CHARTING A TABLE
Quote: dicesitterMath
You are 100% incorrect in your analysis.
The biggest problem you have is you don't understand the game of craps or the dice, You looking for
all the wrong things.
You have all these so-called indicators a player has to meet before "you" will admit that a player
can have some influence on winning or losing..... except......you cant find any!!!!!
That should tell you something.
I have to give you credit in one regard, your nonsense did make me look further into what I was
doing> Now I was honest in that I play to win, and the size of the win is not all that important,
however I have lost a good deal in the past and now that I have got this figured out there is
no reason not to get some of it back. So I am working with an expert in roll analysis
and dice probability to take advantage of my roll, because it wont last forever at my age.
He has opened my eyes to a number of things....
I appreciate that, even though you have gone out of your way to insult everything I have done. Because of
that I have no use for you.....period, you cant beat me on the table and you know it, so your
ducking the bet. We all have to understand our limitations.
You forced me to look at one of mine and I will be better for that, you still don't think you have any
so you will never learn.
dicesetter
how does one understand the dice???????
Then do a correct one. Post it here, using numbers, not blustery rhetoric. You said your SRR was 11. First, I don't think you're calculating SRR correctly -- it looks like you're ignoring natural 7s. Second, it doesn't matter what your SRR was over the past 10 or 100 rolls because the variance is too large to be useful. Example:Quote: dicesitterYou are 100% incorrect in your analysis.
You shoot for 8 hands over 2 hours at a half-full table, a total of 80 rolls. Slightly longer hands than average. And here's a hint: your SRR is not 1:10 just because you had 8 hands in 80 rolls. If you rolled 13 7s in those 80 rolls, you'd calculate 13/80 and get 1:6.15. If you rolled one extra 7 instead of a 9, that'd be 14/80 for an SRR of 1:5.71.
That's a big relative difference in the ratio, but it's literally one extra seven in two hours of playing. That just doesn't give you any predictive value for what might occur over the next two hours or two weeks. The problem is, you think you can make predictions using even smaller quantities of data. It's just not valid reasoning. You're varying your bets based on the SRR that you calculate over just a few hands because you think it indicates whether your "throw is working" but that's an improper conclusion to reach.
You've spent eight years throwing the dice and you haven't learned how to analyze your rolls by now? What have you been doing?Quote:So I am working with an expert in roll analysis and dice probability to take advantage of my roll, because it wont last forever at my age.
What I said was that you and your carefully practiced shooting wouldn't roll longer craps hands than a random shooter over half the time. Do you still think you can or did someone wise you up?Quote: dicesitterHis is ducking the bet. He said he can beat me, he cant.....
If you still think you're the hootinest, tootinest, shootinest, bob-tailed wildcat in the West and the fastest gun north, south, east, aaaaaand west of the Pecos, then get on up to Vegas and prove it. I won't hear any more of this lily-livered, yellow-bellied, white-hearted, weak-kneed, spineless, gutless nonsense about sneaking off to some dark corner to settle a shootout in private. I'm calling you out, pardner.
Draw!
Edit: if this ever does happen, I think everyone needs to wear cowboy hats. It's not much of a First Annual WoV Shootout if everyone's in jeans and ballcaps.
Quote: CalderWho?
Bob Singer
I appreciate the invitation. I have no reason to think you are not all fun to be around. But I am not
part of this board. No one believes anything like I do. No one works on the same things I do.
If your an elk hunter you don't spend an entire trip and weekend at a hog hunting convention.
The real question is what is your part in this, I understand Math not wanting the one on one
contest because he cant make a joke out of it.... but what do you care???????
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterI am not part of this board. No one believes anything like I do. No one works on the same things I do...If your an elk hunter you don't spend an entire trip and weekend at a hog hunting convention.
So riddle me this, dicesitter: why then do you post your dice setting screeds here, where at least nine out of ten regulars think that your unscientific, anecdotal braggadocio dice setting posts are time wasting, superstitious nonsense?
You rarely get a positive reply to your posts: usually just flame and incredulity.
Quote: dicesitterAxel
I appreciate the invitation. I have no reason to think you are not all fun to be around. But I am not
part of this board. No one believes anything like I do. No one works on the same things I do.
If your an elk hunter you don't spend an entire trip and weekend at a hog hunting convention.
The real question is what is your part in this, I understand Math not wanting the one on one
contest because he cant make a joke out of it.... but what do you care???????
dicesetter
ds, I wouldnt feel that way if i was you....I'm a dealer and have been accused of being varmenti by one guy here and mad prof by another guy here (who i regularly question his brain power)...meanwhile I went to one of the meetings here in niagara falls and the guys I met were all solid. Everybody just has an interest in gaming and once together they seem cool.
What, no boots? They're the best for stomping the floor.Quote: MathExtremistEdit: if this ever does happen, I think everyone needs to wear cowboy hats. It's not much of a First Annual WoV Shootout if everyone's in jeans and ballcaps.
that's a good question. But to be honest its fun because you don't put any effort
in this, your not supposed to know anything. You don't think I do either so its
ok. I have less patience for people that put a lot of effort in this, charge for
classes etc and still get it wrong.
What I cant understand about this site is this statement by Math
"And why don't you believe the experts on this very forum when they explain things correctly? You do realize there are math professors and professional casino mathematicians here, right?"
