CRAPS ~ DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY ~ DICE PHYSICAL DATA
One of the references in that article looks even more interesting:
Dynamics of Gambling: Origins of Randomness in Mechanical Systems. It goes on my "add to library" list.
Here's the Google Books preview, admittedly missing a lot of content.
The best part is the quote from the book cover: "In summary, the book not only provides a general analysis of random effects in mechanical (engineering) systems, but addresses deep questions concerning the nature of randomness, and gives potentially useful tips for gamblers and the gaming industry."
Quote: MathExtremistthere is nothing random about dice throws. Using a robotic arm allows scientists to test this, but lack of such precision in a casino environment makes the throw unpredictable.
Got a picture of the robotic arm that allows scientists to test this?
I looked around the link but didn't find a photo. If you have one, I would like to see what "they" came up with?
And ditto, thanks for the link.
At this point, it would be a "hoot" to watch even a machine do DI.
Quote: petroglyphI'm not even sure if someone [that didn't work for NASA] could make some kind of mechanical throwing device that would produce repeated results?
At this point, it would be a "hoot" to watch even a machine do DI.
Repeated results aren't that hard if the initial conditions are well-controlled. Sliding two dice down a 30-degree ramp at a height of 12" above the table should yield reasonably predictable results, and the test setups for these scientific papers are designed to encourage repeatability. The question of producing repeatability when you have to throw the dice by hand, down a 12' table with lots of other obstacles like chips and hands (and rubberized deflectors) isn't something that's scientifically interesting because a wide variation in initial conditions means that the experiment itself isn't repeatable. Dynamical systems theory (chaos theory) is concerned with "sensitive dependence to initial conditions" so an experiment must ensure that initial conditions can be varied by only a slight degree to see whether the outcome is widely distinct. If you were to do a slow-motion capture of a shooter's release over 100 throws, you'd likely see 100 different combinations of initial trajectory, velocity, and rotational energy.
Edit: that should have been 12' (foot, not inch) table.
Quote: MathExtremistRepeated results aren't that hard if the initial conditions are well-controlled.
The Organic Craps bubble is a close substitute for repeatable conditions..
Release height, initial velocity, time of roll, surface area, surface friction and energy are constant.
The only non-repeatable condition is the position of the dice at the start of the roll.
Quote: MathExtremistQuote: petroglyphI'm not even sure if someone [that didn't work for NASA] could make some kind of mechanical throwing device that would produce repeated results?
At this point, it would be a "hoot" to watch even a machine do DI.
Repeated results aren't that hard if the initial conditions are well-controlled. Sliding two dice down a 30-degree ramp at a height of 12" above the table should yield reasonably predictable results, and the test setups for these scientific papers are designed to encourage repeatability. The question of producing repeatability when you have to throw the dice by hand, down a 12" table with lots of other obstacles like chips and hands (and rubberized deflectors) isn't something that's scientifically interesting because a wide variation in initial conditions means that the experiment itself isn't repeatable. Dynamical systems theory (chaos theory) is concerned with "sensitive dependence to initial conditions" so an experiment must ensure that initial conditions can be varied by only a slight degree to see whether the outcome is widely distinct. If you were to do a slow-motion capture of a shooter's release over 100 throws, you'd likely see 100 different combinations of initial trajectory, velocity, and rotational energy.
You are right. My mind goes right to how can I benefit on a craps table. The link didn't really insinuate a craps game or mention the pyramids, chips or other objects.
I thought it would be entertaining to see a robot or machine do "it".
I have a slow motion capture device and as far as I can tell, my throws are like snow flakes with no two of them being the same.
Quote: TankoThe Organic Craps bubble is a close substitute for repeatable conditions..
Release height, initial velocity, time of roll, surface area, surface friction and energy are constant.
The only non-repeatable condition is the position of the dice at the start of the roll.
I'm not sure all those are constants, but even supposing they are, the Kapitaniak paper actually discusses a vibrating table:
"The second ... is the case of the vibrating table. The example of a tetrahedron die bouncing on the periodically oscillating table is shown in Figures 7(a) and 7(b). In this case, the motion of the die is not terminated by the energy dissipation during the impacts and the die motion is chaotic."
(Figure 7(b) actually shows a cube, not a tetrahedron). In other words, the science has demonstrated that a table that vibrates regularly is sufficient to render dice outcomes unpredictable.
