Impossible 843 of 3200 wins

Quote: mightymaron

I had not known about this issue til someone posted on SBR about it. I encountered this back in August and posted about it on SBR.


Under my handle mighty maron I encountered the craps game at the rebate/cash back casino. I got killed fast for at least 100.

To be fair, the bonus casino craps I have made more than I have lost. The rebate casino was instant death for craps for me

TY for finding this out, I emailed about losses

Congrats wizard on getting your losses back. I got a two line email back from 5dimes. "The decision taken by our management is that we are not going to offer the Cashback casino in our website anymore. Regarding your losses, those will not be returned."

I had a documented session in my records where I played the same software on the same site (5dimes) playing craps only betting no pass...I lost every roll. This was the session I brought up to 5dimes and they said no in regards to losses being returned

Quote: mightymaron

Congrats wizard on getting your losses back. I got a two line email back from 5dimes. "The decision taken by our management is that we are not going to offer the Cashback casino in our website anymore. Regarding your losses, those will not be returned."

I had a documented session in my records where I played the same software on the same site (5dimes) playing craps only betting no pass...I lost every roll. This was the session I brought up to 5dimes and they said no in regards to losses being returned

I just read your post over there at sbrforum, too bad, too bad ... that shows how hard it is to get people who can do something about it to notice ... clempops4 shot videos and posted them to YouTube ... a good lesson on outing cheats ...

Do you think 5Dimes knew they were dishing cheating software? they were a bit too quick to back out of the software and disown it, as if they knew they were caught red handed ... kind of like a kid saying "I didn't do it!" meaning he did it ...

--Ms. D.

This brings me to another point. We know that 5Dimes was operating the rogue software. They took it down right away when the Wizard pointed out that they were cheating the player, and refunded his losses.

So, does 5 Dimes not OWE every single craps player who lost at that casino at least a portion of their money back? I mean, the software provider has taken a game that usually has a HA of the order of 1.4% and changed it to a 46% game and adapted the software to clean out players NO matter what they were betting.

Especially when the "Bonus Casino" has testimonials by our esteemed Wizard and TEliot that states that the "bonus casino" is fair? Even though there was no such testimonial on the "Cash Back" casino, the testimonials were on the same WEB PAGE, so why wouldn't people think that the "Cash Back" casino was fair?

So, as far as I am concerned, 5 DIMES should be rogued until they remedy the players that WERE cheated. And I would also not trust ANY of their games. Once a cheat, always a cheat.

Now, that said, I would like to hear from an expert on how a relationship between a business that deals primarily with sportsbooking would operate their casino? Is it possible to simply have a 3rd party arrangement where the 3rd party runs the casino and simply writes the book a check each month for a portion of revenues in order to bring more traffic to the site? Or do you think the sites are more complicit than that and get detailed stats on its wins. And if they do get that report on how it gets those wins, is there someone at 5 Dimes that actually understands craps and that that revenue was too high given the odds?

This is an illustrated example of why I got out of the certification business years ago. Regarding taking any further action, the dynamite in the tunnel has just gone off and I'd like to wait a bit longer for the dust to clear. I would also be interested to know the financial relationship between 5dimes and BLR, to know who profited directly from the action in the casino. It should be noted that 5dimes offered a 25% rebate on losses on a weekly basis, so players should have already received that much back.

This may not be very applicable, but I've played in the live dealer casino at 5dimes a fair bit. Once I complained to 5dimes that although the dealers reside in Costa Rica, and obviously understood Spanish, they would only speak back in English, even if I was the only player at the table. I asked them to speak in Spanish but they just wouldn't do it. Anyway, 5dimes responded by saying that they had no control over the live dealer casino, and acted mainly as a gateway, as I recall.

Exactly. One of my last clients that I worked for was a Professional Employer Organization (PEO). They are basically outsourced Human Resources. They are responsible for payroll, 401K administration, garnishments, onboarding, and termination. There are about 3,000,000 Americans who are paid that way. For mid-sized employers, outsourcing their HR means that they don't have to know the rules and regulations of their business. They pay a premium on payroll in order to outsource their payroll. The advantage is that the small to medium business owner doesn't have to worry about government regulation as the PEO becomes the employer of record.

For many sportsbooks, most of its money is made on the book itself and they are likely in business and have their business model centered on the book. They probably also get a kickback on deposits. They realize that people who bet on books are also likely to gamble, so they have a casino. Now, given the business model, it's quite possible that the casino in question is simply using BLR casino's in a revenue sharing model where they don't have to worry about its administration. They get a cut every month based on a verifiable report, and they're happy.

Hello. My name is Chris Colby. I am the President of Galewind Software Corp.

Galewind Software is the Casino software supplier to Pinnacle Sports, and has been for over 7 years.

(The Wizard has written a Galewind Software Review, for those who are interested.)

It was suggested to me by another member of this forum that I may be able to provide input of some value to the recent questions being raised in this thread.

