"Golden Touch".....downloaded video....

Quote: MrV

The Deluded Dice Divas seem to want to do more than simply avoid the seven.

I don't "endorse" any of those guys, and I've never seen anyone -- even when I hung out with the original DI crowd years ago -- hit particular numbers on demand.

However, theoretically certain "sets" are supposed to hit certain groups of numbers.

For example, I learned the cross sixes set from Heavy and he says that set is likely to hit outside numbers. I tend to hit outside numbers. But I can't tell you if my next throw is going to be a 12 or a 4, or an 11 or a 2, or a 10 or a 3. And I don't know anyone who can.

Even the three DIs I witnessed or played with can't claim any ability to hit any particular number. The surgeon used the 3V and hit inside numbers. The guy I played with recently used the hardways set and was hitting various numbers -- nothing in particular but avoided 7s. The mystery guy used a 3V also and he was pounding away at 6s and 8s but also had his share of 4, 5, 9, 10.

Quote: Ahigh

By having a skill-based competition where the EASIEST GAME TO BEAT IS PASS LINE PLUS MAX ODDS and no other bets, you will find out if the same guy takes home the bacon every time (or more often than anyone else to be notable) or not.

Why is this a true test? Suppose a shooter throws a point of 4 using a 3V set. (Not supposed to hit a 4 with that 3V set.) And then goes on to pound away 6s and 8s and never makes the 4. Does that mean he's not a good DI ??

If you are saying he should then use a set to hit the 4 perhaps he's not comfortable with it? The set to hit a 4 is either cross-sixes or the 2V.

If a DI only intends to avoid the 7 or to maximize the 7 why can't you come up with a test to see if the DI can in fact minimize or maximize the 7 ??

Quote: Ahigh

My view on the subject of dice control is that there is very sound theory behind it,

And that is the most important point. There is very sound theory behind it.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Why is this a true test? Suppose a shooter throws a point of 4 using a 3V set. (Not supposed to hit a 4 with that 3V set.) And then goes on to pound away 6s and 8s and never makes the 4. Does that mean he's not a good DI ??

DING. Further, it doesn't mean ANYTHING. There's just too few samples for it to mean anything about the shooter at all.

In order for this whole thing to work, you have got to get through tens of thousands of shots per shooter and compare those. This means you're talking about an event where guy who think they are good enough come in and shoot a couple hundred rolls a day each.

Your question effectively amounts to "does it matter what happens in a couple of shots?"

Answer: of course it doesn't.

But if these guys come in and do 500 shots each per day, five days a week, trying to hit numbers that the casino challenges them to hit, after six months or so you get shooters that have 100,000 logged throws, you will start to see from the statistics if any of these shooters are any "good" or if they just have some isolated luck that some people who don't understand statistics and math misinterpret to be skill.

The first big problem is just that each craps table in Vegas gets about 100 shots per hour or 2,400 shots per day max. There's about 300 craps tables here in Vegas, and maybe 150 that are operated with about a 2/3 duty cycle. But let's just say that Vegas sees 720,000 rolls max per day between every shooter in town.

If you took all those rolls (let's say 100,000 to 720,000) each day and packed them together for the entire day for all the tables, and you found out there was a rolls-to-seven ratio of 5.89 instead of 6.00 for that day, even THAT doesn't mean anything except the players had a lucky day.

But if one shooter on one occasion doesn't make his point or does, it means absolutely nothing at all.

If you can wrap your head around that, you might have a start on why the surgeon is nothing more than just some random dude that fits a profile you have in your mind of what this guy you think is a professional shooter would look like looks like after observing him for a few hundred rolls at most.

Quote: AlanMendelson

... the mystery shooter at Caesars and I told this story before. He was alone at the table on a Sunday morning. When I arrived he had the dice and was pressing bets. he continued to shoot for what amounted to about (I am guessing since I wasnt there from the start) 45 minutes. he colored up and left with a bundle and never saw him again. He had the crew mesmerized with his soft rolls that hit the back wall and stopped -- number after number.

I played with the surgeon twice including once when we were "stuck" at a $100 table at Caesars (every other table was jammed) and we had a magnificent time.