What ? Have you ever actually watched one?Quote: TankoThe Organic Craps bubble is a close substitute for repeatable conditions..
Release height, initial velocity, time of roll, surface area, surface friction and energy are constant.
The only non-repeatable condition is the position of the dice at the start of the roll.
Quote: AxelWolfWhat ? Have you ever actually watched one?
Yes.
Each roll begins with the same release height, time of roll, surface area, surface friction and energy.
The roll conditions are nearly repeated. Not the results.
You showed me a Video of an advertisement. I disagree they shoot with the same energy each time. Obviously its different than regular craps.Quote: TankoYes.
Each roll begins with the same release height, time of roll, surface area, surface friction and energy.
The roll conditions are nearly repeated. Not the results.
Quote: AxelWolfYou showed me a Video of an advertisement. I disagree they shoot with the same energy each time. Obviously its different than regular craps.
I think if you watch that carefully you'll see the bouncing platform uses irregular vibrations. The paper I linked earlier showed that even with regular vibrations the dice were chaotic, so I don't think this system has a chance of being predictable.
I agree with that.Quote: MathExtremistI think if you watch that carefully you'll see the bouncing platform uses irregular vibrations. The paper I linked earlier showed that even with regular vibrations the dice were chaotic, so I don't think this system has a chance of being predictable.
Quote: champ724trip to the casino today. i played vp i been staying away from craps. But i did go to the table and watch for about an hour. i had the urge but didnt play just was spectating. 4-3 came out every time a 7 came (the last 8 shooters all went out on 4-3). i usually notice 6-1 alot. i wish i would have charted the rolls. i am not exaggerating 4-3 came out 90% of the time a 7 came. i saw 1 6-1 and 5-2 a few times. not one 12 came in the hour and aces came once. the table was horrible the biggest roll was about 9-10 rolls. i know these have to be fixed dice.
Yes, you obviously figured it out by really focusing in on what was truly going on. Your laser-like senses were tuned in as you meticulously studied every roll. As you mentioned "4-3 came out every time", no wait a sec... "4-3 came out 90% of the time". Whoa, hold on.. you saw "6-1 and 5-2 a few times".
Yup, the table was horrible for an hour so your conclusion the dice have to be fixed is the obvious answer. Job well done. Congratulations on finally solving CRAPS - DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY - DICE PHISICAL DATA and for your hard work.
ZCore13
.jpeg "Bohemian"){kind=small}
Quote: champ724when 4-3 comes up 30 times and the other 2 combos come up a handful it appears obvious the dice are set to come up 4's and 3's. no 12 1 time aces 6-1 comes up once. i guarantee the casino uses fixed dice.
Champ, we agree with you. As for the Organic Craps game made by Interblock, it is more computer generated and it is like playing craps or chess against a computer. For reference see the Florida Gaming Commission reports for studies and testimony they did on Interblock that notes it is not a true random game.
The red Bubble Craps dice (made by Aruze) is much more fair than most table games. This is why Bellagio IMO moved it very far away from the regular craps tables recently because you could tell that there were more Points being made on the Bubble Craps game than were being made on all the regular craps tables - mainly due to unbalanced dice being used on the regular craps tables at Bellagio on some days.
Both the Quad and Bellagio in Las Vegas used to have both Bubble Craps versions and you would see at both casinos that the Red dice machine (push button by Aruze) would be very populated or full while the Organic dice machine (white dice) would be empty or with 1 or 2 players. Soon both casinos removed the unpopular (because it was harder to win) Organic Craps machine.
Now we believe Mandalay Bay is the only casino that has the Interblock Organic Craps computer assisted dice game while many, many Las Vegas casinos have the red dice Bubble Craps that employ the more fair red dice, except sweat joints like South Point and The M that had them removed.
interBlock organic craps sometimes has the black 3rd die and sometimes not (Mandalay Bay only has 2 white dice). When it does not have the extra 3rd die to help randomize the dice, the 2 dice outcomes are more controlled by the computer and are NOT truly random. Chart it and check it for yourself.
For instance, try to be the only player on the table with a 2 dice interBlock organic craps machine. Bet only 1 number like a 3 ten times in a row. See how often the dice will try to roll the exact opposite of what you bet - an 11. Try it with other numbers, just observe. What you see is not random, but computer generated results of each die trying to roll to a 5 and a 6 instead of a 1 and a 2 as bet.
