Is craps dying a slow death?
Quote: ssjdraThe rush you get while rolling hot cannot be duplicated by VP/Slot machines or even other table games.
Not necessarily.
The glee of being in on a hot roll is eclipsed by the elation caused by a hand pay at your favorite slot.
Quote: MrVNot necessarily.
The glee of being in on a hot roll is eclipsed by the elation caused by a hand pay at your favorite slot.
Ain't that the truth!
There's no bet on a crap table, that with ONE HIT can turn a $1.25 investment into $1000 in a split second (ie: Royal Flush)
Quote: DeMangoWhich most casual players will not see in their lifetimes!
And why is that? I look at the hallway between the Cal and MSS and I see all these plaques where people have had monster hour plus rolls. Frequently the same person will have more than one of these in a year. I never seem to last long enough at a craps table to ever see one of these for myself.
Quote: TIMSPEEDAin't that the truth!
There's no bet on a crap table, that with ONE HIT can turn a $1.25 investment into $1000 in a split second (ie: Royal Flush)
Usually it is more than a $1.25 investment by the time you get a Royal.
I would take a hot roll over $1000 VP payout. If you bet a moderate amount you can get the same $1000, plus you make the same $1000 for the folks around you. There ain't no hero's on the VP machines! There are on the craps table. ; )
Well with 20000k as a night session, Im sure you can find someone on this site to teach you how to roll those dice. lolQuote: ljnes1Part of the issue that I have with the game is the sheer amount it takes to play it. I guess I am greedy, but I want to walk away from the table with 100k or so, you have to be willing to lose some good money if you're going to have a chance at playing at that level. With slots, I'll go blow 5-6K and it's no big deal, but sometimes I hit a 30K or like last time, 80k hit. With craps, I can see myself losing 20-30K easily in a night with no action at all, and it just flat out sucks. I don't like losing 20-30K at a chance at 100K when I can play slots and lose 5-6K and have somewhat of a chance of a decent return. I wish to god I could figure out how to roll the dice, but I just haven't been able to pull it off. At 28 years old, you think I could still learn new tricks, but rolling dice is just not my strong suit.
Craps is a bit unique in that not only do you have to have 3 croupiers plus a supervisor as boxman, but the dealers also require special training (at least at the casino I visit the most often, which is Turning Stone on the Oneida property in NY), which makes me think that casinos don't necessarily try to popularize it. Maybe that's why it seems like it's "dying off. I don't see too many craps tables even in the casino, let alone open for play.
As for age seen at the tables, I've seen a decent mix of young and old players, although I do see a "generation gap", as it were, between the two sides of the table (i.e. the younger folk will play on one side, with the older folk on the other). I don't think that's the issue.
Sometimes I will mention the game to passer-byers, and they'll say they think it's tough to understand, which is why they stay away. I do try to help them realize that if they make specific bets, it's an easy game to play. I guess it comes to some people quicker than others.
Quote: wschmrdrHi. First time poster after viewing this site for a little while.
Craps is a bit unique in that not only do you have to have 3 croupiers plus a supervisor as boxman, but the dealers also require special training (at least at the casino I visit the most often, which is Turning Stone on the Oneida property in NY), which makes me think that casinos don't necessarily try to popularize it. Maybe that's why it seems like it's "dying off. I don't see too many craps tables even in the casino, let alone open for play.
As for age seen at the tables, I've seen a decent mix of young and old players, although I do see a "generation gap", as it were, between the two sides of the table (i.e. the younger folk will play on one side, with the older folk on the other). I don't think that's the issue.
Sometimes I will mention the game to passer-byers, and they'll say they think it's tough to understand, which is why they stay away. I do try to help them realize that if they make specific bets, it's an easy game to play. I guess it comes to some people quicker than others.
Thanks for "graduating" from lurking to posting.
The dealer training isn't any more "special" than other games but it does take twice as long. Even with 3 dealers you still get 5+ per dealer at a full table so the ratio is not as out of whack as it seems at first. But making up for this craps is the only game where you can really "upsell" players to better bets for the house. Yes a BJ dealer can offer the side bet but it is probably only one side bet and there is only so much that dealer can do. In craps the stickman can bark all kinds of bets and activity breeds activity. So the money is there.
Your last point hits it on the head--it is very hard to learn. When I teach people I compare booking bets to a floor order on the NYSE. Both people, properly trained, know what the bet is. But an outsider has little clue. At a busy table a newbie hears, "hardways high six, place 5/6" sees a player throw a bunch of chips down and gets nervous. Or at a $10 table they ask for a "6" and are told to "drop me two more white" and do not know why. I've seen the later at a busy table. Friendly dealers try to help but have 7 other players to take care of. Usually another player will offer help but you get mixed results there.