This baffles the hell out of me. If Math is correct and all these math guys and professional casino math guys are here, then they have already
reviewed every possible betting method known to man and found no one can beat the table....if that were not true, the casino would not put
$30,000 or more on the average table and say come and get it. So they and you have agreed you cant beat the table betting, that means if
there is a way it would have to be shooter influence. Now that may or may not be true, but that is all there is left....
And this, a so called craps forum does not want to talk about it.....
And you call me crazy !!!!
dicesetter
I understand you don't want a bunch of rabble-rousers hanging about who's only intentions are to make it a Joke. However I think 4 respectful people(you choose) isn't too much to ask.Quote: dicesitterAxel
I appreciate the invitation. I have no reason to think you are not all fun to be around. But I am not
part of this board. No one believes anything like I do. No one works on the same things I do.
If your an elk hunter you don't spend an entire trip and weekend at a hog hunting convention.
The real question is what is your part in this, I understand Math not wanting the one on one
contest because he cant make a joke out of it.... but what do you care???????
dicesetter
I honestly think Mike would be interested I even know a forum member who believes there's some validity to DI.
I'm game for anything if you two can set it up, even if in private, I'll come as long as I'm available.
For some reason I don't think you actually understand the bet?
What do you say the bet is? Is this now not a wager that DS can better ME, in a contest of twenty rolls each?Quote: AxelWolfFor some reason I don't think you actually understand the bet?
At a casino quality table with fair dice and witnessed by respected members?
Your right I don't understand the bet why don't you enlighten me???
dicesetter
Wife informed me we are now on a chicken noodle soup diet until she gets back from Laughlin.
See that's what happens when your a nice guy and let the wife take a girl trip. you still pay
for it.
I will be heading to Indiana soon for a weekend session for that shot I have
been working on. It is much better, maybe 60% good rolls, but still not where I want it.
the trouble is there is no one else in Wisconsin that uses that type of shot so I cant get
any help here. Hard to improve on your own, you cant see the release angle etc.
Maybe my wife will save so much on soup she can make me a loan.
dicesetter
Are you offering ME an unambiguous bet about who gets the better rolls on a professional table with fair dice and an agreeable number of honest witnesses or is this just going to be banter that escalates until someone gets banned again?Quote: dicesitterAxel
Your right I don't understand the bet why don't you enlighten me???
dicesetter
I offered to bet Axel ten dollars that if you said you would show, you would make an acceptable attempt to do so, and I know you to be generally honest.
I also would have bet up to twenty dollars that you would win the competition, when it appeared like it was close to a 50/50 chance, for fun, not because of a firm belief in di.
I said this the other day:
Quote:FWIW, until recently I hadn't seen anything that looked like an insult from either of you, but it's starting to build. I think it's a regional language difference in communication , and once someone takes umbrage, it escalates and the whole thing goes to hell.
You are both good guys, I hope it de-escalates before someone loses an eye. Everybody's talking and no ones listening.
It started escalating, nothing is being understood [at least by me] more than in the beginning, and for my personal tastes the jibes have went beyond dares and are bumping up against the line of demarcation where it trespasses into insult.
We disagreed a couple years ago about this. I think that if someone had this ability to DI and showed it to the world, that the how, would be closed almost immediately. You thought it might help get more people playing? I still think what I thought, and I know others, in "the dice community" have disagreed with you as well. You are going to do what you are going to do, regardless. Do you really believe that if this could be done, that casinos are just going to accept this, I don't. They would do just what they did after Thorp wrote "Beat the dealer" in bj.
There has to be some DI out there after the thousands that have apparently taken dice tossing classes who's ego would have overridden there good sense,,, just the way of the world.
If I had a casino, I would be running these dice classes every week, for free, encouraging dice pros to beat the house. If I ran a class, I would be able to demonstrate, that it could be done. Of the hundreds of supposedly di shots video'd that have been posted by Rick, not one shot ever, has shown influence. I will bet on you or with you, but I'm not coming to Vegas.
What do you want to come of all these posts about this contest? Do you wish to hammer out terms, or drop it. It's not hard to do. Bets get made here all the time, this is the most respectable gambling site on the web. If Axel offers a bet, terms are hammered out, and waiting for resolution and settlement begins, easy peasy. If someone challenges Wizard he is usually back within a day stating his terms and how much action he will take, boom, done. Taunting and badgering gnaws on me, do it or don't, but I for one am losing interest.
And my admiration goes out to Axel for trying to orchestrate this contest.
I didn't respond at the time, but yes I did think there was possibility of this competition happening somewhere besides a casino.Quote: MathExtremistA derivative bet? I like it. Unfortunately, I'd have to agree with you on the "no," especially after dicesitter just shut down the possibility of meeting in a casino to toss dice. Seriously, did anyone else here think that when I suggested that we shoot dice, I wasn't talking about a casino in Vegas? Was I unclear about that?
It seems that he has mentioned tables, and that you too have mentioned you knew where there were tables and at one time you had even generously offered Ahighs table.
I can understand him not wanting a circus event. If he indeed has the keys to the vault, why would he show anyone, that part I don't get. But assuming he did, it would be similar to Axel showing the camera with ten people cheering , his latest greatest AP. He wouldn't, and no one would expect him to.