The red dice Bubble craps on the other hand is much more random and fair - more fair than regular dice craps.
Quote: TankoAccording to this article, the initial position of the die is more important than symmetry.
"The top face will always be more probable."
Dice Rolls are Not Completely Random
How do we know the dice used in the study were balanced. From MathExtremist's link:
Quote:Precise casino dice havetheir pips drilled, and then filled with the flush with paint of the same density as the acetate used for the dice, so they remain in balance.
They never said they measured the dice. Without verification on a dice balancing caliper, their whole study is flawed.
They very well could have been using these unbalanced dice which show that the 1 is a dominant number:Quote:They show that dice thrown with a 1 on the top are slightly more likely to land as a 1 than as the other values for every type of the various kinds of dice they studied.
Link to Unbalanced Dice Test
All that shows is that Axis Power Dice are unbalanced and, presumably, vulnerable to advantage play. Has anyone tried to use them for his advantage, even in home experiments?Quote: BohemianThey never said they measured the dice. Without verification on a dice balancing caliper, their whole study is flawed. They very well could have been using these unbalanced dice which show that the 1 is a dominant number: Link to Unbalanced Dice Test
Quote: BohemianThey never said they measured the dice. Without verification on a dice balancing caliper, their whole study is flawed. They very well could have been using these unbalanced dice which show that the 1 is a dominant number:
This statement tells me that you didn't actually read the paper and don't comprehend what the study was actually about. It wasn't about testing for bias in dice, it was about testing whether dice behave according to nonlinear dynamics.
As a practical matter, bias testing in dice is a useless exercise. If you find a biased die in a lab, congratulations, that die is biased. If it wasn't used in casino play, so what? That result wouldn't imply anything for any other dice -- in casinos or otherwise. Mathematically, such testing is uninteresting. However a result that die rolls actually do behave chaotically, with deterministic predictability but also sensitive dependence on initial conditions, that's an interesting result that applies to all dice rolls.
You have to remember that the authors of the study are physicists, not gaming regulators. They are interested in advancing the knowledge of how the physical world works, not addressing the far more mundane question of whether some casinos are cheating by using biased dice.
By the way, I hypothesize that if you were to take one of the "biased" dice used in the videos you keep linking to, and a fair, balanced dice from a stick of actual casino dice, and roll each one 1800 times on a casino table (against the back wall from 12 feet away), you would not notice a statistical difference in the observed distributions and that both distributions would fail to reject the null hypothesis that the faces were equally likely. In short, I don't think you could tell the difference in actual play between a die that you *think* is biased and one that you *think* is not.
In other words dice that fail the caliper test do not necessarily generate unfair casino game results. That they do is an assumption that you and the other biased-dice alarmists routinely fall back on, but that assumption has never been verified.
Quote: Zcore13Yes, you obviously figured it out by really focusing in on what was truly going on. Your laser-like senses were tuned in as you meticulously studied every roll. As you mentioned "4-3 came out every time", no wait a sec... "4-3 came out 90% of the time". Whoa, hold on.. you saw "6-1 and 5-2 a few times".
Yup, the table was horrible for an hour so your conclusion the dice have to be fixed is the obvious answer. Job well done. Congratulations on finally solving CRAPS - DICE UNBALANCE MYSTERY - DICE PHISICAL DATA and for your hard work.
ZCore13
ZCORE13, Now I know that you work in a casino in Arizona in Prescott,..Do they even have craps were you work or how about one of these bubble craps machines? Looking forward to your answer!
Quote: SanchoPanzaAll that shows is that Axis Power Dice are unbalanced and, presumably, vulnerable to advantage play. Has anyone tried to use them for his advantage, even in home experiments?Quote: BohemianThey never said they measured the dice. Without verification on a dice balancing caliper, their whole study is flawed. They very well could have been using these unbalanced dice which show that the 1 is a dominant number: Link to Unbalanced Dice Test
Sancho P, your statement is incorrect. These Axis Power Dice dice are made by Midwest, the same company that supplies dice for casinos all over the USA. And yes, we have done home experiments with unbalanced dice and you can gain an advantage. However, if dice can be unbalanced in 26 different weighs (pun intended), what good does it do if you do not know which dice the casino is using that shift on that particular table?
