Need advice as a Don’t player on long roll

Mr.OG, Can you clarify which people the casinos are trying to find and then what the casinos will do when they "find" them? The statement puzzles me.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

A dedicated knowledgeable multiplayer hunter/ vulture/ sniper, or whatever you call it would make a hell of a lot more than a few hundred dollars a week, one could make hundreds a day on average if they're really going for it.

Most of the advantage players that have been doing this for a while have multiple plays in their toolbox, vulturing is just a small part of that toolbox. Most of the guys that I know don't even bother with that stuff all that often unless they just happened to be walking by or there is something new and Juicy out there that hasn't been discovered by the masses yet.
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I would like you to tell us:
1. How much "free play" would a player receive per month from his favorite casino if his average play/month is $2,000-$4,000?
2. In order to receive the "big bucks" free play, what level of play is required?
3. There is a suggestion within this post that "free play" is basically a non-factor in gambling and that one might infer, to that end, that AP really does not exist with some very small exceptions. So why the chest beating and huffing and puffing about "Hey, I AM AN AP."?

What you have confirmed with this part of the discussion is that when it comes to table games, the advantage is unmistakably with the House.

tuttigym
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First off, let's make sure we are not mixing live table craps play with slots, for the part most part they are two entirely different animals.

Most all casinos are different, so it's really not possible to give you an answer to that question, it could be a juicy amount or it could be very little. Even if I had knowledge of a specific location, it's unlikely I would share that information with someone I wasn't working with or had a good reason to share it.

To start, I will refer back to my first sentence. "Small exceptions". If we are talking about slots then there's an advantage to be had in just about every casino, some are significant and some are minimal and the size or location of the casino doesn't always matter.

I don't know if there's any chest-beating, I only explained to Alan and those who care to listen that it's more profitable than he seemed to indicate. Why did I point that out, who knows, why does anybody point out certain things or participate here in the first place?

Quote: AxelWolf

First off, let's make sure we are not mixing live table craps play with slots, for the part most part they are two entirely different animals.

I absolutely agree. My casino, during certain periods of day and time, provide "lucky seat" giveaways for which I have been a beneficiary ($500). That is a huge AP. Table games not so much maybe $25.

I am sure there are dozens of posts proclaiming that being an AP is the only way to beat the game or the casino otherwise, as some have stated, those who play, virtually anything, will lose. That is the "chest-beating" I see. IMO that is misleading nothing more.

tuttigym

Quote: tuttigym

Mr.OG, Can you clarify which people the casinos are trying to find

you do know card counters in blackjack are unwelcome and why, just for an example?

Quote:

... and then what the casinos will do when they "find" them? The statement puzzles me.

tuttigym
link to original post

Usually they are 'trespassed' meaning they are booted and are told if they come back to the casino they'll be arrested for trespassing. But their rights can be severely abused sometimes. You'd need to look for "back-roomed" stories, some of them are on youtube. There are stories here, such as this link: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/15767-my-first-backroom-treatment/

Bob Nersesian is a famed attorney who represents such people, and there are others. Bob wrote a book, it must have a lot of stories. http://huntingtonpress.com/law-for-gamblers-the/

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: odiousgambit

The match play comes from comps earned by losing at the casino, at least that is the idea. So, following that, maybe you can make the case that the usual situation is the player thinking match play is +EV is actually a loser even though those bets placed are +EV.

This one paragraph sums it up and provides real clarity and transparency to whole AP discussion which states, IMO, AP is a myth.

Thank you Mr. OG.

tuttigym
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AP is not a myth. I went to my local casino for the first time in maybe 6 months yesterday. I was offered $25 in free slot play, and even a free room if I wanted one. I can get one free room one night in February. Doubt I'll use. Back to the story... I was planning on meeting a friend for our -EV pai gow poker play, which I refer to as loitering. So the plan was to meet at 12:30. I went at 11:30, and went to the two things I know how to AP, Golden Egypt and Ultimate X. I only got to play one one of the chances at Golden Egypt, with certainly a very positive EV. A few spins later I made around $25. Surprisingly there were a lot of multipliers left on Ultimate X. Made around $35 which seemed around what the EV was. So for around 30 minutes I cleared $60. I'm not trying to make a living doing it, but I just love that I can beat the casino, even at these very low amounts. There are probably a few dozen more slot machines that I don't know how to scavenge, that could make a loop worth $100. I won $60ish at pai Gow as well, so a good trip. Plus SMOKING NOT ALLOWED! I think I'll be going more often now! Geez, forgot to mention the free $25 bet I get next time I visit as well!

Quote: tuttigym

There's a mountain of evidence that Advantage Play is a real thing on many different levels and forms of casino games, one just needs to do a google search and start researching, you can find information that tells the how, when, where and how much. There's information and links that will lead you to books, radio shows, podcasts, various websites, articles, Twitter accounts, etc.