There are no keys to the vault, I know you understand that. NO throw is that good, no set is
good enough to over come different dice, day in and day out..
But if your throw is consistently enough, and you pay attention, and adjust sets to what
your throw is doing, I think most times you can get paid on more rolls than others at
the table. Proper betting is what makes you money....
We have played and we have won and lost, and most times our outcomes
were better than others at the table. But not because we had a
perfect roll.
Other than the bet, I have no chance of winning. There is no gain
in beating some one that says they are no good.. Math said it best
for these guys... there is no reason to go to the table unless you
have a bunch of guys drinking, shouting and having a good time.
We can even wear a cowboy hat or two and even a clown costume.
that's not how I play the game.
dicesetter
last nights practice rolls. I had no sevens or craps on the come out
2/6 2-6 3-6 2-2 3-1 4-1 3-1 1-4 2-4
1/3 2-5 5-4 3-4 5-5 3-6 1-4 5-5 2-3
1/6 6-1 2-4 4-5 6-5 5-3 2-2
1-2 1-6 1-1 5-6 3-3 6-3
6-5 2-4 6-1 6-5 4-2
1-3 4-4 2-6 6-4
5-4 4-2 1-1 5-5
5-3 5-1 6-5 4-5
2-1 5-3 1-2 6-3
3-2 4-3 5-4 5-4
6-6 3-1 6-3
6-5 5-2 6-4
1-3 6-1
5-4
2-2
3-1
2-6
5-1
3-5
3-1
6-3
4-5
5-4
6-1
Math how would you calculate the SRR not the sevens ratio
dicesetter
That's the crux of our disagreement. You say your throwing will outperform a random shooter. I say otherwise.Quote: dicesitterBut if your throw is consistently enough, and you pay attention, and adjust sets to what
your throw is doing, I think most times you can get paid on more rolls than others at
the table.
You also complain that nobody believes what you're working on, that nobody respects it. I say you haven't ever explained it. Nobody even understands what you're "working on" because you stubbornly refuse to provide sufficient details. The few times anyone has been able to squeeze information out of you, that information has been both scant and contradictory. Your stories never add up to a plausible, consistent narrative. You spend eight years practicing, you can tell when your "shot is working," you know which sets to use on which tables, you think avoiding the alligator bumps gives you the edge, you think even your wife and any 10-year-old can avoid the bumps, and despite all that you don't know your edge, you still need to work with a "dice expert" on roll analysis, and you're not fabulously wealthy from your skill at beating the casino. None of it adds up.
The bottom line is that you've claimed your years of practice have given you the ability to control the dice enough to throw longer hands than a random shooter. I don't think so, and I challenged you to prove it in public. 10 or 20 hands each (your pick), counting the number of rolls from the first come-out to seven-out, comparing each of yours to a corresponding hand from the random shooter. If your hand has more rolls, you get a point. If you get a point on more than half of the hands, you win the challenge. It's simple.
If you want me to be the random shooter, you'll meet me in Vegas and prove your skill in the only place that skill is relevant: at a craps table operated by a casino.
If you want someone else to be the random shooter, you can negotiate with them where to meet -- a private table, a dark alley with a cardboard box, your hotel room, the back of your van, etc. But count me out -- I'm not going to invest the time in someone who makes bold anonymous Internet claims but won't show his face in public to back them up. If you don't have enough confidence in your own claimed casino-beating skills to subject them to public scrutiny (aka "peer review") then you shouldn't be making the boasts in the first place. Especially if you're afraid to prove it where it matters, at a casino's craps table. If you're worried that the casinos will learn of your secret techniques and change the game rules, don't be. That's already happened, and it wasn't you that caused the rule changes.
If you don't want to meet anyone in person at all, just post an unedited video of your 10 or 20 hands. I'll post a spreadsheet that randomly generates roll totals and you can see how your alleged skill won't even be able to throw longer hands than a computerized RNG.
And finally, if you've decided accepting this whole challenge was a bad idea, now's the time to back out. But don't even think of accusing me of backing away from anything, I'm not the one with anything to prove. I freely admit I'm a random shooter. I think we both are.
If you think you're not, prove it.
It sure looks like you did. Try posting the rolls in an understandable format where anyone can see at a glance which roll came after which other roll. One per line, if need be, but otherwise comma separated.Quote: dicesitterBy the way Math just so we are fairly clear in what we are looking at.
last nights practice rolls. I had no sevens or craps on the come out
Quote: dicesitter
Math how would you calculate the SRR not the sevens ratio
dicesetter
S = sevens R = rolls R = ratio
Better expressed, to keep ME happy as RSR.
What you are asking makes no sense.
Unfortunately this is all that really happens... http://cdn.skim.gs/image/upload/v1456338375/msi/isolated-iou-piggy-bank_eoh2sl.jpg
Why is it that all the "good DI's" are not in it for the money?
I am sorry about the numbers I posted, that is not the way I posted them. but
is the way they showed up.. I will repost the numbers in the way they
appeared in the hands
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterMath
I am sorry about the numbers I posted, that is not the way I posted them. but
is the way they showed up.. I will repost the numbers in the way they
appeared in the hands
dicesetter
I'll help with that. Hope I didn't make any errors.
