feeling is a well trained dice thrower can do better than average when the conditions are right and he has this
throw working. Period

I dont think he can do it everyday or at every table or under all conditions.

thats why the casino should welcome dice setters, because we are off more than we are on, and when we are off
we may lose more than when we are on.

alan thats about the best i can do, i played many sports, some at a pretty high level, and some days when things were
right it was great fun, others days not so much, but at the end of the year your stats showed what ever you did was
not luck, because it was at a good level year after year.

Last, i dont know about claiming anything exactly, i have put in hundreds of hours on dice throwing, i dont claim to be good
or surely not better than others. But no one willl convince me that you cant have an affect on the dice, and also learned
the effect may not be the one you wanted.

dicesetter

If you are off more than you are on, why try to influence the dice if a negative result is what happens ?

Quote: dicesitter

I see, so if "you" say you did it, then all those people would beleive you, but if some one else
says that. well no that has to be proven.

It's much easier to pull the wool over someone's eyes and get them to believe. You didn't ask about a proof. The Wizard and others have already outlined what it would take to make a proof. And a proof would cost me five figures of my time.

And even after that, I'm sure some people wouldn't care nor would it affect them in any significant way.

I can already tell you it's harder than most people who believe themselves to be practicing DI's believe than it is to do.

Quote: dicesitter

I dont think there is any question one can learn to influence the dice.. I sure have done it
and most others have.

"Most others" have learned to "influence the dice," have they?

Really?

Maybe you should clarify the point you are attempting to make here.

Does the term "most others" encompass, as I assume based on your failure to qualify the term, the class composed of ALL people who roll dem bones?

Are we then, ala Scoblete, "unconscious" dice influencers?

But keep dem bones out of my paws: I'm a BAD influence.

I agree with these comments:

Quote: dicesitter

So my feeling is a well trained dice thrower can do better than average when the conditions are right and he has this
throw working. Period

I dont think he can do it everyday or at every table or under all conditions.

Quote: dicesitter

But no one willl convince me that you cant have an affect on the dice,

Quote: ds

So my feeling is a well trained dice thrower can do better than average when the conditions are right and he has this
throw working. Period

I dont think he can do it everyday or at every table or under all conditions.

MY feeling is that a random roller can do better than average when the conditions are right and he has favorable results.

But in both cases, there aren't a sufficient number of samples to demonstrate anything more than falling victim to a mental trap into the class of folks who fall victim to gambler's fallacy.

And of course you can't win every single time you go to the table. If you think you can, you haven't played long enough yet.

I would sum up my feelings on DI this way: would you rather throw the dice trying to hit the numbers you are betting on or not?