richbailey86
• Posts: 325
Joined: May 8, 2014
April 30th, 2015 at 5:29:56 PM permalink
hello,

resorts world has "organic craps"

big dice in a glass bubble that bounce

they are not "real" dice, but oversized dice

my question is since it is random can it be considered real craps? number wise....

still the same probabilities of rolling certain combinations?

http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1334712!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/racino.jpg
An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government. – Ron Paul
Tanko
• Posts: 1200
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
April 30th, 2015 at 6:57:14 PM permalink
Quote: richbailey86

resorts world has "organic craps"

big dice in a glass bubble that bounce

I played their machines two years ago.

At the time, a few players were doing well, betting large, mostly with place bets, lay bets and hardways.

There seemed to be more back to back numbers than expected, and that's what they were looking for.

If the seven rolled, for example, they would lay some numbers for one roll, hoping for a back to back seven.

The machines show the last twenty hands or so, and I recorded 1450 rolls over a few visits.

I ran the 1450 rolls in Wincraps first with a single PL bet per hand, and then a single DP bet per hand:

These are the unscientific results:

Starting Bankroll=\$1000

\$15 PL 2X odds: High=\$2,371, End=\$1573, Low=\$910

\$15 DP 2X odds: High=1,090, End=0 Busted in 318 rolls.

I was there a few months ago and I saw they removed the Sic Bo die from one of the machines.

I know one of the regulars hit them pretty hard about eight months ago. That might be the machine.

So, if you do play there, you might consider playing only the machines with the third die, and staying away from the Don'ts.

Better yet, go to Mohegan Sun and have fun in a real casino.
Frogger
• Posts: 163
Joined: Jun 26, 2013
April 30th, 2015 at 7:08:43 PM permalink
This is freaking hilarious. The dice are random just like in regular craps. Hahahhahahahhahahahah
darkoz
• Posts: 11554
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
April 30th, 2015 at 8:32:24 PM permalink
The dice aren't quite regular.

Here are two incidents I witnessed at Resorts World.

There was a woman who played pass line. Large bets. The odd thing was she didn't seem to care about the bets and she ALWAYS sat at the same seat, the seat on the right where the five seat side is (the other has only four seats). She stood on her smartphone/tablet all the time. I mean non-stop. She hardly looked at the game even just hitting repeat bet when necessary.

After two weeks of her being there every day, security surrounded her and insisted she come with them. AND, the first thing they did when she stood up was swipe her tablet. I heard she had figured out how to beat the game using her tablet but I couldn't see how.

Then a few weeks later I was there when the dice landed cocked - one die was tilted against the other and the wall so that no decision could be made. After waiting for twenty minutes a techie came over and opened the panel at the SAME seat that woman had been sitting at. He pulled out a keyboard and after punching in something, I witnessed the die that was stuck wobble on its own so that it landed and corrected itself.

I asked the techie about it and he said there were microchips in each side of the die which is how the computer read the outcomes. It scanned the microchip based on the side it had landed on and then made the appropriate payouts. By sending a signal to the microchip, he caused the die to wriggle/vibrate so that it could correct itself without opening the units bubble.

It suddenly clicked what that woman had been doing. She must have been sending a signal to the microchips from her tablet. She always needed that seat so proximity must have been part of it. I guess the casino got wind of it by measuring signal frequencies that were being sent or perhaps there was another way they figured it out.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Frogger
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April 30th, 2015 at 9:09:36 PM permalink
Did you witness her winning gobs and gobs of money?
darkoz
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April 30th, 2015 at 10:28:14 PM permalink
Quote: Frogger

Did you witness her winning gobs and gobs of money?

I wasn't keeping track of her wins and losses. I was watching her because of her demeanor and actions. Trust me, you would have become suspicious too.

She sat there looking up at the screen to push the repeat bet button and didn't seem concerned about the money in the machine -- only her tablet. But as I said, I didn't have a clue what she could be doing until after security took her in.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
pacomartin
• Posts: 7895
Joined: Jan 14, 2010
April 30th, 2015 at 11:26:27 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

By sending a signal to the microchip, he caused the die to wriggle/vibrate so that it could correct itself without opening the units bubble.

