CHARTING A TABLE
April 3rd, 2016 at 10:34:49 PM
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Math check: did you really never roll a come-out seven in any of those 12 hands? Because if you did, you've been computing SRR wrong. What you've recorded is simply the ratio of rolls to hands, not the ratio of sevens to rolls.Quote: dicesitterI posted last weeks results and tonight I had 12 hands for a total of 122 rolls for a very nice 10.17 SRR
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
April 4th, 2016 at 12:04:00 AM
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Quote: dicesitterRS
I posted last weeks results and tonight I had 12 hands for a total
of 122 rolls for a very nice 10.17 SRR
Tonight my shot started terrible, I shoot it from Stick right, but last
2 weeks have been working from stick left so I feel I can be effective
when area tables have only one side open.
RS what are the odds whatever I post will be good enough for you.
dicesetter
I vaguely remember seeing something that could'a been dice rolls, but it didn't really make any sense. Looking back now (from here to page 37), I can't seem to find that post again....although I could have overlooked it.
April 4th, 2016 at 1:47:57 AM
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I just recorded some rolls for you to analyze.Quote: RSI vaguely remember seeing something that could'a been dice rolls, but it didn't really make any sense. Looking back now (from here to page 37), I can't seem to find that post again....although I could have overlooked it.
65 65 65 65 65 65 65 65 56
65 65 65 65 65 56 65 65 65
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 4th, 2016 at 1:58:46 AM
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DS: 1 thing at a time, or you guys are just going to argue yourselves out of it, or before you know it someone is just going to get suspended again.
Forget the money for now and Just ignore ME for a minute.
where do you suggest this challenge take place? You must have some Idea since you required a private challenge. Last time I checked not everyone had a spare craps table laying around.
Forget the money for now and Just ignore ME for a minute.
where do you suggest this challenge take place? You must have some Idea since you required a private challenge. Last time I checked not everyone had a spare craps table laying around.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 4th, 2016 at 7:22:36 AM
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Axel
Again I don't know where this guy lives. I cant expect him to want to fly up
here for a hour deal.
I am free do what ever I want within limits.
I play here, some in Las Vegas, Tunica, Biloxi, St louis, Central City and have played in AC.
There are dealer schools in a number of places which have tables.
See where Math thinks he can get, and then I will try to find a table.
The problem with a casino, is you never will get that table to yourself
for sure. Maybe a place like Tunica very early in the morning.
I am retired, I more than likely have more flexibility than Math if he
has to work.
dicesetter
Again I don't know where this guy lives. I cant expect him to want to fly up
here for a hour deal.
I am free do what ever I want within limits.
I play here, some in Las Vegas, Tunica, Biloxi, St louis, Central City and have played in AC.
There are dealer schools in a number of places which have tables.
See where Math thinks he can get, and then I will try to find a table.
The problem with a casino, is you never will get that table to yourself
for sure. Maybe a place like Tunica very early in the morning.
I am retired, I more than likely have more flexibility than Math if he
has to work.
dicesetter
April 4th, 2016 at 7:55:27 AM
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Administrator
He has insulted everything I have done and put up here for weeks. I think
your a little late,
But if you get the idea that I don't like this guy, you may be on to something.
dicesetter
He has insulted everything I have done and put up here for weeks. I think
your a little late,
But if you get the idea that I don't like this guy, you may be on to something.
dicesetter
April 4th, 2016 at 8:27:09 AM
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Quote: dicesitterAdministrator: He has insulted everything I have done and put up here for weeks.
ME's posts question the value of your work, not your value as an individual; any insult which you feel would be derivative.
He QUESTIONS the accuracy "of everything I have done," which is not only OK, it is most appropriate when analyzing claims such as yours on a science / math-based board such as this, as he harbors genuine doubt about your claims and asks only that you prove them.
You don't like it?
Prove the truth of what you claim with objective, replicable evidence, not anecdotal assertions and bluster.
BTW, had you bothered to check (look at his profile) , you'd see he lives in the Pacific NW.
"What, me worry?"
April 4th, 2016 at 9:23:44 AM
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MrV
I understand what your saying, but if I am willing to do that I would think you may
look at my point of view.
If you are a baker and have been for many years, and I come in your bakery
and say I don't like any of your products.... that may be my opinion, but to
the baker you better believe that is personal. Because you produced what
ever I don't like.
dicesetter
I understand what your saying, but if I am willing to do that I would think you may
look at my point of view.