If your personal knowledge isn't enough to assess what and how much to believe, you will have to find someone who's knowledgeable enough that you trust that can confirm or discredit the information.

It's no skin off my teeth if you don't believe, you're only depriving yourself of the knowledge, truth, and reality.

Quote: AxelWolf

Not all locations are going to have a +EV situation. It's almost always going to be limited in the amount of action/time you can get in. If you're in a location where you can easily casino hop (like Las Vegas) I'm sure someone dedicated to finding the sweet spots while being disciplined (playing the least amount of time/action that generates the best offers) could make a modest living playing +EV craps situations.

This is the kind of information that discourages me. I go to Vegas to have fun, not to chase comps. As mentioned, if they want to give me something of value then that’s fine, but I’m not going to waste my time jumping through hoops to get it

I play only pass/DP with full odds, so the house edge is well under 0.5%. I estimate the average edge on craps players is at least ten times that, so I figure I’m getting a 90% comp right there

Quote: tuttigym

I would like you to tell us:
1. How much "free play" would a player receive per month from his favorite casino if his average play/month is $2,000-$4,000?

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I have no idea what you mean by play/month.

There are very specific criteria a casino is looking for, like coin-in (points/tier credits earned) or hours on table multiplied by average wager.

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AxelWolf

Not all locations are going to have a +EV situation. It's almost always going to be limited in the amount of action/time you can get in. If you're in a location where you can easily casino hop (like Las Vegas) I'm sure someone dedicated to finding the sweet spots while being disciplined (playing the least amount of time/action that generates the best offers) could make a modest living playing +EV craps situations.

This is the kind of information that discourages me. I go to Vegas to have fun, not to chase comps. As mentioned, if they want to give me something of value then that’s fine, but I’m not going to waste my time jumping through hoops to get it

I play only pass/DP with full odds, so the house edge is well under 0.5%. I estimate the average edge on craps players is at least ten times that, so I figure I’m getting a 90% comp right there
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That is the difference. You go to Vegas to have fun. APing isn't about having fun. It's about exploiting inefficacies and making money. It's a job.

Quote: billryan

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AxelWolf

Not all locations are going to have a +EV situation. It's almost always going to be limited in the amount of action/time you can get in. If you're in a location where you can easily casino hop (like Las Vegas) I'm sure someone dedicated to finding the sweet spots while being disciplined (playing the least amount of time/action that generates the best offers) could make a modest living playing +EV craps situations.

This is the kind of information that discourages me. I go to Vegas to have fun, not to chase comps. As mentioned, if they want to give me something of value then that’s fine, but I’m not going to waste my time jumping through hoops to get it

I play only pass/DP with full odds, so the house edge is well under 0.5%. I estimate the average edge on craps players is at least ten times that, so I figure I’m getting a 90% comp right there
link to original post

That is the difference. You go to Vegas to have fun. APing isn't about having fun. It's about exploiting inefficacies and making money. It's a job.
link to original post

Good to know. “It’s a job” succinctly describes why I don’t bother.

Now I’m guessing there is a high enough betting level (playing all day at $1000 per hand?) where you don’t need to hustle the valuable comps (like free room at Bellagio) …and they are thrown at you. But at that level you probably don’t care much about comps anyway except for ego purposes maybe

Quote: billryan

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AxelWolf

Not all locations are going to have a +EV situation. It's almost always going to be limited in the amount of action/time you can get in. If you're in a location where you can easily casino hop (like Las Vegas) I'm sure someone dedicated to finding the sweet spots while being disciplined (playing the least amount of time/action that generates the best offers) could make a modest living playing +EV craps situations.

This is the kind of information that discourages me. I go to Vegas to have fun, not to chase comps. As mentioned, if they want to give me something of value then that’s fine, but I’m not going to waste my time jumping through hoops to get it

I play only pass/DP with full odds, so the house edge is well under 0.5%. I estimate the average edge on craps players is at least ten times that, so I figure I’m getting a 90% comp right there
link to original post

That is the difference. You go to Vegas to have fun. APing isn't about having fun. It's about exploiting inefficacies and making money. It's a job.
link to original post

Good to know. “It’s a job” succinctly describes why I don’t bother.

Now I’m guessing there is a high enough betting level (playing all day at $1000 per hand?) where you don’t need to hustle the valuable comps (like free room at Bellagio) …and they are thrown at you. But at that level you probably don’t care much about comps anyway except for ego purposes maybe

You'd guess wrong, but as you say this isn't for you.

Quote: Ace2

Quote: billryan

Quote: Ace2

Quote: AxelWolf

Not all locations are going to have a +EV situation. It's almost always going to be limited in the amount of action/time you can get in. If you're in a location where you can easily casino hop (like Las Vegas) I'm sure someone dedicated to finding the sweet spots while being disciplined (playing the least amount of time/action that generates the best offers) could make a modest living playing +EV craps situations.