Prior to doing so, however, I would like to preface any subsequent remarks with the following "out clause": the answers to some questions are really no one else's business.

As those who know me may attest, I'm a pretty open and honest person, and I will do my best to provide what answers I can here. I do not hold myself out as the definitive source for all things "Sportsbook & Casino" related, but I think I can provide some accurate data.

Chris

There are a bunch of questions earlier proposed. Let's start with those regarding an online sportsbook's relationship to its casino. Really, the bottom question is, does the sportsbook owner know that its game is rigged?

Quote: DorothyGale

I just read your post over there at sbrforum, too bad, too bad ... that shows how hard it is to get people who can do something about it to notice ... clempops4 shot videos and posted them to YouTube ... a good lesson on outing cheats ...

Do you think 5Dimes knew they were dishing cheating software? they were a bit too quick to back out of the software and disown it, as if they knew they were caught red handed ... kind of like a kid saying "I didn't do it!" meaning he did it ...

--Ms. D.

The bonus casino I always felt like I have had more than a fair shot at. In the bonus casino I have cashed out more than I have deposited, The craps software I was feasting on. I could go on some big upswings there. Twice I even hit the field bet wagering 600 and paying 2.9x. Even the bonus casino roulette where I once lost 20 color bets in a row, I dont get the feeling of it being off. Now when I played that cashback/rebate casino...wow it was instant death. You did not feel like you had any chance.

The action of pulling the software was a decisive one...it was real quick. That being said, one of their main if not the manager is named Tony. Tony is knowledgable, and decisive about his decisions from what I have seen from posted live chats on SBR. I believe him to be fair. He is also decisive and does not tolerate double talk. Straight forward he is...I feel that he would act that quickly to pull the software if he got word from a user whom he respected and backed up their theories with data. the wizard did this and Tony took the correct action.

I dont know why thewizard got his money back and I did not mine. I am happy about someone getting their cashback. I thank 5dimes for taking their time and listening to my stance. They made their decision and I am ok with it.

I would trust them with future deposits but I will also document all my future casino plays very carefully

Quote: binary128

Hello. My name is Chris Colby. I am the President of Galewind Software Corp.

Hi Chris, welcome to the forum. Let me say that I've known Chris since Pinnacle opened their casino. In the business of online gambling there are not many people that really understand the mathematics of gambling, but Chris is one of the few who does. In addition, Chris feels just as strongly about honest gambling as I do. When another Galewind customer stiffed a player of a large win for frivolous reasons Galewind shut down their casino and paid the player out of their own pockets.

I appreciate you sticking your head out at this time. Personally, I'll abstain from asking any questions at this time, as I am in delicate situation with all this. Hopefully the community here will have some good ones. This would be a good time to learn a thing or two about the relationship between casino and software provider. With that, I open the floor to questions for Chris.

Welcome Mr. Colby. Thank you for joining this forum.
I have a few questions... and thank you in advance for your time...
1. How does your company get paid? Do you sell your software for a set fee, or do you take a percentage of the profits that the purchasing company makes? Or is 'rented' on a per day basis?
2. After a sale, how do you check to make sure nothing like what happened to BLR will occur? Do you do daily tests, weekly, etc...
3. If you were unethical, and wanted to make more than the built in house edge, could you make a program to bump it up a tad? Example... could you make 00 on roulette occur once in 36 times instead of once in 38? Meaning something that would not be noticeable to the average bettor...
Super thanks for your answers...

I'd first like to quote from a post that I made on Casinomeister about this issue:

Quote: Me

clempops4, the thread initiator at tWoV, was amazingly persistent, and inspirationally diligent, in his attempts to get the forum's statisticians around to his side of the blackboard. But I was truly astounded at the amount of data that he included in several of his posts, and the trouble to which he went to put all of this on video and move it all up to youtube.

My hat is off to clempops4, boymimbo, DorothyGale, teliot, and the forum in general.

Now, the issue at hand.

Quote: boymimbo

There are a bunch of questions earlier proposed. Let's start with those regarding an online sportsbook's relationship to its casino. Really, the bottom question is, does the sportsbook owner know that its game is rigged?

Does the Sportsbook owner know that its game is rigged?

IMO, an unqualified no. The Sportsbook owner is aware that they have a Casino product, and is aware that this product makes some sort of impact on their financial bottom line. Beyond that, everything else is either on the edge of the radar screen, or off the screen altogether.

I would be surprised if they knew what specific games were in the Casino, what Theoretical RTP means, or what the Actual RTP is for any game in specific, or for the Casino in general, in any given month.

Their number one focus is the Sportsbook. If they offer an interface into one of the Poker networks, then that would probably be the number two focus. Awareness of Casino details would be a distant third place.

Obviously, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with that. They delegate this awareness, and this operation, to others. (Our product runs on Adobe Flash, yet the complete extent of my abilities there are; I can spell the word "Flash".)