The third DI I only met once and he had two very strong hands, making three passes and rolling lots of numbers.

Other than having good rolls, what common quality did each of these guys display that you've never seen before at a craps table?

Alan, you've annointed them as DI's: why?

What specific criteria did they meet that convinced you that it was more than luck?

Surely it was more that "soft rolls that hit the back wall and stopped," although that would certainly be a piece of the puzzle.

Could you tell whether the dice stayed on axis, for example, on all or nearly all rolls?

Quote: MrV

Could you tell whether the dice stayed on axis, for example, on all or nearly all rolls?

No one could see that with the naked eye. It would take an expensive camera etc..

We've all been at a table where one guy/gal seems to have long rolls more than once. It's not a big deal, just luck. Nothing wrong with luck but to then call it influencing is sort of childlike as we say. If you want to act like and be childlike at a craps table no harm done unless of course you start playing with other peoples money on the table or in their chip rack.

Patricia Demauro

of Denville, New Jersey
May 23th 2009
at The Borgata Hotel Casino and Spa
Atlantic City, New Jersey
4 Hours and 18 Minutes

154 Rolls

25 Pass Line Wins

Estimated Table Win - $180,000


ENOUGH SAID

I lied. If enough guys attempt DI some of them will get lucky and win at the beginning. They will then think there is something to it. They will practice more and play more. Some of them guys will also get lucky and win. eventually a few of thees guys MIGHT be up over a long period of time, there shots will LOOK better compared to others because they practice more. I'ts all probably just an illusion. I would also guess that all the DI's that seem successful and good at it will also be successful in life. I think this is correlated with the fact that they already have money to ride out the bad runs and losses. They probably have determination to stick with things and not give up.

I want to see one successful DI who built up from a small bankroll by playing craps without selling or teaching classes.

Axelwolf




Why in "the" hell would any one have to prove anything to you or anyone else....Do you really think if some one
proved they could influence the dice to you or Ahigh or anyone else would then have the right to do what...exactly???

Could they then play craps, could they then win, could they then come on this site . or other sites.

I get a kick out this ... do any one of you that question this really think a good craps cares what you
think....do they care you dont think they or others could possibly be an advantage player, or have an advantage
at the table...

No one, and i mean NO one that is good at anything cares what others think, the only person they have to prove
anything to is themselves. They are the ones that put in the work, the money ,the practice. If what ever results or
enjoyment they have had is worth the time, money and effort they exchanged for it, that is all that counts.

I have come to the conclusion that the only people that demand others to prove things to them are the ones that cant
prove anything to themselves.

Dicesetter

And the ones who NEVER put their money where there mouth is, should be quiet.

Quote: dicesitter

AxelwolfWhy in "the" hell would any one have to prove anything to you or anyone else...

My vote: "To enhance human knowledge."

From the time we came down from the trees, our brain has developed and enabled us to rule the earth.

It is through the power of reasoning that we escape the chains of superstition and ignorance.

Without science we'd be worshiping idols, sacrificing children, and using leeches and bleeding to try to cure what ails us.

If that's your world, you're welcome to it.

All the people putting the most amount of effort into shooting are shooting at the lowest limit tables, from what I see.

I've noticed less and less folks putting effort into shooting around town the last couple of years.

The number of folks even trying is pretty miniscule.

But if you're doing it, you are going to have a ton of play time and go all over town to keep from getting on anyone's radar.

And I know from experience that once you are beating a place for 6 months or more coming in frequently, you get a run-around.

Ellis Island did this to me, Silverton did this to me, and while Jerry's Nugget isn't currently doing this to me, I'm surprised.

There are multiple casinos where I've been up multiple thousands for more than a year. It's interesting when you find out how things change when you're winning.

They really do pay attention when you're beating them.

When I got banned at Fiesta, I didn't have a winning session, but I was betting big and I had been beating them for months and months at that point.

Here on the street in Vegas, you are going to be talked about when you shoot like that and you beat a casino every time you come in for months on end.

