Dice Sliders Arrested

.

3 links - the 1st is a youtube news report of the arrest from yesterday - the dice sliding incident occured in 2021

the 2nd link is a Daily Mail story from yesterday giving more details

the 3rd link is a Prosecutor showing exactly how dice sliding occurred in a different casino 6 years ago with real footage of the move


.


.

.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12129705/Las-Vegas-gamblers-charged-dice-sliding-scheme.html
.

.


.

"Roll that beautiful bean footage!"

Hmm. I never thought about it before but where is the line between those who claim dice control (by making the dice move as little as possible), and those who are simply cheating (by making the dice move as little as possible)?

Why is dice sliding "cheating?"

The player is rolling dem bones without putting any foreign substance on them: where is the violation of the rules which say to roll em and hit the wall?

More like skill than felony.

Bah.

The dice didn't hit the wall, or even any chips; so the dealers had every opportunity to call a "no roll". Maybe a few $100 hop bet payouts of $3K add up to a quarter million dollars? Dealers were not observant or the jerk dealers who routinely call "no roll" were at another game.

hold on everything about this post is misleading... the first video claims that it was ELECTRONIC CRAPS

the second video was dice sliding....

the only cheating ive ever heard about was someone removing the glass and making the dice land on the exact sides...

someone clarify whats happening please

They did it at electronic craps.

I think this one will be difficult for them to prove. Why does the electronic craps table not recognize a no-roll?

It was a particular E-Craps table by Azure called "Roll to Win" which actually allows dice physically thrown

https://aruzegaming.com/table-games/roll-to-win-craps/

Basically like a real craps table but without live dealers

I would argue this is a fault of the engineering and not cheating.

The 2nd video is of casino footage in Ohio maybe from 6 years ago that has nothing to do with the current case except to show what dice sliding actually is as an example in another long-ago case. Electronic craps in this case is the Roll To Win, not to be confused with the Bubble Craps version of Shoot To Win. Roll To Win has a glass table top and I thought there were a few speed bumps embedded within the glass to prevent dice-sliding from being successful. As you can imagine, using the sliding technique on a glass table has better opportunities without the speed bumps. But still, the dice have to hit the wall per dealer's instruction or they pass the dice on to the next shooter after a small number of faults. It's up to the dealers and the pit boss and no one else whether a roll is good or not unless surveillance gets called. Roll To Win has one stick person.

I don't presume to be a dice slider by any means. I shoot too high if anything and land just before the Don't Come line and the dice still don't hit the wall. The occasional dealer will tell me to hit the wall next time. And I tell them I'm too weak to hit the wall, lol. Meanwhile the next woman throws so hard it goes off the table for 3 out of 5 rolls.

Quote: darkoz

I would argue this is a fault of the engineering and not cheating.
link to original post

is this not exactly like a malfunction?

Quote: heatmap

hold on everything about this post is MISLEADING... the first video claims that it was ELECTRONIC CRAPS

the second video was dice sliding....

link to original post

I feel that it's unfair to me that you called my post misleading

I provided 2 links on the arrest re electronic craps - both from news sources - and I posted that the incident occurred in 2021

the last link was just informative - and I clearly stated that it was from a different casino 6 years ago

in the first sentence of my post I clearly stated that the arrest documented by the news sources occurred in 2021

I did not post that the more recent incident was electronic craps - but this was clearly pointed out by both news sources

I don't believe my OP was in any way misleading

.

Quote: lilredrooster

Quote: heatmap

hold on everything about this post is MISLEADING... the first video claims that it was ELECTRONIC CRAPS

the second video was dice sliding....

link to original post

I feel that it's unfair to me that you called my post misleading

I provided 2 links on the arrest re electronic craps - both from news sources - and I posted that the incident occurred in 2021

the last link was just informative - and I clearly stated that it was from a different casino 6 years ago

in the first sentence of my post I clearly stated that the arrest documented by the news sources occurred in 2021

I did not post that the more recent incident was electronic craps - but this was clearly pointed out by both news sources

I don't believe my OP was in any way misleading

.
link to original post

Posts are always misleading when you don't fully read them!

Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz

I would argue this is a fault of the engineering and not cheating.
link to original post

is this not exactly like a malfunction?
link to original post

Possibly and what will make this case difficult.

Did the Aruze machine work properly? And if it did then were these rolls considered legit by the electronic software? And if it was considered legit how can it be cheating if the machines acted properly?

Actually in this case I would equate it more with handle popping in which slots could be manipulated by pulling the handle a certain way. At first it was considered illegal until a judge asked just how pulling a slot handle could be cheating if the machine was working properly in all other respects and not manipulated in all other respects.

I think the dealer manually inputs the results of the dice. I don't believe there's an overhead camera reading the dice. The dealer would have to tell the shooter to alter his form of shooting the dice. But this does raise the issue of dealer mistakes when inputting the dice results. You see them do it in California when they have to draw a card or two based on the dice results.

They may be hip dice sliders, but didn't casinos ban that decades or ago, or did they forget? Seems casinos can find card counters before they even take a seat.

. I have seen that game in multiple locations and it always has had dealers on it.

Quote: ChumpChange

I think the dealer manually inputs the results of the dice. I don't believe there's an overhead camera reading the dice. The dealer would have to tell the shooter to alter his form of shooting the dice. But this does raise the issue of dealer mistakes when inputting the dice results. You see them do it in California when they have to draw a card or two based on the dice results.

They may be hip dice sliders, but didn't casinos ban that decades or ago, or did they forget? Seems casinos can find card counters before they even take a seat.
link to original post

Did the original machines not have the non-slidey coating on the screens?
All the placements I've seen have been so fitted.

Is it cheating to take first base on ball four when the umpire should have called the pitch a strike?

Isn't it the job of the casino to call 'No roll'?

If dice sliding is a crime, then it's the job of the player to not commit that criminal offense.

Quote: GenoDRPh

If dice sliding is a crime, then it's the job of the player to not commit that criminal offense.
link to original post

Apparently there is no specific statute I can find that prohibits dice sliding.

However there is a general statute that anyone who knowingly manipulates the physical items used in gambling such that the outcome is no longer the same odds (I am paraphrasing here btw) then it's a crime.

Handle popping is specifically mentioned so that statute was apparently written to cover that and future scenarios.

With handle popping, a gambler was found guilty of cheating by handle popping or pulling the handle of slots in a way that made it pay out more often. He didn't alter the machines do it. You could have done it too if you knew the trick.

Because of that he appealed and won. The higher court felt if he was just pulling the handle, there was nothing in the statutes that stated he had to pull it a specific way and that anyone could have discovered the trick and feel compelled to continue when discovering they have a better win ratio. (Again paraphrasing from memory)

So the statute was written to make manipulation like that illegal.

I imagine that's the statute these guys will be charged in violation of. Manipulation of gambling equipment with the knowledge and intent that it would change the expected outcome of the game.

So this is going to be a hairy defense for them at the same time it's dicey (no pun intended) for the prosecution.

Quote: Mental

Is it cheating to take first base on ball four when the umpire should have called the pitch a strike?

Isn't it the job of the casino to call 'No roll'?
link to original post

I was thinking along the same lines. The player can throw anyway he likes the casino determines if they will
allow it or not and apparently they did until they didn't.

Quote: darkoz

Apparently there is no specific statute I can find that prohibits dice sliding.

However there is a general statute that anyone who knowingly manipulates the physical items used in gambling such that the outcome is no longer the same odds (I am paraphrasing here btw) then it's a crime.

Handle popping is specifically mentioned so that statute was apparently written to cover that and future scenarios.

With handle popping, a gambler was found guilty of cheating by handle popping or pulling the handle of slots in a way that made it pay out more often. He didn't alter the machines do it. You could have done it too if you knew the trick.