2-6 1-3 1-6
2-6 2-5
3-6 5-4
6-1
1-2
6-5
1-3 5-4 5-3 2-1 3-2 6-6 6-5 1-3 5-4 2-2
3-1 2-6 5-1 3-5 3-1
6-3 4-5
5-4 6-1
2-2 3-4
3-1 5-5 2-4 1-6
4-1 3-6 4-5 1-1 2-4 4-4 4-2 5-1 5-3 4-3
3-1 1-4 6-5 5-6 6-1
1-4 5-5 5-3 3-3 6-5 2-6 1-1 6-5 1-2 5-4 3-1 5-2
2-4 2-3 2-2 6-3 4-2
6-4 5-5
4-5 6-3
5-4 6-3
6-4 6-1
I am only doing this to give Math the opportunity to tell all what the SRR for this
session. Apparently he does not think anyone can count, so being the expert he is
I thought we could use the help. Just make it a tad easier, there were no 7's or craps
numbers on any of the come out rolls.
hands shot
2-6 2-5
2-6 1-3 1-6
3-6, 5-4,6-1, 1-2, 6-5, 1-3, 5-4, 5-3, 2-1, 3-2, 6-6, 1-3,5-4, 2-2, 3-1
2-6,5-1,3-5,3-1,6-3,, 4-5,5-4,6-1
2-2, 3-4
3-1,5-5, 2-4,1-6
4-1, 3-6,4-5,1-1.2-4,4-4,4-2,5-1,5-3,4-3
3-1, 1-4,6-5,5-6,6-1
1-4,5-5,5-3,3-3,6-5,2-6,1-1,6-5,1-2,5-4,3-1, 6-3 6-1
4-2, 3-2, 2-2, 6-4,1-1,5-4,4-2,5-5,4-6,6-3, 5-4. 5-4, 5-4, 4-3
76 rolls, 9 hands
Math do you think you can determine what the SRR is for this session.
dicesetter
I cant accuse you of backing out of something you never agreed to do.
I knew you wont not because of what you said, you wanted it to be a party.
I might add, There is no trouble finding a table in vegas, for 2 hours....
But that's not what you wanted.. As long as you don't play against me you can
go on with your nonsense like this "If you don't want to meet anyone in person at all, just post an unedited video of your 10 or 20 hands. I'll post a spreadsheet that randomly generates roll totals and you can see how your alleged skill won't even be able to throw longer hands than a computerized RNG." You are so afraid to
post any data you yourself produce. If you post your data and I post mine and I win you cant go on with this nonsense....but as long as you never try, than all the data
I post is data you can find fault with. Like I said, it was you that said you can beat me, I think you even said backwards over your shoulder, now your even afraid
to just throw 20 hands and post them on here. I am beginning to think you don't even have a craps table.
dicesetter
He thinks you can't beat him with a quantifiable edge.
I am NOT surprised that you do not understand the difference.
Keep practicing rolling dem bones, dice sitter: I know it's real important to you.
Yes it was, and stop being so brusque to people who are trying to help you. Miplet spent his time freely trying to clarify your incomprehensible blather. If you're going to take that tone with everyone who's trying to converse with you, perhaps you're better off not posting at all.Quote: dicesitterSorry that's not even close
I think most people can count, especially here, but I also think your'e mistaken about your results. There were indeed 7s or craps numbers on the come out rolls. If you look at your 3rd hand, the 3rd and 4th rolls were come out 7 and craps 3, respectively, followed by 11 and then point of 4.Quote:I am only doing this to give Math the opportunity to tell all what the SRR for this
session. Apparently he does not think anyone can count, so being the expert he is
I thought we could use the help. Just make it a tad easier, there were no 7's or craps
numbers on any of the come out rolls.
Quote: 3rd hand excerpt:3-6, 5-4,6-1, 1-2, 6-5, 1-3, ...
And you also cut off your last hand because you weren't done shooting:
In order, that'sQuote:4-2, 3-2, 2-2, 6-4,1-1,5-4,4-2,5-5,4-6,6-3, 5-4. 5-4, 5-4, 4-3
come out 6, 5 intervening rolls, winner 6
come out 10, winner 10
come out 9, winner 9
come out 9, winner 9
come out winner 7, still shooting. That hand wasn't finished.
Based on the hands you actually completed, your SRR was 9:62 or 1:6.89. Based on all rolls, it was 10:74 or 1:7.4.
There are two important failures in your methods:
One is that your recordkeeping is inaccurate. Garbage in, garbage out.
Two is that your short-term SRR fluctuates wildly and should not be used to predict anything. But you're making decisions on what the dice did over the past 20 rolls or less.
That's precisely what you did:Quote: dicesitterMath
I cant accuse you of backing out of something you never agreed to do.
How do you justify this shamefully dishonest reply?Quote: dicesitter, April 7, 2016His is ducking the bet. He said he can beat me, he cant
Why on earth would I have a craps table? That's just asinine. If I want to play craps, I don't do it in my basement, I go to a casino where real gambling is involved. If I want to simulate random rolling, I don't need a table either -- I'll do millions of RNG pulls with my computer.Quote:You are so afraid to post any data you yourself produce. If you post your data and I post mine and I win you cant go on with this nonsense....but as long as you never try, than all the data I post is data you can find fault with. Like I said, it was you that said you can beat me, I think you even said backwards over your shoulder, now your even afraid to just throw 20 hands and post them on here. I am beginning to think you don't even have a craps table.