This is the kind of information that discourages me. I go to Vegas to have fun, not to chase comps. As mentioned, if they want to give me something of value then that’s fine, but I’m not going to waste my time jumping through hoops to get it

I play only pass/DP with full odds, so the house edge is well under 0.5%. I estimate the average edge on craps players is at least ten times that, so I figure I’m getting a 90% comp right there
link to original post

That is the difference. You go to Vegas to have fun. APing isn't about having fun. It's about exploiting inefficacies and making money. It's a job.
link to original post

Good to know. “It’s a job” succinctly describes why I don’t bother.

Now I’m guessing there is a high enough betting level (playing all day at $1000 per hand?) where you don’t need to hustle the valuable comps (like free room at Bellagio) …and they are thrown at you. But at that level you probably don’t care much about comps anyway except for ego purposes maybe
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It's fairly rare that I play for just comps(RFB), it would have to be something super juicy for me to go after comps, nowadays most of my comps end up expiring, so I don't feel like know enough about what kind of craps action it takes to get RFB. The last place I knew of that had some generous offers for not much play was at the SLS. That was definitely +EV in the form of all the free bets they would send you. They sent room and food offers as well. Usually, there's a delay 1-4 months before the offers start rolling in after you play.

AHigh would be someone that might have some good information on the best places to play craps for comps.

Quote: Ace2

[snip] I play only pass/DP with full odds, so the house edge is well under 0.5%. I estimate the average edge on craps players is at least ten times that, so I figure I’m getting a 90% comp right there
link to original post

This is the kind of house edge I work with. If the house edge against you is that low, then you have an excellent chance of getting comped to complete cover it, and then some, just in freeplay.

I'm going by my own experience. Much of this I give back in the way of tips. If I didn't tip, I probably wouldn't be over-comped like that. It depends on the casino, mind.

You do have to get a player's card. If you have no reason to keep your identity from the house, why not get one? I used to worry about privacy issues before I got one, but have found this to be a non-problem.

Quote: tuttigym

I would like you to tell us:
1. How much "free play" would a player receive per month from his favorite casino if his average play/month is $2,000-$4,000?
2. In order to receive the "big bucks" free play, what level of play is required?
3. There is a suggestion within this post that "free play" is basically a non-factor in gambling and that one might infer, to that end, that AP really does not exist with some very small exceptions. So why the chest beating and huffing and puffing about "Hey, I AM AN AP."?

link to original post

Tuttigym I understand your frustration. Some APs on many forums provide claims and reports of comps and offers without even naming the casinos or specifics. And they expect everyone else to believe them.

This has also frustrated me. By now you probably know I was in the TV news business before I went into advertising. Let me assure you that these claims without substantiation would not get on TV.

If you look at the AP stories that do make it in the media they are substantiated, and may involve court cases. They include the double up bug team, the MIT team, the big Atlantic City blackjack player.

The AP claims and reports that mostly show up on forums have as much chance of making the Main Street Media as a snowball has a chance of surviving at the corner of Flamingo and Las Vegas Boulevard at 2pm on August 15th.

You're not going to get proof here. It's a forum. Deal with it.

People are going to claim what they claim about big wins and big comps and big offers and big edges.

But you did ask some specific questions.

1. How much free play with a gambling budget of $4k per month? Obviously it depends on the casino. $4k per month might get you $75 of free play at Caesars Palace but it might get you $300 of free play at Suncoast Casino an off strip Boyd Property.

2. The same with your question about big bucks comps and offers. One size doesnt fit all.

Right now I'll tell you exactly what I'm getting with Chairman status with Station Casinos and I earned double the points needed for Chairman:

I get zero table game offers. I get $15 of free machine bets once a week. I have a Host and I complained. But I'll tell you what I do get and I'm happy about this: I get all the comped dinners I want in their restaurants. Either I get the comp in the craps pit or I phone my Host.

I also have gotten free hotel stays for friends and relatives who came into town and I even got a comped room for an ex wife who came to Vegas with her boyfriend to attend a weekend Bar Mitzvah event.

Even though I havent played at a Caesars property in four years -- and I was 7 Stars until four years ago -- I still get mailers for free hotel rooms but my free play offers are no more than $10 with a hotel stay.

That's ten dollars at Caesars Palace.

Back in the old days Caesars routinely gave me free play of $2500 per visit (once a month) and I had triple the points needed for Seven Stars.

Quote: billryan

He's right. AP is a myth that doesn't exist in his worldview. I'm not sure why anyone would waste their time trying to convince him otherwise.
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People can believe that AP is a myth if they really want to. If you go to BetRivers or PlaySugarhouse and are a new player, for example, I could see why someone thinking depositing $250, receiving $250 in bonus funds and only being required to make $500 in total bets would not put a person at an advantage with an expectation of profit. Obviously, right?

Not speaking of anyone in particular, but one thing that I have noticed on various forums from various AP detractors is that it seems that they want to discount AP because they lack either the knowledge, the discipline, or both, to gamble at least at a net advantage. Basically, what they are saying is, "Because I am a losing gambler, so must you all be losing gamblers."