One I was talking to I forget where was "complaining" the dealer "took all her chips and said 'if it lays it plays.'" I asked the story and told her nicely that the dealer should have warned her when he looked at his side but if he was busy he was under no obligation to do so. But I admit the smartass in me was thinking, "did you see anyone else with their chips sitting on the table or were they on the rail?"
Quote: AZDuffmanOne I was talking to I forget where was "complaining" the dealer "took all her chips and said 'if it lays it plays.'" I asked the story and told her nicely that the dealer should have warned her when he looked at his side but if he was busy he was under no obligation to do so. But I admit the smartass in me was thinking, "did you see anyone else with their chips sitting on the table or were they on the rail?"
Each of these two views is quite correct. Sometimes beginning players just don't realize the pace of the game is fast and they have to pick up their bets and payoffs or lose them.
Sometimes the "drop my a white" or "give me one dollar" is at a slow table and the dealer could simply explain why as well but dealers sometimes just don't like newbies.
There is no need for craps to be a dying game if the casinos teach basic strategy and encourage the players to let the rest come with time.
In the immediate post-Thorpe era some pit bosses shed tears as craps tables were removed to make room for BlackJack tables. Now the craps tables are often unmanned or even being removed so the casino can concentrate on slots. Its not progress but it will be survived.
Quote: FleaStiffSometimes the "drop my a white" or "give me one dollar" is at a slow table and the dealer could simply explain why as well but dealers sometimes just don't like newbies.
My dislike is for dealers that tell a winning newbie player to "drop a white", but the white is a bet for the dealers. They just don't tell the player that..
I've never seen that. And I would expect that if that really happened, and the gambler complained to a pit boss, that the dealer would be encouraged to find work elsewhere.Quote: konceptumMy dislike is for dealers that tell a winning newbie player to "drop a white", but the white is a bet for the dealers. They just don't tell the player that..
| baccarat | +10.58% |
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Quote: konceptumMy dislike is for dealers that tell a winning newbie player to "drop a white", but the white is a bet for the dealers. They just don't tell the player that..
No, it isn't, not at all.
It is to pay a $14 payout (such as from a $10 Place bet on the Five) with three $5 chips instead of two $5 chips and FOUR white chips, when the player already has an excessive amount/unbalance of white chips; it is to "color up" a winning player into a higher demonination during play. We do this to make the game's bank and layout handling more managable. Even a newbie can see this. I've been dealing dice for years.
Also, When a player has too many red ($5) chips, you also hear a dealer say: "drop me $11, I'll give you a Quarter" (a green $25 chip), - to move the player from Red chips up to Green chips. The $25 chip minus the $11 dropped is the player's same $14 payout.
Furthermore, you can just look at the layout and SEE if the dealer steals and locks it up as a tip bet, or takes it off the game for a hand-in tip, and you can bitch about him to get him written up if you want. A "hustling" dealer would just ask a player for a tip by saying, "Great for your win! Can ya put us boys up on the pass line with you? You're rolling hot!" He'd be open about it, and with an "I'm on your side" attitude.
And even if the dealer did this, it would be in front of other players, other dealers, the boxman, the floorman, surveillance, etc., and would risk a write up or a termination for a DOLLAR chip. Stealing chips for tips doesn't happen, though I have seen some requests in the fashion above happen on hot tables. We more often see a lot of players make bogus claims on a busy game, take other people's hand-off winning payouts, pluck chips for other players, try to "call" a bad roll as a winning roll over the dealer and boxman(!) - you name it - on a routine basis. Dealing dice is NOT like dealing Pai Gow.
The dealer who even worries about tips, steals tips, or rudely demands for tips just alienates the tippers, reduces his tip income and that of his fellow dealers, catches flak, and risks his job, so he would be giving himself the punishment he deserves. Few dealers are this stupid to steal a dollar, most are professional and try to have a pleasant time with the better players on a game, though we dice dealers all are routinely painted as greedy greaseballs. Surveillance crews - who watch the games as auditors - nail players 9-to-1 over company dealers trying to "take shots" on a game.
Quote: konceptumMy dislike is for dealers that tell a winning newbie player to "drop a white", but the white is a bet for the dealers. They just don't tell the player that..