If you are a baker and have been for many years, and I come in your bakery
and say I don't like any of your products.... that may be my opinion, but to
the baker you better believe that is personal. Because you produced what
ever I don't like.
dicesetter
April 4th, 2016 at 9:32:35 AM
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Quote: dicesitterThe problem with a casino, is you never will get that table to yourself
for sure. Maybe a place like Tunica very early in the morning.
I think there are enough Vegas WoV regulars to fill a table. If they're betting, the house has no reason to make them leave. Everyone else agrees not to shoot, problem solved.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
April 4th, 2016 at 9:38:49 AM
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MATH
I told you several times. this is not going to happen.. period.
This is you and me...... opps and Axel
dicesetter
I told you several times. this is not going to happen.. period.
This is you and me...... opps and Axel
dicesetter
April 4th, 2016 at 10:01:44 AM
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This is what dicesitter posted:Quote: RSI vaguely remember seeing something that could'a been dice rolls, but it didn't really make any sense. Looking back now (from here to page 37), I can't seem to find that post again....although I could have overlooked it.
Quote: dicesitterNot so good. I used the sets I indicated the other day. Started with a 5, 4 hands and
changed sets, then a 6. I went to my third option and had a 28 hand. I was pretty
happy and started the next hand with healthy place bets... bad idea. Over-all
I was up and down like a yo yo, hard to make money.
hands were 5,4,6,28,1,6,30,8,2,3,20,6,9,6
from https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/24843-charting-a-table/41/#post522254
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
April 4th, 2016 at 10:25:25 AM
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Can you pick a time period and a city so you guys can move on to the next question?Quote: MathExtremist
Perhaps you can ease up on the.... you can't influence the dice and all the negative stuff.
If you have it in Vegas I would be more than happy to let Mike take my place.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 4th, 2016 at 10:33:46 AM
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Of course it needs to happen in Vegas. This is the WizardofVegas forum.
I'll probably be in Vegas later this month anyway.
I'll probably be in Vegas later this month anyway.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
April 4th, 2016 at 10:53:38 AM
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dice,
Why not come out for the WoV meet-up the 15-17th? We could get a table for early Sat am or something...
Why not come out for the WoV meet-up the 15-17th? We could get a table for early Sat am or something...
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
April 4th, 2016 at 11:09:55 AM
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Honestly I think people (including myself) are being hard on you. It's obvious you love craps.Quote: dicesitter
dicesetter
I don't put you in the same category as some other guys with ulterior motives who are total fakes and trolls.
I'm certain there are guys out there touting DI who know dam well they can't do it.
You have something you believe in I think you actually believe that you can influence the dice a tad, and you want others to know it. It's something you enjoy, and if i'm understanding you correctly it helped you recover from a heath issue. I still don't think deep down you are 1000% confident in DI or you would absolutely be betting more on yourself. Or at least you would be betting more on your friends who you believe are much better.
------------------------------------------------------
Let's negotiate a bit here. Would you agree to have one extra person there? Perhaps me and Mike or perhaps RS, or one of the following GAWE, BBB ,Mission, Greasyjohn, SOOPOO, tringlomane, Boz, Roams, djatc, DJTeddyBear, Rigondeaux, mcallister3200, Zcore, Ahigh, Allen M, AOS, Dalex64, T.Ed
Sorry if I forgot anyone interested, I just mentioned some names I noticed on the list or that popped into my head.
How about doing this before a WOV event? That way we can have some fun and hear about the results just afterwards.
Perhaps a play by play posted on the forum during the event?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 4th, 2016 at 11:11:00 AM
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Quote: dicesitterThe problem with a casino, is you never will get that table to yourself
for sure.
I don't understand the reason for this condition.
Isn't the whole point of DI to make money in a casino? Do you only shoot by yourself?
April 4th, 2016 at 11:26:17 AM
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Calder
This has nothing to do with dice control, certainly has nothing to with this forum or any Wov
event.
I took some data from my practice and play and put it on this site because I like craps and
enjoy the exchange, Math has insulted me every step of the way, and then suggested he
can throw over his shoulder and beat me......
If he feels that strongly in his ability, and he places no value on anything I have worked on...
well and good.... lets see who is correct......
But this is between him and me.....
And yes I try to shoot by myself as much as I can.
dicesetter
This has nothing to do with dice control, certainly has nothing to with this forum or any Wov
event.
I took some data from my practice and play and put it on this site because I like craps and
enjoy the exchange, Math has insulted me every step of the way, and then suggested he
can throw over his shoulder and beat me......