Anyway, I'm not speaking about any specific person, but as you correctly point out---some people are worth helping and some people are not worth helping. There is sometimes confusion as to who is who when one party enters a conversation in good faith, but in some instances, it is evident when a person is not worth going out of your way for.

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

First off, let's make sure we are not mixing live table craps play with slots, for the part most part they are two entirely different animals.

I absolutely agree. My casino, during certain periods of day and time, provide "lucky seat" giveaways for which I have been a beneficiary ($500). That is a huge AP. Table games not so much maybe $25.

I am sure there are dozens of posts proclaiming that being an AP is the only way to beat the game or the casino otherwise, as some have stated, those who play, virtually anything, will lose. That is the "chest-beating" I see. IMO that is misleading nothing more.

tuttigym
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"That is a huge AP," and you are probably wrong. You couldn't just randomly pick a machine.

The first thing that you have to determine is your assumed equity in the drawing, which is to say that everyone who has a seat has an equal shot at being selected. If that is the case, then your EV from the drawing is the $500 divided by the number of people who are in the casino that also qualify for the drawing, whether it's having a card inserted into the machine, or whatever. If there are 100 total players in the casino who would qualify, and everyone is equally likely to be selected, then your EV just from the drawing is $5...which (again, just randomly picking a slot machine) is often going to be much less than your expected loss from the play.

Even if you didn't actually have to play, or alternatively, only had to take one spin...an expected value of $5 wouldn't even be worth showing up.

Of course, if you were also vulturing machines while you were there, then any added EV is good added EV.

You would also need to read the full terms of the promotion as this, "Equal chance," thing is really a best case scenario. With some promotions, you are required to earn a particular number of points in advance (the expected loss from earning the points can be estimated, or calculated exactly if you're doing it on VP), so then your equity is impacted that way, or sometimes, your number of entries in the drawing is based on how many points you earn in the given timeframe. With that, if you're not earning many points, then your cash equity in the drawing might be less than it otherwise might---but you have to incur expected loss (unless you are playing a machine in an advantageous state anyway) to even earn the points to improve your drawing equity.

Anyway, the, "Hot Seat," is not a good example of something that would generally put a person at an advantage by itself. One thing along those lines that was sometimes good was floor-wide must-hits (I don't know if anyone still does them, though) by which everyone with a players card active in the machine would get free play when the top or second highest must-hit number for the floor-wide went off. It's a low-level kind of bottom-feeder (even by my standards) type of play, but by having some idea how fast the floor-wide meters move you can get a decent idea of your hourly. I wouldn't ever go to a casino JUST for that reason, but it can be sometimes worth staying if it's close and you think it's going to hit within x amount of time where x is whatever amount of time you think is reasonable to expect to wait.

Quote: odiousgambit

you do know card counters in blackjack are unwelcome and why, just for an example?

Yes, I do.

Quote:

... and then what the casinos will do when they "find" them? The statement puzzles me.

tuttigym

Quote: odiuosgambit

link to original post

Usually they are 'trespassed' meaning they are booted and are told if they come back to the casino they'll be arrested for trespassing. But their rights can be severely abused sometimes. You'd need to look for "back-roomed" stories, some of them are on youtube. There are stories here, such as this link: https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/15767-my-first-backroom-treatment/

Thank you for that info. I had never heard that term used before. I can always count on you to enlighten me and expand my knowledge.

tuttigym

Quote: Dieter

There are very specific criteria a casino is looking for, like coin-in (points/tier credits earned) or hours on table multiplied by average wager.
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I am sure that you are correct. A previous post indicated that those criteria vary by casino. That is also true. It seems the majority of posters here play in Vegas. Their experiences with AP reflect the various marketing offers received. I have no argument or dispute with those examples.

Every month I receive multiple, really good offers of multiple free nights and food and slot/table play even though I may visit Biloxi, MS only 3 times a year. While many here might consider these offers of "free" $$ to be AP, for me they represent small perks of patronage to be used as entry wagers for my gaming. Therefore, the offers that go unused during the course of the year are not viewed by me as missed opportunities.

tuttigym

(Quote clipped, relevance)

Quote: AlanMendelson

1. How much free play with a gambling budget of $4k per month? Obviously it depends on the casino. $4k per month might get you $75 of free play at Caesars Palace but it might get you $300 of free play at Suncoast Casino an off strip Boyd Property.

2. The same with your question about big bucks comps and offers. One size doesnt fit all.

Right now I'll tell you exactly what I'm getting with Chairman status with Station Casinos and I earned double the points needed for Chairman:

I get zero table game offers. I get $15 of free machine bets once a week. I have a Host and I complained. But I'll tell you what I do get and I'm happy about this: I get all the comped dinners I want in their restaurants. Either I get the comp in the craps pit or I phone my Host.

