mightymaron
mightymaron
Joined: Nov 2, 2011
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November 5th, 2011 at 5:01:01 AM permalink
Quote: mightymaron

I had not known about this issue til someone posted on SBR about it. I encountered this back in August and posted about it on SBR.


Under my handle mighty maron I encountered the craps game at the rebate/cash back casino. I got killed fast for at least 100.

To be fair, the bonus casino craps I have made more than I have lost. The rebate casino was instant death for craps for me

TY for finding this out, I emailed about losses



Congrats wizard on getting your losses back. I got a two line email back from 5dimes. "The decision taken by our management is that we are not going to offer the Cashback casino in our website anymore. Regarding your losses, those will not be returned."

I had a documented session in my records where I played the same software on the same site (5dimes) playing craps only betting no pass...I lost every roll. This was the session I brought up to 5dimes and they said no in regards to losses being returned
DorothyGale
DorothyGale
Joined: Nov 23, 2009
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November 5th, 2011 at 6:58:07 AM permalink
Quote: mightymaron

Congrats wizard on getting your losses back. I got a two line email back from 5dimes. "The decision taken by our management is that we are not going to offer the Cashback casino in our website anymore. Regarding your losses, those will not be returned."

I had a documented session in my records where I played the same software on the same site (5dimes) playing craps only betting no pass...I lost every roll. This was the session I brought up to 5dimes and they said no in regards to losses being returned

I just read your post over there at sbrforum, too bad, too bad ... that shows how hard it is to get people who can do something about it to notice ... clempops4 shot videos and posted them to YouTube ... a good lesson on outing cheats ...

Do you think 5Dimes knew they were dishing cheating software? they were a bit too quick to back out of the software and disown it, as if they knew they were caught red handed ... kind of like a kid saying "I didn't do it!" meaning he did it ...

--Ms. D.
"Who would have thought a good little girl like you could destroy my beautiful wickedness!"
boymimbo
boymimbo
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November 5th, 2011 at 7:23:50 AM permalink
This brings me to another point. We know that 5Dimes was operating the rogue software. They took it down right away when the Wizard pointed out that they were cheating the player, and refunded his losses.

So, does 5 Dimes not OWE every single craps player who lost at that casino at least a portion of their money back? I mean, the software provider has taken a game that usually has a HA of the order of 1.4% and changed it to a 46% game and adapted the software to clean out players NO matter what they were betting.

Especially when the "Bonus Casino" has testimonials by our esteemed Wizard and TEliot that states that the "bonus casino" is fair? Even though there was no such testimonial on the "Cash Back" casino, the testimonials were on the same WEB PAGE, so why wouldn't people think that the "Cash Back" casino was fair?

So, as far as I am concerned, 5 DIMES should be rogued until they remedy the players that WERE cheated. And I would also not trust ANY of their games. Once a cheat, always a cheat.

Now, that said, I would like to hear from an expert on how a relationship between a business that deals primarily with sportsbooking would operate their casino? Is it possible to simply have a 3rd party arrangement where the 3rd party runs the casino and simply writes the book a check each month for a portion of revenues in order to bring more traffic to the site? Or do you think the sites are more complicit than that and get detailed stats on its wins. And if they do get that report on how it gets those wins, is there someone at 5 Dimes that actually understands craps and that that revenue was too high given the odds?
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
Wizard
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Wizard
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November 5th, 2011 at 7:48:29 AM permalink
This is an illustrated example of why I got out of the certification business years ago. Regarding taking any further action, the dynamite in the tunnel has just gone off and I'd like to wait a bit longer for the dust to clear. I would also be interested to know the financial relationship between 5dimes and BLR, to know who profited directly from the action in the casino. It should be noted that 5dimes offered a 25% rebate on losses on a weekly basis, so players should have already received that much back.

This may not be very applicable, but I've played in the live dealer casino at 5dimes a fair bit. Once I complained to 5dimes that although the dealers reside in Costa Rica, and obviously understood Spanish, they would only speak back in English, even if I was the only player at the table. I asked them to speak in Spanish but they just wouldn't do it. Anyway, 5dimes responded by saying that they had no control over the live dealer casino, and acted mainly as a gateway, as I recall.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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November 5th, 2011 at 7:57:10 AM permalink
Exactly. One of my last clients that I worked for was a Professional Employer Organization (PEO). They are basically outsourced Human Resources. They are responsible for payroll, 401K administration, garnishments, onboarding, and termination. There are about 3,000,000 Americans who are paid that way. For mid-sized employers, outsourcing their HR means that they don't have to know the rules and regulations of their business. They pay a premium on payroll in order to outsource their payroll. The advantage is that the small to medium business owner doesn't have to worry about government regulation as the PEO becomes the employer of record.