Because of that he appealed and won. The higher court felt if he was just pulling the handle, there was nothing in the statutes that stated he had to pull it a specific way and that anyone could have discovered the trick and feel compelled to continue when discovering they have a better win ratio. (Again paraphrasing from memory)

So the statute was written to make manipulation like that illegal.

I imagine that's the statute these guys will be charged in violation of. Manipulation of gambling equipment with the knowledge and intent that it would change the expected outcome of the game.

So this is going to be a hairy defense for them at the same time it's dicey (no pun intended) for the prosecution.
link to original post

craps was obviously intended as a game of luck
the sliders turn it into a game of skill
that doesn't necessarily mean that it's cheating - but the excellent explanation by darkoz suggests that it is
in comparison - visual prediction and dealer signature prediction in roulette and card counting in bj cannot be cheating because there is no manipulation of physical items

.

do my eyes deceive me?

the shooter moves the Stick dealer out of the way and then shoots the dice. It seems to be a slide, more on that later but first ...

I have never seen anyone ask the Stick to move out of the way. Nor anyone bold enough to not just ask that, but then stand in Stick's spot to shoot the dice. This alone is a possible advantage, even if rolling instead of sliding, as two things that help kill dice setting the most is hitting the back wall plus the kinetic energy imparted on the dice having to make a long toss

The shooter should have to shoot from left of Stick, with Stick actually in the way. Mistake #1 is allowing that. Mistake #2 is not calling a 'no roll' when both dice fail to hit the back wall. Sometimes when only one die fails to hit the back wall, I've seen that get by, but rarely both, not if the table has been hot. Mistake #3 is allowing the sliding die/dice

If this is the incident I had heard something about before, the dealers were in on it. I agree that calling a 'no roll' is the right way to handle a dice slide. Deciding you lost too much money after the fact and then going after the players sucks ... but if these dealers were in on this, maybe you prosecute them. Certainly you fire them, even if they were just intimidated into allowing this. I'd hate to think they were just untrained, but this is likely the case I heard of, dealers in on it

On the recent incident, I had just posted in another thread that it occurred to me that sliding the dice might be possible on "roll to win" tables. Someone replied to me by PM that they didn't think the surface was right, that it wasn't glass or had some coating that wouldn't allow it. Playing myself on that type, I remembered the dice acted odd when they hit, and Doc, who I was playing with, thought he saw even weirder things.

Was this particular table different, no coating on plain glass?

If I was on the jury, I would not convict. I agree that a dice slider should just get 'no-rolled' and asked to leave if persisting. You've handed the guy the instruments and told him to go for it; you haven't trained him or even said a word to him. How now is he culpable?

Dice control is skill. Dice slide is cheating.

I should say dice control is theoretically a skill because no one has ever demonstrated the ability to do it at a statistically significant level

Quote: darkoz

Quote: GenoDRPh

If dice sliding is a crime, then it's the job of the player to not commit that criminal offense.
link to original post

Apparently there is no specific statute I can find that prohibits dice sliding.

However there is a general statute that anyone who knowingly manipulates the physical items used in gambling such that the outcome is no longer the same odds (I am paraphrasing here btw) then it's a crime.

Handle popping is specifically mentioned so that statute was apparently written to cover that and future scenarios.

With handle popping, a gambler was found guilty of cheating by handle popping or pulling the handle of slots in a way that made it pay out more often. He didn't alter the machines do it. You could have done it too if you knew the trick.

Because of that he appealed and won. The higher court felt if he was just pulling the handle, there was nothing in the statutes that stated he had to pull it a specific way and that anyone could have discovered the trick and feel compelled to continue when discovering they have a better win ratio. (Again paraphrasing from memory)

So the statute was written to make manipulation like that illegal.

I imagine that's the statute these guys will be charged in violation of. Manipulation of gambling equipment with the knowledge and intent that it would change the expected outcome of the game.

