A Tale of the Hustling Wars
January 21st, 2015 at 9:30:45 AM
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About fifteen minutes from NYC lies a casino called Empire City but which many residents simply refer to as Yonkers! It is connected to the Yonkers Raceway complete with viewing stand for the horses. It opened a few years prior to Aqueduct's Resorts World Casino but that one gets touted as NYC's first casino because that one is actually inside city limits.
Prior to the opening of Resorts World, Empire had very little hustling within its walls. There simply were few opportunities. All the Video Poker machines are class II and work more like slot machines. There are no card counters in NYC! The reason for this is simple, there is no blackjack in NYC. Blackjack here is illegal!
In fact, not only is blackjack illegal, but so are casinos(a resolution to finally build casinos was passed and three are in the initial stages but they will be the first casinos in NYS). You see, Resorts World and Empire City casinos are NOT casinos!
HUH?
This is despite the fact the word CASINO boldly and brightly adorns the façade of every entry point into these facilities. Aside from complete false advertising or at least the world's most ridiculous method of admitting something you are when you are not, the fact is these gambling dens are under NYS law not casinos.
It is important to understand just what NYS law dictated until the recent referendum was passed regarding gambling. Laws were passed to prohibit gambling in NYS decades ago. Overturning these laws took several years but in the meantime, purveyors of gambling couldn't wait to tap the market. So Empire and then Resorts World were opened. But wait, what about the law?
Well, NYS has had their lottery system for decades so gambling laws were fashioned to keep those while preventing traditional casinos. Under NYS law, no game can be operated where human hands come into contact with the game itself. A dealer cannot spin the ball at roulette, a player cannot throw the dice at Craps, neither player nor dealer can touch the cards at Blackjack or at Baccarat. This seemed to eliminate any chance of live gambling in NYS when these laws were formulated. Unfortunately, they didn't foresee the emergence of automation. Resorts World and Empire City simply installed completely electronic games of roulette and Craps and Baccarat. No human hands touch the game! The letter of the law is upheld even if the spirit is not!
There are other law issues as well. NYS lawmakers wanted to define gambling that was legal versus illegal. So, a legal form of gambling was their lottery system already in place. Lottery was defined as any game which utilizes a ticket or voucher and where the outcome is determined for multiple parties or players simultaneously.
Since Roulette and Craps and other casino games utilized chips when these were written, that seemed to spell the death knell for them. Once again, they failed to foresee how human ingenuity and greed can circumvent anything. NYS state has no gaming chips in their casinos since that is illegal. Instead, the casinos all use vouchers which are legally issued by the State Lottery Commission. Their logo is on all of them. Vouchers for cashing in and out, vouchers for distribution of free-play, etc. After all, vouchers are an established form of lottery. And what about Roulette and Craps and Baccarat? Well, those games are all where the outcome is determined simultaneously for multiple people. Unfortunately, Blackjack is not. Blackjack, each person has a different outcome determined for each individual player. Once again, Blackjack is illegal.
But so are casinos. Hence, Resorts World and Yonkers are officially, not Casinos. They are Video Lottery Facilities. It says so on every voucher that is printed, it is said so on the NYS lottery website and it is even stated by employees. Apparently, the signs on the front of the building that say casino are simply lying.
All this is important to understand why there was not much hustling going on in Empire Casino. Their promotions were limited to prizes for a car or monthly free-play offers based on your ratings. But then, Resorts World opened and not only became their primary NYC competition, they actually offered great incentives.
Several times a month, Resorts World offered the chance to have same day free-play simply for earning points on your players card. Generally, it was earn ten points and you would earn ten dollars in free-play. Neither of these two casinos that are not casinos had a hotel or shopping center attached so in lieu of any real comps to hand out, free-play was the only item of substance to offer.
Empire resisted handing out same-day earned free-play but they finally realized they were losing the battle to Resorts World by being so stubborn. People were flocking to Resorts for the opportunity there. And so, Empire started having their earned free-play days as well. And business started building up again.
And all of this preamble and history brings us to the hustlers. Because, finally, there was a golden opportunity for hustlers to emerge.
To be continued
Prior to the opening of Resorts World, Empire had very little hustling within its walls. There simply were few opportunities. All the Video Poker machines are class II and work more like slot machines. There are no card counters in NYC! The reason for this is simple, there is no blackjack in NYC. Blackjack here is illegal!
