"Golden Touch".....downloaded video....
Quote: dicesitterAlan
What baffles the snarf out of me is all these guys admit they are playing a
game then cant get any good at.
Dicesetter
I'll assume you are pointing that barb at me. There are a bunch of negative expectation games I play that I enjoy playing; occasionally I'll even win, but never expect to. I play golf as often as I can, I always 'lose' money, as no matter how good I play the course never gives me any money back from my greens fees. What baffles the snarf out of me is that seemingly intelligent people believe in bigfoot, unicorns, and dice influencing.....
I surely was not a barb, it was a fact. It still baffles me, when you read these pages
you would assume there is nothing anyone can do to better their results at the craps
table.
Surely you dont beleive that.
dicesitter
Quote: dicesitterAlan
What baffles the snarf out of me is all these guys admit they are playing a
game then cant get any good at.
Dicesetter
If they want to play a game of chance, they should play roulette, or slots.
I consider craps to be a game of skill because the dice are in the shooter's hands. True, nearly all shooters have no skill, but it's the chance of having some skill and some influence that makes the game worthwhile.
If it were only a game of chance, like slots or roulette, I would not play it.
Quote: SOOPOOWhat baffles the snarf out of me is that seemingly intelligent people believe in bigfoot, unicorns, and dice influencing.....
I've never seen bigfoot. I've never seen a unicorn. I have seen dice influencers.
Quote: dicesitterIt still baffles me, when you read these pages
you would assume there is nothing anyone can do to better their results at the craps
table.
Excellent point. Even if craps is only a game of chance, it doesn't hurt to TRY to influence the dice.
It is just not influencing the dice, it is betting, having a decent bank roll, not over
betting the bank roll, not chasing loses, not playing drunk.... all of these and many
more.
Playing the game right is also good for the casino's, because the casino gets paid on
the vig on every bet, the more money that is played the more they make.
We all know or should no that dice setters are good for the game and the casino. How many
times do you see empty tables and a random guy , or new guy wont go to an empty table.
A DI loves an empty table, he plays and soon the table has more players.
The dream of being the next Chris Moneymaker was good for poker and the idea that
one could beat the craps table is great for craps.
Dicesetter
Remember, I used to hang out with the DI crowd long before they were teaching "school" in garages in LV and I played craps with some of the biggest names in DI and to be honest, NOT ONE of them had long enough, consistent rolls to make me believe they really had the skill they claim to have.
It's only because of luck that in the course of playing craps for about 20years did I happen to meet three people who could be true DIs.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI've never seen bigfoot. I've never seen a unicorn. I have seen dice influencers.
I've seen a half bigfoot/ half unicorn dice influencer. It was the most amazing thing I've ever seen in my life.
Quote: AlanMendelsonIt's only because of luck that in the course of playing craps for about 20years did I happen to meet three people who could be true DIs.
The Three DI's.
'Nyuk 'nyuk 'nyuk.
I might have asked this before. They influence the dice but is it enough to beat the game?Quote: AlanMendelsonI've never seen bigfoot. I've never seen a unicorn. I have seen dice influencers.
How many hours did you spend watching the one person (the best)you believe can gain a long term edge on craps though DI? Are they still playing and making money on DI?
I cant believe anyone who is or has sold anything having to do with craps. I would think that they would have to play craps often to ensure their customers(suckers) they are out playing craps and beating the game.
DI is such a great con. When your doing well in front of your students you say its great DI skill(simply variance). when your doing bad you can just say, your off today, they changed the tables(made them bouncy or something), chips got in the way, someone is distracting you etc etc.
I heard of a situation where an individual caught a DI teacher using loaded dice(not in the casinos) demonstrating his skills.
WHERE ARE ALL THE GREAT DI'S NOW? The clever ones are making money SELLING CRAP.
Quote: AxelWolfI might have asked this before. They influence the dice but is it enough to beat the game?
this, of course, is a trick question because the answer lies in the definition.
I think we all know you cannot beat a negative expectation game.