So this is going to be a hairy defense for them at the same time it's dicey (no pun intended) for the prosecution.
link to original post

The defendants are charged with felony counts of committing a fraudulent act in gaming establishment as a first offense, and felony counts of cheating at a gambling game as a first offense.

Is there case law that states those offenses include dice sliding? Are there prior cases regarding the same or similar circumstances?

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: darkoz

Quote: GenoDRPh

If dice sliding is a crime, then it's the job of the player to not commit that criminal offense.
link to original post

Apparently there is no specific statute I can find that prohibits dice sliding.

However there is a general statute that anyone who knowingly manipulates the physical items used in gambling such that the outcome is no longer the same odds (I am paraphrasing here btw) then it's a crime.

Handle popping is specifically mentioned so that statute was apparently written to cover that and future scenarios.

With handle popping, a gambler was found guilty of cheating by handle popping or pulling the handle of slots in a way that made it pay out more often. He didn't alter the machines do it. You could have done it too if you knew the trick.

Because of that he appealed and won. The higher court felt if he was just pulling the handle, there was nothing in the statutes that stated he had to pull it a specific way and that anyone could have discovered the trick and feel compelled to continue when discovering they have a better win ratio. (Again paraphrasing from memory)

So the statute was written to make manipulation like that illegal.

I imagine that's the statute these guys will be charged in violation of. Manipulation of gambling equipment with the knowledge and intent that it would change the expected outcome of the game.

So this is going to be a hairy defense for them at the same time it's dicey (no pun intended) for the prosecution.
link to original post

The defendants are charged with felony counts of committing a fraudulent act in gaming establishment as a first offense, and felony counts of cheating at a gambling game as a first offense.

Is there case law that states those offenses include dice sliding? Are there prior cases regarding the same or similar circumstances?
link to original post

Hard to find anything. It's difficult to accomplish without help from the dealers basically.

I found one person found guilty of dice sliding in 2020.

https://www.casino.org/news/lake-tahoe-cheater-is-craps-out-of-luck/

Quote: darkoz

[
Hard to find anything. It's difficult to accomplish without help from the dealers basically.

I found one person found guilty of dice sliding in 2020.

https://www.casino.org/news/lake-tahoe-cheater-is-craps-out-of-luck/
link to original post

Not that's a clever headline writer!

the table shown has a glass top [I think] ... no way to know if that's pertinent to the story. Just saying.

I've also noticed some of our APs here, one at least, up till recently not interested in Craps possibilities, have instead now hinted at a new development they like. They are oddly silent in this thread and another thread ...

so yeah, I'm smiling to myself.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: darkoz

Quote: GenoDRPh

If dice sliding is a crime, then it's the job of the player to not commit that criminal offense.
link to original post

Apparently there is no specific statute I can find that prohibits dice sliding.

However there is a general statute that anyone who knowingly manipulates the physical items used in gambling such that the outcome is no longer the same odds (I am paraphrasing here btw) then it's a crime.

Handle popping is specifically mentioned so that statute was apparently written to cover that and future scenarios.

With handle popping, a gambler was found guilty of cheating by handle popping or pulling the handle of slots in a way that made it pay out more often. He didn't alter the machines do it. You could have done it too if you knew the trick.

Because of that he appealed and won. The higher court felt if he was just pulling the handle, there was nothing in the statutes that stated he had to pull it a specific way and that anyone could have discovered the trick and feel compelled to continue when discovering they have a better win ratio. (Again paraphrasing from memory)

So the statute was written to make manipulation like that illegal.

I imagine that's the statute these guys will be charged in violation of. Manipulation of gambling equipment with the knowledge and intent that it would change the expected outcome of the game.

So this is going to be a hairy defense for them at the same time it's dicey (no pun intended) for the prosecution.
link to original post

The defendants are charged with felony counts of committing a fraudulent act in gaming establishment as a first offense, and felony counts of cheating at a gambling game as a first offense.

Is there case law that states those offenses include dice sliding? Are there prior cases regarding the same or similar circumstances?
link to original post

Hard to find anything. It's difficult to accomplish without help from the dealers basically.