Hi Mike.

Who would have guessed (I sure didn't) that when you first started this forum back in October 2009 (Happy 2-year Anniversary BTW) that it would morph into what it has become.

I've concluded that anyone having a problem with an online Casino which involves game play knowledge, especially if that knowledge extends into any level of statistical analysis, then they should just bring that problem here.

Re: "... sticking your head out at this time." Hmm. Sounds ominous. Are there injuns in them thar hills?

Am I reading this right. Does WWW own BLR Technologies?

World Wide Wagering
World Wide Wagering is an online sportsbook using BLRTech software licensed in Dominica. It is owned by World Wide Wagering. The site's primary language is English. A download is not required to place a wager.

http://online.casinocity.com/software/blr-technologies-inc/

click on View details of #4 WWW

Quote: Wizard

No. In my opinion, showing they cheat on the pass side was enough. There is already other evidence they cheat the other way as well.

Well, doesn't that basically implies that it cheats on the fly - whatever you choose, it comes up with a losing outcome for you?

Also, what is a sufficient enough amount of data before you can determined if an even chance game is rigged in there favor?

Read earlier in the thread, DubStep. There are a few statistical tests you can take to prove that a game in cheating you. In the case of craps, you use a "Chi-Squared" test to show that the variance from what is expected is. In the case of the OP's don't pass rolls, the come out rolls had a chi squared of 111.67 over 10 degrees of freedom while his pass rolls had a chi-squared of 81.98 over 11 degrees of freedom.

In the case of the first test (don't pass), the CHIDIST function in Excel shows a probability of 0.0000000000000000000245. A score of 52 gives a probability of about 10 million to one.
In the case of the 2nd test (pass), the CHIDIST function in Excel shows a probability of 0.000000000000610357. A score of 54 gives a probability of about 10 million to 1.

10 million to one is where I think most people in this forum start to blink. This is on the territory of being dealt 3 A-A in a row in texas holdem or having the same color roulette number coming up 22 times in a row. It just isn't probable.

The software is so blatant in cheating as well. The come out rolls on the don't pass showed a massive variance for 7 and a massive variance against 3 and 2. After the come out rolls, the software so blatantly pushed for the point that even on the points of 4 and 10, the dice came out more in favor for the point than against it, over 440 samples. The chi-squared of the result after come-out (138.72) had a probablitiy of 0.000000000000000000000000000334.

When the user switched to pass, the results were different showing a massive variance against the 7 and a massive variance for the 3 (the 3 came out 59 times while the 7 came out only 45 times, in 600 rolls). Of the 89 4 and 10 points made, there were only 14 successes. (expected 37.7).

Spare me the technical mumbo jumbo; can I have it in English please:)

Quote: DubStep

Spare me the technical mumbo jumbo; can I have it in English please:)

My attempt at the English:

It is often possible to calculate how likely a particular series of outcomes is to occur if the process is genuinely random. If an "allegedly-random" sequence of outcomes is outrageously inconsistent with "genuinely-random" behavior, there is reason to be suspicious. The probability of the "alleged" randomness being "genuine" may be calculated. In the case at hand, that probability is extremely low. If you want to understand how these calculations are performed, you will have to learn to understand "mumbo jumbo."

Quote: DubStep

Also, what is a sufficient enough amount of data before you can determined if an even chance game is rigged in there (sic) favor?

I personally would be satisfied with 30 trials of an even chance game if it gave a losing outcome to the player on all 30 trials ... that would be 1-in-2^30 = 1-in-1073741824 ... so for me, 30 trials is the minimum sufficient amount of data ... depending on the extent of the cheating, more trials would be needed ... for Mr. W., his 300 or so trials were plenty ... you don't need that many trials if the cheating is bad enough and BLR is really really bad ...

--Ms. D.

In my case the odds of winning only 843 bets out of 3200 is

.000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,340,894,340,662,349. That is a trillion,trillion,trillion,trillion,trillion,trillion,trillion,trillion,trillion,
trillion,trillion,trillion to 1 shot.

There is still a chance that I got unlucky but it is more likely to win the lottery 17 times in a row if the odds are 100,000,000 to 1 against you. It is more likely if there are 10,000 entries each year into the World Series of Poker that someone wins it 38 years in a row. It is more likely to put 10 numbers in a hat and pull out the same number 120 times in a row. Mathematically 843 bets of 3200 could happen in the next trillion years but it ain't gonna happen. That does not include the 153 wins of 564 bets that I did not video.

I can set up an account for you if you like. There is a high probability that the bad run is about to change.