If he feels that strongly in his ability, and he places no value on anything I have worked on...
well and good.... lets see who is correct......
But this is between him and me.....
And yes I try to shoot by myself as much as I can.
dicesetter
April 4th, 2016 at 11:39:09 AM
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Axelwolf
I have no problem if your there, none at all.
But this is not an event, it is not a circus between this entire
board and then myself.. This is just Math and I, he says he can
beat, I say he cant.
No one else has to know anything about it, your there to see that it went
ok. There is no reason for anyone else to see, hear or even know what
happened because it has nothing to do with anyone else. Now I understand
math is trying to make it a circus. sorry......
dicesetter
P.S.
Your correct about the betting, As I explained I lost a good
deal of money the first number of years I worked with this
stuff. When you improve and get your game gets to where
you want it, it is not that easy to change your betting
patterns no matter what you believe. the last several
weeks I have been working with one of the best guys
around and he is looking at my records and patterns to see
what my best betting patterns should be like. Last night
I made the same mistake I have been making, even with
a 10.17 SRR, I screwed up.
I have no problem if your there, none at all.
But this is not an event, it is not a circus between this entire
board and then myself.. This is just Math and I, he says he can
beat, I say he cant.
No one else has to know anything about it, your there to see that it went
ok. There is no reason for anyone else to see, hear or even know what
happened because it has nothing to do with anyone else. Now I understand
math is trying to make it a circus. sorry......
dicesetter
P.S.
Your correct about the betting, As I explained I lost a good
deal of money the first number of years I worked with this
stuff. When you improve and get your game gets to where
you want it, it is not that easy to change your betting
patterns no matter what you believe. the last several
weeks I have been working with one of the best guys
around and he is looking at my records and patterns to see
what my best betting patterns should be like. Last night
I made the same mistake I have been making, even with
a 10.17 SRR, I screwed up.
Last edited by: dicesitter on Apr 4, 2016
April 4th, 2016 at 1:59:08 PM
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So far dicesitter has said he won't do the challenge in a casino, and MathExtremist has said he won't do it anywhere else.
So unless they can compromise on this point, there's no point moving forward on other details like $$$ at risk, etc.
So unless they can compromise on this point, there's no point moving forward on other details like $$$ at risk, etc.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
April 4th, 2016 at 3:20:09 PM
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I would be interested in being there. I really enjoy craps. I set my dice to 53 Everytime I shoot. I know it don't matter. 8 is my lucky/favorite number and if it doesn't matter if I set them then I guess it can't hurt. Last month I had 2 monster rolls with this strategy so I will keep with it.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
April 4th, 2016 at 3:55:07 PM
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Quote: GWAEI would be interested in being there. I really enjoy craps.
So would I.
Alas and alack, it is not to be.
"What, me worry?"
April 4th, 2016 at 4:22:02 PM
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Wasn't one of the earlier conditions if you fly out to cheese country he would pay your airfare, and if comes to Vegas you pay his?Quote: MathExtremistOf course it needs to happen in Vegas. This is the WizardofVegas forum.
I'll probably be in Vegas later this month anyway.
April 4th, 2016 at 4:58:38 PM
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You do understand ME is not betting he can do anything really hes betting that YOU can't beat a random roller (that just happens to be him)Quote: dicesitterAxelwolf
I have no problem if your there, none at all.
But this is not an event, it is not a circus between this entire
board and then myself.. This is just Math and I, he says he can
beat, I say he cant.
No one else has to know anything about it, your there to see that it went
ok. There is no reason for anyone else to see, hear or even know what
happened because it has nothing to do with anyone else. Now I understand
math is trying to make it a circus. sorry......
dicesetter
P.S.
Your correct about the betting, As I explained I lost a good
deal of money the first number of years I worked with this
stuff. When you improve and get your game gets to where
you want it, it is not that easy to change your betting
patterns no matter what you believe. the last several
weeks I have been working with one of the best guys
around and he is looking at my records and patterns to see
what my best betting patterns should be like. Last night
I made the same mistake I have been making, even with
a 10.17 SRR, I screwed up.
Unfortunately I think your terms are to stringent. You claim he's turning it into a circus just with and turn him into a clown. Asking that a few people be present isn't out of line. You do realize what you are asking is out of line. If ME asked the same thing I would say the same thing to him.
Come on DS, this is about you and anyone that's ever doubted you.
If you really thought was really about you and him you could've took it to the PM's.