I found one person found guilty of dice sliding in 2020.

https://www.casino.org/news/lake-tahoe-cheater-is-craps-out-of-luck/
link to original post

Dude got a suspended sentence, credit for 19 days time served and had to pay over $9k in restitution. As an aside, I also found a death notice for a man with the same name and age from Sacramento. It is unknown if it['s the same person.

Found another conviction from Ohio. https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2017/01/dice-sliding_duo_who_cheated_c.html

Does anyone have any instances where charges were dropped for found not guilty at trial?

Quote: darkoz

Hard to find anything. It's difficult to accomplish without help from the dealers basically.

I found one person found guilty of dice sliding in 2020.

https://www.casino.org/news/lake-tahoe-cheater-is-craps-out-of-luck/
link to original post

Here’s an interesting quote from that article.

Quote:

“Dice sliding is so obvious that it is easy to stop. It makes no sense they could get away with that much money unless they had inside help,” former gaming reporter Alan Mendelson told the Las Vegas Review-Journal, at the time.

I first saw the roll to win machine at a G2E several years ago. I did not like it because of the glass surface. I normally like to rub my fingers on the felt before picking up the dice, and the clickety-clack the dice make when they bounce around it was very unnerving.

However, such a table will be perfect for dice slitders. And since this indictment is for a relatively old offense, maybe the sliding was done on a plain glass top machine.

I found a video showcasing the machine, here: https://travelzork.com/play-roll-to-win-craps/

Here’s one frame:
See that faint white line running from the 4 to the P in pass? That’s the barrier that dealers have to move the dice around when bringing them in. There’s one on the other side too. You could barely see the line next to the E in the pass line.

They’re there to force players to throw the dice beyond that point effectively preventing sliders. It is not the full with the table, allowing a space for the dealer to bring them in.

A player should not have been able to get away with sliding more than one or two times. Frankly, although I think the player is guilty, that dealer should be fired.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Quote: darkoz

Hard to find anything. It's difficult to accomplish without help from the dealers basically.

I found one person found guilty of dice sliding in 2020.

https://www.casino.org/news/lake-tahoe-cheater-is-craps-out-of-luck/
link to original post

Here’s an interesting quote from that article.

Quote:

“Dice sliding is so obvious that it is easy to stop. It makes no sense they could get away with that much money unless they had inside help,” former gaming reporter Alan Mendelson told the Las Vegas Review-Journal, at the time.

I first saw the roll to win machine at a G2E several years ago. I did not like it because of the glass surface. I normally like to rub my fingers on the felt before picking up the dice, and the clickety-clack the dice make when they bounce around it was very unnerving.

However, such a table will be perfect for dice slitders. And since this indictment is for a relatively old offense, maybe the sliding was done on a plain glass top machine.

I found a video showcasing the machine, here: https://travelzork.com/play-roll-to-win-craps/

Here’s one frame:
See that faint white line running from the 4 to the P in pass? That’s the barrier that dealers have to move the dice around when bringing them in. There’s one on the other side too. You could barely see the line next to the E in the pass line.

They’re there to force players to throw the dice beyond that point effectively preventing sliders. It is not the full with the table, allowing a space for the dealer to bring them in.

A player should not have been able to get away with sliding more than one or two times. Frankly, although I think the player is guilty, that dealer should be fired.
link to original post

It's hard for me to agree with someone's freedom being taken from them by force of law for this. The casino
has a policy on what constitutes an acceptable throw if its violated they have the ability to boot the player.
A player being prosecuted for how they throw/move the dice down the table is pretty absurd and I believe
an abuse of power. For crying out loud you invite people in to throw your dice you don't like the way they do it so
the law steps in and takes their freedom.

The solution to the Aruze table is new dice, A hard rubber/rubberized composite material ends all sliding concerns.

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: darkoz

[
Hard to find anything. It's difficult to accomplish without help from the dealers basically.