Quote: MathExtremistThis statement tells me that you didn't actually read the paper and don't comprehend what the study was actually about. It wasn't about testing for bias in dice, it was about testing whether dice behave according to nonlinear dynamics.
As a practical matter, bias testing in dice is a useless exercise. If you find a biased die in a lab, congratulations, that die is biased. If it wasn't used in casino play, so what? That result wouldn't imply anything for any other dice -- in casinos or otherwise. Mathematically, such testing is uninteresting. However a result that die rolls actually do behave chaotically, with deterministic predictability but also sensitive dependence on initial conditions, that's an interesting result that applies to all dice rolls.
You have to remember that the authors of the study are physicists
MathExtremist, your post is incorrect and it tells me that you either did not read my post or you did not read the study as I quoted page 3 of the paper. I never said the study was about finding bias in dice, but if they used unbalanced dice in their study, then their findings are flawed:
How do we know the dice used in the study were balanced. From MathExtremist's link:
Quote:Precise casino dice havetheir pips drilled, and then filled with the flush with paint of the same density as the acetate used for the dice, so they remain in balance.
They never said they measured the dice. Without verification on a dice balancing caliper, their whole study is flawed
This is further noted by what the physicists assume again on page 3:
Quote:A die is modeled as a rigid body of homogeneous material,
i.e., the center of mass and the geometrical center are
located in the same point C
The study assumed that the center of mass was balanced without even testing for such - or at least they did not note it in their paper. They did note their assumptions of casino dice being balanced which is incorrect too often.
Any basis for that assertion? It has been posted here without contradiction that the general supplier of dice for U.S. casinos is GPI. At any rate, whoever manufactures them for New Jersey casinos has to meet three pages of exacting specifications detailed in state law.Quote: BohemianThese Axis Power Dice dice are made by Midwest, the same company that supplies dice for casinos all over the USA.
It seems that the record shows that no one, to the best of anyone's knowledge here, has even tried to employ any of the purported "biased" dice in any reportable experiment.Quote: SanchoPanzaAll that shows is that Axis Power Dice are unbalanced and, presumably, vulnerable to advantage play. Has anyone tried to use them for his advantage, even in home experiments?
In reality, all dice have a geometric center that is some distance d>0 from the center of mass. The value of d is a reasonable measure of balance. For example, drugstore dice are decidedly unbalanced. Do you think the results of that study would be any different if they had used drugstore dice?
Also, Midwest Game Supply advertises their dice as certified perfect to tolerances within 1/10,000 of an inch. I think they would be very interested in learning you were claiming a large number of their products are biased. http://www.midwestgamesupply.com/dice.htm
Quote: SanchoPanzaAny basis for that assertion? It has been posted here without contradiction that the general supplier of dice for U.S. casinos is GPI.
Your post is proof alone that Wizards is not the know-all place for real world craps. Anyone that has been to a dice factory (I have) or to the G2E (I have) knows differently. We once had the Table Games Supervisor at Sam's Town in Las Vegas tell us that they bought some of their dice from a guy that made them in his Las Vegas garage. Just a few dice factories for casinos include:
- Alibaba
- GPI
- Midwest (supplied Bellagio)
- US Playing Card Company (supplied Bellagio, Mandalay Bay, Planet Hollywood)
Quote: BohemianThese Axis Power Dice dice are made by Midwest, the same company that supplies dice for casinos all over the USA.
Quote: SanchoPanzaAny basis for that assertion?
From Midwest's website as supplied by MathExtremist:
Quote:When it comes to Casino Dice you are dealing with the industry leader. Our "Certified Perfects" have been acknowledged as the standard World-Wide for decades. We've been serving Casinos across U.S.A. and Worldwide for over 65 years.
"Certified Perfects" - The industry standard.
The only Casino Quality Dice manufactured in U.S.A.
And from Axis Power Dice owner Steve "Heavy" Haltom:
Quote:Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal.
Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
My dice are manufactured by Midwest Game Supply. They also make the dice sold by Dice Coach and Howard Rock 'n Roller. They also make dice for casinos worldwide, including just about every major casino chain in the United States.
Oops!
References for Steve "Heavy" Haltom posts made on Sept 28, 2014 and April 25, 2015:
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3275#p44369
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3809#p52222
Yup, you can take that to the bank and deposit it. Good as gold. Just tell 'em a casino big shot told me so.Quote: BohemianYour post is proof alone that Wizards is not the know-all place for real world craps. Anyone that has been to a dice factory (I have) or to the G2E (I have) knows differently. We once had the Table Games Supervisor at Sam's Town in Las Vegas tell us that they bought some of their dice from a guy that made them in his Las Vegas garage.