In fact, not only is blackjack illegal, but so are casinos(a resolution to finally build casinos was passed and three are in the initial stages but they will be the first casinos in NYS). You see, Resorts World and Empire City casinos are NOT casinos!
HUH?
This is despite the fact the word CASINO boldly and brightly adorns the façade of every entry point into these facilities. Aside from complete false advertising or at least the world's most ridiculous method of admitting something you are when you are not, the fact is these gambling dens are under NYS law not casinos.
It is important to understand just what NYS law dictated until the recent referendum was passed regarding gambling. Laws were passed to prohibit gambling in NYS decades ago. Overturning these laws took several years but in the meantime, purveyors of gambling couldn't wait to tap the market. So Empire and then Resorts World were opened. But wait, what about the law?
Well, NYS has had their lottery system for decades so gambling laws were fashioned to keep those while preventing traditional casinos. Under NYS law, no game can be operated where human hands come into contact with the game itself. A dealer cannot spin the ball at roulette, a player cannot throw the dice at Craps, neither player nor dealer can touch the cards at Blackjack or at Baccarat. This seemed to eliminate any chance of live gambling in NYS when these laws were formulated. Unfortunately, they didn't foresee the emergence of automation. Resorts World and Empire City simply installed completely electronic games of roulette and Craps and Baccarat. No human hands touch the game! The letter of the law is upheld even if the spirit is not!
There are other law issues as well. NYS lawmakers wanted to define gambling that was legal versus illegal. So, a legal form of gambling was their lottery system already in place. Lottery was defined as any game which utilizes a ticket or voucher and where the outcome is determined for multiple parties or players simultaneously.
Since Roulette and Craps and other casino games utilized chips when these were written, that seemed to spell the death knell for them. Once again, they failed to foresee how human ingenuity and greed can circumvent anything. NYS state has no gaming chips in their casinos since that is illegal. Instead, the casinos all use vouchers which are legally issued by the State Lottery Commission. Their logo is on all of them. Vouchers for cashing in and out, vouchers for distribution of free-play, etc. After all, vouchers are an established form of lottery. And what about Roulette and Craps and Baccarat? Well, those games are all where the outcome is determined simultaneously for multiple people. Unfortunately, Blackjack is not. Blackjack, each person has a different outcome determined for each individual player. Once again, Blackjack is illegal.
But so are casinos. Hence, Resorts World and Yonkers are officially, not Casinos. They are Video Lottery Facilities. It says so on every voucher that is printed, it is said so on the NYS lottery website and it is even stated by employees. Apparently, the signs on the front of the building that say casino are simply lying.
All this is important to understand why there was not much hustling going on in Empire Casino. Their promotions were limited to prizes for a car or monthly free-play offers based on your ratings. But then, Resorts World opened and not only became their primary NYC competition, they actually offered great incentives.
Several times a month, Resorts World offered the chance to have same day free-play simply for earning points on your players card. Generally, it was earn ten points and you would earn ten dollars in free-play. Neither of these two casinos that are not casinos had a hotel or shopping center attached so in lieu of any real comps to hand out, free-play was the only item of substance to offer.
Empire resisted handing out same-day earned free-play but they finally realized they were losing the battle to Resorts World by being so stubborn. People were flocking to Resorts for the opportunity there. And so, Empire started having their earned free-play days as well. And business started building up again.
And all of this preamble and history brings us to the hustlers. Because, finally, there was a golden opportunity for hustlers to emerge.
To be continued
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 14th, 2015 at 6:25:43 AM
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Can you elaborate?
February 14th, 2015 at 7:51:34 AM
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How could you mention EMPIRE and Yonkers and not mention THE MANAGER? Free entertainment at the races
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_kj-QbxILc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGRRL6Y-jds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_kj-QbxILc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGRRL6Y-jds
February 14th, 2015 at 8:59:31 AM
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Quote: FroggerCan you elaborate?
LOL, you know I was so immersed in getting something prepped for a film festival, I completely forgot about this thread. Yeah, I will get the second part up in the next few days.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 14th, 2015 at 9:01:40 AM
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Quote: coilmanHow could you mention EMPIRE and Yonkers and not mention THE MANAGER? Free entertainment at the races
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_kj-QbxILc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGRRL6Y-jds
Never saw this guy and thank god I didn't. Ewww, I certainly would not have included him in a tale of the hustling wars. I refer to hustling at casino gambling not hustling for change in front of the casino, lol.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 14th, 2015 at 4:14:44 PM
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Looking forward to it!