Honestly DS, people are perceiving your strict conditions as a way to get out of this and as a form of absolute weakness. ME WINS automatically if you can't make reasonable conditions.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 4th, 2016 at 5:32:14 PM
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Petroglyph
He does not want to do this because he knows he cant win....period. So the only
way to get this to happen is to have his buddies around him. Make a party out of
it.
You know me, you know I can play the game and if I say I will do something
I will.
I think Math and I and Axel, even if it is in Vegas is fair....
dicesetter
He does not want to do this because he knows he cant win....period. So the only
way to get this to happen is to have his buddies around him. Make a party out of
it.
You know me, you know I can play the game and if I say I will do something
I will.
I think Math and I and Axel, even if it is in Vegas is fair....
dicesetter
April 4th, 2016 at 5:41:34 PM
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Axel
I am being more than fair.
The idea you would indicate to math he was out of line is pure
folly. The idea of having it at a Wov meet, or being at a table full
of Wov members...... there is not a person here that supports what
I do.....none do you think Math would go to a GTC session with
40 GTC members there and take on Dom and tell them they were
all nuts.
Being fair and stupid are not the same. If you want this to happen
he will have to give just much as I do.
dicesetter
I am being more than fair.
The idea you would indicate to math he was out of line is pure
folly. The idea of having it at a Wov meet, or being at a table full
of Wov members...... there is not a person here that supports what
I do.....none do you think Math would go to a GTC session with
40 GTC members there and take on Dom and tell them they were
all nuts.
Being fair and stupid are not the same. If you want this to happen
he will have to give just much as I do.
dicesetter
April 4th, 2016 at 6:04:37 PM
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Hi Sally, Yes, I definitely agree with ME about this thread being on life support. He effectively answered to question in his post by quoting Epstein, and you have
actually provided confirmation with verification from Zumma.
I plead guilty to ignorance on my part, and view it as sort of an evolution of learning experience. I have since learned that in reality it is all about the relationship
between two factors: deviation and equipartition. I'm sure you and others are aware of these concepts, just as I have now learned.
When I read the book "13 Against The Bank", I believed there was something special about it but never pursued it due to a change in career at the time.
I appreciate you well thought out and reasoned posts and for sharing your insights and special math talents.
Yes, the answer is and was: as the number of rolls increase the absolute difference between two independent decisions increase while the percentage decreases.
And equipartition is more the norm than not.
Or how long out of balance before equipartition becomes the factor.
Sally, I'd love to hear more about how and when you decide to do your lay bets?
I have no books to sell anyone. Iv'e just been a habitual bookworm all my life. A misspent youth of sorts. As we all know, one should not believe everything
they read; especially in the self-help and do it yourself section.
Thanks to everyone for your patience and indulgence. I should have know this was an errant path; and basically an unanswerable question.
actually provided confirmation with verification from Zumma.
I plead guilty to ignorance on my part, and view it as sort of an evolution of learning experience. I have since learned that in reality it is all about the relationship
between two factors: deviation and equipartition. I'm sure you and others are aware of these concepts, just as I have now learned.
When I read the book "13 Against The Bank", I believed there was something special about it but never pursued it due to a change in career at the time.
I appreciate you well thought out and reasoned posts and for sharing your insights and special math talents.
Yes, the answer is and was: as the number of rolls increase the absolute difference between two independent decisions increase while the percentage decreases.
And equipartition is more the norm than not.
Or how long out of balance before equipartition becomes the factor.
Sally, I'd love to hear more about how and when you decide to do your lay bets?
I have no books to sell anyone. Iv'e just been a habitual bookworm all my life. A misspent youth of sorts. As we all know, one should not believe everything
they read; especially in the self-help and do it yourself section.
Thanks to everyone for your patience and indulgence. I should have know this was an errant path; and basically an unanswerable question.
April 4th, 2016 at 6:07:00 PM
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I think win, lose, or draw it should be a party. Why not? Just because some of us think DI is complete crap doesn't mean we all couldn't have a beer and shoot the sh%$.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed.
I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
April 4th, 2016 at 6:15:07 PM
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Quote: dicesitterdo you think Math would go to a GTC session with
40 GTC members there and take on Dom and tell them they were
all nuts.
I'd tell them that, you bet I would!
In fact I told a GTC instructor I met at a wedding (small world) that dice setting was a waste of time, that it changed nothing.
I'd gladly tell Dom (or any other dice setter) to his face that he's "nuts" to believe in the efficacy of dice setting.