Where I go to play, that "drop a white" is most definitely not "for the dealers", even if you mean their convenience. I usually only hear that suggestion if the bet pays 7 to 6 (place 6/8) or 3 to 2 (odds on 5/9). Consequently, the dealer will return the white if the bet pays x to 5 (place 4/5/9/10, or odds on 6/8). If they happen to be standing near me, I would explain to them how it pays, should it be a busy table.
Even though I already replied to this, as did Dan, the more I thnk about it, the more I think that you're mistaken.Quote: konceptumMy dislike is for dealers that tell a winning newbie player to "drop a white", but the white is a bet for the dealers. They just don't tell the player that..
The next time that happens, REALLY check to see what happened. More often than not, as Dan said, it's to avoid giving more white chips to a player that already has a ton of them. When it happens, watch what happens to the white chip the player dropped. It ends up on the dealer's working stacks.
Often, you can even see players tossing down the white chip before being asked.
In fact, that's one of the most pleasureable things I get out of craps. If I've worked my 6/8 place bets up to $42, or my 5/9 up yo $35, and it hits, there's just something damn sexy about trading a white for two greens. Of course, not nearly as sexy as working the bets up to $84 and $70, then dropping two whites to get one black!
Typical example is someone who has $6 on a place-8 bet. Player wins a few bets. At this point, the dealer will usually recommend that the player press their bet up to $12, to win more money. Player does so. Player wins a couple of bets. At some point, they will push the player 3 red chips, and ask for 1 white chip in change. Player does so. They usually will do this a couple of times. Then, they will push the player 2 red chips and 4 white chips, and then tell the player to drop back a white chip. Player will usually do this out of habit at this point, especially if a novice player. That white chip becomes a dealer tip. The dealers will usually keep track of how many white chips the player has, and make sure they always have enough to affect this "tip".
A small minority of the dealers will say something like, "Drop an extra white chip for the boys." This is great and all, except that for the novice player, they may not really understand what "for the boys" means. But clearly, the dealers are taking advantage of the fact that in the excitement of playing and winning, the novice player will not be adverse to dropping an extra chip.
As I've said, the pit bosses are aware of this going on, and turn a blind eye to it. I do not know if anybody has ever complained about it, mainly because, again, they are taking advantage of novice players who are winning, and thus less likely to notice that a small percentage of their chips are being used as tips without them knowing about it. These same novices may have willingly payed a tip for the dealers, but my problem is that they are not being told that this is what is being done with the extra white chip being thrown down.
If the dealers aren't asking anybody for tips, in this manner, the pit boss, at a winning table, will usually say something like, "Let's get some bets out there for the boys," hoping to illicit more tips from players.
With experienced players, the dealers will usually just make a comment to the player, similar to, "How about a bet for the boys?" I've only seen them ask that ONCE of experienced players who don't tip, and then leave them alone after that. If the player does tip, then the dealers will ask it anytime the table is going well for that player.
When I was a novice playing at this casino, this happened to me. Not being entirely aware of how much of a payout is required for each bet, I was asked to throw down white chips, and did so. It took a while before I realized that the white chip was not to my benefit. Now, being more experienced, when I would see it happen to other players, it was clear what was going on. Having the knowledge of knowing where bets are placed, it makes it even more obvious.
I've never said anything to casino management about my experiences, or having seen it done to other players. This is probably due to the fact that since I've seen the pit bosses accept this behavior, that it is obviously acceptable to the casino for the dealers to be doing this.
Caveat: I haven't gambled at this particular casino in pretty close to a year. I don't know if things have changed there or not. I will be making my next trip to Las Vegas at the end of June. If people like, I can stop by this particular casino again and see if they are still operating the same way. I honestly don't know if I can fit it in to my trip plans, but I can try.
I will also state that this is the only casino that I've played where the craps dealers can choose whether or not to keep their tip bets active on the table. I'm sure I'm not using the correct terminology on this. Typical casino example is that, let's say you put down a $1 bet on a hard-10 for the boys. Hard-10 gets rolled. Dealers will get paid, and the $1 bet comes down. I've seen things done this way in almost every other casino I've been in. In fact, I was told once that I should play the $1 tip on my own bet, and then pay the boys the amount the $1 would have won. That way, the $1 tip stays live on my bet, instead of coming down, and then me having to put up another $1 bet for the boys. (I hope this makes sense to everybody. If not, I'll try to re-clarify it.)