February 14th, 2015 at 7:21:56 PM
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Here is the second part:
Resorts World casino introduced one day of earning free play for points in February of 2012 - Valentines Day was earn 14 points and receive 14 dollars in free-play. Once you had earned those points, all you had to do was walk to the kiosk and print out the free-play voucher which would show up in your account.
Nothing was offered in March but the success of that one day ushered in weekly offers in April. And almost every month from then on offered anywhere from four to fourteen days of free-play for points earning.
Empire Casino was feeling the heat. They had no such offers at the time and business was clearly dropping. At the least, they saw they had to compete so they began adding free-play for points on a weekly basis at their casino as well.
It didn't take a rocket scientist to predict that husbands would bring their wives cards as well. After all, if you are earning free-play and already have your offer, why not get a second offer? Just flip your card out and flip in your wives card. Hell, Half the population at the casino was using a spouse or parent or siblings card.
Enter the card flippers!
Teams of hustlers, many from the Asian population but others as well began using multiple players cards to obtain their additional free-play offers. And if you've been wondering what was so important about the information in the first part of this tale of the hustling wars, it was to show just how much over a barrel the casinos were being held by the hustlers.
Remember, there are no live dealers or live games in any NYC casinos. Just electronic Baccarat and Craps, Sic Bo and Roullette. All perfectly suited oppositional games for earning points with no live supervision.
Swarms of hustlers hit the Craps and Baccarat tables, players gambling on opposite sides. These machines gave points for every dollar wagered. So Craps was the biggest target. Bet $30 on pass vs. $30 on Don't pass. Take $1 protection on the 12. Make the point, take max odds and you've earned the points you need for free-play. Combined, that's $20 in free-play for the cost of a buck.
Entire hustling teams would swarm into the casino at 8Am or 10Am opening to hit the tables. Legit players couldn't even get a seat. These hustlers were using ten, twenty, fifty, even a hundred cards. They became known as the card flippers because they couldn't risk losing their seat. Even though there are several tables and probably over a hundred seats, when you are competing for space against the other hustlers plus the legit players and with so many cards to turn around, you had to stay glued to the seat. So, they would brazenly stay seated and flip one card out for the other. Many times in full view of the cameras which apparently were not watching or couldn't tell the husbands using one of their wives cards from the card flipping teams.
Worst case which I heard was at Empire was a card flipper caught with 700 players cards.
Another woman had over fifty legit cards all in her own name! She had one of those difficult Asian names and she purposefully spelled it phonetically fifty different ways. Ex. Caio, Show, Xaio, Sho, Cho, Schow, Shaw, etc. and that was just her first name!
They led her out in handcuffs - not for multiple players cards but for ID fraud!
But most of the card flippers were legitimately using cards from their family and friends.
Yonkers needed to put a stop to it. First thing they did was to disallow printing of the free-play from the kiosks! Now you had to show ID at the desk to a live representative.
That didn't last too long. With an average of ten thousand players at any given time on a crowded day, having ten thousand people waiting on line for ID to be checked was ridiculous. After two weeks of players bitching that they were waiting up to two hours to get their ten bucks in free-play, Empire re-instated the Kiosks.
Next they started chasing the actual players down. And they caught and banned quite a few. This caused a new set of problems.
First, the banned patrons didn't always hand over all their cards. The very next day, they would have some confederate back in using whatever cards had not been confiscated. With one hundred cards, we're talking a thousand dollars in free-play for approximately one hundred dollars.
Secondly, it wasn't long before the casino got hit with a lawsuit by at least one client for imprisonment. After all, the police were never called and Empire (and Resorts World, as well,) are still in growing pains. They have not been sued yet by the likes of someone comparable to Bob Nersessian. If you have not broken any laws (and using another persons players card with their permission breaks no laws) then you can't imprison someone even if its to eventually bar that person.
Empire was slowly being sliced to death by a thousand razor cuts!
So, they finally did the unthinkable. With hundreds of electronic table games, they announced that none of those games were going to earn points anymore. Screw the thousands of legit players.
