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Beethoven9th
Beethoven9th
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January 17th, 2014 at 2:09:32 PM permalink
I don't make very many lays bets, but I noticed that Station Casinos allows players who lay the 4 or 10 to pay vig on the win. I also noticed that dealers subtract only $2.00 when a $100 lay bet wins (which, of course, is 4% commission). With 5% commission, the HE is 2.44% when paid up front on the 4/10. On the win, 1.67%

Obviously, 4% is beneficial for the player, but my question is: How much exactly does it lower the House Edge?
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AxiomOfChoice
AxiomOfChoice
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January 17th, 2014 at 2:27:07 PM permalink
Quote: Beethoven9th

I don't make very many lays bets, but I noticed that Station Casinos allows players who lay the 4 or 10 to pay vig on the win. I also noticed that dealers subtract only $2.00 when a $100 lay bet wins (which, of course, is 4% commission). With 5% commission, the HE is 2.44% when paid up front on the 4/10. On the win, 1.67%

Obviously, 4% is beneficial for the player, but my question is: How much exactly does it lower the House Edge?



This is standard, I think. It's how it works at MGM grand, for sure, betting no 4 or no 10.

Paying 4% commission instead of 5% commission lowers the house edge by 20% (4/5). You win 2/3 of the time (and when you win, you win 50% of the bet) so it is the same edge as on buying the 4 or 10 -- 1.333...% for 4% commission and 1.666...% for 5% commission.
wudged
wudged
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January 17th, 2014 at 4:00:18 PM permalink
Sometimes you can get them to stretch the vig even further - for example lay the 4/10 for $70 and still only pay $1 on the win.
WABJ11
WABJ11
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January 24th, 2022 at 2:48:58 AM permalink
Sorry Iím late, I am a donít player and came across this post after googling no vig upfront and lay bets.

Park MGM changed their rules today on craps where you donít pay any vig upfront on the Lay bets. I was curious about this 4% youíve been talking about. I have played at Red Rock for almost four years, and never seen 4% and you ALWAYS have to pay the 5% vig up front on the Lay bet. What station casino was charging only 4%?
DeMango
DeMango
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WABJ11
January 24th, 2022 at 3:42:42 AM permalink
Congrats on digging up 8 year old thread!!!
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AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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January 24th, 2022 at 4:56:36 AM permalink
Quote: WABJ11

Sorry Iím late, I am a donít player and came across this post after googling no vig upfront and lay bets.

Park MGM changed their rules today on craps where you donít pay any vig upfront on the Lay bets. I was curious about this 4% youíve been talking about. I have played at Red Rock for almost four years, and never seen 4% and you ALWAYS have to pay the 5% vig up front on the Lay bet. What station casino was charging only 4%?
link to original post



I typically lay the last number for the All, Tall, Small bets as a hedge.

4, 10 $50 lay, $1 vig
5, 9 $60 lay, $2 vig
6,8 $60 lay, $2 vig

I do these at Red Rock and Suncoast. The vig is paid when the bet is made.

$2 on a $60 bet is 3%, isnt it?
ChumpChange
ChumpChange
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AlanMendelson
January 24th, 2022 at 5:03:39 AM permalink
On the 5,9 a $60 lay bet pays $40, so the $2 vig is on the $40, or 5%.
WABJ11
WABJ11
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January 24th, 2022 at 6:15:33 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson



I typically lay the last number for the All, Tall, Small bets as a hedge.

4, 10 $50 lay, $1 vig
5, 9 $60 lay, $2 vig
6,8 $60 lay, $2 vig

I do these at Red Rock and Suncoast. The vig is paid when the bet is made.

$2 on a $60 bet is 3%, isnt it?
link to original post



No this is incorrect. Youíre not charged vig on the amount you wager, youíre charged vig on the WIN of the bet. So $50 4,10 Lay would win $25 and 5% is $1.25. They round down to $1. 5,9 $50 Lay would win $40, and 5% is $2.

So itís a misunderstanding on your part.

In any event Iím more curious to know more about when casinos donít charge you vig up front and only charge you on a win.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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January 24th, 2022 at 8:40:02 AM permalink
Quote: WABJ11

Quote: AlanMendelson



I typically lay the last number for the All, Tall, Small bets as a hedge.

4, 10 $50 lay, $1 vig
5, 9 $60 lay, $2 vig
6,8 $60 lay, $2 vig

I do these at Red Rock and Suncoast. The vig is paid when the bet is made.

$2 on a $60 bet is 3%, isnt it?
link to original post



No this is incorrect. Youíre not charged vig on the amount you wager, youíre charged vig on the WIN of the bet. So $50 4,10 Lay would win $25 and 5% is $1.25. They round down to $1. 5,9 $50 Lay would win $40, and 5% is $2.

So itís a misunderstanding on your part.

In any event Iím more curious to know more about when casinos donít charge you vig up front and only charge you on a win.
link to original post



Thanks for correcting me on the vig on lay bets.

Most casinos have dropped the vig when you buy the 4 and 10 and charge the vig only when the bet wins. I dont think I've paid a vig on the 4,10 when placing those bets in 20 years.

Caesars in the old days charged the vig when buying the 4,10 but that was the old days. You've paid it on the win for the past 20 years or so.
pwcrabb
pwcrabb
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January 24th, 2022 at 9:51:42 AM permalink
For Buy bets, 5% Vig is charged on the amount at risk. For Lay Bets, 5% Vig is charged on the amount that could be won.

For both bets, the Vig is often rounded down for convenience or courtesy. For one Quarter, Vig is $1. For two Quarters, Vig is $2. Larger bet amounts will be evaluated using the 5% rule.

Most USA casinos now collect Vig after the win for Buy bets and upon placement for Lay Bets.

Competitive rivalries may induce some casinos to begin postponing the Vig on Lay Bets as well. This Forum would be a good place for sharing such good news.
"I suppose I was mad. Every great genius is mad upon the subject in which he is greatest. The unsuccessful madman is disgraced and called a lunatic." Fitz-James O'Brien, The Diamond Lens (1858)

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