Quote: SOOPOO

Welcome Mr. Colby. Thank you for joining this forum.
I have a few questions... and thank you in advance for your time...
1. How does your company get paid? Do you sell your software for a set fee, or do you take a percentage of the profits that the purchasing company makes? Or is 'rented' on a per day basis?
2. After a sale, how do you check to make sure nothing like what happened to BLR will occur? Do you do daily tests, weekly, etc...
3. If you were unethical, and wanted to make more than the built in house edge, could you make a program to bump it up a tad? Example... could you make 00 on roulette occur once in 36 times instead of once in 38? Meaning something that would not be noticeable to the average bettor...
Super thanks for your answers...

I view your question #1, as stated, as one of those "really no one else's business" questions.

However, having read through this thread, I believe that my answer to this question would then provide the input parameter for a second question. So, if you don't mind, I'll re-format your first question, and combine it with my understanding of this second question.

"Is Galewind's financial arrangement with our Customer (the Sportsbook) of such a nature that deploying a 'rigged' Casino game would be of financial benefit to Galewind?"

If Galewind was paid a percentage of the monthly profits from the Casino, then there would be 2 advantages to deploying a "rigged" game:

1. We would make more money. (A direct advantage.)

2. We would have a happy customer. (An indirect advantage.)

If Galewind was paid a fixed amount per month, then there would be 1 advantage:

1. We would have a happy customer.

A happy customer is a long term customer. Keeping existing customers is as important, if not more important, than getting new customers.

Therefore, regardless of my answer to your question #1, there would always be a financial advantage to Galewind in providing a "rigged" game.

That is, of course, until we got caught. At that point any advantage evaporates, Galewind is quite probably out of business, and any historical positive return experienced by our Customer (the Sportsbook) is overturned by the negative impact of this exposure.

So, it's like any other form of corruption; everything is great, until you get caught.

Regarding your questions #2 and #3: I'll point you to a Post That I Made in a thread at Casinomeister that I believe speaks to these issues.

And finally, I'll also point you to a Thread That I Started on Casinomeister. As with most of the longer threads on Casinomeister, it starts off by addressing Topic A, then begins to morph into addressing Topic B (and C, and D). This Casinomeister thread starts to get on target with this one starting around page 5 or so. (This is the first, and currently only, thread that I have ever started on any forum in the history of, well, dirt.)

Chris

Okay, then this question:

WorldWide and Legends continue to offer the fixed craps game. Why are they still operating the software? Why are customers still playing there? Obviously, the negative publicity doesn't affect their business model and they have no interest in removing their casinos from their site.

A post by another user (mightymaron) kind of says it all: he lost money playing a fixed game at 5 dimes but he will continue to book his money there because he's happy with the service otherwise. i don't get this.

Quote: boymimbo

Okay, then this question:

WorldWide and Legends continue to offer the fixed craps game. Why are they still operating the software? Why are customers still playing there? Obviously, the negative publicity doesn't affect their business model and they have no interest in removing their casinos from their site.

A post by another user (mightymaron) kind of says it all: he lost money playing a fixed game at 5 dimes but he will continue to book his money there because he's happy with the service otherwise. i don't get this.

Re: WorldWide and Legends. I was initially going to refer only to Newton's First Law of Motion in answering your question, but then it occurred to me that all three actually apply.

Suffice it to say: If the motion of a mass has not observably changed, in either direction or velocity, then one must conclude that a force sufficient to cause an observable change has not (yet?) been brought to bear.

I'm not trying to be glib or facetious here. I think a good question is: Is there someone at WorldWide or Legends who is in a position to make a decision about this even aware of what is going on here?

Re: mightymaron. I understand their position. The options available to the US Player for sports betting are very limited, and becoming more limited as time, and the DOJ, marches on.

I don't wager on sports events; that's a dead key on my piano. I know people that do. I have seen the additional excitement, the additional enjoyment, that they get from these wagers. In the same way that I have seen the enjoyment on the faces of people that like taking the rides at an amusement park.

In the US, one pastime is legal, and one is illegal. It's that simple.

(Yes, I know that you can go to B&M Casinos, Race Tracks, etc. and this is all legal. But my point remains the same.)

If my understanding is correct, then mightymaron has stated that they will continue to patronize the Sportsbook, because there are few options available, and will avoid any further action in their Casino.

As I said, I understand this.

I believe that I am speaking for every Sports bettor, every Poker player, every Casino player in the US when I say - "That kinda sucks, don't it?"

Chris

Quote: Wizard

Here is a preview of my BLR Technologies warning on my Odds site.

In looking at that, it seems that the win or lose on come out should be broken down to win on 7, win on 11, lose on 2, lose on 3 and lose on 12 ... you broke down the point win/loss by the value of the point, why not the same on the come out? ... I say this because I was looking over clempops4 data and when I did that kind of breakdown the chi even got more extreme ... I mean really extreme ... instead of impossible, it was really really impossible ...

Maybe you could just do that and post that table here?

--Ms. D.

