Poll

5 votes (13.88%)
25 votes (69.44%)
6 votes (16.66%)

36 members have voted

boxman4
boxman4
Joined: Oct 12, 2011
  • Threads: 2
  • Posts: 9
October 26th, 2011 at 11:21:58 PM permalink
I have been in the business 8 years now, 7 of which have predominately been on a craps game, and until this weekend had never witnessed stacked dice after a roll. This not only happened, but it happened twice within 20 minutes, same stick man on both occasions, who quickly slapped them calling no roll. I vaguely remember learning about this in school, and believe it to be a valid roll, obviously calling the tops of both. Unfortunately our hands were tied on the second such roll, forced to call no roll since it happened so closely to the first with pretty much all the same players. I work with many who have been doing this 20 plus years, some of which also had never witnessed stacked dice. My question to all of you is have you witnessed this and how often?
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
October 27th, 2011 at 2:19:03 AM permalink
Yeah, once. Decades ago.
The rule is that as long as they wound up stacked atop one another with no outside influence that would otherwise cause a no-roll, then the stacked dice roll is valid despite all the brash young stickmen who don't know their jobs and want to call no roll. A die landing atop a stack of chips is valid. A die landing atop another die is valid.

That stick should have been written up. Twice.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 206
  • Posts: 10972
October 27th, 2011 at 5:12:50 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

The rule is ... the stacked dice roll is valid.

How can you tell what the bottom die is?

If one die is on top of the other, you cannot be certain of the top face on the bottom die. More importantly, the eye in the sky can't see it either.

Therefore, I would think it's a No-Roll. Of course, if I were the stick, I might have asked the floorman for a ruling.



Quote: FleaStiff

A die landing atop a stack of chips is valid. A die landing atop another die is valid.

Yeah, but in that case, you can still see which face is up, without having to touch anything.

If a die is leaning against the rail or chips, you can see which way it would fall without actually moving the chips or rail.

In fact, you see it all the time where a die lands behind the dealers stack. The dealer will move the stack, before moving the die. The obvious reason is so there's no chance of funny business.


When they're stacked, you're asking the dealer to touch a die before the roll is known? That's just begging someone to complain, particularly if the roll turns out to be a seven out.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
October 27th, 2011 at 5:26:26 AM permalink
First of all by looking at the sides you should be able to tell, but you call out the top die and move it carefully then call out the bottom die. What do you think all those mirrors are for but to catch people who try to sneak Tops into a dice game. Opposite faces of a die add to Seven.
Anyway, the rules used to be quite clear. Stacked Dice were a valid roll as long as that is simply how they landed and no one did anything to influence it. Striking a player's sleeve and bouncing onto the bottom die was valid but adhering to a woolen sleeve and then after a brief delay merely falling onto the bottom die was not.

If the throw was proper and stayed within the table its a valid roll even if they land atop each other. You want to encourage the proper throws and the throws that don't go wild but you don't want to discourage those random bounces because that is what keeps things fair. If a die lands cocked against something such as a stack of chips... its the Ice Cube Rule. Think of melting ice and call out how it will land when the ice melts.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
  • Threads: 206
  • Posts: 10972
October 27th, 2011 at 5:43:24 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

First of all by looking at the sides you should be able to tell...

Nope. You'd have to know if the dice are right-handed or left-handed.

I will of course defer to the rules, but it just rubs me the wrong way that a dealer would have to reach in and handle one die before the complete roll is known.

I understand not wanting to discourage random rolls, but it happens so rarely, and it seems like such an impossible trick to achieve on demand, that there's nothing a dealer can say.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
October 27th, 2011 at 7:52:08 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Nope. You'd have to know if the dice are right-handed or left-handed.

Usually the set of five dice supplied at opening of the table are going to be all the same. Type, color, even sequential numbers.
Fleaswatter
Fleaswatter
Joined: Dec 1, 2010
  • Threads: 10
  • Posts: 442
October 27th, 2011 at 10:52:32 AM permalink
From New Jersey gaming rules:

19:47-1.9 Invalid roll of the dice
(a) A roll of the dice shall be invalid whenever either or both of the dice go off the table or whenever one die comes to rest on top of the other.


http://www.state.nj.us/casinos/actreg/reg/chapter_47.html#8
new motto for the left: 的 don't know if I received bad information, but I think I suspected there was more than there actually was, (John Brennan Mar 25, 2019)
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
October 27th, 2011 at 12:34:34 PM permalink
Quote: boxman4

I have been in the business 8 years now, 7 of which have predominately been on a craps game, and until this weekend had never witnessed stacked dice after a roll. This not only happened, but it happened twice within 20 minutes, same stick man on both occasions, who quickly slapped them calling no roll. I vaguely remember learning about this in school, and believe it to be a valid roll, obviously calling the tops of both. Unfortunately our hands were tied on the second such roll, forced to call no roll since it happened so closely to the first with pretty much all the same players. I work with many who have been doing this 20 plus years, some of which also had never witnessed stacked dice. My question to all of you is have you witnessed this and how often?