You're the only one here pretending to have control over the dice or wasting the time practicing. All I have to do is hit F9 on a spreadsheet and I can produce as much data as you want. My RNG is simply "=RANDBETWEEN(1,6)+RANDBETWEEN(1,6)"
You want some random data? Here's 10 hands that I just produced within the past 5 minutes using a spreadsheet:
11
10
8
8
8
8
8
5
10
5
2
8
7
10
10
4
10
8
8
8
3
6
7
6
7
8
7
8
6
9
3
6
12
11
5
10
2
9
7
6
4
5
4
6
8
9
9
7
5
8
8
8
7
10
5
4
8
11
12
7
5
6
6
7
4
10
7
That's 10 hands in 68 rolls, significantly under the expected 85. But even based on those random rolls, you've lost the challenge. Based on the only 8 hands that you completed, your practice hands only exceeded these randomly-generated hands 3 out of 8 times. You lose. Pay up.
For the record, lest you accuse me of cherry picking, I skipped past an earlier set of rolls that had a 57-length hand and 160 total rolls.
WTF ARE YOU GUYS NOT BETTING MORE?
The only time a DI claims they have losing sessions or a bad SRR is when you ask them why they are betting so small or how come they are not getting filthy rich.
Suddenly it's a different story how it doesn't work that way..... bla bla bla.
Don't like variance ? I don't love it myself. ME explained the a way to cut down the variance why not listen to him and actually make some money?
Maybe that's why dicesitter doesn't want to show up in public -- because he knows his dice control doesn't work in an actual casino. Perhaps he does have skill but only on a practice table where no money is at stake.Quote: AxelWolfThe only time a DI claims they have losing sessions or a bad SRR is when you ask them why they are betting so small or how come they are not getting filthy rich.
Suddenly it's a different story how it doesn't work that way..... bla bla bla.
That's sort of like the character Invisible Boy from "Mystery Men" -- he can turn invisible but only when nobody's looking at him.
I did not ask for your help, There are actual experts in craps I can talk to, and your not one
of them
And your are 100% wrong in your thinking.... My short terms results are absolutely important
because that is all you have to go by..... this notion that you have that you need to record 10,000
rolls or 20,000 rolls and that gives you a record of your edge , then you can go
to a casino and determine what your hourly win rate is and on and on, who in the world filled
your mind with that stuff.....100% wrong....
Let me ask you a question,,, if your records over 10,000 rolls showed you that you developed a 2.1%
advantage over the table.... what are you going to do with that??? The table your developed that
edge with varies from the casino table, the dice you developed that edge with varies from those
at the table. The edge you think you have is only on your roll, how is that affected by betting on
others on the table, what happens if the table is full and you only get the dice 2 times in an hour.
All the stuff you talk about is from some text book, not from table experience. You have never looked
at 100 of your rolls to determine anything from them, yet alone 20,000 or more. How in the heck do you know
what to look for when you never looked.
You cant go to the table and get an SRR of 9.62 or 8.44 if you count only the come out roll and after.
I am going to play tomorrow, so I have to throw anyway. so I just went to the table and threw 73 rolls
about the same last night.
1-2,5-4,5-4,2-6,4-1,3-2,3-2,3-1,4-6,4-2,6-2,6-2,2-1,4-5,3-6,3-1,1-6
4-2,5-1,6-5,6-5,4-4,1-3,5-5,1-3,3-1,4-1,5-6,4-5,4-5,2-5
5-1,2-6,3-1,1-1,1-3,3-2,5-3,3-6,2-2,3-5,6-5,2-5
3-1.1-3,2-4,1-3,2-2,5-4,3-5,6-3,4-6,5-1,5-6,6-3,2-3,4-5,1-6
4-5,1-1,3-5,4-2,1-5,4-2,3-5,5-4,4-4,3-1,4-2,4-3
6-2,3-5,5-2
I think that is 73 rolls, 5 sevens.....
So this is a total of 149 rolls ...where are yours
dicesetter
I guess negative attention is better than none.
Come on now.Quote: MrVDS seems a lonely old man just crying out for attention.
I guess negative attention is better than none.
I can see why he's hesitate to participate in anything.
Quote: dicesitterMath
I did not ask for your help, There are actual experts in craps I can talk to, and your not one
of them
And your are 100% wrong in your thinking.... My short terms results are absolutely important
because that is all you have to go by..... this notion that you have that you need to record 10,000
rolls or 20,000 rolls and that gives you a record of your edge , then you can go
to a casino and determine what your hourly win rate is and on and on, who in the world filled
your mind with that stuff.....100% wrong....
Let me ask you a question,,, if your records over 10,000 rolls showed you that you developed a 2.1%
advantage over the table.... what are you going to do with that??? The table your developed that
edge with varies from the casino table, the dice you developed that edge with varies from those
at the table. The edge you think you have is only on your roll, how is that affected by betting on
others on the table, what happens if the table is full and you only get the dice 2 times in an hour.
