eclectic
Joined: Jan 3, 2016
• Posts: 105
January 18th, 2016 at 8:39:53 AM permalink
I first came across this theory when reading Zeke Feinberg's books. The basic concept he sums up in the following two sentences.
"The inside numbers (5,6,8,9) ratio only comes into play when the 7's ratios are normal or higher than normal. The higher the ratio
of 7's above 1/6 average, the better the opportunity for earning profits".

I learned more about charting from the following article by Larry Edell.

http://edell.casinocitytimes.com/article/the-secrets-of-charting-the-tables-31931s

I was looking for feedback from anyone who has practical experience in applying this concept by tracking the rolls at a table?

It seems to me that a successful betting strategy could be exploited based on a quantitative expression of these ratios?

Thank you.
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
• Posts: 6526
January 18th, 2016 at 8:52:26 AM permalink
The dice odds don't change from one roll to another. Charting the table is just an expression of the Gambler's Fallacy. Don't waste your time.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
• Posts: 8363
January 18th, 2016 at 8:55:20 AM permalink
I'd like to ask the author how the dice 'know' what they rolled before.

I talked to some and they were the dumbest pieces of plastic ever. They said nothing but must have thought they had rolled plenty of other numbers besides 7 after I talked to them. So they then rolled a bunch of 7s on me!

OK, that was sarcasm, but how do you think the author would respond? That the dice know?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
OnceDear
Joined: Jun 1, 2014
• Posts: 4505
January 18th, 2016 at 10:21:48 AM permalink
Quote: eclectic

I first came across this theory when reading Zeke Feinberg's books. The basic concept he sums up in the following two sentences.
"The inside numbers (5,6,8,9) ratio only comes into play when the 7's ratios are normal or higher than normal. The higher the ratio
of 7's above 1/6 average, the better the opportunity for earning profits".

http://edell.casinocitytimes.com/article/the-secrets-of-charting-the-tables-31931s

It seems to me that a successful betting strategy could be exploited based on a quantitative expression of these ratios?
Thank you.

Should be http://edell.casinocitytimes.com/article/the-secrets-of-charting-the-tables-31931

But utter bunkum! That whole site is full of crap(s)!

You can chart past results till the end of time, but past rolls (That's all you can chart) give no indication of future rolls (That's all you can bet on)

UNLESS you spend your winnings on a time travel machine. *
'...a successful betting strategy could be exploited based on an ability to bet yesterday, based on tomorrows analysis of yesterdays rolls'.
But then you wouldn't need to chart the results, just bet on the exact outcome that you've already observed tomorrow.

*Nice little paradox there. 'Buy time machine today, from yesterdays massive winnings: Make massive winnings yesterday by using time machine to travel there.'
Take care out there. Spare a thought for the newly poor who were happy in their world just a few days ago, but whose whole way of life just collapsed..
eclectic
Joined: Jan 3, 2016
• Posts: 105
January 18th, 2016 at 10:30:24 AM permalink
I hear ya', and MathExtremist too. The math is saying that results are based on independent trials.

Actually, I misspoke in my original post. I first learned about the discussion of charts (NOT the details of the charting concept) that Thomas Midgley wrote in "Craps: A Smart Shooter's Guide". Using actual rolls, the results appear in graphic form in Chapter 11. These must have been the basis of a later book: "7,500 Craps Rolls". I'll have more to ask about this book in a later post, though perhaps I am already becoming redundant with gamblers fallacy.
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
• Posts: 5490
January 18th, 2016 at 11:11:36 AM permalink
I also read about "qualifying a shooter" a while back when I wanted to analyze craps so I bought a book to learn about the game in general. Basically, qualifying a shooter meant see if someone 7's out right away, if not, bet on their throws! ...Yeah it's basically the gamblers fallacy and just something to make yourself feel more confident but in real mathematical terms it doesn't affect the outcome at all.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
AxelWolf
Joined: Oct 10, 2012
• Posts: 18291
January 18th, 2016 at 11:49:30 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Should be http://edell.casinocitytimes.com/article/the-secrets-of-charting-the-tables-31931

But utter bunkum! That whole site is full of crap(s)!

You can chart past results till the end of time, but past rolls (That's all you can chart) give no indication of future rolls (That's all you can bet on)

UNLESS you spend your winnings on a time travel machine. *
'...a successful betting strategy could be exploited based on an ability to bet yesterday, based on tomorrows analysis of yesterdays rolls'.
But then you wouldn't need to chart the results, just bet on the exact outcome that you've already observed tomorrow.

*Nice little paradox there. 'Buy time machine today, from yesterdays massive winnings: Make massive winnings yesterday by using time machine to travel there.'

But wouldn't something bad happen if he seen himself at the table?☺ I'm not sure what they call that perhaps a temporal time flux or something?

Does he leave himself a note? Perhaps he needs to observe someone else shooting and tell them what to bet?

Thanks to Alan we now know the best time and location one should focus on. I'm not sure if a time traveler could sneak a bet in without messing up the string of 18 yo's or not, perhaps he could just make a deal with Alan prior. But wouldn't that affect the outcome?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
TwoFeathersATL
Joined: May 22, 2013
• Posts: 3616
January 18th, 2016 at 12:06:12 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

But wouldn't something bad happen if he seen himself at the table?☺ I'm not sure what they call that perhaps a temporal time flux or something?

Does he leave himself a note? Perhaps he needs to observe someone else shooting and tell them what to bet?

Thanks to Alan we now know the best time and location one should focus on. I'm not sure if a time traveler could sneak a bet in without messing up the string of 18 yo's or not, perhaps he could just make a deal with Alan prior. But wouldn't that affect the outcome?

If I had really big money against a yo, repeatedly, the odds of consecutive yo's goes up, repeatedly. Reality is reality, you can't fake it ;-( ..But no, I was not at that table that day. I did not influence the odds, this I swear ;-)
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
dicesitter
Joined: Jan 17, 2013
• Posts: 1157
January 19th, 2016 at 7:21:33 AM permalink
eclectic

Your 100% correct in saying a successful betting strategy could be exploited if you pay attention
at the table.

Now mind you, the kids on this site will insult your imagination and willingness to
actually put any thought into your bets. They being the brightest stars in the gambling
industry, understand that, dice setting does not work, that every set of dice on a table
is exactly the same and if for what ever reason the table is producing for more 4 or 10s
than would be a normal random outcome, for heavens sakes don't bet them, you need
to bet the 6 & 8 because that is what the math of the game tells you.

There are many things you can do at the table to increase your ability to do better
than the average player.... but you sure as hell don't want to talk about that on
here.

Of course that is just my point of view.

dicesetter

P,S, the kids are also very short on courage, the never want to compare
what they can do with some one else, or what their shot produces when
compared to some one else, and they sure as hell would not want to compare
a 6 months record of their table results... they will discourage you from
putting any effort in your idea.
SOOPOO
Joined: Aug 8, 2010