Wasn't he just vibrating the underlying mechanism? He wasn't telling the dice how to fall.
Tanko
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Joined: Apr 22, 2013
May 1st, 2015 at 5:47:44 AM permalink
The tote board for the most part, showed normal probability ranges for the last 100 roll results.

There were occasional spikes here and there, but that is normal.

These players never made PL or Come bets.

One thing they did was to wait for a number and then place big bets on the inside.

The sim for \$44 inside worked out to +910 for the small sample of 1450 rolls that I recorded.

They weren't betting anything near the minimum.
Gabes22
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Joined: Jul 19, 2011
May 1st, 2015 at 6:21:52 AM permalink
So kind of like the dice from that Board Game "Trouble"
A flute with no holes is not a flute, a donut with no holes is a danish
darkoz
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Joined: Dec 22, 2009
May 1st, 2015 at 6:44:22 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Wasn't he just vibrating the underlying mechanism? He wasn't telling the dice how to fall.

That's what you would think but I witnessed it. The underlying mechanism had no visible motion. The die that was already flat had no motion. The cocked die just wobbled on its own and very quickly flattened.

I'm not suggesting he decided which side the die should land. He just vibrated it and it landed based on gravity which would be no different than vibrating the underlying mechanism and waiting for gravity to take it - except then the would be possibly influencing the already decided die.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
richbailey86
• Posts: 325
Joined: May 8, 2014
May 1st, 2015 at 6:51:56 AM permalink
So makes you wonder. Is organic bubble craps random or not?
An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government. – Ron Paul
darkoz
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Joined: Dec 22, 2009
May 1st, 2015 at 7:08:15 AM permalink
I also witnessed in the Resorts World the following incident with Baccarat.

This machine has an electronic arm which slides ala a dealers arm, each card, flipping it over so the players can view it.

Anyway, quite a few people were playing one machine when the arm suddenly locked up and froze. The card it was turning over, the last one in the deal never made it to the tray but it was visible so no one said anything. The game came to its conclusion.

THEN, everyone was shocked when the next game began! We watched as the video representation of the game kept dealing cards, taking bets and operating like normal just sans flipping over any real physical cards.

The techie didn't come to fix it while I was there. Later I questioned one about it and he told me there were microchips in each playing card. After the deck is randomly shuffled, the computer pre-reads all the cards so it already knows the outcome of the full decks of playing.

Again, not suggesting there is any cheating going on but I certainly see how its possible an inside job could work.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Tanko
• Posts: 1200
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
May 1st, 2015 at 11:28:26 AM permalink
Quote: richbailey86

So makes you wonder. Is organic bubble craps random or not?

Who wants randomness when they are playing Craps?

If you're trying to win a number, the last thing you need is randomness.

You want to defy probability.

You want mojo.
100xOdds
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Joined: Feb 5, 2012
May 1st, 2015 at 5:01:44 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Wasn't he just vibrating the underlying mechanism? He wasn't telling the dice how to fall.

I'm also surprised the machine didn't just say 'no roll' and begin to bounce again for another roll.

that happened to me.
the die leaned up against either the edge of the glass or the edge of another die (don't remember) in a 45 degree angle.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
richbailey86
• Posts: 325
Joined: May 8, 2014
May 9th, 2015 at 4:04:33 AM permalink
Played the organic craps last night

Doubled the bankroll

I dont see the machine being rigged I was the only one there

And by the way, the hour i played the field hit the most

Tripled 12 twice
An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government. – Ron Paul
Tanko
• Posts: 1200
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
May 9th, 2015 at 5:21:47 AM permalink
Quote: richbailey86

Played the organic craps last night

When MIlton Hershey looked out his office window during the Depression, and saw five new machines on the floor, he asked his COO what they were doing there.

The COO informed him, the five machines could each do the work of 100 workers.

Mr. Hershey then ordered his COO , "Get rid of the machines, and hire more people".

That's one reason I but Hershey chocolate.

Those robots at RW take the place of 100 workers.

That's one reason I no longer go there.
100xOdds
• Posts: 4350
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
May 9th, 2015 at 6:50:36 AM permalink
Quote: Tanko

When MIlton Hershey looked out his office window during the Depression, and saw five new machines on the floor, he asked his COO what they were doing there.