All the stuff you talk about is from some text book, not from table experience. You have never looked
at 100 of your rolls to determine anything from them, yet alone 20,000 or more. How in the heck do you know
what to look for when you never looked.
You cant go to the table and get an SRR of 9.62 or 8.44 if you count only the come out roll and after.
I am going to play tomorrow, so I have to throw anyway. so I just went to the table and threw 73 rolls
about the same last night.
1-2,5-4,5-4,2-6,4-1,3-2,3-2,3-1,4-6,4-2,6-2,6-2,2-1,4-5,3-6,3-1,1-6
4-2,5-1,6-5,6-5,4-4,1-3,5-5,1-3,3-1,4-1,5-6,4-5,4-5,2-5
5-1,2-6,3-1,1-1,1-3,3-2,5-3,3-6,2-2,3-5,6-5,2-5
3-1.1-3,2-4,1-3,2-2,5-4,3-5,6-3,4-6,5-1,5-6,6-3,2-3,4-5,1-6
4-5,1-1,3-5,4-2,1-5,4-2,3-5,5-4,4-4,3-1,4-2,4-3
6-2,3-5,5-2
I think that is 73 rolls, 5 sevens.....
So this is a total of 149 rolls ...where are yours
dicesetter
and who would be an expert on craps????
Quote: ontariodealerand who would be an expert on craps????
Me, or any other person that never plays it!
Quote: AxelWolfCome on now. I can see why he's hesitate to participate in anything.
I said that is what he "seems."
He certainly seems to enjoy the negative attention; in fact he seems to roll in it like a pig in slop.
Why else would he continue to post nonsense about dice control, trying to go toe to toe with ME?
He's just here to stir things up and tug the tail of the so-called "math boys."
I really don't see it, he has no idea how this works....not even close. If math were correct he could find
someone to do exactly like he says and they including him would make millions, I don't see any...
Now I at least respect math, he is consistent, he is never nice. but you try to play both sides of the fence, You email me
and want it all to work out and then you get back on here and play the bad guy in front of your buddies...
Axel it does not get much worse than that.
You may not understand what I am doing, you may not like the way I present it, you may not even like me, but I
believe in what I am working on, I work with it everyday, not once a week or twice. I don't just spout off, I put in
the time.
What is your excuse for doing nothing???????
dicesetter
I wasn't directing that at DS . It was directed at all the jokers who make outrageous gambling claims.Quote: MathExtremistMaybe that's why dicesitter doesn't want to show up in public -- because he knows his dice control doesn't work in an actual casino. Perhaps he does have skill but only on a practice table where no money is at stake.
That's sort of like the character Invisible Boy from "Mystery Men" -- he can turn invisible but only when nobody's looking at him.
I really don't get it. They claim this or that on games like Baccarat and craps or whatever BS.
Legitimate AP's don't have 24/7 365 unlimited betting opportunities at oodles of locations year after year.
If they did, they would be doing it all day every day.
Nothing about dicesitter is about legitimate AP. He just asked how influence is supposed to work when there are other players at the table and you only get the dice twice an hour.Quote: AxelWolfLegitimate AP's don't have 24/7 365 unlimited betting opportunities at oodles of locations year after year.
If they did, they would be doing it all day every day.
Really? No legitimate AP would bet on other players they know to be losers, except for camouflage, and then only to the minimal degree necessary. If I had a controlled throw and could generate a player edge in craps, I'd only make those bets that had the edge (because I'd know what they were) and I'd only play alone, either in the mornings or on private tables. Why would anyone with the edge diminish it by betting on random throwers? And why is that not blindingly obvious?
Dicesitter is no AP, he's an action-craving gambler who is toying with the idea that he has some skill but wouldn't understand how to apply it if he did. I've attempted to explain this, and how to identify and profit from an edge, but have gotten nothing but scorn in return. Fine, done. I don't need to cast any more pearls.
Frankly, at this point I think he's lying about spending all that time practicing. Someone who spent that much time doing anything would either be good at it by now, or would have long ago realized they weren't getting any better and quit. Keeping up with his charade, despite having nothing to show for it, is not the behavior of someone serious about making money from their skill. And the fact that he's not the world's best dice thrower, after eight years of practice, is all the proof anyone needs that practicing one's dice throwing is useless.
You want to spend eight years practicing something, pick up a musical instrument or a sport. At least there you can tell when you're improving.
Quote: dicesitterBy the way Math just so we are fairly clear in what we are looking at.
last nights practice rolls. I had no sevens or craps on the come out
2/6 2-6 3-6 2-2 3-1 4-1 3-1 1-4 2-4
1/3 2-5 5-4 3-4 5-5 3-6 1-4 5-5 2-3
1/6 6-1 2-4 4-5 6-5 5-3 2-2
1-2 1-6 1-1 5-6 3-3 6-3
6-5 2-4 6-1 6-5 4-2
1-3 4-4 2-6 6-4
5-4 4-2 1-1 5-5
5-3 5-1 6-5 4-5
2-1 5-3 1-2 6-3
3-2 4-3 5-4 5-4
6-6 3-1 6-3
6-5 5-2 6-4
1-3 6-1
5-4
2-2
3-1
2-6
5-1
3-5
3-1
6-3
4-5
5-4
6-1
Math how would you calculate the SRR not the sevens ratio
I know ME is perfectly capable of calculating this, but I thought I might offer a method to some others using WinCraps.