Sure there are other casinos that disallow credit for gambling at their electronic offerings however those casinos give their players the option of gambling for ratings at their live offerings of the same game. At this time in Yonkers at Empire Casino, there is no rating system for points at any Roulette, Craps, Baccarat or Sic Bo table games anywhere on the facility.
And of course, this measure has worked. The card flipping teams are gone. But has the casino also turned away their legit players who are discovering you get no comps for any table games? Only time will tell.
And that is the current status of this tale of the Hustling Wars.
Resorts World casino introduced one day of earning free play for points in February of 2012 - Valentines Day was earn 14 points and receive 14 dollars in free-play. Once you had earned those points, all you had to do was walk to the kiosk and print out the free-play voucher which would show up in your account.
Nothing was offered in March but the success of that one day ushered in weekly offers in April. And almost every month from then on offered anywhere from four to fourteen days of free-play for points earning.
Empire Casino was feeling the heat. They had no such offers at the time and business was clearly dropping. At the least, they saw they had to compete so they began adding free-play for points on a weekly basis at their casino as well.
It didn't take a rocket scientist to predict that husbands would bring their wives cards as well. After all, if you are earning free-play and already have your offer, why not get a second offer? Just flip your card out and flip in your wives card. Hell, Half the population at the casino was using a spouse or parent or siblings card.
Enter the card flippers!
Teams of hustlers, many from the Asian population but others as well began using multiple players cards to obtain their additional free-play offers. And if you've been wondering what was so important about the information in the first part of this tale of the hustling wars, it was to show just how much over a barrel the casinos were being held by the hustlers.
Remember, there are no live dealers or live games in any NYC casinos. Just electronic Baccarat and Craps, Sic Bo and Roullette. All perfectly suited oppositional games for earning points with no live supervision.
Swarms of hustlers hit the Craps and Baccarat tables, players gambling on opposite sides. These machines gave points for every dollar wagered. So Craps was the biggest target. Bet $30 on pass vs. $30 on Don't pass. Take $1 protection on the 12. Make the point, take max odds and you've earned the points you need for free-play. Combined, that's $20 in free-play for the cost of a buck.
Entire hustling teams would swarm into the casino at 8Am or 10Am opening to hit the tables. Legit players couldn't even get a seat. These hustlers were using ten, twenty, fifty, even a hundred cards. They became known as the card flippers because they couldn't risk losing their seat. Even though there are several tables and probably over a hundred seats, when you are competing for space against the other hustlers plus the legit players and with so many cards to turn around, you had to stay glued to the seat. So, they would brazenly stay seated and flip one card out for the other. Many times in full view of the cameras which apparently were not watching or couldn't tell the husbands using one of their wives cards from the card flipping teams.
Worst case which I heard was at Empire was a card flipper caught with 700 players cards.
Another woman had over fifty legit cards all in her own name! She had one of those difficult Asian names and she purposefully spelled it phonetically fifty different ways. Ex. Caio, Show, Xaio, Sho, Cho, Schow, Shaw, etc. and that was just her first name!
They led her out in handcuffs - not for multiple players cards but for ID fraud!
But most of the card flippers were legitimately using cards from their family and friends.
Yonkers needed to put a stop to it. First thing they did was to disallow printing of the free-play from the kiosks! Now you had to show ID at the desk to a live representative.
That didn't last too long. With an average of ten thousand players at any given time on a crowded day, having ten thousand people waiting on line for ID to be checked was ridiculous. After two weeks of players bitching that they were waiting up to two hours to get their ten bucks in free-play, Empire re-instated the Kiosks.
Next they started chasing the actual players down. And they caught and banned quite a few. This caused a new set of problems.
First, the banned patrons didn't always hand over all their cards. The very next day, they would have some confederate back in using whatever cards had not been confiscated. With one hundred cards, we're talking a thousand dollars in free-play for approximately one hundred dollars.
Secondly, it wasn't long before the casino got hit with a lawsuit by at least one client for imprisonment. After all, the police were never called and Empire (and Resorts World, as well,) are still in growing pains. They have not been sued yet by the likes of someone comparable to Bob Nersessian. If you have not broken any laws (and using another persons players card with their permission breaks no laws) then you can't imprison someone even if its to eventually bar that person.
Empire was slowly being sliced to death by a thousand razor cuts!
So, they finally did the unthinkable. With hundreds of electronic table games, they announced that none of those games were going to earn points anymore. Screw the thousands of legit players.