ME would say it more diplomatically than I would, but the message would be the same.
"What, me worry?"
April 4th, 2016 at 6:39:06 PM
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There are several individuals in Vegas, many associated with dice teachers, with home tables that may be persuaded to host such an event in addition to dealer schools. A Vegas location does not have to be at a casino.
Take a week off from this thread and 20 pages of nothing appear!
Take a week off from this thread and 20 pages of nothing appear!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 4th, 2016 at 6:44:52 PM
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Quote: dicesitterAxel
I am being more than fair.
The idea you would indicate to math he was out of line is pure
folly. The idea of having it at a Wov meet, or being at a table full
of Wov members...... there is not a person here that supports what
I do.....none do you think Math would go to a GTC session with
40 GTC members there and take on Dom and tell them they were
all nuts.
Being fair and stupid are not the same. If you want this to happen
he will have to give just much as I do.
dicesetter
Dice,
I would say, rather, that there are more than a few of us who would be glad to see a real DI at work. We'd LIKE to see you do well. Really. The issue with ME seems to me to be more of objective proof than whether you are actually doing anything. I myself am still quite sure I saw a DI at Harrah's, with miplet, 2 years ago. I just didn't know what I was looking at in time to bet it, but the 2 guys betting the field with him in purple sure cleaned up.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
April 4th, 2016 at 9:58:44 PM
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Exactly (or a bottle of good Scotch). There's no point in playing craps if it's not a party. Gambling is about fun and entertainment, not work. If it's work, you're either an AP or someone trying to be. And while I'm not an AP, I can't imagine most real APs are so dour that they don't find some thrill or joy in chasing the next play. Otherwise, why bother? There are *lots* better ways to make money.Quote: GWAEI think win, lose, or draw it should be a party. Why not? Just because some of us think DI is complete crap doesn't mean we all couldn't have a beer and shoot the sh%$.
I don't understand dicesitter's logic in proposing a "private" challenge -- I just don't think he's thought the meaning of "private" through. If he wants to maintain his privacy, that won't happen unless there are no other people in the room and nobody ever reports the details of his throwing here on the forum. Of course, that's entirely the opposite of the point of the challenge. The whole point is for him to prove that his skill can out-shoot a random shooter (based on hand length), so obviously the details of how and whether that happened are going to make their way back here. I mean, after you've all read through this thread for weeks, can you imagine if the conclusion of this whole saga was simply:
How anticlimactic would that be!Quote: dicesitterMathExtremist won the challenge, I couldn't out-shoot him.
So I'm with you -- I think lots of members here would want to at least read about, if not personally attend, a dice-throwing exhibition by dicesitter where he tries to out-shoot a random roller (played by someone else, it could be me, it could be a dice cup, it could be a spreadsheet). I think it's very poor form to suggest depriving the readership of that opportunity.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
April 4th, 2016 at 10:16:20 PM
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Most likely, yes. I'd review the evidence first, and if the evidence didn't show any control, I'd say so. Rendering well-considered opinions based on sufficient evidence and rigorous methodology is one of the things I do for a living, so I wouldn't just conclude a priori that nobody in that group was actually exerting any control. I'd need to investigate first.Quote: MrVME would say it more diplomatically than I would, but the message would be the same.
In dicesitter's case, the evidence he's presented is both internally inconsistent and insufficient to reach any conclusion other than (a) he doesn't have any control or (b) if he has control, he isn't profiting from it. My money's on the former but it's possible (however unlikely) that he has developed some influence over the dice during his eight years of practice but doesn't know it because it's not detectable (by him).
Regardless, he's had plenty of opportunity to prove his claims. He's declined every single time.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
April 5th, 2016 at 3:06:27 AM
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I think I get it now.Quote: dicesitterAxel
I am being more than fair.
The idea you would indicate to math he was out of line is pure
folly. The idea of having it at a Wov meet, or being at a table full
of Wov members...... there is not a person here that supports what
I do.....none do you think Math would go to a GTC session with
40 GTC members there and take on Dom and tell them they were
all nuts.
Being fair and stupid are not the same. If you want this to happen
he will have to give just much as I do.
dicesetter
You kinda feel that most, if not all, would be there rallying against you while laughing and mocking you like a bunch of high school jocks that got suck with the fat/nerdy kid on their team?
I can assure you 99.% of the members here are pussycats in person. I'm fairly certain many of them were the nerds themselves.
I do think you would have support from some (even if in secret only).
