LawDawg
Joined: Mar 9, 2011
• Posts: 7
March 9th, 2011 at 9:19:36 AM permalink
Great site & especially love the Wizard of Odds site - I use the basics to impress my friends with my knowledge of probability & refer them to it when they ask me questions too hard for me to answer.

I've recently started playing craps. I bet pass line with full odds, and once the point is set, I bet the come with full odds when that new point is set & continue doing this until I crap out. (The tax professor who taught me craps calls this "turbo craps")

The question I have is this: Ordinarily, after an original pass line point is made, the odds on my come bets are not "working" until a new point is established. However, I can tell the dealer that I want my odds "working."

My assumption is that since the casino default is that the odds are not working, it's to my advantage to have them working.

Is that correct? Does it matter how many come bets I have up at the time?

odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 8806
March 9th, 2011 at 9:25:54 AM permalink
The Wizard's advice is to have them working.

Personally, since dealers are constantly changing, I dislike having to tell each and every one of them each time I want them working. Perhaps if there isn't a lot of noise etc at the table it might be more practical.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
goatcabin
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
• Posts: 665
March 9th, 2011 at 9:58:16 AM permalink
Quote: LawDawg

Great site & especially love the Wizard of Odds site - I use the basics to impress my friends with my knowledge of probability & refer them to it when they ask me questions too hard for me to answer.

I've recently started playing craps. I bet pass line with full odds, and once the point is set, I bet the come with full odds when that new point is set & continue doing this until I crap out.

I assume you mean "seven out". "Crap out" means to lose on the comeout roll by rolling 2, 3 or 12. "Seven out" is when you establish a point on the comeout roll and then roll a seven before your point. When you seven out, you lose any come bets that have gone to a point number, but win a bet still in the come area. "Seven out, line away, pay the don't and the last come."

Quote: LawDawg

The question I have is this: Ordinarily, after an original pass line point is made, the odds on my come bets are not "working" until a new point is established. However, I can tell the dealer that I want my odds "working."

My assumption is that since the casino default is that the odds are not working, it's to my advantage to have them working.

Is that correct? Does it matter how many come bets I have up at the time?

Since the odds have a zero expectation, there is no mathematical reason to have them not working - or working, for that matter. OTOH, you might reason that, if the come odds are a good bet any time, they are a good bet on the pass comeout, as well. OTOOH, if you are "rooting" for the seven on the pass comeout, you are also rooting against your come odds of they are working. OTOOOH, if you believe in DI, the shooter is probably using an "all-sevens" set on the pass comeout.

I avoid come bets for two reasons: 1) I'd rather put my money on pass odds, which have zero expectation than on come, with negative expectation AND 2) I don't like the "mixed feelings" of the pass comeout roll if I have come bets outstanding.

Reason 1 does not apply to you if you are already taking max odds on the pass. Once you reach max odds, the only way to win more is to increase your expected loss.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA
Cheers, Alan Shank "How's that for a squabble, Pugh?" Peter Boyle as Mister Moon in "Yellowbeard"
LawDawg
Joined: Mar 9, 2011
• Posts: 7
March 9th, 2011 at 11:09:59 AM permalink
Quote: goatcabin

I assume you mean "seven out". "Crap out" means to lose on the comeout roll by rolling 2, 3 or 12. "Seven out" is when you establish a point on the comeout roll and then roll a seven before your point. When you seven out, you lose any come bets that have gone to a point number, but win a bet still in the come area. "Seven out, line away, pay the don't and the last come."

Yes, thanks for that - still new enough to not have all of the lingo down.

And thanks for your explanation - makes perfect sense to me.

I was thinking that if I had come bets up on 2 numbers (say 5 & 6) there are more chances at winning that bet than losing on one bet, but the same would not be true if I had only one bet up (anything without a bet being neutral).

And I often feel the same way you describe in #2 (the times I feel kinda smart when the come out roll pays out on my come odds bet are often outweighed by the times I feel stupid when all my come odds bets are lost with a come out 7.)
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
• Posts: 14484
March 9th, 2011 at 11:23:03 AM permalink
Part of the reason that your odds would be automatically 'off' on a comeout roll is that this saves the dealer having to take them down and put them back up again. I keep mine working.