I also have gotten free hotel stays for friends and relatives who came into town and I even got a comped room for an ex wife who came to Vegas with her boyfriend to attend a weekend Bar Mitzvah event.

Even though I havent played at a Caesars property in four years -- and I was 7 Stars until four years ago -- I still get mailers for free hotel rooms but my free play offers are no more than $10 with a hotel stay.

That's ten dollars at Caesars Palace.

Back in the old days Caesars routinely gave me free play of $2500 per visit (once a month) and I had triple the points needed for Seven Stars.
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1.) It depends on more than just the casino. If you play your 4k budget in one day, then you will likely generate a significant ADT if you do not play at the casino the rest of the month. However, if you have 4k to lose and broke it up until you lost $133/day, then your ADT would be much lower and your offers would likely suck, if they existed at all, despite the fact that you're willing to, 'Budget,' the same actual amount in cash.

On a slot that holds 10%, just for the sake of example...and running exactly to EV then you have 40k coin-in in one day or roughly $1330 coin-in per day for thirty days...that makes a huge difference when it comes to comps. Casino comp systems tend to assume that you are always going to be giving roughly the same amount of play as you did on the day(s) that led to your offers...or, if they don't assume that, it's still worth keeping the big players...so you don't want to send crappy offers to someone who does 40k coin-in in one day.

The more days of play you have, then the more the system knows about you, or the host, if someone is looking at you directly. You might think 40k EV is 40k EV, but there are some small costs (to the casino) just associated with you physically being there thirty days as opposed to one.

2.) Good answer. This one very much does depend on the casino. You might also be inclined to believe that casinos could be grouped to this extent based on market, or even parent company, but nope...it really does depend on the individual casino.

Quote: AxelWolf

It's fairly rare that I play for just comps(RFB), it would have to be something super juicy for me to go after comps, nowadays most of my comps end up expiring, so I don't feel like know enough about what kind of craps action it takes to get RFB. The last place I knew of that had some generous offers for not much play was at the SLS. That was definitely +EV in the form of all the free bets they would send you. They sent room and food offers as well. Usually, there's a delay 1-4 months before the offers start rolling in after you play.

Mr.Wolf: It is too bad you do not frequent Biloxi, MS. You would be a rock star and the comps would flow beyond your wildest dreams. The action and fun either rival or exceed that of Vegas. One stay and the offers roll in usually without any significant delay.

tuttigym

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: Ace2

[snip] I play only pass/DP with full odds, so the house edge is well under 0.5%. I estimate the average edge on craps players is at least ten times that, so I figure I’m getting a 90% comp right there

This is the kind of house edge I work with. If the house edge against you is that low, then you have an excellent chance of getting comped to complete cover it, and then some, just in freeplay.

Interesting. Are you saying that, for comp purposes, they apply an average house edge to all your bets regardless of what you normally bet on? If that’s true then comps for players like us would be much more valuable.

I’ve read that Blackjack can be a relatively good game for comps…as long as you play basic strategy since the HE is about 0.5% but they use a 2% rate for everyone (which is probably an accurate average). So it’s like you’re being rated on 4x your actual play

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: Dieter

There are very specific criteria a casino is looking for, like coin-in (points/tier credits earned) or hours on table multiplied by average wager.
link to original post

I am sure that you are correct. A previous post indicated that those criteria vary by casino. That is also true. It seems the majority of posters here play in Vegas. Their experiences with AP reflect the various marketing offers received. I have no argument or dispute with those examples.

Every month I receive multiple, really good offers of multiple free nights and food and slot/table play even though I may visit Biloxi, MS only 3 times a year. While many here might consider these offers of "free" $$ to be AP, for me they represent small perks of patronage to be used as entry wagers for my gaming. Therefore, the offers that go unused during the course of the year are not viewed by me as missed opportunities.

tuttigym
link to original post

Some of the offers stem from the fact that you're not using the previous offers. If you just used all of the offers and rolled out without giving any additional play, then you would soon stop getting offers.

It is possible to have perpetual cards at an advantage, which means you find a, "Sweet spot," and maintain that level of play, yet continue to have an expectation of profit. However, those opportunities are not as common and the expected percentage return is obviously not as good.

Is this February? Okay, between this and the previous post in this thread, that's all you're getting out of me, on direct, this month. See you in March.

What is a monthly budget of $4,000? Does that mean each month you start with a fresh $4,000 that can be lost in casino play?
Or does it mean that you will make about 400 $10 bets that month? If you are making a half dozen $10 bets each week, enjoy that ice cream bar on your birthday. If your budget is to lose $50,000 in a casino this year, you will see some great comps.
A joint downtown will treat the $50,000 a year loser better than the Mirage will.