I suggest you just plan a trip that coincides with ME's trip and a WOV meetup, come to the event meet and greet hang out with the members. Once you realize people are not the monsters you imagine and feel more comfortable, you can get down to business.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 5th, 2016 at 3:54:42 AM
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Sally, a few other comments. We don't really know what Feinberg is thinking unless it's all built on gamblers fantasy. Probably the case as you have demonstrated. I don't think he's saying that the # of 7's is indicative of any inside numbers. I mean if the inside numbers (5-6-8-9) represent 1/2 of the total dice rolls, the other half would be all other numbers to wit: 2-3-4-7-10-11-12) Maybe if there have been a LOT of 7's rolled, then one would look at the ratio of either inside numbers; or anything that is not an inside number. If the ratio indicated that the latter set of numbers were due, maybe bet either field or DP? Again, a slippery slope there.
You wrote:
"do you think it means that when there are 1 in 6 or more 7s
there will be more than 1/2 inside #s and one can win more money that way?"
I think Feinberg would then look at the 1/2 ratio of total numbers rolled.
I didn't look at the 7,500 study to 'chart' the (total-inside-7's) to see if it was predictive for the outcome of a new shooter. You've got all the Zumma stats to figure it
out and I will do that for 7,500 and report back fwiw and as a matter of interest b/c you seem to have something worked out on lay bets.
One other comment. 7,500 rolls are not enough for a valid statistical sample. The other book, 72-hours at the craps table, (how many total rolls unknown?)
is also not a valid statistical sample if it's not more than 10,000 rolls. Not enough rolls? I posted earlier that it would probably take at least 10,000 rolls where the numerical deviation of 100 would equal a % deviation of 1% and that assumes taking odds when playing the Pass to get it lower than the 1.4%. (Where 1% is the deviation of an even chance.)
I'm surprised that I haven't read the upcoming book: "10 against Vegas": How a group of math nerds beat the casinos out of millions playing craps"
The story would begin about how they began by charting one table on 24/7 shifts at an AP casino for over 10,000 rolls. After the data had been compiled,
they immediately began betting a systematic mathematical plan based on statistics and percentages following the trend of either deviation or equipartition.
I enjoy the discussions and thank everyone for their thoughts and comments.
You wrote:
"do you think it means that when there are 1 in 6 or more 7s
there will be more than 1/2 inside #s and one can win more money that way?"
I think Feinberg would then look at the 1/2 ratio of total numbers rolled.
I didn't look at the 7,500 study to 'chart' the (total-inside-7's) to see if it was predictive for the outcome of a new shooter. You've got all the Zumma stats to figure it
out and I will do that for 7,500 and report back fwiw and as a matter of interest b/c you seem to have something worked out on lay bets.
One other comment. 7,500 rolls are not enough for a valid statistical sample. The other book, 72-hours at the craps table, (how many total rolls unknown?)
is also not a valid statistical sample if it's not more than 10,000 rolls. Not enough rolls? I posted earlier that it would probably take at least 10,000 rolls where the numerical deviation of 100 would equal a % deviation of 1% and that assumes taking odds when playing the Pass to get it lower than the 1.4%. (Where 1% is the deviation of an even chance.)
I'm surprised that I haven't read the upcoming book: "10 against Vegas": How a group of math nerds beat the casinos out of millions playing craps"
The story would begin about how they began by charting one table on 24/7 shifts at an AP casino for over 10,000 rolls. After the data had been compiled,
they immediately began betting a systematic mathematical plan based on statistics and percentages following the trend of either deviation or equipartition.
I enjoy the discussions and thank everyone for their thoughts and comments.
April 5th, 2016 at 4:33:53 AM
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Quote: MrVI'd tell them that, you bet I would!
In fact I told a GTC instructor I met at a wedding (small world) that dice setting was a waste of time, that it changed nothing.
I'd gladly tell Dom (or any other dice setter) to his face that he's "nuts" to believe in the efficacy of dice setting.
ME would say it more diplomatically than I would, but the message would be the same.
I would too, as would many WoV members I imagine. Some more diplomatically than others.
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
April 5th, 2016 at 7:39:15 AM
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I seriously hope you don't think Dom is some DI master who's out beating craps. I feel sorry for anyone who actually believes that.Quote: dicesitterAxel
I am being more than fair.
The idea you would indicate to math he was out of line is pure
folly. The idea of having it at a Wov meet, or being at a table full
of Wov members...... there is not a person here that supports what
I do.....none do you think Math would go to a GTC session with
40 GTC members there and take on Dom and tell them they were
all nuts.
