Yelruh
Yelruh
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January 10th, 2018 at 10:23:24 PM permalink
Recently, I've noticed that Caesers properties seem to be moving away from the Fire Bet as a craps side bet.

This doesn't really make sense, as I've seen quite a few tables where the felt has been replaced to have no side bet whatsoever (just plain craps. Who'd have thought!)

Did the math work out wrong and was the Fire Bet really in the player's favor? Compared with other side bets (all tall/small, repeater, etc) the Fire Bet is simple for the crew to manage, and the numbers are strongly in favor of the house. Unless it's a licensing thing, I can't fathom why CET seems to be stripping it from all their tables.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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January 10th, 2018 at 11:40:31 PM permalink
Quote: Yelruh

Recently, I've noticed that Caesers properties seem to be moving away from the Fire Bet as a craps side bet.

This doesn't really make sense, as I've seen quite a few tables where the felt has been replaced to have no side bet whatsoever (just plain craps. Who'd have thought!)

Did the math work out wrong and was the Fire Bet really in the player's favor? Compared with other side bets (all tall/small, repeater, etc) the Fire Bet is simple for the crew to manage, and the numbers are strongly in favor of the house. Unless it's a licensing thing, I can't fathom why CET seems to be stripping it from all their tables.



I would guess they are letting the license run out, most likely because the bet is not getting enough action to justify paying the royalty (the usual reason things get removed). SHFL charges per table, per month, whether the table is open or not. Maybe it's only coming off of SOME tables to cut costs.

Could be something else, like they're transitioning to ATS or another bet, or getting complaints or costly dealer errors. Could be just bad (for them) variance and it's too volatile. But the math is the math.
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
tringlomane
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January 10th, 2018 at 11:49:47 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

I would guess they are letting the license run out, most likely because the bet is not getting enough action to justify paying the royalty (the usual reason things get removed). SHFL charges per table, per month, whether the table is open or not. Maybe it's only coming off of SOME tables to cut costs.

Could be something else, like they're transitioning to ATS or another bet, or getting complaints or costly dealer errors. Could be just bad (for them) variance and it's too volatile. But the math is the math.



20% edges aren't that volatile. But 20% edges from the modified all/tall/small is even less volatile! Also players probably like it more because they feel they "win" more often! So the casino loves the modified A/T/S!
RisingDough
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January 11th, 2018 at 12:22:40 AM permalink
Someone told me that the casinos don't particularly like the fire bet and all tall, all small feature bets because they get many players who will just grind the minimums on that stuff and not bet other action and they are taking up room at the table preventing more lucrative degenerates from playing that will bet the whole layout.
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beachbumbabs
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January 11th, 2018 at 12:38:30 AM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

20% edges aren't that volatile. But 20% edges from the modified all/tall/small is even less volatile! Also players probably like it more because they feel they "win" more often! So the casino loves the modified A/T/S!



I was thinking of a specific example. Harrah's KC had a game ,Paigow Mania, which had a top payout (think it was 1000:1) on Five Aces for the sidebet. Can't remember what the odds are, but I've never had that hand in 25 years playing PGP, and never seen it, though of course people do get it.

HKC had that hand hit twice in 7 days in the approx 3 months they had it. Bad variance for them, is all, but no. They removed the game.

Since 6 pays something like that, I thought it possible they had a run of 5s and 6s pay off, and didn't like the losses for that month or period.
"If the house lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game."
DJTeddyBear
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January 11th, 2018 at 6:34:12 AM permalink
The fire bet used to be popular because it was the only side bet available. Now, itís being removed from plenty of casinos, not just CET properties.


I had heard that the real problem is that the table screeches to a halt when the six points are hit. Think about it. First surveillance has to check the tape, then the cage has to prepare a whole bunch of tax forms.

Plus that delay gives the players time to assume that the table has cooled off, so they take the money and run.
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Yelruh
Yelruh
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January 11th, 2018 at 8:31:58 AM permalink
The whole "table grinds to a halt" makes sense. I think it was 30+ minutes the one time I rolled it.