Which is unsupportable and undocumented and which fails in all respects to even address your claim of of worthy Axis dice are: "These Axis Power Dice dice are made by Midwest, the same company that supplies dice for casinos all over the USA."Quote: BohemianJust a few dice factories for casinos include: - Alibaba - GPI - Midwest (supplied Bellagio) - US Playing Card Company (supplied Bellagio, Mandalay Bay, Planet Hollywood).
And from Axis Power Dice owner Steve "Heavy" Haltom:
Oh yeah, advertising claims from a big-time promoter is basis to impugn the ethics and legality of wherever you are losing chips.Quote:Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal.
Prove that at least with the names of those "casinos chains."! In the meantime, you got snookered. You bought crappy unbalanced dice. Congratulations!Quote: BohemianMy dice are manufactured by Midwest Game Supply. They also make the dice sold by Dice Coach and Howard Rock 'n Roller. They also make dice for casinos worldwide, including just about every major casino chain in the United States.
Instead of selling dice or whatever, why not find a way to take advantage of bias dice? It's got to be more profitable if its as wide spread as some are claiming.Quote: BohemianYour post is proof alone that Wizards is not the know-all place for real world craps. Anyone that has been to a dice factory (I have) or to the G2E (I have) knows differently. We once had the Table Games Supervisor at Sam's Town in Las Vegas tell us that they bought some of their dice from a guy that made them in his Las Vegas garage. Just a few dice factories for casinos include:
- Alibaba
- GPI
- Midwest (supplied Bellagio)
- US Playing Card Company (supplied Bellagio, Mandalay Bay, Planet Hollywood)
From Midwest's website as supplied by MathExtremist:
And from Axis Power Dice owner Steve "Heavy" Haltom:Quote:Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal.
Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
My dice are manufactured by Midwest Game Supply. They also make the dice sold by Dice Coach and Howard Rock 'n Roller. They also make dice for casinos worldwide, including just about every major casino chain in the United States.
Oops!
References for Steve "Heavy" Haltom posts made on Sept 28, 2014 and April 25, 2015:
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3275#p44369
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3809#p52222
Let's see the results, either printed or taped.Quote: BohemianAnd yes, we have done home experiments with unbalanced dice and you can gain an advantage.
So all this palaver is just an exercise in spinning wheels. UNLESS, that is, you or we can get access to the lists of different weights and at what junctures they are to be substituted in the game.Quote: BohemianHowever, if dice can be unbalanced in 26 different weighs (pun intended), what good does it do if you do not know which dice the casino is using that shift on that particular table?
Quote: AxelWolfInstead of selling dice or whatever, why not find a way to take advantage of bias dice? It's got to be more profitable if its as wide spread as some are claiming.Quote: BohemianYour post is proof alone that Wizards is not the know-all place for real world craps. Anyone that has been to a dice factory (I have) or to the G2E (I have) knows differently. We once had the Table Games Supervisor at Sam's Town in Las Vegas tell us that they bought some of their dice from a guy that made them in his Las Vegas garage. Just a few dice factories for casinos include:
- Alibaba
- GPI
- Midwest (supplied Bellagio)
- US Playing Card Company (supplied Bellagio, Mandalay Bay, Planet Hollywood)
From Midwest's website as supplied by MathExtremist:
And from Axis Power Dice owner Steve "Heavy" Haltom:Quote:Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal.
Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
My dice are manufactured by Midwest Game Supply. They also make the dice sold by Dice Coach and Howard Rock 'n Roller. They also make dice for casinos worldwide, including just about every major casino chain in the United States.
Oops!
References for Steve "Heavy" Haltom posts made on Sept 28, 2014 and April 25, 2015:
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3275#p44369
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3809#p52222
It's not and they can't. This whole subject is riculous and these conspiracy theorists should be asked to prove their claims or go away.