However, at this particular casino, the dealers will usually discuss amongst themselves whether or not they want the $1 to come down after winning, or even to parlay their winnings into another bet. So you put $1 bet on hard-10, and hard-10 gets rolled. The dealers decide to parlay, so instead of taking their winnings and the bet down, they now have a $8 bet on hard-10. (I'm not checking the math, but you know what I mean.) If it hits again at this point, I've seen them press the bet to a $15 bet on hard-10, and keep the extra. I've never seen any other casino allow the dealers to do this.
OK. We get it. You know what you were seeing and it really was a hustle.
For the record, I don't think there is any reason to keep the casino's name a secret. Until your last paragraph, I had assumed that it was some casino in the middle of nowhere, that nobody except locals would ever go to.
It's a Vegas casino? C'mon. You gotta name it...
For example, when a newbie places a bet on the line after the point has been established, the dealer should automatically ask the player to move it to the point to get the place odds and explain the reasoning. The big six and big eight bets should be rejected if the bet is $6 or more (place it instead). The dealers should ask the player to buy a 4 and 10 when the place bet exceeds $20. The dealers should be asking players to back up their come bets and pass bets with odds and to put even money on the 5 and 9. That kind of dealer behaviour is what I look for at a craps table. If I don't see that behaviour, I don't tip or I walk to a better table.
I don't mind the dealers shilling for the sucker bets in the center.
I walked from Let it Ride a couple of nights ago because the dealer refused to let me help a player who clearly did not know how to play (he was staying on a flush when the first card didn't match the flush, he didn't stay when he matched an A in his hand). She was very rude about it. I walked away and exclaimed, "help the guy out, for crying out loud". She purposefully mispaid the player on a 3 of a kind. Disgusting.
Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah, we know what you mean.Quote: konceptumI will also state that this is the only casino that I've played where the craps dealers can choose whether or not to keep their tip bets active on the table. I'm sure I'm not using the correct terminology on this. Typical casino example is that, let's say you put down a $1 bet on a hard-10 for the boys. Hard-10 gets rolled. Dealers will get paid, and the $1 bet comes down. I've seen things done this way in almost every other casino I've been in. In fact, I was told once that I should play the $1 tip on my own bet, and then pay the boys the amount the $1 would have won. That way, the $1 tip stays live on my bet, instead of coming down, and then me having to put up another $1 bet for the boys. (I hope this makes sense to everybody. If not, I'll try to re-clarify it.)
It also makes sense that this casino is in Vegas. Im most jurisdictions, casino personell are not allowed to gamble in their own casino. Only in Vegas would they not only allow it, but allow the dealers to make parlay decisions on tip bets!
By the way, the term for what you're doing, i.e. putting the tip bet on top of your own, is called "Player control." I've also heard it called "Piggyback." The wierd thing is, and I doubt that this is true, that the "Piggyback" term evolved in jurisdictions where "Player control" was not allowed. In those jurisdictions, the bet is paid as one combined payout, but the player returns the tip winnings to the dealers.
The casino I've referring to is not in Las Vegas.
Quote: konceptumPlayer control. Yes. I had forgotten that term. Man, it's really been a while since I've gambled. Sheesh.
The casino I've referring to is not in Las Vegas.
Why on earth won't you mention the name of the casino?
I don't feel it is criminal (and neither do most boxmen) if, during a hot session, a dealer discreetly and politely requests $1 and states that it's "for the boys," whating for an okay by the player. That's okay. The novice player learns that an occasional tip is a fine practice, and he would not have otherwise known. So as long as the player is up, and the action is announced for the player to approve it, and it's modest, say a dollar, it's okay. The first time my father took me to a fancy, sit-down restaurant and left money on the table, I asked "Dad, what is that for?" EVERYBODY was once a novice in everything.
However, what's never okay is to:
1. keep a winning bet up without the player throwing in a brand new toke bet. This "replay the toke bet action" constitutes a dealer directly putting a "down tip" back into action for some on-the-job gambling.
2. to ever skim from a player's full winning payout for a hand-in tip or toke bet, announced or not.
There's no harm in outing a casino committing abuses; if they've stopped, then they've stopped. If they hadn't, you've done something. Find out, if possible.
By all means, Contact the Gaming Control Board jurisdiction in your area with this stuff, especially if you want to see abuses stopped if they hadn't.
Quote: PaigowdanI don't feel it is criminal (and neither do most boxmen) if, during a hot session, a dealer discreetly and politely requests $1 and states that it's "for the boys," whating for an okay by the player. That's okay. The novice player learns that an occasional tip is a fine practice, and he would not have otherwise known. So as long as the player is up, and the action is announced for the player to approve it, and it's modest, say a dollar, it's okay. The first time my father took me to a fancy, sit-down restaurant and left money on the table, I asked "Dad, what is that for?" EVERYBODY was once a novice in everything.