I just see most of the other side bets as causing massive headaches for the dealers - the standard ATS layout is small, and if many players are playing, it really bogs down every time a 7 comes up, even in the come out
ahiromu
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January 11th, 2018 at 9:23:44 AM permalink
There's definitely merit to what's been said. At least at Paris, the fire bet has been replaced by the repeaters. I didn't get the switch up until my last trip, then it all made sense to me. People love chasing a high payout, especially the 2,3,11,12 because you only need 2-3 hits. And you have ten separate bets to make as well. That person that used to drop $10 on the firebet will now drop $10-20 spread on all the repeaters, then lose on a seven during the come out. Definitely more resolutions, and in my experience, more money bet per round.

Yes, their contract may have run out. Yes, everything shut down when they had to pay people. But, in the end, their overall drop (and therefore take) for this side bet is much higher than the firebet could ever offer.
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Steverinos
Steverinos
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January 11th, 2018 at 10:29:44 AM permalink
I miss the fire bet. I'm a pass line come bettor. The fire was the only fun side bet I'd do. Never hit the 6 but have hit 5 a couple times.

A lot of people don't think dice influence is possible. I had spent time reading about it, bought a few books, and thought about actually trying it. I'd spent some time on Golden Touch Craps videos, even talking to Dom over the phone one time as I contemplated buying a training setup. I was always skeptical, until...

It was the last night of a Vegas trip. My buddy and I were in Paris, about 2am, attempting to pull an all-nighter before our flights left in the morning. We were at a table, about 5 of us. We were doing $5 fire bets. A guy walks up and asks to buy my fire bet from me for $50. I can't remember if we were on a 2 or 3 point, but I just remember turning him down. We proceeded on the roll and he was kind of loud. Once we sevened out, the tabled behind us was empty and we decided to move to get away from him.

About ten minutes later he joins us at the table. We're thinking, "great". It's his turn to roll, and the pit boss comes over to him and kind of whispers in his ear, "better hit the back wall". I thought that was interesting. He picks up the dice on his turn and immediately just throws them down there. Whatever. His next roll, however, didn't look like his last. This guy was setting the dice, from the back position! He proceeded to hit a ton of numbers, sometimes not hitting the back wall, and immediately yelling "I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry" to the boss, lol. The pit boss looked visibly upset and frustrated.

The guy made a few comments that cracked me up. I was in position one to the left of stick where dice setters usually throw from. He told me, "that's my spot. If I'm there, they lose. If I'm here, they have a chance." lol "You guys don't know how rare this is" lol. He was loud, boisterous, and really drawing a lot of attention to himself. It was 3am in Paris on a Wednesday or something, there wasn't a ton of people in there, but we had some observers. We bet pass and come bet with a progression after we hit a few numbers. And we were cleaning up having our best session of the trip by far. He hit the 5 points locking up $1,250 and our last number was the 6. He rolls it! If he hits the 6, it's 5 grand and easily the best craps session I've ever had. I thought for SURE he was going to throw it. He didn't. He sevened out. I thought for sure it was coming!

A couple of us rolled and it his turn again and he immediately sevened out. He cashed, we cashed, we all cashed, lol, and that was it.

I've been playing craps for 20 years and have seen others attempt to set, but this was the first time I legitimately became a believer. The way he was acting, the comments he was making, and how concerned and frustrated the pit boss was with the situation led me to believe that it's definitely a thing. I think it takes thousands of hours of practice to acquire, but it's possible.

Miss the fire bet.
tringlomane
tringlomane
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January 11th, 2018 at 10:37:20 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

The fire bet used to be popular because it was the only side bet available. Now, itís being removed from plenty of casinos, not just CET properties.


I had heard that the real problem is that the table screeches to a halt when the six points are hit. Think about it. First surveillance has to check the tape, then the cage has to prepare a whole bunch of tax forms.

Plus that delay gives the players time to assume that the table has cooled off, so they take the money and run.



Yeah that's another really good point. No tax forms needed for the "all" hitting.

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