ZCore13
I 100% AGREE. Or put their money where mouth is.Quote: Zcore13Quote: AxelWolfInstead of selling dice or whatever, why not find a way to take advantage of bias dice? It's got to be more profitable if its as wide spread as some are claiming.Quote: BohemianYour post is proof alone that Wizards is not the know-all place for real world craps. Anyone that has been to a dice factory (I have) or to the G2E (I have) knows differently. We once had the Table Games Supervisor at Sam's Town in Las Vegas tell us that they bought some of their dice from a guy that made them in his Las Vegas garage. Just a few dice factories for casinos include:
- Alibaba
- GPI
- Midwest (supplied Bellagio)
- US Playing Card Company (supplied Bellagio, Mandalay Bay, Planet Hollywood)
From Midwest's website as supplied by MathExtremist:
And from Axis Power Dice owner Steve "Heavy" Haltom:Quote:Axis Power Craps is proud to offer these beautiful 3/4 inch flush-spot, razor edge, high polished dice. They're made by the same U.S. company that manufactures dice for many of the casinos you play at. They are, in short, the real deal.
Created from an exclusive cellulose acetate formula developed to insure clarity, hardness and stability, these dice are milled to 1/10,000th of an inch and certified by the manufacturer to be perfectly balanced.
My dice are manufactured by Midwest Game Supply. They also make the dice sold by Dice Coach and Howard Rock 'n Roller. They also make dice for casinos worldwide, including just about every major casino chain in the United States.
Oops!
References for Steve "Heavy" Haltom posts made on Sept 28, 2014 and April 25, 2015:
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3275#p44369
http://www.axispowercraps.com/crapsforum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3809#p52222
It's not and they can't. This whole subject is riculous and these conspiracy theorists should be asked to prove their claims or go away.
ZCore13
Quote: superrickZCORE13, Now I know that you work in a casino in Arizona in Prescott,..Do they even have craps were you work or how about one of these bubble craps machines? Looking forward to your answer!
Still waiting for your answer!
Quote: superrickQuote: superrickZCORE13, Now I know that you work in a casino in Arizona in Prescott,..Do they even have craps were you work or how about one of these bubble craps machines? Looking forward to your answer!
Still waiting for your answer!
Live craps is not legal in the State. Bubble and video craps are but we removed them, so we have no craps games, nor do the other casinos in the area.
ZCore13
Quote: SanchoPanzaAll that shows is that Axis Power Dice are unbalanced and, presumably, vulnerable to advantage play. Has anyone tried to use them for his advantage, even in home experiments?
Actually, the video only shows that those particular dice are unbalanced, not all "Axis Power Dice." Certainly not all of them were tested. And how do we even know the test was a fair one? The tester is anonymous and presumably won't allow others to examine or re-test the same dice used in that experiment. How can we trust the dice weren't doctored before the video took place?
Even assuming the dice were fresh out of the packaging, it would be a mistake to presume that those particular dice would be vulnerable to advantage play if used in a casino. There's a big difference between failing a caliper test and yielding a player advantage over the useful life of the dice. Have the allegedly biased dice been tested statistically by rolling them a significant number of times? What were those results?
And how can we be sure the tested dice are the same make and model that are shipped to casinos? Many dice manufacturers use different qualities for promos and souvenirs vs. regulated casino play. It wouldn't surprise me at all if Midwest Game Supply kept an inventory of casino dice rejects for the purpose of custom promo branding. In other words, rather than throwing out a die that looks perfect but fails a balance test, keep it and sell it as a hot-stamp (at a lower price) to whomever wants to buy a set of dice. Has anyone who believes in this biased dice conspiracy bothered to ask them?
Finally, even if the dice tested in the video are the same make and model (and balance) as shipped to casinos, how can one even begin to presume that every single die sent to every single casino is biased? That's just a ridiculous leap of terrible logic. We don't even know if every die in the stick of dice in the video was unbalanced, let alone every die in the factory. One does not reach down, pluck a four-leaf clover, and properly conclude that all clovers have four leaves. Are the proponents of this biased dice conspiracy actually suggesting that because a pair of dice was found to be slightly unbalanced that every single die manufactured by Midwest Game Supply is biased? I surely hope not. That's a ridiculous conclusion.
Although it may take some time, I would recommend that some folks take some time out to learn some of the more detailed parts of how logic works. It could be useful for everyone attempting to make progress here.
I enjoyed reading some of these posts.
Quote: logic class
In this section, we study a method for determining that some
invalid arguments are indeed invalid. This method will therefore
reveal cases of invalid argument forms:
(taken from http://philebus.tamu.edu/phil240/LectureNotes/1.3.pdf)
Some of what is "basic logic" for "invalid arguments" might be helpful to some people involved in this discussion.