But if you ask the question this way: did you win money betting on how these guys rolled the dice? The answer would be YES with two of them, and NO with one of them.
The "no" was the mystery shooter at Caesars and I told this story before. He was alone at the table on a Sunday morning. When I arrived he had the dice and was pressing bets. he continued to shoot for what amounted to about (I am guessing since I wasnt there from the start) 45 minutes. he colored up and left with a bundle and never saw him again. He had the crew mesmerized with his soft rolls that hit the back wall and stopped -- number after number.
I played with the surgeon twice including once when we were "stuck" at a $100 table at Caesars (every other table was jammed) and we had a magnificent time.
The third DI I only met once and he had two very strong hands, making three passes and rolling lots of numbers.
So yes, I made money on two out of the three -- but never made a bet and only watched the third.
Now, in my book that's what counts -- winning money. Theoretically we will never beat the game.
So then this could have just been LUCK/VARIANCE. I would have to believe you if played with the same people over many hours eventually you would lose. I know guys who played for a long time and won a significant amount, its meaningless.Quote: AlanMendelsonthis, of course, is a trick question because the answer lies in the definition.
I think we all know you cannot beat a negative expectation game.
But if you ask the question this way: did you win money betting on how these guys rolled the dice? The answer would be YES with two of them, and NO with one of them.
The "no" was the mystery shooter at Caesars and I told this story before. He was alone at the table on a Sunday morning. When I arrived he had the dice and was pressing bets. he continued to shoot for what amounted to about (I am guessing since I wasnt there from the start) 45 minutes. he colored up and left with a bundle and never saw him again. He had the crew mesmerized with his soft rolls that hit the back wall and stopped -- number after number.
I played with the surgeon twice including once when we were "stuck" at a $100 table at Caesars (every other table was jammed) and we had a magnificent time.
The third DI I only met once and he had two very strong hands, making three passes and rolling lots of numbers.
So yes, I made money on two out of the three -- but never made a bet and only watched the third.
Now, in my book that's what counts -- winning money. Theoretically we will never beat the game.
Quote: AxelWolfSo then this could have just been LUCK/VARIANCE. I would have to believe you if played with the same people over many hours eventually you would lose. I know guys who played for a long time and won a significant amount, its meaningless.
Look, if you don't want to believe that there are people with the skill, nothing I will say will ever make you believe. Don't believe. It's okay.
To be honest, we don't need precision dice shooters. We need great surgeons who perform life saving operations. (Oops... that's what one of those DIs does, by the way.)
Quote: AlanMendelsonLook, if you don't want to believe that there are people with the skill, nothing I will say will ever make you believe. Don't believe. It's okay.
To be honest, we don't need precision dice shooters. We need great surgeons who perform life saving operations. (Oops... that's what one of those DIs does, by the way.)
I would need a bit more proof then a few winning sessions.
I'm sure before you would call someone a great surgeon you might want to know they had more then 1 or 2 successful Vasectomy's.
Would you rather bet on a shooter who simply chugs the dice down the table, or would you prefer to bet on a shooter who at least tries to roll winning numbers for you (whether pass or DP)?
Please explain your answer.
And anyone else who is a critic or non-believer of DI please add your response.
Quote: AlanMendelsonWould you rather bet on a shooter who simply chugs the dice down the table, or would you prefer to bet on a shooter who at least tries to roll winning numbers for you (whether pass or DP)?
Like you, I do so WANT to believe in DIs, just as I would like to believe I'll never get old and die.
You tell a good story about the surgeon, and I believe you are trying to describe what you saw occur at that table.
But focus on his throws: you say they were soft and gentle: fine, that isn't impossible to do, I suppose, given a bit of practice.
The question is: how did the dice behave while in motion?
Mirror images of another?
Could you tell whether, from beginning to end, they went off axis?
I agree that someone can probably pull off a Dead Cat Bounce on occasion, but to do it over and over again: no way, too difficult, impossible.
I think you saw a guy with a soft throw who got lucky.