At Jerry's Nugget, the last time I was there, I think I lost $200. That was the first time Gabe, a dealer there, has seen me lose. He began to point it out that I never lose and I had been going in there several times a week for several months without losing.

Jiun (pronounced "gin") refers to me as "the professional" at Jerry's Nugget. I get plenty of attention from my luck in shooting the dice. But I have losing sessions at other places, I am just lucky to be beating them, and it's fun, but even still, it's just luck.

Lots of people who watch me shoot talk as if I am the real deal, and I just tell them all that it's just luck.

It's not just a few people who are convinced this stuff is real. But I keep track of my wins and losses and I know that just beating one casino means nothing, even if you do it for 100 trips in a row over the course of several months, it can just be luck and it does happen.

I also got comments at Jerry's Nugget recently, "that's the first time I have seen a max bet."

I had $300 don't pass with $450 lay odds on another shooter on an eight point. I got lucky and I got paid. They are only double odds, but Sam and Juin informed me afterwards that I could have laid $1200 to win $1000 because they allow laying to win 10 for every 3 there. I still found that to be surprising, and wasn't sure. In any case, dealers saying they don't see this action is another clue!

If these controlled shooters existed, I wouldn't be getting these comments as places where DI's are known to go. They would be max betting every roll!

They're not. They're maybe max betting the all-tall-small and getting paid infrequently enough to have a big win every now and then and forgetting when they lose conveniently.

Just a couple of comments about dice influencing for MrV and anyone else who is interested:

1. No one with any credibility (in my book) can tell me that they can hop specific numbers using DI or DC. I don't believe it. It's happened, but it was lucky.

2. DI has two basic strategies: (1) to increase the appearance of the 7 and (2) to decrease the appearance of the 7.

3. Dice Influencing has various levels of skill, for example:

A. the level of skill to keep both dice on the table.
B. the level of skill to softly bounce the dice off the back wall.
C. the level of skill to minimize the rotation of the dice as they fly in the air and softly hit the back wall
D. the level of sill to minimize the rotation of the dice as they fly in the air, and softly hit the back wall, and as they gently bounce off the back wall.

Now, I'm pretty darn good at A -- keeping both dice on the table.
I am also pretty darn good at B -- softly bouncing the dice off the back wall.

I try to do my best at C and at D.

Now, MrV asks:

Quote: MrV

Other than having good rolls, what common quality did each of these guys display that you've never seen before at a craps table?

Alan, you've annointed them as DI's: why?

What specific criteria did they meet that convinced you that it was more than luck?

It was that they demonstrated the skill level D. Did luck participate? I'm sure it did. But the closer you can get to Skill Level "D" the less "luck" you need.

Quote: AlanMendelson

D. the level of sill to minimize the rotation of the dice as they fly in the air, and softly hit the back wall, and as they gently bounce off the back wall.




It was that they demonstrated the skill level D. Did luck participate? I'm sure it did. But the closer you can get to Skill Level "D" the less "luck" you need.

That is the problem. There is no such thing as a lack of or "minimize"ing of the rotation and "gently" bouncing of the back wall, also worth mentioning, the landing of said dice occurring without a bounce..... However, some casino staff do seem to speak to shooters who toss "gently" and don't hit the back wall at all. I don't think I've ever witnessed an actual throw of the dice being called a "no roll".

Quote: NokTang

That is the problem. There is no such thing as a lack of or "minimize"ing of the rotation and "gently" bouncing of the back wall,

Don't be ridiculous.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Don't be ridiculous.

Just read your story about the kidney transplant. A great read, thanks. So with that said I'll let you continue to believe casino's haven't thought of such a concept and people actually believe there is some sort of skill involved in a completely random events outcome.

It's the haves vs the have nots.

Quote: NokTang

Just read your story about the kidney transplant. A great read, thanks. So with that said I'll let you continue to believe casino's haven't thought of such a concept and people actually believe there is some sort of skill involved in a completely random events outcome.

Of course the casinos recognize the threat. It's the appearance that I could do it which is why I was tossed out of NYNY, MGM and Bellagio.

Alan



Most decent dice setters can do all of what you indicated.