Using the proper terms and references to definitions of these terms may help when dispelling invalid arguments.
I am pretty certain that there are some invalid arguments in this thread. It would be entertaining for me to see some folks educate themselves about how logic works if there is truly an interest in advancing this discussion along.
Recognizing what is known as an "invalid argument" can be useful. The social consequences of being good at this may be a derivative problem (especially if you are married).
Quote: MathExtremistNonsense, there was nothing flawed about the study. It is physically impossible to have perfectly balanced dice. The model, based on a center of mass at the geometric center, is entirely reasonable.
In reality, all dice have a geometric center that is some distance d>0 from the center of mass. The value of d is a reasonable measure of balance. For example, drugstore dice are decidedly unbalanced. Do you think the results of that study would be any different if they had used drugstore dice?
Also, Midwest Game Supply advertises their dice as certified perfect to tolerances within 1/10,000 of an inch. I think they would be very interested in learning you were claiming a large number of their products are biased. http://www.midwestgamesupply.com/dice.htm
MathExtremist, now I know why so many in the real world have trouble reasoning with you. You actually believe:
1. That we can put a man on the moon and balance a car's tire everyday but not a cube of plastic.
AND
2. That a perfectly square item equates to that item being balanced, without the possibility that its weight is not equally distributed throughout the cube and no side of the cube heavier or lighter than any other side of the cube. So why do most states and countries require that both a micrometer AND a balancing caliper be used to measure dice, just not the micrometer!
Shaking my head.
Quote: Dalex64Wow, and you made that post right after Ahigh mentioned invalid arguments.
Indeed, the gibberish level of that post was off the charts. Balancing tires? Man on the moon?
Someone who believes that all dice are biased because two of them might be isn't really in a position to lecture anyone on reasoning in the "real world". But what do you expect from someone who refers to himself in the plural?
Quote: BohemianQuote: MathExtremistNonsense, there was nothing flawed about the study. It is physically impossible to have perfectly balanced dice. The model, based on a center of mass at the geometric center, is entirely reasonable.
In reality, all dice have a geometric center that is some distance d>0 from the center of mass. The value of d is a reasonable measure of balance. For example, drugstore dice are decidedly unbalanced. Do you think the results of that study would be any different if they had used drugstore dice?
Also, Midwest Game Supply advertises their dice as certified perfect to tolerances within 1/10,000 of an inch. I think they would be very interested in learning you were claiming a large number of their products are biased. http://www.midwestgamesupply.com/dice.htm
MathExtremist, now I know why so many in the real world have trouble reasoning with you. You actually believe:
...
Shaking my head.
Personal insult. 7 days (3rd offense).
Or when someone can make money exploiting biased dice, not people by selling book, classes, dice or whatever BS they are selling or agenda they have.
I'm certain this thread was started with the intentions of touting something for a profit.
Seriously? I have to say that's probably the most unfair suspension I have seen. And I disagree with most of his BS.Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: BohemianQuote: MathExtremistNonsense, there was nothing flawed about the study. It is physically impossible to have perfectly balanced dice. The model, based on a center of mass at the geometric center, is entirely reasonable.
In reality, all dice have a geometric center that is some distance d>0 from the center of mass. The value of d is a reasonable measure of balance. For example, drugstore dice are decidedly unbalanced. Do you think the results of that study would be any different if they had used drugstore dice?
Also, Midwest Game Supply advertises their dice as certified perfect to tolerances within 1/10,000 of an inch. I think they would be very interested in learning you were claiming a large number of their products are biased. http://www.midwestgamesupply.com/dice.htm
MathExtremist, now I know why so many in the real world have trouble reasoning with you. You actually believe:
...
Shaking my head.
Personal insult. 7 days (3rd offense).
Quote: AxelWolfCan someone wake me up when they find someone that can legitimately influence dice and make money doing so.
Or when someone can make money exploiting biased dice, not people by selling book, classes, dice or whatever BS they are selling or agenda they have.
I'm certain this thread was started with the intentions of touting something for a profit.
It's almost as some of these people are brainwashed. They have no actual facts, experiments, proof or documentation, but they believe it with a passion. I guess that's what makes people different. There are leaders and followers in every type of activity.