I found one person found guilty of dice sliding in 2020.

https://www.casino.org/news/lake-tahoe-cheater-is-craps-out-of-luck/
link to original post

Not that's a clever headline writer!

the table shown has a glass top [I think] ... no way to know if that's pertinent to the story. Just saying.

I've also noticed some of our APs here, one at least, up till recently not interested in Craps possibilities, have instead now hinted at a new development they like. They are oddly silent in this thread and another thread ...

so yeah, I'm smiling to myself.
link to original post

I'm not sure if you are talking about me. I did see something I really liked related to a skilled toss, however, it has nothing to do with sliding/scooting. Whatever happened to... "I did see something I really liked related to a skilled toss"
I passed it off to a friend who is better equipped (has his own table, and enjoys craps) to evaluate if there's an advantage to be had. I believe they do have a slight edge, but not enough to warrant further action. Either way, If there was ever a situation where someone had a significant +EV situation, I certainly wouldn't be talking about it publicly.

As far as dice scooting/sliding. It's my understanding that it's illegal in most jurisdictions. I wouldn't want to be involved...even if one found some technicality where it wasn't actually illegal for whatever reason.

I don't know if they were actually illegally cheating in this situation. I don't trust NGC's initial reactions to many situations. They oftentimes have an... arrest/take action now, and figure it out later mentality.

Does anyone know if this setup is classified as a slot or table game? What happens when you cash out on these machines, is it a TITO situation, do they give you chips to cash in? Just curious as to what steps and effort was needed to pull this off

I wouldn't think a group of people willing and able to pull this off would go into it without researching the law and weighing the pros and cons. They may have known they would get caught and charged at some point. Who knows how much they actually made before gaming got involved?
It seems like they kept going back to the same locations because it was worth targeting specific employees.

I have heard of multiple cases involving scooting/sliding over the years. From what I understand it's hard to get a conviction. From my understanding, there's usually some type of plea deal.

It's a TITO game, so if you bet $35 on a hop number and get paid 31 for 1 that totals a $1,085 payout, just below the W-2G limit of $1.2K.
I saw a video last night of a strategy where a player tries to hit a horn high Ace-Deuce bet or a hopping hardway (4,6,8,10) twice in a row. I'm thinking that's 27.77% of the possible rolls, so run a progression on that and try to get 7 to 10 in a row.

Quote: AxelWolf

I'm not sure if you are talking about me. I did see something I really liked related to a skilled toss, however, it has nothing to do with sliding/scooting.... link to original post

Good, thanks for explaining.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

I found a video showcasing the machine, here: https://travelzork.com/play-roll-to-win-craps/

https://twitter.com/MeltzVegas/status/1049716066702639105 will take you straight to it. It's been a while since that one time I played with this setup, and I don't remember the total attention the stick was playing to the rolls. I remember a dealer quite occupied with entering rolls or something into the computer, and then turning around to 'be stick'. However, I have to admit I may be remembering wrong, yet I have it firmly in my head that it was just one guy running the whole thing. I can say for sure some things were different, in this one there is the special effects of the bets being placed as if by laser ... the table I played at didn't have that and I don't remember special effects of any kind.

In the video, is there another dealer we don't see entering results, or is it automatic entry? Goes pretty fast. For sure I think you want one person dedicated to being Stick, keeping the dice moving and ready to call 'no roll'.

Quote:

See that faint white line running from the 4 to the P in pass? That’s the barrier that dealers have to move the dice around when bringing them in. There’s one on the other side too. You could barely see the line next to the E in the pass line.

They’re there to force players to throw the dice beyond that point effectively preventing sliders.

I wonder if they make a bump. Just having a good distance alone might not prevent sliding, though Stick is sure there to call 'no roll'
link to original post

Odious -

You might be remembering Rapid Craps, which was a ShuffleMaster product. The only difference being the layout was a regular felt printed layout. The only thing rapid about it was the fast/accurate payouts.