I agree with this.
Quote: Paigowdan
However, what's never okay is to:
1. keep a winning bet up without the player throwing in a brand new toke bet. This "replay the toke bet action" constitutes a dealer directly putting a "down tip" back into action for some on-the-job gambling.
Is this something that is specifically listed in Gaming Control for the state of Nevada? Another similar idea would be, when leaving a table, I've been known to throw the dealers a few bucks, if I've been up. (Usually, whatever white chips I might have remaining.) I don't usually say anything, just toss the chips, and wave my hand. The majority of the time, the dealers will take the white chips and decide amongst themselves what bets to put them down on, usually something in the center of the table. Since I didn't specifically state that the money was to be used for betting purposes, wouldn't this qualify as being on-the-job gambling as well? Separately, if during the play of the game, I toss the dealer a white chip and tell them to bet where they like, and they choose a bet for themselves, doesn't that count as on-the-job gambling? This would be different from me tossing a white chip and telling them to put it on snake eyes for the boys.
Quote: Paigowdan
2. to ever skim from a player's full winning payout for a hand-in tip or toke bet, announced or not.
Agreed here as well, but to me this specifically means short-paying a player and utilizing the skimmed money as a dealer bet. Remember that my example was that the player was paid the full and correct amount, and then asked to throw in a white chip. They just aren't told what the white chip is for.
Quote: Paigowdan
There's no harm in outing a casino committing abuses; if they've stopped, then they've stopped. If they hadn't, you've done something. Find out, if possible.
By all means, Contact the Gaming Control Board jurisdiction in your area with this stuff, especially if you want to see abuses stopped if they hadn't.
What troubles me is that, as I've mentioned, this was all done in full view of pit bosses and with their consent. It strikes me as difficult to believe that a well known and fairly major casino would risk being shut down by Gaming Control for something so blatantly obvious, at least to knowledgeable players of the game. And this casino does attract knowledgeable players.
Quote:Quote 1
At the Riverside in Laughlin, the dealers hustle you for tips all of the time. They have finally left me alone, though--for the most part. The problem I have is that sometimes the players don't know they are betting for the dealers, and they automatically put themselves back up after prop wins
Quote:Quote 2
Riverside Casino Laughlin, NV dealers are pushed to hustle tokes and coincidently they make the most money of any other casino in Laughlin
Quote:Quote 3
Best served, being a craps dealer in laughlin... would you be familiar with the crew at riverside casino? I am a frequent visitor to laughlin, mostly to shoot dice around the area and i try to avoid shooting dice there. I am a good tipper, i also do small tokes even if losing, but i cant stand being hustle for tokes while i am playing. If you are ahead a few bets, expect them to beg and sometimes help themselfs to your money. I saw them do this to an old lady while the pit boss just sit there. Really strange, i never come across an crew like that. Not sure if this is still there policy, as i had not stop there for at least a year now.
Somewhere in my past years, I had heard the rumors that Riverside dealers split their tips with the managers, ie, pit bosses.
Quote:Las Vegas Sun Article
During last year’s testimony on the case, a manager at Don Laughlin’s Riverside Resort testified that dealers at the Laughlin casino had been sharing tips with their supervisors for years.
But this would explain why the pit bosses are willing to turn a blind eye to the dealers being so active in soliciting tips from the players.
The three quotes came from websites I wouldn't normally peruse, but they showed up in my search. The first quote doesn't have a time stamp, the second one shows May of 2010, and the third one shows November of 2008. The Las Vegas Sun article is from July of 2010. So clearly, this issue of actively soliciting tips and doing some of the other things I've seen has been going on up to at least around this time last year, and may still be going on.
Quote: konceptum
(1. keep a winning bet up without the player throwing in a brand new toke bet after it hits.) This "replay the toke bet action" constitutes a dealer directly putting a "down tip" back into action for some on-the-job gambling. - Is this something that is specifically listed in Gaming Control for the state of Nevada?
Yes, as far as I know and had been told. A violation of gaming rules.
Quote: konceptumAnother similar idea would be, when leaving a table, I've been known to throw the dealers a few bucks, if I've been up. (Usually, whatever white chips I might have remaining.) I don't usually say anything, just toss the chips, and wave my hand. The majority of the time, the dealers will take the white chips and decide amongst themselves what bets to put them down on, usually something in the center of the table. Since I didn't specifically state that the money was to be used for betting purposes, wouldn't this qualify as being on-the-job gambling as well? Separately, if during the play of the game, I toss the dealer a white chip and tell them to bet where they like, and they choose a bet for themselves, doesn't that count as on-the-job gambling? This would be different from me tossing a white chip and telling them to put it on snake eyes for the boys.