I've seen it happen a few times. As I recall, in each case, the end of the table was crowded with stacks of line and odds bets which helped to keep the dice from bounding all over. In each case, the stick asked for a call from the dealer on that side. The dealer would gingerly pick up the top die, and make the call. Everyone was watching to see if the bottom die was moved, so no one complained.

For me at least, it seems that I've seen it as often as a die leaning against a stack of chips at, what appeared to me, exactly 45 degrees on an edge. The call went the shooter's way one time, and seven out the other.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
7outlineaway
7outlineaway
Joined: Nov 13, 2009
  • Threads: 9
  • Posts: 282
October 27th, 2011 at 8:46:01 PM permalink
It's a no-roll in Colorado as well. Exact same wording as the NJ law.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1474
  • Posts: 25957
October 28th, 2011 at 10:25:05 AM permalink
I just had breakfast with "The Bone Man," a dice dealer here in Vegas. He said the number of times he has seen that happen is zero. However, if it did, it would be a valid roll. They would lift the top die to expose the bottom one.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
kaysirtap
kaysirtap
Joined: Nov 1, 2011
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 55
November 1st, 2011 at 1:58:09 PM permalink
When I learned to deal, I was taught that the dice had to be called before either of them were moved. Having said that, it is possible to determine the upward face by looking at the other sides.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1474
  • Posts: 25957
November 1st, 2011 at 2:26:45 PM permalink
Quote: kaysirtap

When I learned to deal, I was taught that the dice had to be called before either of them were moved. Having said that, it is possible to determine the upward face by looking at the other sides.



Yes! First, by looking at the four exposed sides you can narrow down the side on top to two possibilities.

If it is 1 or 6, the 2 and 3 form a V shape, pointing towards the 6.

If it is a 2 or 5, then if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 6, then the 2 is on top; if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 1, then the 5 is on top.

If it is a 3 or 4, then if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 6, then the 3 is on top; if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 1, then the 4 is on top.

Some cheap dice may not follow this convention, but Vegas-standard dice all should.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
November 1st, 2011 at 3:07:39 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes! First, by looking at the four exposed sides you can narrow down the side on top to two possibilities.

If it is 1 or 6, the 2 and 3 form a V shape, pointing towards the 6.

If it is a 2 or 5, then if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 6, then the 2 is on top; if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 1, then the 5 is on top.

If it is a 3 or 4, then if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 6, then the 3 is on top; if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 1, then the 4 is on top.

Some cheap dice may not follow this convention, but Vegas-standard dice all should.



when i was in jail in maricopa county making dice, i would always make them this way and people thought that looked odd. i thought it looked odd any other way. a lot of mexicans who made dice would make a 2 as two dots across the die instead of at opposite corners. does anyone know if this is common practice in mexico?
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1474
  • Posts: 25957
November 1st, 2011 at 3:12:09 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

when i was in jail in maricopa county making dice, i would always make them this way and people thought that looked odd. i thought it looked odd any other way. a lot of mexicans who made dice would make a 2 as two dots across the die instead of at opposite corners. does anyone know if this is common practice in mexico?



Nareed? I can say that Chinese dice used in pai gow and sic bo put the two dots across the face like that.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
November 1st, 2011 at 3:18:07 PM permalink
is 2 lucky in china or something?

it seems so out of place in regards to how they arrange the rest of the dots on the other faces.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1474
  • Posts: 25957
November 1st, 2011 at 3:20:25 PM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

is 2 lucky in china or something?



No, nothing special about it, as far as I know. Just about all there is to know is that 4 is bad and 8 is good.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
kaysirtap
kaysirtap
Joined: Nov 1, 2011
  • Threads: 3
  • Posts: 55
November 1st, 2011 at 3:29:36 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Yes! First, by looking at the four exposed sides you can narrow down the side on top to two possibilities.

If it is 1 or 6, the 2 and 3 form a V shape, pointing towards the 6.

If it is a 2 or 5, then if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 6, then the 2 is on top; if the high dot on the 3 is close to the 1, then the 5 is on top.