First, I selected your displayed rolls then copied and pasted them into a text file which I then copied into a WinCraps roll file.
http://cloudcitysoftware.com/ds_rolls.rol
Next, I ran your rolls to collect some raw statistics.
Then I entered the data for each dice combination on the probability tab. Since there were 75 rolls total, I selected the "Show rolls out of 75" option. After each value is entered the box turns yellow to indicate it's locked.
Next I selected the "Show as percentage option".
There you can see the sevens account for 13.332% of the total rolls. This equates to an SRR of 7.5 (1/13.332%).
Then I selected the "Show as +/- from true %" option just to easier see which numbers had appeared more or less than predicted.
Then lastly I looked at the "Advantage tab" to see what effect it had on some bets.
The Passline EV shows an 11.77 player advantage.
If desired, these values can then be used to run simulations.
Steen
Quote: dicesitterSorry that's not even close
Quote: MathExtremistYes it was,
It was exactly what was posted, only formatted so each pass line decision was on a new line with 7-outs separated out.
Your original post:
My formatted post:
2-6 1-3 1-6
2-6 2-5
3-6 5-4
6-1
1-2
6-5
1-3 5-4 5-3 2-1 3-2 6-6 6-5 1-3 5-4 2-2
3-1 2-6 5-1 3-5 3-1
6-3 4-5
5-4 6-1
2-2 3-4
3-1 5-5 2-4 1-6
4-1 3-6 4-5 1-1 2-4 4-4 4-2 5-1 5-3 4-3
3-1 1-4 6-5 5-6 6-1
1-4 5-5 5-3 3-3 6-5 2-6 1-1 6-5 1-2 5-4 3-1 5-2
2-4 2-3 2-2 6-3 4-2
6-4 5-5
4-5 6-3
5-4 6-3
6-4 6-1
Of course..... I knew you would think that was directed at you. It wasn't, I was in the middle responding to ME but I got side tracked. I finally posted my response but then you posted this.Quote: dicesitterAxel, to be honest your worse than Math...... now I understand for some reason you think the guy is a god,
I really don't see it, he has no idea how this works....not even close. If math were correct he could find
someone to do exactly like he says and they including him would make millions, I don't see any...
Now I at least respect math, he is consistent, he is never nice. but you try to play both sides of the fence, You email me
and want it all to work out and then you get back on here and play the bad guy in front of your buddies...
Axel it does not get much worse than that.
You may not understand what I am doing, you may not like the way I present it, you may not even like me, but I
believe in what I am working on, I work with it everyday, not once a week or twice. I don't just spout off, I put in
the time.
What is your excuse for doing nothing???????
dicesetter
I didn't think ME or anyone is a God, however I think Math is God. ME isn't my buddy I haven't met him. I'm interested in the truth.
I told you this before and I stand by it until proven wrong....
"I'm certain DI is not possible and absolutely not in a casino and i'll argue that until someone can prove different. After 12+ years of people desperately trying, especially with all the modern information and the internet forums connecting people there should've been some proof by now. Especially when you have some of the smartest most dedicated people in the world investigating it."
However that doesn't mean I don't like you or I'm against you ( I haven't even met you).
I can separate gambling theories and AP stuff from personal the stuff. Same with religious beliefs, paranormal crap or whatever it is. I think DI is bunk not you personally. In this case.... hate the game not the player.
I have good friends that are complete idiots when it comes to gambling ideas or whatever nonsense they are touting. I have no problem telling them they are foolish and deluded or they are just making sh*t up. That doesn't mean I won't pay for dinner, hang out, have fun or just be there for them if they need my help.
If I thought I could help you beat the casinos or there was something I could reasonably do for you, then I would.
I told you about some places that had extra value on craps especially if you really can influence the dice and even if you can't well there's still value. That doesn't mean I believe DI works. If I smell BS i'm going to question it.
I said before you definitely have a good looking shot. If DI was actually possible I would betting on you over what I have seen from 99% of the other shooters. If anyone could prove it it might just be you. But a good looking shot doesn't mean you can alter the odds.
I still hold a tiny bit of hope that it's actually possible. I want to know if DI is possible but I can't just rely on what you or anyone is claiming. There's guys out there that actually think they can predict baccarat patterns/trends, roulette numbers and all kinds of goofy stuff. Do you think I should I believe them?
If I could influence the dice I wouldn't be telling anyone, I would just go do it.
There's really no way for me to prove you can't influence the dice.
So it's not on me to do anything, it's on you to prove DI is possible, especially since all the evidence shows the contrary. You're the one who keeps touting DI as possible.
It's mind boggling. You think everyone here is on the opposite side of this argument and you think some of us are jerks or whatever.
So again I ask, what's the point of trying to convince people, here of all places that you can and do have influence?
Wow, my practice rolls must have been pretty good for you to lose it like this.
Makes my day.
dicesetter
That being said, anyone and everyone who thinks they can influence the dice -- go ahead....go play 10k rolls and see how your results are in a live setting. If results are bad, you probably got unlucky and should try another 10k rolls.