Quote: DorothyGale

In looking at that, it seems that the win or lose on come out should be broken down to win on 7, win on 11, lose on 2, lose on 3 and lose on 12 ... you broke down the point win/loss by the value of the point, why not the same on the come out? ... I say this because I was looking over clempops4 data and when I did that kind of breakdown the chi even got more extreme ... I mean really extreme ... instead of impossible, it was really really impossible ...

Maybe you could just do that and post that table here?

--Ms. D.

Good suggestion. However, I didn't write down that information as I was playing. I would have to go over the whole video to get that breakdown. What I can assure you is that you would see a lot of threes on the come out roll. I'm sure it would add more digits to the inverse of the p value, but I think I've established more than a reasonable doubt already.

This has pretty much gone as far as it can go. I've posted the fact that the casinos are cheating in craps on CasinoMeister and SBR. CasinoMeister has rogued the casinos in question, but people continue to use 5Dimes (who have discontinued the software), Legends, and WorldWide. Buyer beware, I guess. The Wizard has rogued these casinos.

That's because the sportsbooks are fine. It's the casino software provider who is providing an unfair game, probably to give them more revenue, as they probably have a very favorable revenue sharing agreement with the casino. As was explained earlier, the casino is a very small part of these sportsbook's operations and it's likely that the sportsbook operating is unaware of its breakdown in revenue or even considered that the casino might be cheating its customers.

Still, the books should discontinue using BLR software. Given that Legends has just gone to live dealing (similar to 5 dimes), it's likely that Legends will dump BLR. WorldWide isn't very highly rated and they are flying under the radar, I guess.

Quote: boymimbo

This has pretty much gone as far as it can go.

That's like saying the AP/UB thing went as far as it could go when it was on 2+2, this should just be the beginning, the media should pick it up and run with it ... it's a huge scandal for these casinos to continue to use this rogue software (that may be cheating at other games) and for them to not compensate players who have been cheated ... bad stuff ... I hope it somehow gets out there and people get really pissed at these guys ...

--Ms. D.

Okay, let's rephrase. I've taken it pretty much as far I am willing to. It's up to the folks who interact with these casinos to act now. Will the media pick this up? Doubtful.

Quote: DorothyGale

That's like saying the AP/UB thing went as far as it could go when it was on 2+2, this should just be the beginning, the media should pick it up and run with it ... it's a huge scandal for these casinos to continue to use this rogue software (that may be cheating at other games) and for them to not compensate players who have been cheated ... bad stuff ... I hope it somehow gets out there and people get really pissed at these guys ...

--Ms. D.

They should, but after the UB/AP scandal I have no faith that it will get a huge wave anywhere. Phil Helmouth carried on advertising UB after they'd been caught. Sites were supposed to be "regulated" by any scandal making them so dirty, they'd close due to a lack of players. Didn't happen there, and as much as I'd love to see it happen here... I am skeptical.

In my opinion, online Casinos:

- should be using an RNG which has been certified by an approved Testing organization. This certification testing must extend into the software program's scaling/mapping algorithms, "shuffling" algorithms, and final game results.

- should publish this RNG Certification, and provide the name, phone number and/or email address of the contact at this Testing organization.

- should publish their complete game rules, in a manner and to an extent that those rules can be thoroughly verified through game play.

- should publish the Theoretical (Maximum) RTP values for all of their games.

- should have monthly audits of their game play logs performed by an approved Testing organization. In addition to providing the simple RTP values for the games (or game groups), these monthly audits should also perform statistical analyses of the game play results (card distributions, dice distributions, wheel distributions, etc. etc.) for all of their games.

- should publish these monthly audit results and certifications, along with the name, phone number and/or email address of the person to contact at the approved Testing organization that ran the audits.

- should be operating out of a jurisdiction which provides some level of mediation in the case of a dispute, and should provide the name, phone number and/or email address of the person to contact in the event that these mediation services become necessary.

- should, on request, provide a Player's complete game play logs, going back to a maximum of 2 years, in whatever format facilitates any statistical tests that the Player, or any representative of the Player, wishes to perform.


Is anyone aware of BLR satisfying any, most, or all of the above? (OK, I'll toot my own horn here - Is anyone aware of ANY Casino software provider, other than Galewind, that satisfies all of the above?)


Although the Wizard of Odds and Casinomeister are very powerful, and justifiably influential, names in the world of online Casinos, they are, in my opinion, neither as powerful nor as influential in the world of online Sportsbooks. (Mike, feel free to tell me I'm all wet here.) Thus my reference to the current lack of a sufficient force being brought to bear on this issue.

Quote: boymimbo

This has pretty much gone as far as it can go.

I believe a more accurate statement is that you have brought it as far as you are able to bring it. (Please don't take that the wrong way. I applaud you for your "above and beyond" efforts in posting on the SBR Forum. You gave it your best shot there, did all that you could do really. The fact that this SBR thread seems to have gone out with a whimper rather than a bang is actually somewhat surprising to me. I know the "SBR people" to be a bunch of stand-up guys.)