If you do some research, it might be possible to play during hours that a casino promo gives you double or triple points for that time.
My old stomping grounds Emerald Island gave triple points most afternoons and would give 10X points a few overnights.
South Point used to have very generous comps and on the couple days a year that gave double points, you'd have pros like Bob Dancer setting up shop for marathon sessions.
In a lot of cases, you can be an AP simply by educating yourself on what days to play and which games. Frugal Gambling used to have a website that one could use when deciding which casino to play on any given day.
It was easier ten years ago when Stations published a monthly magazine that would contain hundreds of dollars worth of matchplays and bonus coupons. One could gain a substantial bankroll simply by picking up a few magazines and playing the coupons every day.
It's a bit harder these days but one thing hasn't changed. The ignorant and the uninformed continue to mock and deny the existence of such players. Boo hoo.

If only there was a way that someone could use unwanted offerings from casinos not close to their own residents. A network,so to speak, where people could exchange unwanted offers with other people who thought like them. Imagine....

Quote: Ace2

Interesting. Are you saying that, for comp purposes, they apply an average house edge to all your bets regardless of what you normally bet on? If that’s true then comps for players like us would be much more valuable.

I’ve read that Blackjack can be a relatively good game for comps…as long as you play basic strategy since the HE is about 0.5% but they use a 2% rate for everyone (which is probably an accurate average). So it’s like you’re being rated on 4x your actual play
link to original post

I don't know for sure how it is justified, but it seems to be a case in craps of getting rated for an average bet that includes free odds. Perhaps the theory is, if that is your average bet, then sometimes some of that goes to the middle table bets? Then, if you don't tip, it's "wait a minute he seems to never do middle table bets now that I think about it. " ... pure conjecture here

It is very easy to get overcomped when playing BJ. Casinos are getting more sophisticated about player tracking but it is still a game of cat and mouse. I think it was Kevin O'Leary who said "you don't bring a cat to a shark fight.

Quote: tuttigym

Quote: AxelWolf

It's fairly rare that I play for just comps(RFB), it would have to be something super juicy for me to go after comps, nowadays most of my comps end up expiring, so I don't feel like know enough about what kind of craps action it takes to get RFB. The last place I knew of that had some generous offers for not much play was at the SLS. That was definitely +EV in the form of all the free bets they would send you. They sent room and food offers as well. Usually, there's a delay 1-4 months before the offers start rolling in after you play.

Mr.Wolf: It is too bad you do not frequent Biloxi, MS. You would be a rock star and the comps would flow beyond your wildest dreams. The action and fun either rival or exceed that of Vegas. One stay and the offers roll in usually without any significant delay.

tuttigym
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I have been to Biloxi many times, I believe the first time I visited there was for the grand opening of the Beau Rivage and have been many times since spending a significant amount of time there .

I can't recall with a mail cycle is there, but I'm certain there's was at least a 2-weeks to 1-month delay.

Back when free play was the new trend, a casino in Biloxi was quite generous in sending you around a 5,000 in free play lump-some for about a hundred thousand coin-in on 9/6 jacks or better.

Quote: Ace2

Quote: odiousgambit

Quote: Ace2

[snip] I play only pass/DP with full odds, so the house edge is well under 0.5%. I estimate the average edge on craps players is at least ten times that, so I figure I’m getting a 90% comp right there

This is the kind of house edge I work with. If the house edge against you is that low, then you have an excellent chance of getting comped to complete cover it, and then some, just in freeplay.

Interesting. Are you saying that, for comp purposes, they apply an average house edge to all your bets regardless of what you normally bet on? If that’s true then comps for players like us would be much more valuable.

I’ve read that Blackjack can be a relatively good game for comps…as long as you play basic strategy since the HE is about 0.5% but they use a 2% rate for everyone (which is probably an accurate average). So it’s like you’re being rated on 4x your actual play
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depends on casino.
some casinos dont have fancy computer screens or sensors for tables.
just a swipe for players card.
for those tables, everyone gets the same house edge.

for tables where the pitboss can punch in what types of bets you're doing, or even better, there's a sensor for each possible bet, then everyone's rate is different.

ie: BJ with sensors
you also play the horrible sidebets

if it's a table that gives everyone the same house edge, then it's easy to calc what that rate is.
I'm going to do a Mis and be back at a later month on how. :)

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: tuttigym

I would like you to tell us:
1. How much "free play" would a player receive per month from his favorite casino if his average play/month is $2,000-$4,000?
2. In order to receive the "big bucks" free play, what level of play is required?
3. There is a suggestion within this post that "free play" is basically a non-factor in gambling and that one might infer, to that end, that AP really does not exist with some very small exceptions. So why the chest beating and huffing and puffing about "Hey, I AM AN AP."?

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Tuttigym I understand your frustration. Some APs on many forums provide claims and reports of comps and offers without even naming the casinos or specifics. And they expect everyone else to believe them.

This has also frustrated me. By now you probably know I was in the TV news business before I went into advertising. Let me assure you that these claims without substantiation would not get on TV.