The trouble with your aggressive style of play is that you can get every point number covered and suddenly hear Seven Out ... happened to me and I still blame the dealer for it because she "caused" it by saying 'you are all over the place'.
LawDawg
Joined: Mar 9, 2011
• Posts: 7
March 9th, 2011 at 11:29:27 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Part of the reason that your odds would be automatically 'off' on a comeout roll is that this saves the dealer having to take them down and put them back up again. I keep mine working.

I'm not sure what that means? When I'm working, the dealer puts a little plastic chip on one of my bets that says "on."

I agree - it sucks to lose when I have every number covered - especially if they haven't paid anything out before it happens. But I like the faster pace of the action.

goatcabin
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
• Posts: 665
March 9th, 2011 at 11:57:31 AM permalink
Quote: LawDawg

I was thinking that if I had come bets up on 2 numbers (say 5 & 6) there are more chances at winning that bet than losing on one bet, but the same would not be true if I had only one bet up (anything without a bet being neutral).

There are more ways to win ONE of those bets than to lose BOTH.

More come bet terminology:

If you have a come 6, say and another come bet (in the come area) and the six is rolled, the dealer will just pay you and say, "You're off and on"; or, if you have an odds bets, (s)he'll pay you the flat and the odds payoff and say "You're off and on with odds". This is on the assumption that you're going to make another come bet and avoids moving cheques around pointlessly. If you don't want to make another come bet, just pick up your checque(s) from the come area, before the dice are out.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA
Cheers, Alan Shank "How's that for a squabble, Pugh?" Peter Boyle as Mister Moon in "Yellowbeard"
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
• Posts: 10670
March 9th, 2011 at 12:23:40 PM permalink
Quote: LawDawg

Quote: FleaStiff

Part of the reason that your odds would be automatically 'off' on a comeout roll is that this saves the dealer having to take them down and put them back up again. I keep mine working.

I'm not sure what that means? When I'm working, the dealer puts a little plastic chip on one of my bets that says "on."

Actually, that's why the puck says "On" and "Off", and why there are those little chips to indicate the opposite.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/  Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
• Posts: 2501
March 10th, 2011 at 3:18:48 PM permalink
I only come bet sporadically, but the last 4 or 5 times I have played craps I have made it a point to always have my odds working on come out rolls. I did this when I noticed I kept having my come bets get knocked off by the new point being my come bet. (At least it felt like that was happening more often than not.)
The last trip I only had come bets up 3x, and I lost 2 of them to 7 winners, and the other one was my point, so I got paid my odds. That was the first time I had been on the losing end though. All of the other sessions, I had gotten paid my odds more often than I lost the odds, so working the odds on the come out roll has been a good thing for me, so far.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
HotBlonde
Joined: Feb 8, 2011
• Posts: 1694
March 10th, 2011 at 5:32:30 PM permalink
Quote: LawDawg

I've recently started playing craps. I bet pass line with full odds, and once the point is set, I bet the come with full odds when that new point is set & continue doing this until I crap out. (The tax professor who taught me craps calls this "turbo craps")

I just started playing craps, my first time actually on my last Vegas trip. I play just as you do, betting on the passline and then every come bet before each roll. If I just make a passline bet and that's it I find it pretty boring just standing around waiting. The thing is that the way you and I play is fun but our bankrolls can go up and down pretty quickly.

Quote: LawDawg

My assumption is that since the casino default is that the odds are not working, it's to my advantage to have them working.

Is that correct? Does it matter how many come bets I have up at the time?

You are correct. This is what The Wizard has written on this: "Turning the come odds off on a come out roll increases the combined house edge from 0.326% to 0.377% in a 5-times odds game, not counting returned odds bets as bets made. So if you want to maximize your return on resolved bets then keep those come odds turned on."

And here is the link to it:
WizardofOdds.com/Craps
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