If it is a 3 or 4, then if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 6, then the 3 is on top; if the high dot on the 2 is close to the 1, then the 4 is on top.

Some cheap dice may not follow this convention, but Vegas-standard dice all should.



I believe if the bottom die were obstructed somehow and only two adjacent sides were visible, you would still be able to determine the upward face regardless of whether or not the 2 or 3 were showing.
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
November 1st, 2011 at 3:30:32 PM permalink
Two across the horizontal makes two and three and four more distinguishable, I guess. Only Six has pips on the edge of the square. All the rest have pips in the corner or the centre.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Nareed
Nareed
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
November 1st, 2011 at 3:37:57 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Nareed?




Opposite corners in every board game and backgammon set I ever saw.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9398
November 2nd, 2011 at 2:16:25 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

when i was in jail in maricopa county making dice...



how did you go about making your own dice?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: 典hanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
November 2nd, 2011 at 3:22:48 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I just had breakfast with "The Bone Man," a dice dealer here in Vegas. He said the number of times he has seen that happen is zero. However, if it did, it would be a valid roll. They would lift the top die to expose the bottom one.


So perhaps we should think of this as "Vegas Rules" (in the sense of Vegas Triumphs) but remember that there is no National Manual of Craps and that Colorado and New Jersey by statute make different rules. I guess that is what has been happening in casino gambling nationwide. Vegas is the final arbiter but nationwide gambling means different rules. And todays dice crews do not have the experience or the respect for the old ways.
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
November 2nd, 2011 at 9:18:38 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

how did you go about making your own dice?



with toilet paper, state soap, and state toothpaste. you rip up the toilet paper into little pieces. mix it with the state soap and toothpaste and it forms a putty. then you form it into a cube shape in the corner of something. under the table in your cell was the best place to form it. then i went above and beyond. i would soak pencils in hot water until you can tear them apart and remove the lead. then grind up the lead into little shavings with an emery board. mix it with dandruff shampoo. it makes a black/greyish color and you can paint the dice with them. then i would poke holes in the dice with a pencil and fill them in with toothpaste. so you would have black dice with white dots.
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
  • Threads: 1474
  • Posts: 25957
November 2nd, 2011 at 9:45:00 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

... then i went above and beyond. i would soak pencils in hot water until you can tear them apart and remove the lead. then grind up the lead into little shavings with an emery board. mix it with dandruff shampoo. it makes a black/greyish color and you can paint the dice with them. then i would poke holes in the dice with a pencil and fill them in with toothpaste. so you would have black dice with white dots.



I have to admire your resourcefulness and attention to detail.
摘xtraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. -- Carl Sagan
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 2001
November 2nd, 2011 at 10:41:53 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I have to admire your resourcefulness and attention to detail.



thanks :)
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
  • Threads: 326
  • Posts: 9398
November 3rd, 2011 at 2:21:38 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I have to admire your resourcefulness and attention to detail.



likewise!
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: 典hanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
MrRalph
MrRalph
Joined: Jun 8, 2011
  • Threads: 17
  • Posts: 148
November 3rd, 2011 at 5:38:41 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I just had breakfast with "The Bone Man," a dice dealer here in Vegas. He said the number of times he has seen that happen is zero. However, if it did, it would be a valid roll. They would lift the top die to expose the bottom one.

Doesn't he have his own web site and promote dice control as well as proper betting and the other finer points of the game? If so maybe he could be of help in locating a controlled shooter who would be willing to do a test similar to the one expressed in the thread about Stanford Wongs opinion of Dice control. If I remember correctly the Bone Man does believe it is possible to influence the dice and he has seen it done.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
November 3rd, 2011 at 6:43:49 AM permalink
My recollection is that The Bone Man would be opposed to anything that takes excessive time at a dice game and that he would be doubtful of the dice-setting claims until he actually sees a valid test rather than some of these short term shows. Remember, having great respect for Stanford Wong means according him a measure of forbearance from being a naysayer but it doesn't necessarily mean adopting a belief in dice control, merely abstaining from attacking it.
algle
algle
Joined: Aug 12, 2010
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 82
November 16th, 2011 at 7:41:21 PM permalink
When I played craps in NZ [sadly no longer available anywhere here], I looked up the official government rules and saw the following criteria for a NO ROLL after the dice come to rest within the bounds of the table [assuming the dice were correctly rolled initially with no player interference]:

* Any die landing in the dice boat = NO ROLL
* Any die landing on the bank = NO ROLL (but landing on any bet or dealer's working stack is valid)
* One die landing on top of the other = NO ROLL

I witnessed all of these events, all correctly called NO ROLL by the stick/boxman, at least once over about 5 years.
Since all NZ rules for every table game were derived from US or UK rules, I am surprised that stacked dice is valid in Vegas.