Subtle Lol.Quote: RSI actually might change my opinion about dice influence/control. My thinking is this -- the more DI's there are, the more the casino will profit,
There are plenty of Dice Influencers. They are real. I'm convinced that DS is one of the best.Quote:That being said, anyone and everyone who thinks they can influence the dice -- go ahead....go play 10k rolls and see how your results are in a live setting. If results are bad, you probably got unlucky and should try another 10k rolls.
Pity none of them can influence dice.
This thread is still a car crash / train wreck. ME challenges DS to simply prove himself and offers help to monetize any influence: DS challenges ME to **** knows what: and Axel and others try to broker an environment to make those challenges happen. They never will. So we have deadlock.
There is no value in proving DS wrong. He just is. He sees no value in proving himself right. Beats me why he posts at all, except to maybe reinforce his self-belief.
For some reason it all reminds me of this....
Don't you love farce?
My fault, I fear.
I thought that you'd want what I want -
Sorry, my dear.
But where are the clowns?
Quick, send in the clowns.
Don't bother, they're here.
Quote: dicesitterAxel
there is not a person here that supports what
I do...
dicesetter
I do. I support your chance to show us you can influence the dice. I supported it when Nickolay tried. Thinking that you will fail is not the same as 'not supporting what you do'. If I was involved, I would make sure you had a totally fair chance to succeed. If you doubt me ask Nickolay or Ahigh or any of the other members who were present for the previous challenge.
Now see that is a perfectly reasonable statement"
"I'm certain DI is not possible and absolutely not in a casino and i'll argue that until someone can prove different. After 12+ years of people desperately trying, especially with all the modern information and the internet forums connecting people there should've been some proof by now. Especially when you have some of the smartest most dedicated people in the world investigating it."
I have no problem with that. none... that is miles away from the other crap on here....
Math always wants proof of what I do, look the last two days I put my practice rolls on here...this is an actual
record. not something I hope I did or would want to do, what my rolls actually were.
Were I find this interesting is this, look at the rolls of Thursday, the last two rolls were more consistent and
what I did was a change a set. My practice rolls of yesterday were different in that I did not go through
my normal 3 sets , I started with the same set i ended with yesterday, the rolls were again much more consistent.
I looked back at my last two casino trips, and this was the third set change I had made then, and the rolls
again were profitable. When you see something over and over... at home and at different casino's and then
look back over many months that is the reason it is one of the sets I use in my rotation. At the very least
you got to notice that.
Now getting Math to accept anything is not possible, he has been brainwashed, but your not in that situation,
nor are others here that have emailed me... hell Axel, I don't believe in dice control, I sure as hell am not
doing that, but when you throw as many rolls as I have, you try things and adjustments in set that for what
ever reason produce better than average rolls. I can tell you this for sure, if I went to my practice table or the
casino, and did not change my shot if\\or my set when I had to, I could not beat random with a baseball
bat....so in that regard your correct, all those years were a waste of time........however, I wont do that, because
i know that does not work. I really hope we can play sometime, you will se what I am trying to explain, not
to well at times it appears.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterAxel, I don't believe in dice control, I sure as hell am not doing that, but when you throw as many rolls as I have, you try things and adjustments in set that for what ever reason
What a train wreck.
You finally admit that you have no ability to control the dice, yet you believe something must be at work because some days you do better than others.
Dude, it's called luck, aka variance.
What we've been telling you ever since you started boasting that you could control the dice, claiming that you had an advantage.
So now you've gone from believing you were the Golden Child to believing in Magic.
*poof* (that was pixie dust)
Why don't you believe anyone can control the dice?Quote: dicesitterAxel
Now see that is a perfectly reasonable statement"
"I'm certain DI is not possible and absolutely not in a casino and i'll argue that until someone can prove different. After 12+ years of people desperately trying, especially with all the modern information and the internet forums connecting people there should've been some proof by now. Especially when you have some of the smartest most dedicated people in the world investigating it."
I have no problem with that. none... that is miles away from the other crap on here....
Math always wants proof of what I do, look the last two days I put my practice rolls on here...this is an actual
record. not something I hope I did or would want to do, what my rolls actually were.
Were I find this interesting is this, look at the rolls of Thursday, the last two rolls were more consistent and
what I did was a change a set. My practice rolls of yesterday were different in that I did not go through
my normal 3 sets , I started with the same set i ended with yesterday, the rolls were again much more consistent.
I looked back at my last two casino trips, and this was the third set change I had made then, and the rolls
again were profitable. When you see something over and over... at home and at different casino's and then
look back over many months that is the reason it is one of the sets I use in my rotation. At the very least
you got to notice that.
Now getting Math to accept anything is not possible, he has been brainwashed, but your not in that situation,
nor are others here that have emailed me... hell Axel, I don't believe in dice control, I sure as hell am not
doing that, but when you throw as many rolls as I have, you try things and adjustments in set that for what
ever reason produce better than average rolls. I can tell you this for sure, if I went to my practice table or the
casino, and did not change my shot if\\or my set when I had to, I could not beat random with a baseball
bat....so in that regard your correct, all those years were a waste of time........however, I wont do that, because
i know that does not work. I really hope we can play sometime, you will se what I am trying to explain, not
to well at times it appears.
dicesetter