Controlling the spin is not hard, hitting your spot is not hard, controlling
the elevation is not hard, making your dice travel close together is not that
hard, indeed most of the elements of dice control are not hard. few hundred
hours of practice and you got it made.

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUt

All that does not mean much, now for the hard stuff, how do you consistently
get a good shot and avoid the 7.

A ramdom guy just chucks them, no chance what so ever to be almost good, but a dice
setter, no such luck if you are a hard way setter. good luck on that. you throw the dice 8-9 feet\they hit
and bounce and if each die is only 1/4 turn off perfect you have a 3/4 --4/3 , you can do everything almost
perfect and your still done.

Many goof balls that watch DI throw and see the 7, hell that guy is terrible, no he was almost perfect
and still had a 7.

That is what makes dice control hard, the better you get, the closer you are to a 7 on every roll, much closer
than a random guy, so you need to be even better, you need to know how to make adjustments so your
repeatable toss gets you a paying number not a 7.

Thats why i laugh when guys demand some one prove some thing to them, they have no idea what in the world
they are looking for.

Dicesetter

Quote: Buzzard

I will now expect any response from those who believe to change th e subjects, as usual.
MONEY TALKS AND BULLSHIT WALKS

Hmmmmm

Quote: AlanMendelson

Of course the casinos recognize the threat. It's the appearance that I could do it which is why I was tossed out of NYNY, MGM and Bellagio.

So, in addition to you wonderful stories, and the fiction such as witnessing 18(or was it 21?) yo's in a row at Caesars, you are telling us you were backroomed at the MGM and Bellagio, two of the largest operations in Las Vegas, based on the appearance of being a dice influence player.... a remarkable life you live and dream of being in. In many ways, we envy such imaginations since we can relate to events at the casino and of course, needing an organ transplant.

All that said, this is no "game" my friend. Life and death, players and casino's. Don't let either creep up on you as you may regret it.

Quote: dicesitter

That is what makes dice control hard, the better you get, the closer you are to a 7 on every roll, much closer
than a random guy, so you need to be even better, you need to know how to make adjustments so your
repeatable toss gets you a paying number not a 7.

What a load of hogwash. One thinks you might be making excuses for just making random throws and having random results like the rest of us out here.

http://phys.org/news114793259.html

dicesitter: "Most decent dice setters..."
ahigh: "everybody generalizes."

Quote: NokTang

So, in addition to you wonderful stories, and the fiction such as witnessing 18(or was it 21?) yo's in a row at Caesars, you are telling us you were backroomed at the MGM and Bellagio, two of the largest operations in Las Vegas, based on the appearance of being a dice influence player.... a remarkable life you live and dream of being in. In many ways, we envy such imaginations since we can relate to events at the casino and of course, needing an organ transplant.

All that said, this is no "game" my friend. Life and death, players and casino's. Don't let either creep up on you as you may regret it.

I was not backroomed.

At NYNY they took the dice away from me because I was having a lucky hand and I was hitting numbers after setting the dice. My dice were bouncing all over the table, but they didn't like that I set and won. After making a point the boxman said "you're through" and he ordered the stick man to pass the dice.

After a big win at MGM which admittedly included some rolls where both dice did not hit the back wall, the pit boss went around to the various tables and said "If Mr M misses the back wall even once take the dice away from him" while at the same time whenever I went to the pit they had suits and security there giving me the evil eye making it so uncomfortable I never went back.

What happened at Bellagio has been all over the Internet for years -- I got lucky and they thought I was a dice mechanic -- and the dealers got rude towards me and refused to pay winning bets after my rolls. Then, a yelling match erupted between the table crew and a pit boss about me (I did nothing wrong and the pit boss said my bets should be paid). But when I returned to the casino months later, I was rudely treated and when I said to my wife "I think they want me to leave" the floorman said "that would be a good idea."

Remember this Noktang: I never claimed to be a dice controller or successful influencer. At all three casinos I got into trouble because to them it looked like I could influence or control dice. In reality, in each and every case I just got lucky. The bottom line: I looked like I could do it, I got lucky, and they gave me grief.