However, I don't believe that it has gone as far as it can go. Other forces may yet be brought to bear. As one example, the "wonders of the web" may cause this issue to (finally?) be brought to the attention of those who are in a position to do something about it.

I would like to believe that such highly regarded and respected Sportsbooks as Legends and World Wide Wagering are aware that, in providing this Casino product to their customers, they have vetted this product, and are honorable enough to realize that, in doing so, the ultimate responsibility for the product is theirs.

I would like to believe that any reputable Sportsbook would be above saying to their own Sportsbook/Casino customers "Buyer Beware" in the event that this sort of thing happened.

Chris

boymimbo,

LOL. Your last post and mine appear to have crossed in the mail.

Chris

Quote: binary128

In my opinion, online Casinos:...

I agree 100% with everything you wrote. That should be required reading for everybody in the business.

Quote: binary128

Is anyone aware of BLR satisfying any, most, or all of the above? (OK, I'll toot my own horn here - Is anyone aware of ANY Casino software provider, other than Galewind, that satisfies all of the above?)

Pass that horn over to me, I'll toot it myself.

Quote: binary128

Although the Wizard of Odds and Casinomeister are very powerful, and justifiably influential, names in the world of online Casinos, they are, in my opinion, neither as powerful nor as influential in the world of online Sportsbooks. (Mike, feel free to tell me I'm all wet here.)

You're right. My microphone is only so big. I've tried to get the print media interested in this and have a nibble so far.

Quote: Wizard

You're right. My microphone is only so big. I've tried to get the print media interested in this and have a nibble so far.

Well, I happen to know a US law firm that's been successful in trials against offshore gaming operators based on the US citizenship of the gambler. If clempops4 is a US citizen, he may have a case. I'm not sure it would be worth filing, though, because the operator or software vendor simply won't respond, then you'll get a default judgment and damages (which are well-documented), and then what? I don't think you can collect unless they do business here, but I'm not an attorney so that's where it gets fuzzy for me.

To echo many prior posters, this is why the US needs to regulate online gaming.

But it's EVIL, can't touch it.

Quote: MathExtremist

To echo many prior posters, this is why the US needs to regulate online gaming.

Ya, let's legalize prostitution, drugs, and everything else while we're at it, for the same "reason". Or more accurately, let our governments and the other proponents of all that do so so that "the richer get richer".

Quote: DorothyGale

... to gradually see his work understood, investigated, and then vindicated, and then to stand victorious having brought down some of the biggest casinos on the planet ...

Take a bow, man!!!

-Ms. D.

Too-funny; and quite a waste of time and effort, as i earlier predicted it would be.

As long as we systematically or inadvertently continue to avoid/ignore the basic liabilities/benefits and other real issues regarding casinos and gambling, thoselves, there can be no real such justice for any of us here. (Hmm, unless i missed his response(s) to my previous reply, about that "beloved" bodog casino illegally extending itself to where it wasn't welcomed, it looks like the Wiz has finally been "stumped". That was easy.)

Quote: Garnabby

Ya, let's legalize prostitution, drugs, and everything else while we're at it, for the same "reason".

I don't want to derail this thread, but (a) gambling is a qualitatively different vice than "prostitution, drugs, and everything else", and (b) in any event, blunt sarcasm is a poor substitute for a cogent argument as to why prostitution, drugs and everything else shouldn't be legal. But let's take that topic elsewhere.

I think there's only a handful of states that do not offer B&M casinos anymore. Every state has a lottery (except NV) where you can buy lottery tickets and scratch tickets to your heart's content. Those who do gamble online should be able to do so without fear of losing their deposits and playing a fair game.

As for the basic liabilities and real issues regarding gambling, there are plenty. But if the government's position (and it clearly is) that it's fine to tax the dumb and stupid (slot machine players, martingalers) and addicted (somewhere between 30 and 50% of revenue comes from "problem gamblers - which represents about 3-5% of all gamblers -- the addition of Brick and Mortar casinos to a state increases problem gamblers in that state by a factor of 3), then by all means, why not on-line as well???

Quote: MathExtremist

To echo many prior posters, this is why the US needs to regulate online gaming.

In a previous life, I was for about 8 years the Director of Quality Assurance for a large US Manufacturer in the Automotive and Telecommunications markets. As such, I have a great deal of insight into the operations of the regulatory agencies (eCOGRA, AGCC, Kahnawake, et. al) which are providing these kinds of services to the online Casino industry.

I expect that the details of my insight would put a speed freak to sleep, therefore I will spare you. Suffice it to say; even organizations which have been in existence for many years continue to stumble (and fall, and stumble, and fall, and stumble) their way into the future. They are applying (or rather, attempting to apply) ISO 9001 Quality System Standards to this environment, and are conscientiously, rigorously, thoroughly, sincerely, and with integrity, honesty and transparency, failing miserably.