One event I saw that was NOT covered by the rules, and which I believe must be rarer than any of the above, was this:

One die ended up leaning against a dealer working stack, but not against the edge of the die. It was balanced against the CORNER of the die! This means of course that the die was also balanced on another corner of the die on the table. I knew that this would be an interesting call, since the normal rule for a die leaning against something is to decide which way the die would fall if the object being leaned against was removed. In this case it is impossible to determine which of 2 possible sides would be face up if the stack was removed. Neither the stick nor the boxman was able to make a call, so it was referred to the pit boss. Amazingly, the die remained balanced while we all waited. It was a letdown in the end. The pit boss took one look at the die, and immediately flicked it away with his pen, calling NO ROLL.

Has anyone else seen this, or know of it being covered in the rules?
If nothing will change then I am nothing.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
November 17th, 2011 at 10:22:17 AM permalink
Quote: algle


One die ended up leaning against a dealer working stack, but not against the edge of the die. It was balanced against the CORNER of the die! This means of course that the die was also balanced on another corner of the die on the table.



I'm sorry, but I am having a difficult time picturing the condition you are describing. Is the die resting on its, "edge" (where two flat surfaces meet), or is it on a, "corner", (where three flat surfaces meet)? If the edge, I have seen this twice, and calls were made both times. I have never seen a die end up on a corner. "No Roll" seems appropriate.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
algle
algle
Joined: Aug 12, 2010
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 82
November 17th, 2011 at 3:57:06 PM permalink
Quote: Ayecarumba

I'm sorry, but I am having a difficult time picturing the condition you are describing. Is the die resting on its, "edge" (where two flat surfaces meet), or is it on a, "corner", (where three flat surfaces meet)? If the edge, I have seen this twice, and calls were made both times. I have never seen a die end up on a corner. "No Roll" seems appropriate.


On a corner, where 3 surfaces meet! One corner only touching the felt, and one corner only touching the stack. The other 6 corners were all touching nothing. This is only one step away from balancing a die on one corner, as though you were going to spin it.
If nothing will change then I am nothing.
Ayecarumba
Ayecarumba
Joined: Nov 17, 2009
  • Threads: 236
  • Posts: 6763
November 17th, 2011 at 4:01:14 PM permalink
Quote: algle

On a corner, where 3 surfaces meet! One corner only touching the felt, and one corner only touching the stack. The other 6 corners were all touching nothing. This is only one step away from balancing a die on one corner, as though you were going to spin it.



Thanks for the clarification. I am sure there were some unhappy hardway bettors when the call went "No Roll".
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
  • Threads: 265
  • Posts: 14484
November 17th, 2011 at 9:21:41 PM permalink
It just shows that Vegas exports Opportunity, Mystique, Sizzle, .... but not quality. Simply because quality is not needed. Let NJ and PA write their own rules ... there is money enough to be made no matter what.
appistapp1s
appistapp1s
Joined: Nov 18, 2011
  • Threads: 1
  • Posts: 40
November 18th, 2011 at 3:41:26 PM permalink
as a 37 year veteran dice dealer i can say that i have never seen one die land on top of the other.....but i have seen so many unbelievable things that i don't doubt that it happened.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
  • Threads: 167
  • Posts: 5937
September 14th, 2022 at 2:23:18 PM permalink
How many of you have seen stacked dice after a legal throw?

How many of you have thrown dice legally that ended up stacked not just once but twice?
cowboy
cowboy
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
  • Threads: 6
  • Posts: 181
September 14th, 2022 at 4:28:04 PM permalink
I have seen neither of these in increments of 18 each, many, many times.
Joeman
Joeman
Joined: Feb 21, 2014
  • Threads: 35
  • Posts: 2372
September 15th, 2022 at 6:14:00 AM permalink
Alan, didn't we already discussed this? As I said in that thread, I have done it once at a craps table in Reno some 25+ years ago. I have not done nor seen it since.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
Joined: Jun 15, 2018
  • Threads: 101
  • Posts: 4484
September 15th, 2022 at 6:44:01 AM permalink
The bubble craps machine says it's a no roll and will auto-toss them. I've seen them stacked twice within weeks of each other. I've seen the machine error out more times than that because the dice were leaning against the edge of the bubble and a slot attendant would have to get a key to reset the dice. I'm OK with it being a no roll at a real table, and everybody wishes their numbers to show up.

  • Jump to: