Riva
Riva
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September 30th, 2014 at 10:51:18 AM permalink
At our charity gambling fundraising events, we have large signs explaining the rules for that particular game posted conspicuously near the tables including: roulette, big wheel and BJ. Black jack also has the same rules on sheet of paper resting on each table.

However, on craps, all we have is the wager limit sign in the tub. This had lead to having constantly explain the rules to players and even some consternation on the part of a few. It has been suggested to me by some posters here that we should have the same type of signage that we have for all the other games specific to our craps rules. Thinking about it, it's probably a good idea.

Now, some may have an issue with our house rules surrounding craps. Please....They are what they are and they are not going to change. What I am looking for is the "precise word usage" for the signs so as to make the rules as clear and understandable as possible for the players. And, if there is a rule that I have missed, please suggest. Here's what I have come up with.

- Pass line, Donít Pass and Place bets pay 1:1

- No odds

- Field pays 1:1, 2 & 12 pays double

- Hardways not working on come out unless called

- Pass line bets allowed after point established

- Pass line bets cannot be taken down

- Donít pass bets not allowed after point established

- Donít pass bets can be taken down at any time

- Come bets always working

- $1 minimum on proposition bets

As always, thanks for the input.
MidwestAP
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September 30th, 2014 at 11:32:09 AM permalink
With the exception of no odds behind the pass line bets, the rest are pretty standard, why the need for a sign?

I see a need for any non-standard payouts, do you have the prop payouts printed on the felt?
Riva
Riva
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September 30th, 2014 at 11:46:53 AM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

With the exception of no odds behind the pass line bets, the rest are pretty standard, why the need for a sign?

I see a need for any non-standard payouts, do you have the prop payouts printed on the felt?



Yes. The layout was custom made and they are printed on to the felt. They are shaved, on average, about 30% from a real casino. (see pic) Example; 2 & 12 pays 20:1.

http://tinypic.com/r/2mwdno4/8
beachbumbabs
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September 30th, 2014 at 11:57:52 AM permalink
Do you have chips valued at less than $1? I didn't think you did. If not, I think the line about $1 prop bets is not necessary.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Riva
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September 30th, 2014 at 12:06:31 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Do you have chips valued at less than $1? I didn't think you did. If not, I think the line about $1 prop bets is not necessary.



No. $1 is smallest value and we allow $1 on prop bets. All other bets on table are $2 minimum. I'm thinking if we put out that we allow $1 prop bets, more will play the middle. Some of our players are so tight, they still have their first communion money. :)
FleaStiff
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September 30th, 2014 at 1:16:15 PM permalink
- Pass line, Donít Passline and all Place bets pay 1:1

- No odds bet offered.

- Field bet pays 1:1, 2 &and 12 pays double

- Hardways not working on come out unless called and dealer acknowledges

- Pass line bets allowed after point established

- Pass line bets cannot be taken down

- Donít pass bets not allowed after point established

- Donít pass bets can be taken down at any time

- Come bets always working

- $1 minimum on proposition bets ... I'd leave this even though one dollar is minimum chip available.
AZDuffman
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September 30th, 2014 at 2:25:49 PM permalink
No odds and hard ways not working is all I think you need. The sign cannot be too big or it will impact play--trust me. Might want to explain in the sign that since for charity no odds as most people will not pick up on that.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Riva
Riva
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September 30th, 2014 at 2:56:16 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

No odds and hard ways not working is all I think you need. The sign cannot be too big or it will impact play--trust me. Might want to explain in the sign that since for charity no odds as most people will not pick up on that.



I agree in part but, we have to answer these same questions a zillion times during the course of a night. Plus, my lesser angels tell me that this is a subtle way to encourage people that they can take down don't bets. Again, I said my "lesser angels! :)
AZDuffman
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September 30th, 2014 at 3:35:20 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

I agree in part but, we have to answer these same questions a zillion times during the course of a night. Plus, my lesser angels tell me that this is a subtle way to encourage people that they can take down don't bets. Again, I said my "lesser angels! :)




If they don't know the don't can come down they will not be donts in the first place. Charity players will he's to the pass. I rarely get donts.

As to answering over and over you will have to answer more and slow the game with the big sign about bets they won't make. And to answer will take longer.

Maybe encourage field bets. Don't worry about the rest.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
FleaStiff
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September 30th, 2014 at 5:28:28 PM permalink
Anyone who knows enough to make a Don't Bet knows enough to NEVER take it down.
Riva
Riva
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September 30th, 2014 at 6:44:28 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Anyone who knows enough to make a Don't Bet knows enough to NEVER take it down.



Not necessarily so. "Pass" and "Don't Pass" is an arbitrary/impulse wager for some. After a few rolls and, if one gets the "jitters" and, given the option to take down one's bet, whether a smart move or not, many take the "safe route", specifically: they take down the bets. (sorry..run-on sentence) . :)
darthvader
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October 1st, 2014 at 6:24:10 AM permalink
Quote: Riva


Place bets pay 1:1



Sucker born every minute.
7-out, line away, pay the don't. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEcwAWi6dk
beachbumbabs
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October 1st, 2014 at 10:58:20 AM permalink
Quote: darthvader

Sucker born every minute.



It's a charity fundraiser, not a casino. Seems more fun and less painful than just writing a check, at least to me. If you lose, you get a tax donation. If you win, you get money. Either way, you get a night out, socializing, playing games. Why is this so tough to take? (Not sarcastic or rhetorical; I really don't get why there's such a backlash on what Riva's doing, using games to raise money.)
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
MidwestAP
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October 1st, 2014 at 12:26:57 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

It's a charity fundraiser, not a casino. Seems more fun and less painful than just writing a check, at least to me. If you lose, you get a tax donation. If you win, you get money. Either way, you get a night out, socializing, playing games. Why is this so tough to take? (Not sarcastic or rhetorical; I really don't get why there's such a backlash on what Riva's doing, using games to raise money.)



A little of topic, but are losses at a charity gaming event fully tax deductible? My understanding is that if goods or services are provided as part of the contribution (gambling loss), only the value of the contribution (gambling loss) above the fair market value of the goods or services provided is tax deductible. I'm presuming the charity offering a casino night constitutes a service, so how does one value that service?
Riva
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October 1st, 2014 at 1:31:52 PM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

A little of topic, but are losses at a charity gaming event fully tax deductible? My understanding is that if goods or services are provided as part of the contribution (gambling loss), only the value of the contribution (gambling loss) above the fair market value of the goods or services provided is tax deductible. I'm presuming the charity offering a casino night constitutes a service, so how does one value that service?



To clarify..we do not offer prizes in exchange for gaming wins. We offer real money just like a casino. So, if a person lost (real) money, I supposed they could use that as a deduction.
wudged
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October 1st, 2014 at 1:44:40 PM permalink
Quote: Riva

To clarify..we do not offer prizes in exchange for gaming wins. We offer real money just like a casino. So, if a person lost (real) money, I supposed they could use that as a deduction.



I think his point was that players are exchanging money (loss) for entertainment, and they should only be able to deduct losses that exceed the value of that entertainment. I'll go ahead and enter your counter-argument that all the dealers are volunteers so there really is no value. I don't think I agree with that, but I don't know exactly how to value the entertainment. Expected loss maybe?
MidwestAP
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October 1st, 2014 at 2:02:24 PM permalink
Quote: wudged

I think his point was that players are exchanging money (loss) for entertainment, and they should only be able to deduct losses that exceed the value of that entertainment. I'll go ahead and enter your counter-argument that all the dealers are volunteers so there really is no value. I don't think I agree with that, but I don't know exactly how to value the entertainment. Expected loss maybe?



Yes, that was my point. For instance, a contribution in exchange for a performance where the proceeds go to a charity isn't tax deductible except for any amount you contribute that exceeds the fair market value of the performance.

So, is the actual entertainment value of a charitable casino night a service? And if so, what is the fair market value so one can calculate the deductible amount of any losses?
LoquaciousMoFW
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October 1st, 2014 at 2:21:11 PM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

Yes, that was my point. For instance, a contribution in exchange for a performance where the proceeds go to a charity isn't tax deductible except for any amount you contribute that exceeds the fair market value of the performance.

So, is the actual entertainment value of a charitable casino night a service? And if so, what is the fair market value so one can calculate the deductible amount of any losses?

No need to determine entertainment value. From IRS publication 526:
Quote:

If you receive or expect to receive a financial or economic benefit as a result of making a contribution to a qualified organization, you cannot deduct the part of the contribution that represents the value of the benefit you receive. See Contributions From Which You Benefit under Contributions You Can Deduct, earlier. These contributions include the following[:]
Costs of raffles, bingo, lottery, etc. You cannot deduct as a charitable contribution amounts you pay to buy raffle or lottery tickets or to play bingo or other games of chance. For information on how to report gambling winnings and losses, see Deductions Not Subject to the 2% Limit in Publication 529.

MidwestAP
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October 1st, 2014 at 2:26:35 PM permalink
Quote: LoquaciousMoFW

No need to determine entertainment value. From IRS publication 526:

Quote:

If you receive or expect to receive a financial or economic benefit as a result of making a contribution to a qualified organization, you cannot deduct the part of the contribution that represents the value of the benefit you receive. See Contributions From Which You Benefit under Contributions You Can Deduct, earlier. These contributions include the following[:]
Costs of raffles, bingo, lottery, etc. You cannot deduct as a charitable contribution amounts you pay to buy raffle or lottery tickets or to play bingo or other games of chance. For information on how to report gambling winnings and losses, see Deductions Not Subject to the 2% Limit in Publication 529.



Perfect, thanks for clearing that up.
FleaStiff
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October 1st, 2014 at 3:23:23 PM permalink
Quote: MidwestAP

A little of topic, but are losses at a charity gaming event fully tax deductible? My understanding is that if goods or services are provided as part of the contribution (gambling loss), only the value of the contribution (gambling loss) above the fair market value of the goods or services provided is tax deductible. I'm presuming the charity offering a casino night constitutes a service, so how does one value that service?



This means that if a donor provides a ton of cheese and his services as a slicer he can't then launder five thousand dollars and take that five grand as a deductable loss to the charitable game.
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