Obviously, Full Tilt Poker is the "Bernie Madoff" example - just huge, unbelievably huge. There are dozens of others, smaller in scale (what could possibly be larger), but probably more extreme in their level of corruption. (I, for one, am inclined to ascribe to Full Tilt a greater level of incompetence than corruption, but hey, what do I know?)

I provide Example One and Example Two for your consideration on the issue of regulation. Here we have a well-respected company, years of history, publicly traded - and they went and did what they did here. And, if the offended party wishes to contest their actions, then it will be months, several months, (probably more than several months), before they see any resolution. And given the size of BetFair's legal staff, I for one wouldn't bet a nickel on a positive outcome for this person.

When I read this, I just got depressed. Can you imagine that happening to you? Someone enters your house and removes all of your furniture. You spend months, and thousands of dollars in legal expenses, to fight this. And if you win, what happens? You get your furniture back.

This is really an example of that old expression: "You get only that amount of Justice that you can afford." Which is just depressing.

I don't know. I just don't know.

Chris

Quote: MathExtremist

... blunt sarcasm is a poor substitute for a cogent argument as to why prostitution, drugs and everything else shouldn't be legal. But let's take that topic elsewhere.

That's the problem with 'cogent arguments' on a gambling message-board... we overlook things like why "25% back on losses" (if i read it right) is another "screw job". I mean, if a person plays $10, and ends up with $2.50 on a crooked 25% proposition, shouldn't he then receive 25% of the $10? Or a lot more than that, for the guys who ended up with $5 or more, against those nearly-impossible odds over the long-run? (Some guy probably won 10's of thousands without even knowing it. And all with the Wiz's countenance. Gee.)

Not that i think i was being sarcastic either.

What exactly are you saying, Garnabby?

It seems to me that you think online gaming is a disease. Could you please expand on that?

It is depressing. But this is the online gambling industry today. Buyer beware. It's why I support regulated online gaming. If 37 states and 8 provinces are going to have brick and mortar casinos, VLTS, racetracks, and convenience stores where you can buy lottery tickets, then the slope has been slipped.

I no longer play online after personally being convinced of foul play.

Let’s not forget that online gaming is a huge business for a lot of people / affiliates. This issue will not be exploited; not even to the people that would even care. The online casino gaming industry in its present form is worst then dealing with the mob prior to regulation and enforcement in Vegas.

The present online environment has been going on maybe more then 15 years already, and the games are only the half of it.

Not until the USA joins in should anyone expect regulation with enforcement.

Quote: boymimbo

I think there's only a handful of states that do not offer B&M casinos anymore.

NH, VT, MA, SC, GA, TN, KY, NE, UT,WY, AK, HI? Maybe TX too, if you consider the Lucky Eagle to be outside of the state lines. And I guess Ohio's casinos aren't quite open yet. MA, GA, and SC could be taken off the list if their day cruise boats counted as B&M casinos.

I think I have a problem with the problem gambler statistic. I get that it's a problem for AK and HI where you're making it remarkably more easy to gamble by adding B&M casinos. But I don't buy that more people in NE would gamble if there were casinos in Omaha instead of just in Council Bluffs. The 20 people in western NE are really just costing themselves the increased tax revenues on that one.

Quote: rdw4potus

NH, VT, MA, SC, GA, TN, KY, NE, UT,WY, AK, HI? Maybe TX too, if you consider the Lucky Eagle to be outside of the state lines. And I guess Ohio's casinos aren't quite open yet. MA, GA, and SC could be taken off the list if their day cruise boats counted as B&M casinos.

AR, VA, and AL too. RI has a racino, but no casinos. MA is soon to fall. HI, UT, WY, AL, AK and MS also don't have lotteries for some reason.

I have no idea why things persist.
Quite some time ago some poker shenanigans were exposed and the various poker sites sounded like Tobacco Companies and the various poker celebrities clothed themselves in white and claimed ignorance of anything improper.

It seems to be the same with software. If the various people on this forum who exposed the truth about the BLR software had used unique tools or unique data sources that might be one thing, but a chi square test is a simple bit of freely available software that can be found in any high school introductory text book. I tend to think therefore that the sites that operate casinos for a living should have the expertise and the time to analyze all programs that they use.

Brick casinos test games and chips that are brought to them. Online casinos should test software as well.

The casino does not test the horse's urine but it should test the race track's membership in such testing programs.
The online casino is perfectly free to buy an existing crap game from someone, but they should test it just as vigorously as they would test a live craps crew that they hired for online play.

We would never let a bricks casino survive something like this and so we should never let an online casino survive it either.

The problem is that the size of "we" << "customers". Even if the general media gets of a hold of this (and they won't) it won't stop people from gambling there.

At 5 dimes, which is a premier online sportsbook, they were running their crooked casino alongside a "bonus casino" and a "live play' casino. The "bonus casino" had statements on it from two members of this forum verifying the games soundness at that casino. The "cash back" casino was featured just below the "bonus casino" but had no corresponding statement. It's misleading.