ZCore13
Quote: AxelWolfSeriously? I have to say that's probably the most unfair suspension I have seen. And I disagree with most of his BS.Quote: beachbumbabsQuote: BohemianQuote: MathExtremistNonsense, there was nothing flawed about the study. It is physically impossible to have perfectly balanced dice. The model, based on a center of mass at the geometric center, is entirely reasonable.
In reality, all dice have a geometric center that is some distance d>0 from the center of mass. The value of d is a reasonable measure of balance. For example, drugstore dice are decidedly unbalanced. Do you think the results of that study would be any different if they had used drugstore dice?
Also, Midwest Game Supply advertises their dice as certified perfect to tolerances within 1/10,000 of an inch. I think they would be very interested in learning you were claiming a large number of their products are biased. http://www.midwestgamesupply.com/dice.htm
MathExtremist, now I know why so many in the real world have trouble reasoning with you. You actually believe:
...
Shaking my head.
Personal insult. 7 days (3rd offense).
Sometimes you just have to put an end to the ridiculousness. These people are accusing businesses of purposely cheating and stealing their money with absolutely no facts or proof. They should all be sent away.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Sometimes you just have to put an end to the ridiculousness. These people are accusing businesses of purposely cheating and stealing their money with absolutely no facts or proof. They should all be sent away.
I didn't perceive a personal insult but I did perceive libel against a family company that's been doing good work in the gaming industry for decades. On the other hand, it's ultimately up to the mods how to handle disruptive influences.
I deal with disagreements about gambling for a living and part of that is refuting the credibility or methodology of the other side. It should never descend into ad hominem remarks but it's certainly fair game to expose your opponent's unreliable principles or methods. In fact, using reliable principles and methods is a requirement for a properly-admissible opinion.
"We tested two dice, therefore all dice are biased" is certainly an unreliable principle.
Quote: MathExtremistActually, the video only shows that those particular dice are unbalanced, not all "Axis Power Dice." Certainly not all of them were tested. And how do we even know the test was a fair one? The tester is anonymous and presumably won't allow others to examine or re-test the same dice used in that experiment. How can we trust the dice weren't doctored before the video took place?
Why doesn't the MathExtremist go out and buy a caliper and check out some casino dice. Then report back to what he found out! There has been a lot of guys from all over the county saying the same thing that there are a lot of dice that are now being used in the casinos that are out of balance!
Quote: AxelWolf
Personal insult. 7 days (3rd offense). Seriously? I have to say that's probably the most unfair suspension I have seen. And I disagree with most of his BS.
Now please tell us all what insult there was to MathExtremist in this thread so we don't make the same mistake. If refuting an argument is wrong then this board is going to die.
Quote: superrickWhy doesn't the MathExtremist go out and buy a caliper and check out some casino dice. Then report back to what he found out! There has been a lot of guys from all over the county saying the same thing that there are a lot of dice that are now being used in the casinos that are out of balance!
That's nice. A lot of people from all over the county also believe that red is due after a long string of black roulette numbers. Doesn't make it true.
How about you send me a caliper and the dice you want me to check and I'll run the experiments that you and Bohemian should have run. Testing two dice that aren't from a casino and concluding "a lot of dice in casinos are biased" isn't the way to do it. That reasoning is equivalent to having some terrible pizza at a casino buffet and concluding that all pizza in Italy is terrible. (It's not, by the way.)
Quote: MathExtremistThat's nice. A lot of people from all over the county also believe that red is due after a long string of black roulette numbers. Doesn't make it true.
How about you send me a caliper and the dice you want me to check and I'll run the experiments that you and Bohemian should have run. Testing two dice that aren't from a casino and concluding "a lot of dice in casinos are biased" isn't the way to do it. That reasoning is equivalent to having some terrible pizza at a casino buffet and concluding that all pizza in Italy is terrible. (It's not, by the way.)
I offered to get them casino dice direct from the source and they ignored it completely. They are not interested in proving anything. Just stringing thsee baseless accusations along
ZCore13
Those "guys" are doing nothing more than speculating. I wouldn't waste $15 on their head scratchings.Quote: superrickThere has been a lot of guys from all over the county saying the same thing that there are a lot of dice that are now being used in the casinos that are out of balance!
That is a lot more than I would have offered if I had your position. As long you're being so typically willing, could you tell us who is the manufacturer of those dice?Quote: Zcore13I offered to get them casino dice direct from the source and they ignored it completely.