No, this is not a problem. If it was player's money - given by player - and dealers were told them to bet it as they see fit, it is all right, no different than telling then it is their "Hard-8". What is not all right is to bet or rebet money that is supposed to be "dropped," or put in the tip box.
Quote: konceptumWhat troubles me is that, as I've mentioned, this was all done in full view of pit bosses and with their consent. It strikes me as difficult to believe that a well known and fairly major casino would risk being shut down by Gaming Control for something so blatantly obvious, at least to knowledgeable players of the game. And this casino does attract knowledgeable players.
Casinos are big and there may be bad apples or bad "pocket areas" here and there at any casino. It happens. Some are dirtier than others [Riverside, etc.], utterly shameless hustling. Gaming cannot be on every game at every time, or at every business meeting in the gaming industry. If minor incidences and things are reported to Gaming, Gaming wouldn't shut down a casino, short of being ghost-operated by the Medellin Cartel, though they may read the riot act. A Major Hospital wouldn't be shut down because some nurse or a pharmacist stole some drugs. They'd fine a casino, and give directives to really clean things up, with some getting fired. I've seen dealers and floormen being walked off the floor and out of the casino. Not often, thankfully.
If you can find anecdotes about casino problems on the Internet, you can also find the Gaming Control Board's "Contact us" page.
Quote: PaigowdanNo, this is not a problem. If it was player's money - given by player - and dealers were told them to bet it as they see fit, it is all right, no different than telling then it is their "Hard-8". What is not all right is to bet or rebet money that is supposed to be "dropped," or put in the tip box.
But my example is throwing the chips on the table, and not making any comments. Without a comment by me, how are the dealers to know if I want them to bet that money, or that it is simply a tip? Another thing I habitually do is toss some chips towards the dealers and state "do what you want with it". Since I'm not explicitly telling them they can bet it, does this still mean that they can?
Except that I have no desire to contact the Gaming Control Board. The only ones who might, are those who have been "ripped off" by the craps dealers and pit boss, but they have no idea it's happening and they were winning, so they probably don't care.Quote: PaigowdanIf you can find anecdotes about casino problems on the Internet, you can also find the Gaming Control Board's "Contact us" page.
Quote: PaigowdanInteresting. Dealer tokes cannot be parlayed by the dealers, unless it is "player controlled," as that consititutes "dealers' gambling while on the job," a huge no-no.
Not in all casinos. I often use a two-way yo while hedging, and at the "old" Trump Marina, it came in. I took my winnings, but the boxman and crew decided to parlay and racked up a nice win.
Quote: PaigowdanHowever, what's never okay is to:
1. keep a winning bet up without the player throwing in a brand new toke bet. This "replay the toke bet action" constitutes a dealer directly putting a "down tip" back into action for some on-the-job gambling.
I went to so many different casinos last year that I can't remember whether this incident occurred in Nevada or outside.
I was playing craps from beside the base dealer. I was following my usual practice of betting $1 on the pass line for the dealers while I was the shooter and adding a couple of dollars as odds when I set a point. I hit several points in a row, and the young lady at the base position paid and collected the dealer winnings and the odds bet each time, but she very openly declared that she would leave the $1 in play on the pass line. That saved me a dollar (at the dealers' expense) on each come out roll, but it basically assured the dealers that I would not forget to keep them in the game and would keep adding the odds bets. I think everyone was comfortable with that.
Was that really improper behavior by the base dealer? Perhaps I should note that there have been times that I would forget to put the dollar on the pass line and realize it late. Then I would comment to the dealer to remind me any time I was shooting and failed to have them on the line with me. Yes, I actually have asked a dealer to ask for a toke wager! It's a toke I would make anyway if I remembered, and anytime I spend much money that way, it means I have been having a very good roll, so I never have reason to be disappointed.
Quote: FleaStiffEach of these two views is quite correct. Sometimes beginning players just don't realize the pace of the game is fast and they have to pick up their bets and payoffs or lose them.
Sometimes the "drop my a white" or "give me one dollar" is at a slow table and the dealer could simply explain why as well but dealers sometimes just don't like newbies.
There is no need for craps to be a dying game if the casinos teach basic strategy and encourage the players to let the rest come with time.