Legendz is still claiming ignorance. Worldwide hasn't done or said anything, AFAIK.

Quote: teddys

AR, VA, and AL too. RI has a racino, but no casinos. MA is soon to fall. HI, UT, WY, AL, AK and MS also don't have lotteries for some reason.

I guess it depends on what we call a "casino." AR has two slot parlors with games of "skill" like NC. AL has slots-only establishments. I've been to the RI "racino." It's MFing huge, but without table games. What characteristics does a racino have to have before it's a casino? Is Harrah's Chester a casino? Is Louisiana Downs? You're right that I missed VA, and I'm not sure if MD has actually moved forward with anything despite the new legality of slots there.

Quote: rdw4potus

... Is Harrah's Chester a casino?

The fact that I played craps there in August qualifies it to me as being a real casino.

I just uploaded the videos of my play. There are eight of them, and each is nine minutes long.

part 1
part 2
part 3
part 4
part 5
part 6
part 7
part 8

Quote: boymimbo

What exactly are you saying, Garnabby?

It seems to me that you think online gaming is a disease. Could you please expand on that?

The gaming part of gambling likley averages out to about 1/1000th of the total player-experience... 'gaming' defined as the methodical planning, and actual transpiring of real results. What lay in between are the relatively-powerful addicting parts. And in general, the latter being more of a psychological disorder than a physical disease or defect. It would seem then, that most of those figures bandied about about how it's the few players/casinos at some sort of full fault (, while the others then are all sacrosanct by comparison,) must be flawed "eye-wash". Serious, well-informed investors wouldn't waste all that time playing with the "fluff". In fact, from my own casino-experience as a player, i would say that often it's the most-addicted who appear to be the least-addicted; and versa. Consider even those "home grown" internet-communities of almost all ilks, specifically eg, of the authoritative-looking, storied "real players". Let's turn the "mush into pulp", shall we?

I'm not sure that you're pinning the cause/effect of this "disease" on the player, and/or another agent "higher up". After some thought over the years, i lay most of the blame for any such problems squarely on the "gambling industry", which invariably [bends/breaks] the law to "force" itself onto vulnerable market-places. That said, it's important to arm those communities of players, employees, other businesses, et al, with good, solid strategies to not become another sad "statistic". By side-stepping the illusions of "empowerment". I can't spell their names off-hand, but you know the despots to whom i refer about clinging to such "power" even in the face of imminent death... as i point out how vulnerable are they who are just vulnerable, without their own sense of real self-empowerment. It's easy when you're actually rich and influential, in your own mind at least, to place a few "social bets", and then walk away. But if you don't own a few web-sites, or something else, to gainfully-ostensively occupy yourself, and someone else who does offers to make you an instant "hero" forever in yours... how tempting is that?

Quote: FleaStiff

We would never let a bricks casino survive something like this and so we should never let an online casino survive it either.

I, myself, successfully sued a major casino for cheat-at-play at blackjack. Yes, cheat-at-play is the criminal-racketeering aspect of that, which was essentially beyond my control (to ultimately have the criminal charge laid and a summons to appear before a judge/justice-of-the-peace issued, etc.)

In no uncertain terms, then, i can advise you that the "we" part of this is quite-irrelevant. Have you ever heard of any casino being ordered to close its doors? I haven't, but even then that would have to be undertaken from within that so-called "industry", itself. The only time a rich guy falls, it's at the hands of the other rich guys... when he becomes too much of a threat to their own political credibility. (In my estimation, every scheme is ultimately a "pyramid scheme".) Only then will, eg, the media even consider becoming involved. So it is, innocently "lurking"... corruption at all levels.

Quote: rdw4potus

I guess it depends on what we call a "casino." AR has two slot parlors with games of "skill" like NC. AL has slots-only establishments. I've been to the RI "racino." It's MFing huge, but without table games. What characteristics does a racino have to have before it's a casino? Is Harrah's Chester a casino? Is Louisiana Downs? You're right that I missed VA, and I'm not sure if MD has actually moved forward with anything despite the new legality of slots there.

There are two in RI: Twin Rivers in Lincoln is the one that's "MFing huge" and has Shufflemaster BJ and Digital Roulette, very bad VP and a ton of slots. There is also a smaller one in Newport that, despite being in one of the nicest resort towns in the USA, is horribly dumpy and much smaller. Only a couple of Shufflemasters there, and the VP is even worse. Both are run by the RI Lottery.

For me, you need to have live table games to be a casino.

Quote: Wizard

I just uploaded the videos of my play. There are eight of them, and each is nine minutes long.

part 1
part 2
part 3
part 4
part 5
part 6
part 7
part 8

I am enjoying watching the vidoes. 5dimes refuses to refund my craps session in August with the same brutal results. They wont answer emails on this any more.