For many sportsbooks, most of its money is made on the book itself and they are likely in business and have their business model centered on the book. They probably also get a kickback on deposits. They realize that people who bet on books are also likely to gamble, so they have a casino. Now, given the business model, it's quite possible that the casino in question is simply using BLR casino's in a revenue sharing model where they don't have to worry about its administration. They get a cut every month based on a verifiable report, and they're happy.
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
binary128
binary128
Joined: Nov 5, 2011
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November 5th, 2011 at 10:16:58 AM permalink
Hello. My name is Chris Colby. I am the President of Galewind Software Corp.

Galewind Software is the Casino software supplier to Pinnacle Sports, and has been for over 7 years.

(The Wizard has written a Galewind Software Review, for those who are interested.)

It was suggested to me by another member of this forum that I may be able to provide input of some value to the recent questions being raised in this thread.

Prior to doing so, however, I would like to preface any subsequent remarks with the following "out clause": the answers to some questions are really no one else's business.

As those who know me may attest, I'm a pretty open and honest person, and I will do my best to provide what answers I can here. I do not hold myself out as the definitive source for all things "Sportsbook & Casino" related, but I think I can provide some accurate data.

Chris
boymimbo
boymimbo
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November 5th, 2011 at 2:01:19 PM permalink
There are a bunch of questions earlier proposed. Let's start with those regarding an online sportsbook's relationship to its casino. Really, the bottom question is, does the sportsbook owner know that its game is rigged?
----- You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
mightymaron
mightymaron
Joined: Nov 2, 2011
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November 5th, 2011 at 3:11:17 PM permalink
Quote: DorothyGale

I just read your post over there at sbrforum, too bad, too bad ... that shows how hard it is to get people who can do something about it to notice ... clempops4 shot videos and posted them to YouTube ... a good lesson on outing cheats ...

Do you think 5Dimes knew they were dishing cheating software? they were a bit too quick to back out of the software and disown it, as if they knew they were caught red handed ... kind of like a kid saying "I didn't do it!" meaning he did it ...

--Ms. D.



The bonus casino I always felt like I have had more than a fair shot at. In the bonus casino I have cashed out more than I have deposited, The craps software I was feasting on. I could go on some big upswings there. Twice I even hit the field bet wagering 600 and paying 2.9x. Even the bonus casino roulette where I once lost 20 color bets in a row, I dont get the feeling of it being off. Now when I played that cashback/rebate casino...wow it was instant death. You did not feel like you had any chance.

The action of pulling the software was a decisive one...it was real quick. That being said, one of their main if not the manager is named Tony. Tony is knowledgable, and decisive about his decisions from what I have seen from posted live chats on SBR. I believe him to be fair. He is also decisive and does not tolerate double talk. Straight forward he is...I feel that he would act that quickly to pull the software if he got word from a user whom he respected and backed up their theories with data. the wizard did this and Tony took the correct action.

I dont know why thewizard got his money back and I did not mine. I am happy about someone getting their cashback. I thank 5dimes for taking their time and listening to my stance. They made their decision and I am ok with it.

I would trust them with future deposits but I will also document all my future casino plays very carefully
Wizard
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Wizard
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November 5th, 2011 at 3:21:29 PM permalink
Quote: binary128

Hello. My name is Chris Colby. I am the President of Galewind Software Corp.



Hi Chris, welcome to the forum. Let me say that I've known Chris since Pinnacle opened their casino. In the business of online gambling there are not many people that really understand the mathematics of gambling, but Chris is one of the few who does. In addition, Chris feels just as strongly about honest gambling as I do. When another Galewind customer stiffed a player of a large win for frivolous reasons Galewind shut down their casino and paid the player out of their own pockets.

I appreciate you sticking your head out at this time. Personally, I'll abstain from asking any questions at this time, as I am in delicate situation with all this. Hopefully the community here will have some good ones. This would be a good time to learn a thing or two about the relationship between casino and software provider. With that, I open the floor to questions for Chris.
It's not whether you win or lose; it's whether or not you had a good bet.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
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November 5th, 2011 at 4:16:20 PM permalink
Welcome Mr. Colby. Thank you for joining this forum.
I have a few questions... and thank you in advance for your time...
1. How does your company get paid? Do you sell your software for a set fee, or do you take a percentage of the profits that the purchasing company makes? Or is 'rented' on a per day basis?
2. After a sale, how do you check to make sure nothing like what happened to BLR will occur? Do you do daily tests, weekly, etc...
3. If you were unethical, and wanted to make more than the built in house edge, could you make a program to bump it up a tad? Example... could you make 00 on roulette occur once in 36 times instead of once in 38? Meaning something that would not be noticeable to the average bettor...
Super thanks for your answers...

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