The player terminals were similar, both were TITO, and both used a single dealer that was the stick person, and entered the dice results.

And both used dealers that required no craps training, and often looked rather bored.

There was a WOV thread on a past case at Wynn, from 2011:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/6829-gambler-accused-of-dice-sliding-at-wynn-las-vegas-sued-for-return-of-700-000/

discussing this 2011 dice sliding incident:
Couple accused of dice sliding at Wynn Las Vegas
There was no criminal case against the one defendant Veronica Dabul while the other defendant Leonardo Fernandez had two 2011 criminal cases filed against him neither apparently resulting in a conviction. The charges were
CONSPIRACY VIOLATE THE GAMING LAWS NRS 465.070
CHEATING AT GAMBLING NRS 465.083
both felonies.
These are general cheating statutes - only thing interesting is that for a conspiracy to be charged more than one person must be involved, and no one else was prosecuted in that case, so maybe they were just "unnamed" or "not charged" parties. I recall some mention of alleged dealer involvement in the WOV thread?
There was a 2011 civil case by Wynn against Fernandez that was dismissed with prejudice (cannot be refiled) in 2013, but that doesn't mean that the parties did not come to some kind of financial settlement. (Typically in civil cases the settlement itself is not filed with the court, just the dismissal.) What is interesting about that civil case is that there were subsequent entries as recently as January 2023, not sure why that would happen with a dismissed case unless there was something to enforce.

As far as I know the most recent dice sliding case in Vegas was in 2017, at the Flamingo:
Foreign national booked in Las Vegas on charges of cheating at craps
The defendant there Badri Tsertsvadze had two open 2017 criminal cases, not clear which one was over dice sliding, or if both were. What is interesting about the criminal cases is that one alleged a loss of under < $650. (misdemeanor, NRS 205.0835.2) but the charged felonies (Cheating at gaming, 1st offense, NRS 465.085) in both cases were all pursuant to the same general cheating statute.
One case was eventually dismissed, the other he was convicted (something to do with the Excalibur or Luxor and that was the one involving the under < $650. loss) and still has an active warrant for failure to comply with probation terms, or some such.
It would seem that the Flamingo dice sliding case did not result in a conviction and that he was convicted only for some under <$650. matter at Luxor or Excalibur.
I did not find a record of any civil cases in Clark County against him.

I don't play craps but someone who does might want to pore through all of the above more closely, but above are the basic facts.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Odious -

You might be remembering Rapid Craps, which was a ShuffleMaster product. The only difference being the layout was a regular felt printed layout. The only thing rapid about it was the fast/accurate payouts.

The player terminals were similar, both were TITO, and both used a single dealer that was the stick person, and entered the dice results.

And both used dealers that required no craps training, and often looked rather bored.
link to original post

It was at Harrah's, Cherokee NC , and I made a note about what the game was called so I could blog about it. 2021 this was, which maybe is like personal computers, 2 years makes it ancient

I found a video from Azure gaming that shows at one point shows how the dealer inputs the roll result. If somebody is totally devoted to Stick duty then it takes two dealers ... either that or it's been changed since the video below was made. You have to click on the icon to see the video

https://aruzegaming.com/table-games/roll-to-win-craps/#

Aside from dice sliding Aruze in my opinion made a beautiful tub this to me is hard to beat.

Without the pandemic, my local casino would have never introduced Aruze Bubble Craps.

The fact it’s an electronic machine makes the legality seem fairly ambiguous/grey area imo, wouldn’t dare try it but I think it’s likely the arrested didn’t think (and probably still don’t think) it was illegal.

Quote: mcallister3200

The fact it’s an electronic machine makes the legality seem fairly ambiguous/grey area imo, wouldn’t dare try it but I think it’s likely the arrested didn’t think (and probably still don’t think) it was illegal.
link to original post

The machine itself may be "electronic", but there's still physical dice a player rolls, and the casino rules and the state laws about rolling them bones still apply. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: mcallister3200

The fact it’s an electronic machine makes the legality seem fairly ambiguous/grey area imo, wouldn’t dare try it but I think it’s likely the arrested didn’t think (and probably still don’t think) it was illegal.
link to original post

The machine itself may be "electronic", but there's still physical dice a player rolls, and the casino rules and the state laws about rolling them bones still apply. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
link to original post

There may be a defense if and it's a big if...