Sure there are other casinos that disallow credit for gambling at their electronic offerings however those casinos give their players the option of gambling for ratings at their live offerings of the same game. At this time in Yonkers at Empire Casino, there is no rating system for points at any Roulette, Craps, Baccarat or Sic Bo table games anywhere on the facility.
And of course, this measure has worked. The card flipping teams are gone. But has the casino also turned away their legit players who are discovering you get no comps for any table games? Only time will tell.
And that is the current status of this tale of the Hustling Wars.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 14th, 2015 at 7:43:28 PM
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Quote: darkozAbout fifteen minutes from NYC lies a casino called Empire City but which many residents simply refer to as Yonkers! It is connected to the Yonkers Raceway complete with viewing stand for the horses. It opened a few years prior to Aqueduct's Resorts World Casino but that one gets touted as NYC's first casino because that one is actually inside city limits.
Prior to the opening of Resorts World, Empire had very little hustling within its walls. There simply were few opportunities. All the Video Poker machines are class II and work more like slot machines. There are no card counters in NYC! The reason for this is simple, there is no blackjack in NYC. Blackjack here is illegal!
In fact, not only is blackjack illegal, but so are casinos(a resolution to finally build casinos was passed and three are in the initial stages but they will be the first casinos in NYS). You see, Resorts World and Empire City casinos are NOT casinos!
HUH? ............................................
To be continued
Anything about Resort/Genting would trigger a response from me.
I would not pay too much attention whether it is a casino or not. Is it not commonly referred to as Racino.
It is a class 2 license and no human hand can be used.
Credit must go to Resort because at the bidding time for the Aqueduct racino nobody like a major casino operator would touch it.
The only other bidder offered $100M with conditions to the state that is laughable. Resort offered $300M up front without any conditions.
Resort did wonders and became the highest revenue gaming outlet in the US.
That brings me to question whether the class 3 traditional casino is an outdated model in the US. Most casinos in the US are basically slot parlours. Get about 75% of the revenue from slots. BJ on other games don't make much money, cost a lot to operate and caters to the recreational player or CC. The only think positive I can say about these table games is that they create a buss and critical mass for the casinos.
The US needs to catch up with the rest of the world and in particular Asia. These e-table games for baccarat and roulette have been in use in Asia for many years now. These are for the hard core gamblers and where the real money is made. Like Adelson said about these machines " they are an unbelievable cash cow. You get 60 rounds per hour on these roulette e-table and 8 rounds on the old roulette table with limited player capacity".
Like to hear part 2 of your posting.
February 14th, 2015 at 8:05:57 PM
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Just posted part two above
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
February 14th, 2015 at 8:25:30 PM
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darkoz
We are both posting at the same tme. But you beat me to it by 20 mins.
But sorry I don't understand what you are saying about "Hustling Wars".
Every time a gambler bet on $100 on Bac. the casino earn or win $1.40 and $2.78 on single zero Roulette. The casino cannot get enough players or players to bet $Zillions.
I know Resort here has your photo on your players card. And their surveillance is very good. Playing with somebody else card is a no-no in any casino. I believe it has something to do with Comps.
It happen to me the one time I did this. I told my wife to play the terminal for me as I want to go for a walk/ toilet. I told her just hit the repeat button every round. When I came back 10 mins. later there were 3 or 4 men in suites standing around her and asking her where is Mr. ....
The other thing I find puzzling about your posting is getting free play. You cash out what you have on your card. I don't think anybody here or in the US would play just for free play credits that you are talking about.
We are both posting at the same tme. But you beat me to it by 20 mins.
But sorry I don't understand what you are saying about "Hustling Wars".
Every time a gambler bet on $100 on Bac. the casino earn or win $1.40 and $2.78 on single zero Roulette. The casino cannot get enough players or players to bet $Zillions.
I know Resort here has your photo on your players card. And their surveillance is very good. Playing with somebody else card is a no-no in any casino. I believe it has something to do with Comps.
It happen to me the one time I did this. I told my wife to play the terminal for me as I want to go for a walk/ toilet. I told her just hit the repeat button every round. When I came back 10 mins. later there were 3 or 4 men in suites standing around her and asking her where is Mr. ....
The other thing I find puzzling about your posting is getting free play. You cash out what you have on your card. I don't think anybody here or in the US would play just for free play credits that you are talking about.