In the immediate post-Thorpe era some pit bosses shed tears as craps tables were removed to make room for BlackJack tables. Now the craps tables are often unmanned or even being removed so the casino can concentrate on slots. Its not progress but it will be survived.
For some reason, in craps knowlege breeds arrogance about the game. Almost like a hazing. You get the desire to tell a person being even a little bit of a jerk how it works so no human could get it. (Channeling Foghorn Leghorn/Sen Claghorn) "Well-when-the-puck-is-off-a-7-or-11-is-good-and-a-2-3-or-12-is-bad-unless-you-bet-the-dont-then-it-is-the-oppisite-except-for-the-12. You getting this? Look at me when I talk to you boy, now............" and the player looks for a $.25 Double Diamond machine.
Here in PA craps seems to be growing at least a little. But it is clearly "your dad's game" to those who do not remember the USSR.
Quote: DocQuote: PaigowdanHowever, what's never okay is to:
1. keep a winning bet up without the player throwing in a brand new toke bet. This "replay the toke bet action" constitutes a dealer directly putting a "down tip" back into action for some on-the-job gambling.
I went to so many different casinos last year that I can't remember whether this incident occurred in Nevada or outside.
I was playing craps from beside the base dealer. I was following my usual practice of betting $1 on the pass line for the dealers while I was the shooter and adding a couple of dollars as odds when I set a point. I hit several points in a row, and the young lady at the base position paid and collected the dealer winnings and the odds bet each time, but she very openly declared that she would leave the $1 in play on the pass line. That saved me a dollar (at the dealers' expense) on each come out roll, but it basically assured the dealers that I would not forget to keep them in the game and would keep adding the odds bets. I think everyone was comfortable with that.
Was that really improper behavior by the base dealer? Perhaps I should note that there have been times that I would forget to put the dollar on the pass line and realize it late. Then I would comment to the dealer to remind me any time I was shooting and failed to have them on the line with me. Yes, I actually have asked a dealer to ask for a toke wager! It's a toke I would make anyway if I remembered, and anytime I spend much money that way, it means I have been having a very good roll, so I never have reason to be disappointed.
At the casino I frequent, the dealer must collect the entire bet, and it is down. Once, the dealer forgot to pick up the original pass line bet I made for them (although picked up the profit and all odds). Thankfully for them, I ended up hitting a second point. However, I don't think there are too many casinos where the dealers are allowed to let the original bet ride, even if the tipper says to do so.
Baccarat is slowly inching back down to their pre-recession revenue numbers. For the last 12 months statewide revenue is $1.1 billion, vs $970 million for the 12 months ending October 2007 (the pre-recession peak).
Slightly unusual is the Strip did worse than the county and the state as a whole. The net drop for the month is $10million for the strip. My guess is you are still seeing dropping numbers at the Venetian/Palazzo which are being partially made up by numbers at the Wynn/Encore.
At 55 percent taxation rates, why should the casinos push slot machines, they might as well advertise and teach craps.Quote: AZDuffmanHere in PA craps seems to be growing at least a little. But it is clearly "your dad's game" to those who do not remember the USSR.
I was at one craps game and this old guy was handing out business cards for his craps-coach program. I nearly burst out laughing but I figured I'd just politely put his card in my pocket. The dice crew seemed to think he was harmless. Sure was strange though. Youngsters do play craps these days, but most casino patrons do seem to be getting on in years if they play slots and about equally divided at the craps table.
Quote: FleaStiffAt 55 percent taxation rates, why should the casinos push slot machines, they might as well advertise and teach craps.
I was at one craps game and this old guy was handing out business cards for his craps-coach program. I nearly burst out laughing but I figured I'd just politely put his card in my pocket. The dice crew seemed to think he was harmless. Sure was strange though. Youngsters do play craps these days, but most casino patrons do seem to be getting on in years if they play slots and about equally divided at the craps table.
Slots seems to have an age gap among players. You turn 21 and hit slot machines being afraid of table games. You turn 30 and realize the money-sink slots are and learn one to a few table games. You turn 60 and head back to the slots. Slots also seem to attract "passengers." IOW, people who are happier letting someone else drive and would rather check out the scenery. For table games (except say casino war and the like) you need a "driver" mentality. IOW, the person who wants to say they drove; they found the best route; they made the best time, etc.
Craps is a "super driver" game. It is for the person who while driving on a tip wonders how many gallons of paint per mile of centerline; how big of a parking lot could be made if all paved roads in the USA were in one spot; how many minutes of extra/less sunlight you get per 100 miles north/south.