Has this version of the game been designed to read the dice instead of the dealer similar to bubble craps.

The reason this might be a defense is the game itself recognized the roles as legitimate. It wasn't the dealer who paid them out but the tables electronics itself.

Certainly if the game is reading the dice it can declare no-rolls and if it has the ability to declare no-rolls (I have seen Roulette for example where the ball malfunctioned upon being shot out and a no spin was declared) then a defense is they threw the dice and it was accepted as a legal throw by the electronic table.

I'm not saying that's the case or that defense will hold. But it may be enough to spin doubt with a jury.

Quote: darkoz

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: mcallister3200

The fact it’s an electronic machine makes the legality seem fairly ambiguous/grey area imo, wouldn’t dare try it but I think it’s likely the arrested didn’t think (and probably still don’t think) it was illegal.
link to original post

The machine itself may be "electronic", but there's still physical dice a player rolls, and the casino rules and the state laws about rolling them bones still apply. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
link to original post

There may be a defense if and it's a big if...

Has this version of the game been designed to read the dice instead of the dealer similar to bubble craps.

The reason this might be a defense is the game itself recognized the roles as legitimate. It wasn't the dealer who paid them out but the tables electronics itself.


Certainly if the game is reading the dice it can declare no-rolls and if it has the ability to declare no-rolls (I have seen Roulette for example where the ball malfunctioned upon being shot out and a no spin was declared) then a defense is they threw the dice and it was accepted as a legal throw by the electronic table.

I'm not saying that's the case or that defense will hold. But it may be enough to spin doubt with a jury.
link to original post

Maybe. But for RTW craps the dealer enters the result of the roll manually, The game doesn't read the roll results a la bubble craps. Indeed, Azure's website states that pit boss and security is still required.

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: darkoz

Quote: GenoDRPh

Quote: mcallister3200

The fact it’s an electronic machine makes the legality seem fairly ambiguous/grey area imo, wouldn’t dare try it but I think it’s likely the arrested didn’t think (and probably still don’t think) it was illegal.
link to original post

The machine itself may be "electronic", but there's still physical dice a player rolls, and the casino rules and the state laws about rolling them bones still apply. Ignorance of the law is no excuse.
link to original post

There may be a defense if and it's a big if...

Has this version of the game been designed to read the dice instead of the dealer similar to bubble craps.

The reason this might be a defense is the game itself recognized the roles as legitimate. It wasn't the dealer who paid them out but the tables electronics itself.


Certainly if the game is reading the dice it can declare no-rolls and if it has the ability to declare no-rolls (I have seen Roulette for example where the ball malfunctioned upon being shot out and a no spin was declared) then a defense is they threw the dice and it was accepted as a legal throw by the electronic table.

I'm not saying that's the case or that defense will hold. But it may be enough to spin doubt with a jury.
link to original post

Maybe. But for RTW craps the dealer enters the result of the roll manually, The game doesn't read the roll results a la bubble craps. Indeed, Azure's website states that pit boss and security is still required.
link to original post

Well if that's the case I think they are in some deep Craps.

Marc Meltzer (whose video I had referenced earlier in this thread) wrote an article about this incident for PlayUSA.

https://www.playusa.com/dice-sliding-cosmopolitan-las-vegas-casino/

According to the report, “the cheating involved multiple suspects and occurred on the Azure Roll to Win Electronic Craps table.”

It's not that I'm dyslexic and want to spell it Azure, but this report did the same. The website link read Aruze.

Further: The Roll To Win Craps game by Aruze was removed from the casino floor at The Cosmopolitan by mid-January.