Your hunger for a miracle led you to believe you actually saw one, i.e. confirmation bias.
Quote: AlanMendelsonIf they want to play a game of chance, they should play roulette, or slots.
I consider craps to be a game of skill because the dice are in the shooter's hands. True, nearly all shooters have no skill, but it's the chance of having some skill and some influence that makes the game worthwhile.
If it were only a game of chance, like slots or roulette, I would not play it.
Casinos fight for every dollar they have coming to them. And in their mind....your stack is coming to them. If something comes between them getting your stack...they make rules. They even have hard to deteect rules against card counting.
However setting the dice are pretty obvious. Even if its quick and doesnt hold up the game. They can easily outlaw that if theyfelt people could gain advantage, just as they outlaw card counting.
I am guessing that casino suits think that the number of inprecise throws greatly outnumber the precise throws....so knock yourself out.
The variation of conditions at tables is huge when dealing with precision throwing . Tables with different sprig in the felt, different backwalls, different weight of dice, different height of table, different length of table. Different standing conditions(different pile of carpet). In a precision throw that does not forgive even a fraction of a millimeter varience......given all the variables...the casinos are confident DI is ineffective over time.
if they felt otherwise there would be signs at the table prohibiting setting
Casino's vary, some will not allow dice setting period, some will, some allow it until you hit a couple of numbers
then they dont.
What all boils down to is a misconception by casino's that dice setting will hurt them, it wont...period
It is also a waste of time to talk about whether one person is a DI or not or one person is better than
another, or not or one person is a life time winner or not.
Craps is a negative expectation game, there is no bet on the table that the casino does not win from, and
that includes every bet you make and win, they still get their cut. so what then does winning mean
for a Di.....you cant beleive the fiction writers as Supperrick calls them, you dont go winning thousands everytimg
you get to a table. But if you get good enough at rolling the dice or betting or mental preparation and knowledge
of the game to play 2-3 times a week and just break even your doing wonderful.
Now i understand the history channel will not have a show on breaking vegas for the guy guy that would be glad
to make a couple of hundred dollars. Your not going to write any books about it, or have your own show because
of it, but in my mind that is the real craps players, those that understand that winning a little consistantly, is much
better than going for the big and all the head lines.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterLarryS
Casino's vary, some will not allow dice setting period, some will, some allow it until you hit a couple of numbers
then they dont.
What all boils down to is a misconception by casino's that dice setting will hurt them, it wont...period
It is also a waste of time to talk about whether one person is a DI or not or one person is better than
another, or not or one person is a life time winner or not.
Craps is a negative expectation game, there is no bet on the table that the casino does not win from, and
that includes every bet you make and win, they still get their cut. so what then does winning mean
for a Di.....you cant beleive the fiction writers as Supperrick calls them, you dont go winning thousands everytimg
you get to a table. But if you get good enough at rolling the dice or betting or mental preparation and knowledge
of the game to play 2-3 times a week and just break even your doing wonderful.
Now i understand the history channel will not have a show on breaking vegas for the guy guy that would be glad
to make a couple of hundred dollars. Your not going to write any books about it, or have your own show because
of it, but in my mind that is the real craps players, those that understand that winning a little consistantly, is much
better than going for the big and all the head lines.
dicesetter
the way you describe it DI players can break even a bunch of times, and win a small amount other times. I didnt hear about losing days, but I have to believe they exist where small amounts will be lost
this sounds alot like conservative craps players who know the game inside out, and just throw the dice or pass the dice.
The casinos arent worried because they know they can change the conditions of the tables overnight.. They can change the weight of the dice as well.
On top if that I have read by DI's that they spend hundreds of hours practicing. They have their own tables at home and have hundreds if not thousands of hours under their belts in practice and real play.
Meanwhile Jo blow who takes a DI course or reads half of a book, or sees an article on the internet is the vast majority of the DI's that casinos see. No practice, no clue.
