CasinoCrasher
CasinoCrasher
Joined: Oct 4, 2015
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December 10th, 2015 at 7:58:44 PM permalink
Since most everyone agrees that the house advantage in craps, produced by not paying off odds at correct amounts, is the reason that a winning system cannot be developed, what if there was no house advantage.
Would it be possible to produce a winning system or a few percent players advantage if the game was fair 50/50, no house advantage, so all odds paid the correct amount?

Thanks,

Derek
GWAE
GWAE
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December 10th, 2015 at 8:06:23 PM permalink
If you are playing a fair game that is a true 50/50 you would break even. Just like there is no system to win on a negative game, there is no system to win on a 50/50 game.
Expect the worst and you will never be disappointed. I AM NOT PART OF GWAE RADIO SHOW
Mission146
Mission146 
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December 10th, 2015 at 8:06:24 PM permalink
Quote: CasinoCrasher

Since most everyone agrees that the house advantage in craps, produced by not paying off odds at correct amounts, is the reason that a winning system cannot be developed, what if there was no house advantage.
Would it be possible to produce a winning system or a few percent players advantage if the game was fair 50/50, no house advantage, so all odds paid the correct amount?

Thanks,

Derek



No.

You could create a system that generates tons of small wins for infrequent huge losses. Alternatively, you could trade off tons of small losses for infrequent big wins. Played out, though, the expectation would still be $0.00.
Vultures can't be choosers.
Daddydoc
Daddydoc
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December 10th, 2015 at 8:08:04 PM permalink
If there was no house advantage, the casino would need to subsidize the costs of the table (mainly personnel, but also "free" booze, electricity for the lights and cameras over the table, and the rental cost of the floor space) with profits from other games. It seems unlikely to me that any casino would be willing to do this, as craps is already more expensive to the casino than a bank of slots (I think). If there was an actual player advantage, the craps tables would likely be too busy to get close enough to say hello to a dealer, let alone make a wager. I guess if there was a casino willing to give away money to all comers in such a game, you could have a winning system just by playing the pass/come or DP/DC for a long enough time without odds.
If government is the answer, it must have been a very stupid question.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 10th, 2015 at 8:09:41 PM permalink
Quote: CasinoCrasher

Since most everyone agrees that the house advantage in craps, produced by not paying off odds at correct amounts, is the reason that a winning system cannot be developed, what if there was no house advantage.
Would it be possible to produce a winning system or a few percent players advantage if the game was fair 50/50, no house advantage, so all odds paid the correct amount?

Thanks,

Derek

Don't tip the dealers play all day and wait for tips from other shooters.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
CasinoCrasher
CasinoCrasher
Joined: Oct 4, 2015
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December 12th, 2015 at 8:01:40 AM permalink
Quote: Mission146

No.

You could create a system that generates tons of small wins for infrequent huge losses. Alternatively, you could trade off tons of small losses for infrequent big wins. Played out, though, the expectation would still be $0.00.



It is often said that the reason you can't win in the long run against a casino game such as craps is the house advantage. Based on what your saying, the house advantage has nothing to do with not being able to beat the game in the long run, the root cause is that there isn't a players advantage.

Thanks,

Derek
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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December 12th, 2015 at 8:24:29 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoCrasher

It is often said that the reason you can't win in the long run against a casino game such as craps is the house advantage. Based on what your saying, the house advantage has nothing to do with not being able to beat the game in the long run, the root cause is that there isn't a players advantage.

Thanks,

Derek



Derek, you have circular logic going on with your thinking. I think everybody can see that, I hope you can too.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
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December 12th, 2015 at 8:35:03 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoCrasher

It is often said that the reason you can't win in the long run against a casino game such as craps is the house advantage. Based on what your saying, the house advantage has nothing to do with not being able to beat the game in the long run, the root cause is that there isn't a players advantage.

Thanks,

Derek



As OG said. The House Edge means the amount of the house advantage against players with optimum play, over the long run. The opposite of the house advantage is a player advantage, or a set of circumstances that negates the house edge. The circumstances might be affected by marketing offers, game design flaws, counting blackjack, dealer errors, the players not making the best play on every hand, cheating by either the players or the house, many other things. If there isn't a players advantage, it's the same thing as saying there is a house advantage.

Mission was saying that nothing you're suggesting doing would affect the House Edge; it's always there against him. The bet structuring being examined would result in a net gain of nothing over the house. So with a 50/50 game, you're still in a 50/50 game.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
CasinoCrasher
CasinoCrasher
Joined: Oct 4, 2015
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December 12th, 2015 at 9:49:05 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

As OG said. The House Edge means the amount of the house advantage against players with optimum play, over the long run. The opposite of the house advantage is a player advantage, or a set of circumstances that negates the house edge. The circumstances might be affected by marketing offers, game design flaws, counting blackjack, dealer errors, the players not making the best play on every hand, cheating by either the players or the house, many other things. If there isn't a players advantage, it's the same thing as saying there is a house advantage.

Mission was saying that nothing you're suggesting doing would affect the House Edge; it's always there against him. The bet structuring being examined would result in a net gain of nothing over the house. So with a 50/50 game, you're still in a 50/50 game.



Okay, thanks. This makes sense, the point I was trying to clear up is simply that the reason you can't win in the long run isn't that a betting system can't overcome a certain house advantage, it is that a betting system can't overcome ANY advantage, even if the game were fair.
AxelWolf
AxelWolf
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December 12th, 2015 at 10:07:16 AM permalink
Quote: CasinoCrasher

Okay, thanks. This makes sense, the point I was trying to clear up is simply that the reason you can't win in the long run isn't that a betting system can't overcome a certain house advantage, it is that a betting system can't overcome ANY advantage, even if the game were fair.

Betting systems don't work period. Sometimes you can get lucky and win, and sometimes you lose immediately. They all fail in the long run.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪

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