Being fair and stupid are not the same. If you want this to happen
he will have to give just much as I do.
dicesetter
----------------------------------------------------
Can I ask you a question?
Do you believe there are guys out there who can beat baccarat? ( Other than proven methods such as edge sorting)
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 5th, 2016 at 7:49:07 AM
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I take it the instructor was a believer, and did not tell you at his volition that the classes were a waste of time? Of course that would be tantamount to his admitting to being a fraud.
April 7th, 2016 at 6:06:28 AM
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Quote: eclecticI take it the instructor was a believer, and did not tell you at his volition that the classes were a waste of time? Of course that would be tantamount to his admitting to being a fraud.
I went back and read your original post. Turns out everybody was right just talking past each other. Only Zeke was full of crap. DS changes (allegedly) the frequency of sevens, so it works for him. For ME, the long run frequency of sevens do not change, so he is right and Zeke is still wrong.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 7th, 2016 at 6:21:57 AM
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Thank you for pointing that out. And the instructor at the wedding? (:-)
April 7th, 2016 at 7:30:28 AM
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interesting evening at the table.
My Wednesday night play was interesting only because of the number distribution.
I never had a 2 or a 12 in any of the rolls.
To be honest most times I would not even notice that, except that this was on a table
with a ATS bet. Each time I got the dice, I had the opportunity to hit that bet except
for those numbers.
Finished with a decent 11 SRR but no bonus bet.
Every 36 rolls you should get a 2 & 12, last night it was more like one of each for
the evening.
dicesetter
My Wednesday night play was interesting only because of the number distribution.
I never had a 2 or a 12 in any of the rolls.
To be honest most times I would not even notice that, except that this was on a table
with a ATS bet. Each time I got the dice, I had the opportunity to hit that bet except
for those numbers.
Finished with a decent 11 SRR but no bonus bet.
Every 36 rolls you should get a 2 & 12, last night it was more like one of each for
the evening.
dicesetter
April 7th, 2016 at 10:34:51 AM
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Short-term hindsight statistics like this are not useful for predictive purposes, assuming that's actually your intent. If you want to figure out where to put your money on the table, you need to look at broader aggregations of data (not just the past few dozen rolls) to see whether your attempts at influence are actually having any impact.Quote: dicesitterFinished with a decent 11 SRR but no bonus bet.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
April 7th, 2016 at 12:03:49 PM
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Math
You are 100% incorrect in your analysis.
The biggest problem you have is you don't understand the game of craps or the dice, You looking for
all the wrong things.
You have all these so-called indicators a player has to meet before "you" will admit that a player
can have some influence on winning or losing..... except......you cant find any!!!!!
That should tell you something.
I have to give you credit in one regard, your nonsense did make me look further into what I was
doing> Now I was honest in that I play to win, and the size of the win is not all that important,
however I have lost a good deal in the past and now that I have got this figured out there is
no reason not to get some of it back. So I am working with an expert in roll analysis
and dice probability to take advantage of my roll, because it wont last forever at my age.
He has opened my eyes to a number of things....
I appreciate that, even though you have gone out of your way to insult everything I have done. Because of
that I have no use for you.....period, you cant beat me on the table and you know it, so your
ducking the bet. We all have to understand our limitations.
You forced me to look at one of mine and I will be better for that, you still don't think you have any
so you will never learn.
dicesetter
You are 100% incorrect in your analysis.
The biggest problem you have is you don't understand the game of craps or the dice, You looking for
all the wrong things.
You have all these so-called indicators a player has to meet before "you" will admit that a player
can have some influence on winning or losing..... except......you cant find any!!!!!
That should tell you something.
I have to give you credit in one regard, your nonsense did make me look further into what I was
doing> Now I was honest in that I play to win, and the size of the win is not all that important,
however I have lost a good deal in the past and now that I have got this figured out there is
no reason not to get some of it back. So I am working with an expert in roll analysis
and dice probability to take advantage of my roll, because it wont last forever at my age.
He has opened my eyes to a number of things....
I appreciate that, even though you have gone out of your way to insult everything I have done. Because of
that I have no use for you.....period, you cant beat me on the table and you know it, so your
ducking the bet. We all have to understand our limitations.