If you look at the AP stories that do make it in the media they are substantiated, and may involve court cases. They include the double up bug team, the MIT team, the big Atlantic City blackjack player.

The AP claims and reports that mostly show up on forums have as much chance of making the Main Street Media as a snowball has a chance of surviving at the corner of Flamingo and Las Vegas Boulevard at 2pm on August 15th.

You're not going to get proof here. It's a forum. Deal with it.

People are going to claim what they claim about big wins and big comps and big offers and big edges.

Many of us who make money via Advantage play don't want media attention (I know that's a hard concept for you to grasp since your career is based on media attention)

I have been involved in plays that have gained media attention, I would rather not be named in such things or publicitytalk about them(perhaps occasionally I might). I just want things to be forgotten and move on to the next thing hoping the casinos forget and make the same mistakes again(that happens often)

I don't know about all these other claims you are talking about(give us some examples) but there's enough people in the gambling community that I have worked with that know there is truth to any claims I make(I don't think I have made too many strange claims or said anything that seems outrageous)

I speaking of outrageous claims, if we want to talk about unsubstantiated outrageous claims and what-not, we can bring back up 18 yo's, and 5 royals.

Gee AxeI I wasn't talking about you.

But since you brought it up I never shied away from discussing the 18 yos thrown in a row. It was my fault that I didn't get proof.

That's why when dice came to rest on top of each other three times at Red Rock I took photos, sent them to Wizard, along with the names of the boxmen and the exact times. This so Wizard could verify. I guess that worked because no one mentions those events anymore.

The 5 single line royals hit one night by my son? Well. I trusted what my son told me. Fathers do that. Later HE changed his story to five jackpots similar to the pays of five single line royals, two or three of which were single line royals. Lesson learned: kids exaggerate. Even when they're in their 30s kids exaggerate. (Gee, I wonder if forum members exaggerate too? Any posts on this forum seem exaggerated?)

But there's a difference in standards of media attention.

Frankly in mainstream media no one cares about gambling stories unless millions of dollars are involved.

Lottery winners, the MIT group, the Atlantic City blackjack player get their 15 minutes of fame.

Winning $50,000 in a weekend by a player doesnt make the 6 o'clock news unless they were followed home from the casino and robbed.

Thanks for posting Axel.

18 consecutive yo’s. About a 1 in 4 x 10^22 chance

Which is in the same probability ballpark as picking a perfect college basketball tournament bracket (assuming all random picks) or winning the Powerball jackpot three times in a row

Millions of people play those events every week/year and it would be big news if aforementioned scenarios ever happened. But don’t hold your breath because they won’t ever happen

Quote: Ace2

18 consecutive yo’s. About a 1 in 4 x 10^22 chance

Which is in the same probability ballpark as picking a perfect college basketball tournament bracket (assuming all random picks) or winning the Powerball jackpot three times in a row

Millions of people play those events every week/year and it would be big news if aforementioned scenarios ever happened. But don’t hold your breath because they won’t ever happen
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Big news? To whom? To gamblers, yes. To an assignment editor or producer of the 6 o'clock news the response would be "how many fire trucks showed up at the casino?"

At the time I worked for CBS. I witnessed a random thrower roll 18 yos in a row. And I didnt think it was anything big till I mentioned it on this forum.

Trust me on this: had I had known then what I know now I would have had the eye tape and every name and phone number.

But at the time it was just one yo after another. As I said before I didnt even bet a dollar. Nor did the shooter or his buddy.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ace2

18 consecutive yo’s. About a 1 in 4 x 10^22 chance

Which is in the same probability ballpark as picking a perfect college basketball tournament bracket (assuming all random picks) or winning the Powerball jackpot three times in a row

Millions of people play those events every week/year and it would be big news if aforementioned scenarios ever happened. But don’t hold your breath because they won’t ever happen
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Big news? To whom? To gamblers, yes. To an assignment editor or producer of the 6 o'clock news the response would be "how many fire trucks showed up at the casino?"

At the time I worked for CBS. I witnessed a random thrower roll 18 yos in a row. And I didnt think it was anything big till I mentioned it on this forum.

Trust me on this: had I had known then what I know now I would have had the eye tape and every name and phone number.

But at the time it was just one yo after another. As I said before I didnt even bet a dollar. Nor did the shooter or his buddy.
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I watch very little TV yet I’ve seen Powerball odds discussed on the news (when jackpot got large enough) and I’ve also seen perfect bracket odds discussed. They are both highly televised

You may have seen something but it wasn’t 18 consecutive yo’s

Quote: AlanMendelson

Gee AxeI I wasn't talking about you.

But since you brought it up I never shied away from discussing the 18 yos thrown in a row. It was my fault that I didn't get proof.

That's why when dice came to rest on top of each other three times at Red Rock I took photos, sent them to Wizard, along with the names of the boxmen and the exact times. This so Wizard could verify. I guess that worked because no one mentions those events anymore.