The COO informed him, the five machines could each do the work of 100 workers.

Mr. Hershey then ordered his COO , "Get rid of the machines, and hire more people".

That's one reason I but Hershey chocolate.

I no longer buy Hershey's because of this:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/kerry-trueman/like-oil-for-chocolate_b_46693.html

Apparently, we Americans are too stupid to tell the difference between real chocolate and the cheap, waxy "chocolatey" concoctions that food manufacturers fabricate out of artificial sweeteners, milk substitutes, and partially hydrogenated oils (i.e. those toxic trans fats).
Or so the Chocolate Manufacturers Association is hoping.

They are lobbying the FDA to change the legal definition of chocolate to let them substitute...

Hershey's is a part of the Chocolate Manufacturers Association.

F U Hershey's!
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Boz
• Posts: 5701
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
May 9th, 2015 at 7:42:52 AM permalink
Quote: Tanko

When MIlton Hershey looked out his office window during the Depression, and saw five new machines on the floor, he asked his COO what they were doing there.

The COO informed him, the five machines could each do the work of 100 workers.

Mr. Hershey then ordered his COO , "Get rid of the machines, and hire more people".

That's one reason I but Hershey chocolate.

Those robots at RW take the place of 100 workers.

That's one reason I no longer go there.

And Milton is long gone. I live near Hershey and most of the jobs left and went to Mexico years ago. Sure it happens everywhere but until Americans start to punish companies like Hershey by not purchasing the products, it will never change. I am no Union fan by any means, but the reality is Americans have shown over and over we just dont care where something is made or who makes it. As I type this I am wanting a Hershey Bar with Almonds, so yes count me as one of those not willing to boycott them.
Tanko
• Posts: 1200
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
May 9th, 2015 at 9:03:54 AM permalink
Blame George H. Bush, Clinton and NAFTA for sending those jobs to Mexico.

Bush drafted it, and Clinton signed it.

Much different men.

Much different time.
Frogger
• Posts: 163
Joined: Jun 26, 2013
May 9th, 2015 at 9:21:38 AM permalink
Quote: Tanko

Those robots at RW take the place of 100 workers.

That's one reason I no longer go there.

"No longer go there"? They've never had hand-dealt games, that's well known, why did you go there in the first place?
Tanko
• Posts: 1200
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
May 9th, 2015 at 12:47:55 PM permalink
Quote: Frogger

"No longer go there"? They've never had hand-dealt games, that's well known, why did you go there in the first place?

As I stated, "That's one reason I no longer go there".

It's not the only reason I no longer go there.

As far as the robots are concerned;

My view at the time was that the machines were operating where no jobs existed before, and the technology created higher paying tech jobs for a net increase in employment.

My opinion changed when CT and AC laid off more than one thousand people while Robot World was flourishing with a relative skeleton crew.

Lots of those jobs were lost due to competition from RW.

It represents a small part of a much larger picture.

Ten Years From Now
100xOdds
• Posts: 4350
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
May 9th, 2015 at 2:11:02 PM permalink
Quote: Tanko

As I stated, "That's one reason I no longer go there".

It's not the only reason I no longer go there.

As far as the robots are concerned;

My view at the time was that the machines were operating where no jobs existed before, and the technology created higher paying tech jobs for a net increase in employment.

My opinion changed when CT and AC laid off more than one thousand people while Robot World was flourishing with a relative skeleton crew.

Lots of those jobs were lost due to competition from RW.

It represents a small part of a much larger picture.

Ten Years From Now

um.. u know table games are illegal in Resorts world.

but e-Craps is considered a slot machine, thus allowed.

still have no idea why you're ranting over Resorts world taking away dealers jobs.

Resorts world NEVER had dealers to being with from Day 1. They would be violating NYS gaming commission if they did.
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
Tanko
• Posts: 1200
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
May 10th, 2015 at 2:25:18 AM permalink
Quote: 100xOdds

... table games are illegal in Resorts world.

but e-Craps is considered a slot machine, thus allowed.

Resorts world NEVER had dealers to being with from Day 1. They would be violating NYS gaming commission if they did.

I agree with you that table games are illegal at Resorts World.

But they have them anyway.

The fact that they are not using dealers does not make them legal.

NYS law does not bar dealers.