Why would they outlaw those folks. The welcome them with open arms.
thats why I am skeptical of perople selling these classes or books. There is not a warning at the beginning(before payment).,....that the live or written course must be followed by hundreds of hours of practice before any success can be seen. Its not a turnkey operation. It requires hundreds of hours of tedious practice...and owning a standard craps table athome is reccommended.
What race is he? Okay, okay that's a JOKE.Quote: AlanMendelsonAxelWolf let me ask you a practical question:
Would you rather bet on a shooter who simply chugs the dice down the table, or would you prefer to bet on a shooter who at least tries to roll winning numbers for you (whether pass or DP)?
Please explain your answer.
And anyone else who is a critic or non-believer of DI please add your response.
That's a no brainier for me. I would rather shoot with a guy like the surgeon that you talk about. Only because if there is a very, very small chance DI works, then I want to know I have a better chance at winning. But I wouldn't want to go out of my way to play craps with a guy that has a nice looking toss.
My only concern is people who spend money on craps thinking its possible when
Quote: AxelWolfWhat race is he? Okay, okay that's a JOKE.
That's a no brainier for me. I would rather shoot with a guy like the surgeon that you talk about. Only because if there is a very, very small chance DI works, then I want to know I have a better chance at winning. But I wouldn't want to go out of my way to play craps with a guy that has a nice looking toss.
My only concern is people w
ho spend money on craps thinking its possible when
Here I would wanna bet on the guy who was throwing winning numbers. He could shoot the dice out of his as s for all I care.
I am old fashioned I guess. I prefer to win when gambling, if possible.
Quote: dicesitterSoopoo
I surely was not a barb, it was a fact. It still baffles me, when you read these pages
you would assume there is nothing anyone can do to better their results at the craps
table.
Surely you dont beleive that.
dicesitter
Surely I do. Other than cheating, I see no reasonable way to alter the likelihood of one number coming up versus another. As I've stated before, with these parameters---- the dice must be tossed in the air simultaneously from one hand, from one side of the table, hit the table and the opposing wall.... If those parameters are met I believe no human can alter the odds to any degree that will overcome the house edge on any bet in craps. I'm willing to bet on it. You tell me what you think you can do, we can devise a contest. Our friend, Ahigh, has offered up his home on many occasions to host such a challenge.
MONEY TALKS AND BULLSHIT WALKS
Quote: AxelWolf
That's a no brainier for me. I would rather shoot with a guy like the surgeon that you talk about. Only because if there is a very, very small chance DI works, then I want to know I have a better chance at winning.
Thank you.
As i've always said if craps is a random game it doesn't hurt to try.
Quote: AlanMendelsonAs i've always said if craps is a random game it doesn't hurt to try.
Really?
You've always said that?
It makes no sense.
Why "try" (whatever THAT means) if you know / believe the game is random?
What possible benefit would you gain if you were to "try?"
It may not hurt to "try," but does it in fact "help?"
That is the relevant inquiry.
"Trying" and believing you somehow get an edge by doing so at a known random game is a form of superstitious behavior.
Yeah, I see a lot of that superstition nonsense at a craps table.
Axel made what I think is an honest statement just in case someone really can influence dice.
Its like when an agnostic is dying and prays to God just in case.
Quote: AlanMendelsonIts like when an agnostic is dying and prays to God just in case.
The Wiz advises NOT to hedge your bets.
Quote: AlanMendelsonMrV do you wake up in the morning, look in the mirror, and start arguing with yourself? Do you talk to yourself while driving asking yourself if you really need to drive now?
Axel made what I think is an honest statement just in case someone really can influence dice.
Its like when an agnostic is dying and prays to God just in case.
it depends what you mean by "try".
For example when dying an agnostic can pray and it takes an extra 5 seconds .
But if you want to "try" DI.......i have read that it takes hundreds of hours of practice. Its not like walking up to a buffet table and "trying" goose liver pate.
from what I am told, influencing dice requires people to practice practice practice...often with a table in their home.
If dice influencing is even possible....you cant read a booklet and run to a table and "try" it. Just as you cannot read a book on magic and run out and successfully do the tricks. It takes hundreds of hours to get the tricks right.