I rarely find anyone other than the crew who knows all the bets at the table. Kind of why I like it, you are part of a secret-society. And that makes people hate it.
Quote: AZDuffmanI rarely find anyone other than the crew who knows all the bets at the table. Kind of why I like it, you are part of a secret-society. And that makes people hate it.
Slots are for non-haters
Dice players have culture
I am trying to decide Paco if you quoting Paris is a new high or a new low for this forum (;
Quote: kenarmanI am trying to decide Paco if you quoting Paris is a new high or a new low for this forum (;
I was hoping to get something about "haters" to match the previous statement, plus a good contrast with the high culture of playing craps.
Culture? Mickey Spillane got it right: America has always sold far more salted peanuts than caviar. Craps? Culture? Heck, some craps players are such degenerate bums that the waitresses have to be careful because that plastic cup on the drink ledge may not be full of beer! Yet, when some young Internet millionaires were meeting in Vegas they held a very productive conference break-out session at Bally's 5.00 craps table! Craps culture? I don't know. Are those who believe in dice setting capable of being termed cultured? Is someone who says chicken dinner several hundred times a day properly referred to as being cultured? Is it cultured to say "stick" when a guy is wearing a name tag? Is it cultured for him to want you to use his name rather than stick? Is the person with the most chips the one who is the most cultured? Or is it the degenerate shot taker the one who is the most cultured?Quote: pacomartinthe high culture of playing craps.
Quote: pacomartinI was hoping to get something about "haters" to match the previous statement, plus a good contrast with the high culture of playing craps.
Who the heck wants "high culture?" I want to be able to tell "stick chick" about giving her some hardway action without getting my face slapped. (Or telling same to stickman without picking mhy teeth up off the floor after.) I want to hear a bunch of babble about bets being placed ("$5 yo, on the hook!) that no outsider knows much less cares about. I want the look the "smart" guy's chick gives to me when I explain to him about a DP bet and how I can pick it up but he cannot pick up his pass and he looks amazed, but I know HE told HER just minutes ago "Watch me, honey, I know everything about this game." And I like his deer-in-the-headlights look at me because HE asked ME about that DP Line and I was otherwise minding my own business.
Then I like his look when I switch back to Pass. I love my feeling that he is amazed but I know mathematically it does not matter.
I like the snickering at the player who only bets Field by the plyers who know Field should only be used as part of an "Iron Cross" bet if even then. I like that when I explain my "Modified Iron Cross" bet the person sometimes looks at me as if I am a genius when I know it is only a winner in long rolls. I like that all real craps players look at the Big Six Wheel and consider it a tour bus for those who think Wal-Mart is the best store on earth.
Culture? Go to the opera if you want it. I'd trade all the "high culture" in the world for a roll of 50 before the point or 7.
Quote: FleaStiff... a very productive conference break-out session at Bally's 5.00 craps table! ...
Recently? I just spent a week at Bally's and never saw the table minimum go below $10. Not late at night, early morning, weekday afternoon, at no time even when I was just passing through the casino floor. I did play at $5 tables at Bill's, Excalibur, Gold Coast, and Golden Nugget, and Croupier and I played a little while at a $1 table at the Hacienda when we went out to visit the dam. But I haven't found a $5 crap table at Bally's recently.
I also played at a number of $10 tables at Bally's, Encore, and elsewhere. I should note that every casino I visited this past week had a $10 (or lower) table operating except one. I was in the Cosmopolitan Las Vegas on a Friday night, and their crap tables were a mix of $25 minimum and $100 minimum, though I have previously played there during the daytime for $10. I thought a $100 minimum for craps was pretty steep for tables that they weren't trying to make private, but at least one $100 table was getting fairly heavy use. I chose not to play at those rates. I also noted a reserved table at Encore where the lone player was wagering stacks of what I believe were $1,000 chips. They were probably yellow, but they looked almost white (the $1 chips there have a blue rim.) I didn't wander close enough to read the faces of the chips he was playing -- didn't seem like a good idea.
No, 'bout five years ago.Quote: DocRecently?
>Hacienda
What were the odds there? Jokers Wild in Hendertucky is 10x.
I took the $1 game as just being something for minor amusement, which is what Croupier and I were playing it for, plus for his souvenir chip opportunity. His wife was playing $2 blackjack at the time. (I think they used metal tokens as $1 chips at the blackjack tables.) Come to think of it, we all three came out ahead at the Hacienda, and I won the same amount that I lost at poker at WoVCon, so maybe there was more than just minor amusement!