Adding dealers would not make their table games and more illegal than they already are.

Just less profitable.

What the law does bar, is gambling except lotteries operated by the State.

Electronic table games and slot machines do not qualify under the law.

Only Video Lottery Terminals are legal.

The racinos unexpectedly circumvented the law and installed electronic tables games.

Unlike VLT's, these games are not connected to a main server that determines the hand or roll outcome.

They are not considered lottery machines.

The NYS Court of Appeals also ruled these games do not constitute a valid lottery operated by the State.

The State allows them to remain in operation anyway, due to their profitability.

NYS Law does not even require these games to be random.

Circumventing the Law
100xOdds
• Posts: 4350
Joined: Feb 5, 2012
May 10th, 2015 at 6:53:47 AM permalink
Quote: Tanko

I agree with you that table games are illegal at Resorts World.

But they have them anyway.

The fact that they are not using dealers does not make them legal.

NYS law does not bar dealers.

Adding dealers would not make their table games and more illegal than they already are.

Just less profitable.

WTF?
wow.. ok.. I'm done w/this conversation.

and you're on my ignore list for being a troll
Craps is paradise (Pair of dice). Lets hear it for the SpeedCount Mathletes :)
darkoz
• Posts: 11554
Joined: Dec 22, 2009
May 10th, 2015 at 7:28:38 AM permalink
Quote: Tanko

I agree with you that table games are illegal at Resorts World.

But they have them anyway.

The fact that they are not using dealers does not make them legal.

NYS law does not bar dealers.

Adding dealers would not make their table games and more illegal than they already are.

Just less profitable.

What the law does bar, is gambling except lotteries operated by the State.

Electronic table games and slot machines do not qualify under the law.

Only Video Lottery Terminals are legal.

The racinos unexpectedly circumvented the law and installed electronic tables games.

Unlike VLT's, these games are not connected to a main server that determines the hand or roll outcome.

They are not considered lottery machines.

The NYS Court of Appeals also ruled these games do not constitute a valid lottery operated by the State.

The State allows them to remain in operation anyway, due to their profitability.

NYS Law does not even require these games to be random.

Circumventing the Law

That article misinterprets the law about the off-site computer. NYS law says the off-site computer must be in control OF the games, NOT CONTROL the games.

It may sound like the same but it is not. A dealer may be in control of the roulette ball BUT not be able to control its outcome. Likewise, the computers controlling all the lottery games in NYS do not CONTROL the outcomes. THAT part is completely random and that is where the daily news article misinterprets the legal definitions.

One of the NYS legal definitions is that a game cannot be operated by human hands -- so guess what -- Dealers are illegal in NYC because they operate the game by touching and operating the game with human hands.

You can read more about it in my article (quick plug here but it was written for this site) here -- https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/other-casinos/20742-a-tale-of-the-hustling-wars/
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Deck007
• Posts: 344
Joined: Mar 3, 2014
May 10th, 2015 at 10:34:05 AM permalink
I agree with darkoz on this.
Tanko your link "Circumventing the Law" is your own invention and not the actual title of the article.
I am not a lawyer but arguments are normally about Interpretation of the Law.
To read your title would mean there is consensus on how the law should be Interpreted in the first place.
Whatever the legalese is there is always discretion on how the Executive Branch chose to handle such matters i.e. ignore it, or act on it.
richbailey86
• Posts: 325
Joined: May 8, 2014
May 10th, 2015 at 6:57:11 PM permalink
One thing i want to mention

When i was playing the bubble craps the lady next to me was observing the dice. She was not betting. She was inputting the info into her phone

Seems silly
An idea whose time has come cannot be stopped by any army or any government. – Ron Paul
Tanko
• Posts: 1200
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
May 10th, 2015 at 7:01:16 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

NYS law says the off-site computer must be in control OF the games, NOT CONTROL the games.

One of the NYS legal definitions is that a game cannot be operated by human hands -- so guess what -- Dealers are illegal in NYC because they operate the game by touching and operating the game with human hands.

I cannot find any reference to any of the above in NYS Video Lottery Gaming Law which governs racino operations.

Or here: NYS Gaming Commmission

I can not find any mention of off-site 'Control of Games', or any definition of any kind regarding operation or touching by human hands.