In fact I look at DI as i do magicians. The magicians that do close up magic..needing incredible hand eye coordination and dexterity. There are thousands of people that each spend thousands of hours trying to perfect their "moves"...and only a very select handful emerge.
The rest end up making 50 dollars a night at a magic club or a birthday party....or going back to their job at fedex.
The same with DI....I feel that ifit is possible there may be only a tiny select few that can make it work at least sporatically.
after hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of hours of practice. Just like "magic".
Quote: MrVThe Wiz advises NOT to hedge your bets.
God help you.
Quote: AlanMendelsonGod help you.
Odds are way against that happening. A warm future is in the forecast!
Quote: LarrySit depends what you mean by "try".
For example when dying an agnostic can pray and it takes an extra 5 seconds .
But if you want to "try" DI.......i have read that it takes hundreds of hours of practice. Its not like walking up to a buffet table and "trying" goose liver pate.
from what I am told, influencing dice requires people to practice practice practice...often with a table in their home.
If dice influencing is even possible....you cant read a booklet and run to a table and "try" it. Just as you cannot read a book on magic and run out and successfully do the tricks. It takes hundreds of hours to get the tricks right.
In fact I look at DI as i do magicians. The magicians that do close up magic..needing incredible hand eye coordination and dexterity. There are thousands of people that each spend thousands of hours trying to perfect their "moves"...and only a very select handful emerge.
The rest end up making 50 dollars a night at a magic club or a birthday party....or going back to their job at fedex.
The same with DI....I feel that ifit is possible there may be only a tiny select few that can make it work at least sporatically.
after hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of hours of practice. Just like "magic".
I look at DI like throwing darts. You have a precision made object (dart, dice) that you must cast in a prescribed manner in an attempt to hit a certain target. There are folks that can throw darts with a very high degree of precision, despite very distracting conditions (t.v. cameras, cheering crowds, air conditioning, hot lights...). I think Alan's three DI candidates could be capable of performing in a similar manner.
It would be a simple process to determine if it were possible to skillfully affect the outcome of the dice.
Quote: AhighIn order to test the efficacy of the notion, craps tournaments with an entry fee could be held where the shooters are given bets by a computer that they have to shoot into. The best shooter wins and no bets are placed. It is entirely a person-against-person shooting competition. If you had these competitions on a daily basis and the house still had a rake to make it profitable, we could see who came out a winner more often.
It would be a simple process to determine if it were possible to skillfully affect the outcome of the dice.
I'm not exactly sure what you are proposing, but I think that the goal of DIs is simply to increase the appearance of the 7 or decrease the appearance of the 7. I don't think anyone claims to be able to hit any particular number on demand.
So in your case, Ahigh, what is the test?
Quote: AyecarumbaI look at DI like throwing darts. You have a precision made object (dart, dice) that you must cast in a prescribed manner in an attempt to hit a certain target. There are folks that can throw darts with a very high degree of precision, despite very distracting conditions (t.v. cameras, cheering crowds, air conditioning, hot lights...). I think Alan's three DI candidates could be capable of performing in a similar manner.
i dont think its a close analogy. You dont hae to throw 2 darts simultaneously from one hand.And you CAN throw darts as softly or as hard as you like and still get the same result. Once the dart hits its destination ...the result is over. Once the die hits the back wall its fate is influenced by the back wall, gravity, and the spring of the landing spot surface. Also I am not sure but can you use your own darts whose weight you are accustomed to. Yet another variable with dice whose weights can vary from casino to casino...or from time of day within a casino.
Quote: AlanMendelsonI'm not exactly sure what you are proposing, but I think that the goal of DIs is simply to increase the appearance of the 7 or decrease the appearance of the 7. I don't think anyone claims to be able to hit any particular number on demand.
So in your case, Ahigh, what is the test?
A computer could, for example, display the bet that the shooter has to roll into. For example, one unit on the pass line with odds after the comeout roll and no other bets would be the most obvious thing the shooter would have to try to defeat that is conceivable to beat.