Quote: AlanMendelson

What happened at Bellagio has been all over the Internet for years -- I got lucky and they thought I was a dice mechanic -- and the dealers got rude towards me and refused to pay winning bets after my rolls.

Please do tell us more about this incident. Not paying winners is a very dangerous thing for a casino to do, and earn a reputation of doing. Yet here you are indicating one of the five star casino's in Las Vegas did this to you and I assume the other players betting the same as you. Did they take the losing bets(if you recall)?

Your other indication you knew what they were thinking i.e. "looked like I could influence or control dice" is as you recently said "ridiculous". You would have in fact been "back roomed" for cheating had they thought that. We think you just refused to do what you were told, hit the back wall, and were as I have in fact seen, told to pass the dice.

Alan




Maybe you were lucky maybe not,no one will ever know.

The point is the casino gives you heat because they are dumb enough
to think it will hurt them. Thats the problem with the guys that write the books
and tell the stories. They lead others to think its 100% foolproof.


Having a long roll or couple of them in a night is luck...period,,however
having a decent shot and playing the game right makes you luckier more
often..

That is the aspect of craps play some casino's dont understand. Ever see a casino host sit
at the front door and say folks, we have set the slots so tight tonight you have no chance to
win but your welcome to play.

It is the idea you can win, or in craps the idea that you can infleunce the dice, or in poker
'that you can read the other plays. we all want to feel something we do can make a difference.

A casino wins at craps even if you hit your number, they should root for you.


dicesetter

Russia basically said, we can hit any target, anywhere and more sunctions only bring nuclear attack closer. Dice control is on my mind.

Quote: NokTang

Please do tell us more about this incident. Not paying winners is a very dangerous thing for a casino to do, and earn a reputation of doing. Yet here you are indicating one of the five star casino's in Las Vegas did this to you and I assume the other players betting the same as you. Did they take the losing bets(if you recall)?

You could have looked it up on the web, but here is the original post from the old rec gambling craps from more than 10 years ago. MrV might remember it:

http://rec.gambling.craps.narkive.com/Mi3ZHTJY/bellagio-early-saturday-morning

And here's what I wrote on the Las Vegas Advisor website about the other incidents:

a couple of weeks later, my wife and I were at the B to meet her sister for brunch. after brunch we were walking through the casino and we passed a $10 craps table that was wide open. So I said, let me try a hundred. And my wife said OK.

So I bought in for a hundred, and kept rolling for about 6-7 minutes. After 6-7 minutes I had a couple hundred in my rail and everything was pressed up to $130 across. Thats when the floorman said to me "got a player's card?" "No," I said. He said, "give me your license, youre having a great roll, let's get you rated."
"No thanks," I said.
Well, he insisted. So I took my MGM players card out of my wallet and handed it to him. He scanned it into the computer.
Then as I am picking up the dice, the card comes back to me. Read this carefully: he didn't hand the card to me, he didn't place it on the rail next to me. HE TOOK THE CARD AND THREW IT WITH FULL FORCE AT MY HAND AND IT HIT MY HAND.
I was shocked. I looked at my wife and said "I think they want me to leave."
And the floorman said, quote: "THAT WOULD BE A GOOD IDEA."

A couple of weeks later we were at the MGM and when I walked up to a table, a supervisor (suit) came over to the boxman and said "Mr X is welcome to place bets, but he's not to throw the dice."

then at NYNY Im having a great roll, and the boxman and floorman are watching me, and make comments about me setting dice. And I say "you don't believe it works, do you?" And they say "yes, we know it works."
On my next throw I make another pass.
Then I set up the passline this way: bet for me, bet for the dealers, bet for the cleaner who was at the table cleaning the shelf under the rail, and a bet for the cocktail waitress.
I set the dice throw a 7 and everyone wins.
then the supervisor looks at me and says, "you're through." And I took that to mean leave, and I did, taking my bets and going.

then about a year later, I meet my sister and brother in law at MGM. I did not throw the dice, but as soon as I walked up to the table THREE SUITS came to stand across the table and watch me. But the funniest thing is that my sister (a complete random roller who just hurls the dice) had a 40 minute hand and my original $100 buy in turned into $3-thousand. After she threw, we left.

if DI's really existed, my guess would be that they wouldnt be teaching classes, writing books, or going on websites crowing about their talent,
They would be quietly making their money at their "craft".