You forced me to look at one of mine and I will be better for that, you still don't think you have any
so you will never learn.
dicesetter
April 7th, 2016 at 12:34:34 PM
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That's BS DS.Quote: dicesitterBecause of
that I have no use for you.....period, you cant beat me on the table and you know it, so your
ducking the bet.
dicesetter
It's insulting, and I'm not even the one who's making the bet.
You can't challenge someone and suggest a bet, but then make difficult terms and claim the OTHER guy is ducking the bet. LOW BLOW man.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 7th, 2016 at 12:44:57 PM
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Oh, DS can do pretty much whatever he damn well pleases.
As a 70 year old guy awaiting his final dirtnap he could care less about facts, math, and truth: with the End of Things looming, issues such as him wasting eight years of his life at dice setting and / or shamefully ducking a challenge do not weigh heavily on his mind.
It's all about validation.
He's praying for everlasting life, both in the Great Beyond and at the craps table.
Science vs. Superstition: I know where I'd place my bet.
As a 70 year old guy awaiting his final dirtnap he could care less about facts, math, and truth: with the End of Things looming, issues such as him wasting eight years of his life at dice setting and / or shamefully ducking a challenge do not weigh heavily on his mind.
It's all about validation.
He's praying for everlasting life, both in the Great Beyond and at the craps table.
Science vs. Superstition: I know where I'd place my bet.
"What, me worry?"
April 7th, 2016 at 1:02:50 PM
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axelwolf
His is ducking the bet. He said he can beat me, he cant..... I was more than fair, I said him and I and you
at the table.....more than fair... the bet is between him and me...... not me against all that think dice
control is not possible..... him and me.
Now you said you felt there were people that were fair enough to really want to find out what
would happen, I take your word on that, but if that is indeed the case, then there are people here that
are fair enough to understand he said he can beat me. I said he cant, there is no reason for it
to be more than that. I did not say he had to come here, I did not say it had to be on a certain table,
or on a certain date that would be difficult for him, I am even willing to change the amount of the
bet. The only thing I have asked is that it is on a table with him and me only..... and you if you
wish.
That is more than fair.
dicesetter
His is ducking the bet. He said he can beat me, he cant..... I was more than fair, I said him and I and you
at the table.....more than fair... the bet is between him and me...... not me against all that think dice
control is not possible..... him and me.
Now you said you felt there were people that were fair enough to really want to find out what
would happen, I take your word on that, but if that is indeed the case, then there are people here that
are fair enough to understand he said he can beat me. I said he cant, there is no reason for it
to be more than that. I did not say he had to come here, I did not say it had to be on a certain table,
or on a certain date that would be difficult for him, I am even willing to change the amount of the
bet. The only thing I have asked is that it is on a table with him and me only..... and you if you
wish.
That is more than fair.
dicesetter
April 7th, 2016 at 1:07:10 PM
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Did I mention there are plenty of private and or gambling school tables in Vegas? Crickets.
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
April 7th, 2016 at 1:37:57 PM
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Demango
Yes there are.
dicesetter
Yes there are.
dicesetter
April 7th, 2016 at 1:38:00 PM
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I suggested that you come to the WOV meet up and meet a few folks. NVM the bet or DI just a friendly gathering. From what I understand there's never been any beat downs. Trust me, everybody is usually focused on having fun and getting to know each other.Quote: dicesitteraxelwolf
His is ducking the bet. He said he can beat me, he cant..... I was more than fair, I said him and I and you
at the table.....more than fair... the bet is between him and me...... not me against all that think dice
control is not possible..... him and me.
Now you said you felt there were people that were fair enough to really want to find out what
would happen, I take your word on that, but if that is indeed the case, then there are people here that
are fair enough to understand he said he can beat me. I said he cant, there is no reason for it
to be more than that. I did not say he had to come here, I did not say it had to be on a certain table,
or on a certain date that would be difficult for him, I am even willing to change the amount of the
bet. The only thing I have asked is that it is on a table with him and me only..... and you if you
wish.
That is more than fair.
dicesetter
I myself would certainly like to meet you.
When it comes down to it, I don't care what you believe is possible as long as you are a good guy.
PS. I didn't believe Ahigh could influence the dice yet I still went and played craps with him a few times and even bet on him.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
April 7th, 2016 at 1:42:54 PM
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Quote: dicesitterSo I am working with an expert in roll analysis
and dice probability
Who?
April 7th, 2016 at 1:44:26 PM
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And? I don't see either of them taking any initiative to make it happen.Quote: DeMangoDid I mention there are plenty of private and or gambling school tables in Vegas? Crickets.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