In this circumstance, each shooter would have only 7 possible sets that would be optimal for each theoretically advantaged throw. The more sets you have memorized for various combinations of bets, the more advanced the shooters' ability to set the dice to get the best result. There are some shooters who don't know how to deal with the comeout roll and just throw the dice randomly on the comeout for example. But there is no limit to how deep this skill can be evolved assuming that a non-random throw can in fact be developed.
If you just wanted to test someone's shot though, forcing them to shoot into bets that they don't get to pick should, at a minimum, include requirements of shooting into a comeout pass line and shooting into an "odds on the 4,5,6,8,9, or 10."
Part of the theoretical skill in shooting the dice in craps is knowing how to optimally set the dice given a complex arrangement of bets with multiple outcomes. I don't know very many people who have gone as deep into this area of skill in craps (knowing how to set the dice for a particular theoretically biased throw). But if you gave me a million rolls from a particular shot on a particular table with a particular biased outcome on the left and right dice, I can come up with how to set the dice for any bet or any arrangement of bets given software that I wrote.
This area of skill in craps in meaningless until you can get past the point of knowing you have an advantaged throw on a given table. Random throws are better than biased throws when you combine a known biased shot with the least optimal set. This gets at your point of "trying doesn't hurt." It can hurt to try if you are getting the results that cause you to lose and press into your losses thinking you just got unlucky and keep shooting the same way.
If you are going to start doing "tests" of hitting particular numbers you are going to have a hard time trying to find people who will take part... because as I said no one who is legitimate is going to claim that ability.
Quote: BuzzardI will now expect any response from those who believe to change th e subjects, as usual.
MONEY TALKS AND BULLSHIT WALKS
Sure enough 13 more posts and no response to putting any money on the line.
Quote: AlanMendelsonYou're asking too much. I don't know of any legitimate DI (or advocate of DI) who will even pretend that he can use specific sets to hit specific numbers. they all use different sets to either increase the chance of a 7 or decrease the chance of a 7.
If you are going to start doing "tests" of hitting particular numbers you are going to have a hard time trying to find people who will take part... because as I said no one who is legitimate is going to claim that ability.
You misunderstand completely.
Here is what I am saying: any legitimate advantage play craps player (for which there may be zero) can win by playing pass line plus max odds at a 20x table.
By having a skill-based competition where the EASIEST GAME TO BEAT IS PASS LINE PLUS MAX ODDS and no other bets, you will find out if the same guy takes home the bacon every time (or more often than anyone else to be notable) or not.
The house will welcome ALL COMPETITORS because they get the rake no matter what. Shoot with as much skill as you want because the competition is the other players.
This is the easiest way to determine if such a thing is possible.
If you are telling me that people won't play because the game is too hard, you might be right.
But I am telling you that if the game includes how to set the dice for a theoretically advantaged throw, I have the software that nobody else has. And I would win that competition (at least until someone else caught up).
You have to understand that you don't get the exact outcome every time, Alan. But a legitimate controlled shot with a million samples of outcomes will have one outcome more likely than the other 35.
I may not be an advocate or a proponent of DI, but I have the tools to tell you how to set the dice for any target or set of targets you can come up with given a history of enough samples from a database of throws for a particular throw, including left versus right die being recorded independently.
The fact that nobody has offered me hundreds of thousands of dollars for these tools is a testament to the fact that nobody can shoot with any reasonable amount of skill to justify the work that I have put into this software.
For any casinos that want to run this competition, you could actually sell the players suggestions for how to set the dice based on their recorded throws. I am more than happy to organize such a competition for a casino. I don't expect any casinos to do this because there would not be enough entrants to justify the event. Those who are just using luck would be afraid to compete without skill, and those who are claiming they use skill would claim to be afraid of being "exposed" for who they were putting in jeopardy their ability to play without being banned.
Maybe there could be some place that doesn't operate a craps table that would be incentivized to run the competition, but I seriously doubt it.