I dont have a problem with DI's. I have a problem with people who claim they are DI's that sell their methods for hundreds of dollars without full disclosure upfront that it will involve hundreds of hours of practice first before you even have a chance.

but when you think about it. The more poorly prepared new students of DI that flood into the market and fail...the beter for the handful of real DI. Those poorly trained people fill up the tables and let the floorman see that setting doesnt work...thereby letting the real DI's to blend in with the inexperienced newbies...shielding them from immediate heat. These newbies are just cannon fodder. They are running interference without knowing it.

Just like at carnival games....there may be one dude that spends hundreds of dollars perfecting the way to make the 3 baskets, or knocking the pins over with a ball so that he can consistantly win the big stuffed animal......but the vast majority doesnt have the money, time and effort to spend on that.....they can try to mimic his methods...but they dont attain his level of success.

I will concede there may be one out of 10 thousand students of DI that will devote the time and effort needed to be successful at DI....maybe. But the averge joe buying the books and seminars doesnt have a chance.....and of course they are not told this ahead of time. In the end..Buyer beware.

the the supposed precision needed in throwing the dice....do you think a student with parkinsons disease(hand tremors) would be turned away from a DI class. Do you think that question is even asked upon enrollment? There are meds that cause hand tremors...are DI classes helpfuil for these people?
Or is it just take the money if they have a pulse....and let them all figure out the reality later.

Just a quick question, tangentially related to the matter at hand.

Do the current generation of casino surveillance cameras have the capability to determine whether the dice remain on axis during a roll?

Casino loss prevention folk are aware of the DI theories and must have concluded DI cannot be a viable threat UNLESS the dice stay on axis; otherwise who cares?

So if a shooter is suspected of truly being able to control dem bones, a box man or pit boss could call the Eye and ask the Eye to really study the next couple rolls; the Eye could, if technology permits, then pan in closely in slo-mo to see if the cubes remain on axis immediately before landing and more importantly after landing, until they come to rest.

If they could do that, and if the suits really understood how this stuff is supposed to work, they'd have pretty sound objective evidence to look at, seems to me.

Otherwise, as always, superstition will reign supreme at the craps table.

Quote: MrV

Just a quick question, tangentially related to the matter at hand.

Do the current generation of casino surveillance cameras have the capability to determine whether the dice remain on axis during a roll?

Part of my research in the gaming world centers around two premises:

1) High framerate
2) Motion portrayal

What I have found is that, in general, the state of the art for surveillance is still pretty crude.

It is true that casinos are known to push harder in the areas of framerate than most, but as a general rule, most closed circuit cameras, even the newer ones with packet-switching digital data, transfer video at 30 frames per second.

For the real-time capture stuff that I developed for my craps table, I bring in 720p60 and capture raw using multiple high-quality cameras that allow me to change the exposure time differently on each camera. This allows me to get the data that I need using multiple cameras and capture hardware that cost a total of about $5,000 instead of a high-speed camera that starts at about $20,000 and goes up and over $100,000 (for example the Phantom).

As a general rule, however, some places don't even have any surveillance capabilities at all on their tables (places with only one craps tables with $300 limits specifically here in Vegas).

But the ones that do, you can often inspect the details of the cameras over the craps tables to know that they are dealing with 30 frame-per-second cameras. Any intelligence about whether your shot is something to worry about is the job of the box man not the eye in the sky.

The eye in the sky is typically more concerned with the details of the chips, not the details of how the dice bounce after they land.

However, I do not work closely with surveillance. So a lot of this is guesswork on just looking closely at the equipment that they use.

Typical conversations on linked-in are usually about upgrading from analog to digital. Analog is generally 640x480 at 30 frame and/or 60 fields per second -- Very low bandwidth. When going to 1080p, they typically are looking at cost problems already with the number of cameras, and there are still casinos that use outdated analog cameras with very limited visibility except when zoomed into a specific area.

