odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 8444
April 25th, 2011 at 10:27:09 AM permalink
Quote: kp

Likewise, always placing a field bet when you bet the hardways will lower the house edge.

certainly not! but perhaps the variance
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
goatcabin
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
• Posts: 664
April 25th, 2011 at 11:26:08 AM permalink
Quote: kp

Likewise, always placing a field bet when you bet the hardways will lower the house edge.

A good example of what I'm talking about - if you combine a hardway and a field bet, you do lower the combined house edge, since a field bet has a lower edge than a hardway, but you ADD to your expected loss, not subtract from it.

Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, Ca
Cheers, Alan Shank "How's that for a squabble, Pugh?" Peter Boyle as Mister Moon in "Yellowbeard"
vert1276
Joined: Apr 25, 2011
• Posts: 446
April 29th, 2011 at 2:12:07 PM permalink
Quote: LawDawg

Great site & especially love the Wizard of Odds site - I use the basics to impress my friends with my knowledge of probability & refer them to it when they ask me questions too hard for me to answer.

I've recently started playing craps. I bet pass line with full odds, and once the point is set, I bet the come with full odds when that new point is set & continue doing this until I crap out. (The tax professor who taught me craps calls this "turbo craps")

The question I have is this: Ordinarily, after an original pass line point is made, the odds on my come bets are not "working" until a new point is established. However, I can tell the dealer that I want my odds "working."

My assumption is that since the casino default is that the odds are not working, it's to my advantage to have them working.

Is that correct? Does it matter how many come bets I have up at the time?

Well IMO its just a matter of how large your bankroll is. The house advantage on your come bet once placed on a point or a "put bet" is not going to ever change whether or not your odds are working. Lets assume you have a \$5 come bet that moves to the 10 and you place 10X's odds on it (\$50) then your pass line point is made. And you are now on a new come out roll. What you need to ask yourself is.......Do I want to risk \$5 at a 33.33% house edge or \$55 dollars at a 3.03% house edge?

Off topic: I used to pay with a guy at a casino that had 10x odds, and he would play what I like to call "super turbo craps" LOL It was a \$1 table. He would place a \$1 pass line bet. Once the pass line point was established he would place \$10 odds on it. Then he would make a \$1 "put bet" with 10X's odd on every other number and a \$1 come bet. One night he made 11 passes in a row with 80 plus rolls before "7ing out" and he always had his odds working on the come out. Needless to say the guy had a HUGE night!
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 8444
April 30th, 2011 at 2:37:14 AM permalink
Quote: goatcabin

A good example of what I'm talking about - if you combine a hardway and a field bet, you do lower the combined house edge, since a field bet has a lower edge than a hardway, but you ADD to your expected loss, not subtract from it.

Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, Ca

Ah. I stand corrected. At least we agree a player is not accomplishing what he wants.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FleaStiff
Joined: Oct 19, 2009
• Posts: 14484
April 30th, 2011 at 4:25:22 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

You could play pass line/full odds, one come bet/full odds, and a don't come bet/full odds. If you are lucky and they hit in the right order you will win the come bets before you 7 out. It will reduce your variance a little.

I often try this, usually for 2comebets or 3comebets and then switching to the DontCome. It always seems to annoy the dealers for some reason.

I usually have my odds working on ComeOut rolls but often this doesn't work out too well for me.
BenJammin
Joined: Nov 1, 2009
• Posts: 133
June 5th, 2011 at 10:48:28 AM permalink
Odds working on the Come Out you just lose your odds and original bet if the shooter rolls a 7.

This is assuming the last point was made.

So, you've got all your odds working and the guy rolls a 7. It sucks to be you!

Remember, the 7 comes up more than any other number.
Member In Good Standing!
goatcabin
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
• Posts: 664
June 5th, 2011 at 1:19:29 PM permalink
Quote: BenJammin

Odds working on the Come Out you just lose your odds and original bet if the shooter rolls a 7.

This is assuming the last point was made.

So, you've got all your odds working and the guy rolls a 7. It sucks to be you!

Remember, the 7 comes up more than any other number.

This is no different than having your odds working when it's not the pass comeout. If you want to bet odds, why not have them working?

It's the pass comeout, and you have a come bet behind the four, with working odds. The shooter rolls a four. You win your come and and 2-to-1 odds. It's great to be you!

If you think there's any difference between the pass comeout roll and any other roll, you're confused.
Cheers,
Alan Shank
Woodland, CA
Cheers, Alan Shank "How's that for a squabble, Pugh?" Peter Boyle as Mister Moon in "Yellowbeard"
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
• Posts: 417
August 19th, 2014 at 1:25:42 AM permalink
Quote: goatcabin

Since the odds have a zero expectation, there is no mathematical reason to have them not working - or working, for that matter.

According to the Wizard, Come Odds should always be left on, since the Come bet itself cannot be turned off. He elsewhere once gave an example of a Come bet up on 5 with maximum Odds behind it increasing the overall house edge by 0.377% by turning the Odds off through come-out.
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 8444
August 19th, 2014 at 5:26:17 AM permalink
Quote: NowTheSerpent

According to the Wizard, Come Odds should always be left on, since the Come bet itself cannot be turned off. He elsewhere once gave an example of a Come bet up on 5 with maximum Odds behind it increasing the overall house edge by 0.377% by turning the Odds off through come-out.

To perfectly grasp why the Wizard likes free odds at all, you have to understand that he is framing the use of it in the context of the amount of action the player wants. In other words, if you are at a \$25 min table and that *is* also the size bet you are comfortable with, IMO Michael would not say to that gambler to use free odds to try to increase how much he will win.

At a \$5 min table, it would pain him [and most of us] to see the same player place that same \$25 bet on the passline with no free odds.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
• Posts: 417
August 22nd, 2014 at 12:32:51 AM permalink
Quote: kp

....[A]lways placing a Field bet when you bet the hardways will lower the house edge.

Hardways 2&2 (or 5&5) with a Triple-12 Field: (-1*8 + 7*1 + 2*1 + 3*1 + 1*14 - 1*20)/(9 + 36) = -4.2553% (v. -6.3830% with a Double-12 Field).

Hardways 3&3 (or 4&4) with a Triple-12 Field: (-1*10 + 9*1 + 2*1 + 3*1 + 1*14 - 1*20)/(11+36) = -4.0816% (v. -6.1224%).

Per-roll for Hardways 2&2/5&5 + T12 Field: (2*1 + 3*1 + 1*14 - 1*20 + 7*1 - 1*8 + 0*27)/(2*36) = -2.7778% (v. -4.1667%).

Per-roll for Hardways 3&3/4&4 + T12 Field: (2*1 + 3*1 + 1*14 - 1*20 + 9*1 - 1*10 + 0*25)/(2*36) = -2.7778% (v. -4.1667%).