Quote: AlanMendelsonYou're asking too much. I don't know of any legitimate DI (or advocate of DI) who will even pretend that he can use specific sets to hit specific numbers. they all use different sets to either increase the chance of a 7 or decrease the chance of a 7.
"... control the dice when you shoot so that you reduce the appearance of certain numbers and increase the appearance of other numbers - thus offsetting the house edge..."
-- Dominator
*source: http://www.goldentouchcraps.com/midastouch.shtml
and
"The key to any set is to give the shooter a higher percentage at rolling a certain number or numbers."
-- Gary L.
*source: https://www.dicecoach.com/articlearch.asp?ID=74
The Deluded Dice Divas seem to want to do more than simply avoid the seven.
Quote: LarrySi dont think its a close analogy. You dont hae to throw 2 darts simultaneously from one hand.And you CAN throw darts as softly or as hard as you like and still get the same result. Once the dart hits its destination ...the result is over. Once the die hits the back wall its fate is influenced by the back wall, gravity, and the spring of the landing spot surface. Also I am not sure but can you use your own darts whose weight you are accustomed to. Yet another variable with dice whose weights can vary from casino to casino...or from time of day within a casino.
Your raise some good points about the dice and table being variable, however, I think the controlled shooter would be able to compensate. From what I have heard and seen, their goal is to overcome the "randomizers" by casting the dice to a precise area in order to minimize scattering. The analogy of a professional golfer or baseball pitcher has been used, but I think the hand eye coordination required to produce these duplicate throws is very close to darts.
There's no practice that includes rigorous data enough for a proof that it's any more than theory.
Combine that with a particular individuals behind dice-control who are not as smart as the best known AP card counters, video poker players, and professional poker players, and there's a void where there should be some really smart AP craps players (just my opinion) if it were legit.
There are also limits on how much could be made performing AP on the game as the statistics are published by the Nevada Gaming statistics. You can't have someone making ten million a year at craps without developing a reputation for, at least, being really lucky to turn nothing into a multi-million-dollar bankroll.
Where is this guy? Maybe Archie was cheating, even, now that we know he's a cheat. But where's the guy playing by the rules and winning more than ten million from a few bucks?
Quote: AhighWhere is this guy? Maybe Archie was cheating, even, now that we know he's a cheat. But where's the guy playing by the rules and winning more than ten million from a few bucks?
An esteemed forum member claims "millions" have been won from the casinos by dice controllers.
see: Scoblete's tome
I am certain that what I saw would have been proof to many on this forum. The only thing that was wrong with it being proof was it was only about 30 minutes of play.
You really need hundreds of hours of play to mean anything at all.
The corollary: watching the details of a proof first-hand is unrealistic to achieve unless you're doing it yourself (the shooting) and it occurs over a long well-documented span of time.
Just proving that the casino's house edge works by betting $5 on the pass line and no other bets takes about a day. And you might only lose $5 if you're lucky. But you will lose eventually if you play that way long enough with a random throw.
Quote: AhighI saw a guy win $31,000 from a $3,000 buy-in that could have been luck, but to the untrained eye would have appeared to be evidence of dice control working. I am certain that what I saw would have been proof to many on this forum.
Could you actually tell whether the dice stayed on axis the entire time, every throw?
Did they always land softly and then lightly touch the back wall?
How could you tell it wasn't "luck?"
BTW, yours is NOT an "untrained eye;" you know what to look for.
Heck, if there really were such a thing I'd say you were an expert in knowing what to look for in a dice setter.
I doubt there are "many" true believers here. Getting a 10 -1 return in a short time would only convince those that already drank the Koolaid.
In order to prove dice control, you are going to need at LEAST ten thousand samples in order to assert that you're not just looking at a spectacularly lucky streak.
Of course in the case of EXTREME control (like dice sliding) you would not need so many samples.
But if you're talking about an edge per roll of 5% or lower, it's going to take a while to prove it, rather than to just observe what appears to confirm your existing beliefs.
Gee, a very valid point. I am impressed Sir !