The newer HD cameras are cable to capture more details without manual PTZ, but NONE of these cameras can see anything but a BLUR in terms of knowing what a shot is doing after it lands on the felt. They might get a warning flag and send someone to the scene to watch. But determining if someone is using a questionable throwing technique is typically done in close proximity using a real-live person.

If there are any casinos that wanted to have some sort of technology developed to trigger when short rolls or questionable shots happen and automatically sound an alert, it could absolutely be done.

I just don't think it is done at all (just a guess).

Quote: Ahigh

As a general rule, however, some places don't even have any surveillance capabilities at all on their tables (places with only one craps tables with $300 limits specifically here in Vegas).

But the ones that do, you can often inspect the details of the cameras over the craps tables to know that they are dealing with 30 frame-per-second cameras

Are you talking about cameras without a black bubble specifically?

Since casinos don't care if dice remsin on axis or not they wouldn't look for it. If they wanted to see it the technology is quickly and cheaply available. Keeping dice on axis violates no rule however so why would they bother to look? Even random shooters can have on axis throws so would you contest an on axis throw by a random shooter?

If they were worried -- they could easily start installing horizontal cameras inside the dice area where they could analyze the dice in action.

I highly doubt they are worried enough to make that investment.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Read this carefully: he didn't hand the card to me, he didn't place it on the rail next to me. HE TOOK THE CARD AND THREW IT WITH FULL FORCE AT MY HAND AND IT HIT MY HAND..

You could have sued. You should have sued. At the very least, taken a drink and tossed it in his face. We should not allow people to be treated this way in a casino. If shotguns were allowed such incidents would not occur.

How did an MGM card work at the Bellagio anyhow? Is it possible you were listed as a cheater in the MGM data base?

Quote: AlanMendelson

You could have looked it up on the web, but here is the original post from the old rec gambling craps from more than 10 years ago. MrV might remember it:

http://rec.gambling.craps.narkive.com/Mi3ZHTJY/bellagio-early-saturday-morning.

Good morning Alan. I read your old story. Remarkable you could throw the dice three times and each roll have one/both? die leaning on the back wall. The devil is in the detail. How is it possible to in three successive "lobs" get one or both die to lean on said back wall? That is in fact suspicious and would alert anyone watching for a cheater.

"The supervisor, in simple words (a hice looking woman, by the way) told him to
shut up. And she continued, "if they pass the prop box they are valid rolls."

It's also interesting you mention the supervisor was a woman. Today of course, that would be politically incorrect. Ten years ago, may also have been. Our memory fades, but for "her" to chew out all those men, my oh my....what a scene and can you imagine how puckered those arse's were?

Quote: NokTang

How did an MGM card work at the Bellagio anyhow? Is it possible you were listed as a cheater in the MGM data base?

Ummm... Bellagio is part of MGM maybe? And they have the same players club?

Quote: NokTang

Good morning Alan. I read your old story. Remarkable you could throw the dice three times and each roll have one/both? die leaning on the back wall. The devil is in the detail. How is it possible to in three successive "lobs" get one or both die to lean on said back wall? That is in fact suspicious and would alert anyone watching for a cheater.

Except it is not cheating.

Was it remarkable? Of course it was. I never did it before, and I never did it since.

But hitting the back wall was not the issue. The issue was the dealers claimed that there was a rule that the dice must bounce off the wall a certain number of inches when dice are set. That was BS. Management knew it, and they apologized to me.

Quote: NokTang

"The supervisor, in simple words (a hice looking woman, by the way) told him to
shut up. And she continued, "if they pass the prop box they are valid rolls."

."

to be clear, the supervisor said to the stickman to "shut up."

For the record, I said nothing. I didn't have to say anything. She had been watching it all and literally came to my rescue. She knew there was no such rule about dice bouncing off the back wall.

Quote: NokTang

It's also interesting you mention the supervisor was a woman. Today of course, that would be politically incorrect.

I don't think it is politically incorrect to describe the supervisor as a woman or as a nice looking woman.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I don't think it is politically incorrect to describe the supervisor as a woman or as a nice looking woman.