The 5 single line royals hit one night by my son? Well. I trusted what my son told me. Fathers do that. Later HE changed his story to five jackpots similar to the pays of five single line royals, two or three of which were single line royals. Lesson learned: kids exaggerate. Even when they're in their 30s kids exaggerate. (Gee, I wonder if forum members exaggerate too? Any posts on this forum seem exaggerated?)

But there's a difference in standards of media attention.

Frankly in mainstream media no one cares about gambling stories unless millions of dollars are involved.

Lottery winners, the MIT group, the Atlantic City blackjack player get their 15 minutes of fame.

Winning $50,000 in a weekend by a player doesnt make the 6 o'clock news unless they were followed home from the casino and robbed.

Thanks for posting Axel.
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Okay, my bad oh, it just seemed that way since I was the one communicating with tuttigym when you posted that... and in the past, you have had something similar to me.

Either way, would you mind linking up or posting up some examples? Perhaps we can get to the bottom of it and see what kind of proof or nonproof there is to whatever claim Advantage Players might be making.

I guess you haven't been watching the news, but they are announcing amounts being won for much less than 50k. I didn't pay attention to what channel it was or what the segments called, I just thought it was odd they were doing that.

Quote: AxelWolf

I have been to Biloxi many times, I believe the first time I visited there was for the grand opening of the Beau Rivage and have been many times since spending a significant amount of time there .

I was there for that. They had Taylor Dane perform in the lounge on opening night and that was the best musical show that I have experienced. My luggage got lost on that trip so I lived out of the Beau Rivage gift shop everyday for clothing options. My luggage and golf clubs showed up on checkout day.

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

I have been to Biloxi many times, I believe the first time I visited there was for the grand opening of the Beau Rivage and have been many times since spending a significant amount of time there .

I was there for that. They had Taylor Dane perform in the lounge on opening night and that was the best musical show that I have experienced. My luggage got lost on that trip so I lived out of the Beau Rivage gift shop everyday for clothing options. My luggage and golf clubs showed up on checkout day.
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Biloxi is my favorite gambling destination. I was fortunate to be comped on charter flights out of Atlanta for about two years. Now I have to drive as those flights do not exist anymore. It is about 6-7 hours from my home. I am going next month to access my generous comps. Should be fun and hopefully profitable. I am a +PV** player.

tuttigym

**Probability Variable

Axelwolf here in Vegas I see lots of social media posts for casino winners of as little as $40,000. This is because its social media and all of the casinos have social media promoters now who constantly post photos and links. Social media is not only free to use but there's no "editorial process." In other words, there is no one to say "this is not newsworthy."

Lottery news is always newsworthy because so much money is involved.

By the way, SPORTS REPORTING has always been geared to gambling. Even before legalized sports betting, sports reporting always included the pays on horse races. When I was 14 years old and I had my first radio gig I read the daily double and race pays from the tracks around New York City. This was in 1966. Why report the race payoffs on radio? For the bookies!

Quote: AlanMendelson

Axelwolf here in Vegas I see lots of social media posts for casino winners of as little as $40,000. This is because its social media and all of the casinos have social media promoters now who constantly post photos and links. Social media is not only free to use but there's no "editorial process." In other words, there is no one to say "this is not newsworthy."

Lottery news is always newsworthy because so much money is involved.

By the way, SPORTS REPORTING has always been geared to gambling. Even before legalized sports betting, sports reporting always included the pays on horse races. When I was 14 years old and I had my first radio gig I read the daily double and race pays from the tracks around New York City. This was in 1966. Why report the race payoffs on radio? For the bookies!
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I'm talking about on the 5 or 6 o'clock news where they are announcing various winners at various casinos on various games. Again, I didn't pay all that much attention, I just happened to catch it on the TV as I was looking for my keys on the way out the door. I can't even be certain of the amounts they were talking about it just didn't seem that high.

Axelwolf.... On Vegas TV news?

That's pretty low if the news is talking about slot winners on the evening news.

But here in Vegas I've seen news anchors participate in paid segments for health care providers giving Medicare information. In fact one Medicare provider actually had a paid segment on the news here in Vegas on Channel 8 with a news anchor participating.

So nothing surprises me about Vegas TV.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Axelwolf.... On Vegas TV news?



]

Yes.

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: AlanMendelson

Axelwolf.... On Vegas TV news?



]

Yes.
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That's pretty low... as I said before.

Vegas is, after all, a small TV market with people on their way moving up... or moving down.

And the casino ad $$$ pull strings.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: AlanMendelson

Axelwolf.... On Vegas TV news?



]

Yes.
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That's pretty low... as I said before.

Vegas is, after all, a small TV market with people on their way moving up... or moving down.

And the casino ad $$$ pull strings.
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I thought it was at least tacky and I guess it wouldn't be too good for people who have a gambling addiction to now see these types of things on the news all the time(no place is safe). I guess it is Las Vegas, so it would make sense.