It remains sexist and what they call sexual harassment to refer to her in such a way. Many make the obvious assumption she had sex with someone to get such a great job.

Quote: NokTang

It remains sexist and what they call sexual harassment to refer to her in such a way. Many make the obvious assumption she had sex with someone to get such a great job.

Really? I think that's a stretch.

Is a pit boss who is a good looking man also a sexist description? Did he have sex with someone to get such a great job?

I think your thinking is antiquated, and that today we recognize women can rise to high level jobs on their own skills and talents.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Really? I think that's a stretch.

Is a pit boss who is a good looking man also a sexist description? Did he have sex with someone to get such a great job?

I think your thinking is antiquated, and that today we recognize women can rise to high level jobs on their own skills and talents.

So please tell us why you mentioned she was "nice looking"?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Keeping dice on axis violates no rule however so why would they bother to look?

To determine, objectively, whether in fact the shooter could be a true DI.

I think even you would accept the proposition that no so-called dice influence can occur unless the dice remain on axis; this is required, is it not?

It would better enable an informed decision to be made as whether they are in fact dealing with a true bone arranger (I still question whether any exist) or just another wannabe.

If the technology existed, was in place, and only took a quick phone call to the Eye and a couple minutes of review, why not?

Look what happened to you: they got it wrong and lost a valuable source of income, for life.

Think of all the money you would have given them; they lost it due to a false accusation.

Best to be as certain as possible before barring the sheep from the shearing shed.

That's why, Alan.

Quote: NokTang

So please tell us why you mentioned she was "nice looking"?

Because she was.

MrV I can't understand why a casino would care if anyone is a dice influencer? There is no rule against dice influencing. There is a rule against sliding. There are rules about how high the dice can be thrown. There are rules about hitting the back wall. Can you name ONE casino that has a rule against dice influencing? Heck the casinos give the dice to the players. And wouldn't a player want the dice to favor his bets? Don't the casinos know that when they give the players the dice?

The NGC knows this. Why don't you ask them once and for all?

Quote: AlanMendelson

MrV I can't understand why a casino would care if anyone is a dice influencer?

You posted that the dice were taken from you because the casinos thought were a dice mechanic, you threw three dead cat bounces in a row.

Riddle me this, Batman: why would they give a hoot UNLESS they thought your actions were a bonafide, successful attempt to "influence" the dice?

They read Scoblete, and how all these yahoos are winning millions from the casinos from dice setting.

Like all of us, they await the coming of the Gambling Messiah: those three dead cats in a row, to them, were akin to the star burning bright over the manger in Bethlehem.

<irrelevant post deleted>

I suspect that they were complaining to their "pit boss" that the DI's they were with couldn't keep it on axis, their shots were not controlled, and they spent too much time bone arranging before beginning play.

Quote: MrV

You posted that the dice were taken from you because the casinos thought were a dice mechanic, you threw three dead cat bounces in a row.

Riddle me this, Batman: why would they give a hoot UNLESS they thought your actions were a bonafide, successful attempt to "influence" the dice?

They read Scoblete, and how all these yahoos are winning millions from the casinos from dice setting.

Like all of us, they await the coming of the Gambling Messiah: those three dead cats in a row, to them, were akin to the star burning bright over the manger in Bethlehem.

First of all, they weren't dead cat bounces. My dice gently rolled to the back wall.
Secondly, the problem that the crew had was that the dice were not bouncing back from the wall.

You really should start using proper terminology. "Dice Setting" is what you do when you arrange the dice before you pick them up. I see people all the time setting dice and then picking them up and shaking them in their hand. Do you think that is "dice influencing"?

Let's call a spade a spade... or boxcars boxcars. You, MrV will argue anything to try to discredit the idea that someone somewhere just might be able to do something that you can't do. Well, drop this one, because dice influencing is legal -- and you're allowed to do it -- as long as you do it while following the "rules of the game."

At Bellagio I was free to influence the dice anyway I could... as long as my dice bounced back from the wall. No one said anything when my dice were bouncing back. And then after the table crew pulled their stunt... the pit boss and upper management said I did nothing wrong.