Why hasn't there been a follow-up to the Dice Challenge of 2004?
The challenge was that Wong and a fellow dice controller had to roll 79 sevens or less over 500 rolls in actual casinos.
I found it interesting that Frank Scoblete declined to participate in the challenge even though he claims a 1:10.3 ratio in his Golden Touch Craps DVD.
The result of the challenge: 74 sevens for an SRR of 1:6.8.
Wong and his partner won $15,350 from several people, including our own Wizard.
I've always wondered why there hasn't been a second challenge with 10,000 rolls to conclusively prove or debunk dice control.
Dice control schools would no doubt make a killing with an influx of new students if their instructors were able to get an SRR of 1:7 or better over 10,000 rolls. They could also charge more than their current fee of $1500 per training session.
Thats sounds good in theory, and everybody likes to have fun.
BUt you need to understand something, there are a number of casino's around the country
that a DI can no longer play at. So the last thing you need is some great big event
which adds to the casino's idea that dice control is dangerous for them.
Most of us know that 90% or even more of the people that want to be a dice controller
will never be good enough to do it, but that does not matter, what matters is what
the casino's think.
If you love craps why in the world would you do anything that makes casino's
allow fewer of us to play????
gman
So when are you and Ahigh going to meet up in Vegas???
I am going to be there one evening and one day, looking forwards to some
fun games.
If the kid is around i will be easy to find downtown, but being just a grandpa i sure hate
to take up to much of his time. I have heard so many of the great dice throwers of all time
are seeking an audience with him, i hate to cut in front of the line.
Dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterwell funny you would ask that,
I am going to be there one evening and one day, and i have a couple of folks i like that
i want to play with.
If the kid is around i will be easy to find downtown, but being just a grandpa i sure hate
to take up to much of his time. I have heard so many of the great dice throwers of all time
are seeking an audience with him, i hate to cut in front of the line.
Dicesetter
What day are you going to be there?? I just may have to show up to see you play with the king of craps. lol
its time to allow him to run his own show with no other opinions.
Dicesetter
a 1 in 6.8 sevens to rolls ratio or higher overQuote: drjohnnyI found it interesting that Frank Scoblete declined to participate in the challenge even though he claims a 1:10.3 ratio in his Golden Touch Craps DVD.
The result of the challenge: 74 sevens for an SRR of 1:6.8.
10k rolls is just an easy 1 in 22,489,129.4 shot
with fair dice and true casino conditions.
The folks you named (hahaha) know they can never do that in a casino.
So they test and report home tosses. Hey, it makes them look and feel better. Go for it.
500 rolls is enough proof for them.
0.1441146
or 1 in 6.9 shooters ON AVERAGE, random shooters without trying do just that.
I even did that for 5 straight months at an actual casino in Reno (Cal Neva) in 1999.
But you still gots to bet your advantage or you will have a difficult time winning
against the house edges in Craps after say 500 bets resolved
no matter how great a DI you ares
Fact is all craps players play scared... of losing
That does not make anyone a loser, just takes some fun away from playing the game.
Quote: TheWolf713Do You want to see some skill.. Try a 1:4 sevens ratio... Shooting from the don't... Now that's AP play
I was able to achieve a ratio comparable to that for 3 straight sessions while playing the don't with 10x odds.
Unfortunately, I lost all of my dice control skills during my last casino session and I ended up busting out after I hit 4-5 points in a row! LOL
Quote: drjohnnyI was able to achieve a ratio comparable to that for 3 straight sessions while playing the don't with 10x odds.
Unfortunately, I lost all of my dice control skills during my last casino session and I ended up busting out after I hit 4-5 points in a row! LOL
Don't you just hate when that happens!!! Lol..
Quote: dicesitterI have heard so many of the great dice throwers of all time
are seeking an audience with him, i hate to cut in front of the line.
Don't worry about that.
All the DI's will be festooned with masks, so your anonymity will be assured.
Quote: DeMangoIf you bust out making 5 points you are clueless on money management.
I tend to go on tilt after 2 hours of nonstop gambling.
Hopefully I can avoid this problem in future casino sessions.
Quote: DeMangoIf you bust out making 5 points you are clueless on money management.
He was playing the Don't.
Quote:
drjohnny
I found it interesting that Frank Scoblete declined to participate in the challenge even though he claims a 1:10.3 ratio in his Golden Touch Craps DVD.
What is so interesting about that, if he failed, what would happen to his little craps school and book empire that he built selling,.. becoming a so-called DI! There would be no more fantasy-land for Scoblete followers to live in! You would have no more great fiction writer on the came of craps, trying to control their followers with words of wisdom! Then you wouldn't have the great fiction writer that preaches that if you don't do as he say you will live in the “Craps Purgatory!”
http://www.dicesetter.com/mp/dmad10crapshell.htm
Quote:
You'll notice that I didn't number these items. I definitely don't want someone saying "Hey Mad Professor, I just broke Commandment #5, how many prayers should I say as penance?" As a friend once told me "…some people make the same kind of critical mistakes over and over and over again, and no amount of novenas will help them."
Most players are in a kind of Craps Purgatory. They aren't bad enough to be cast into the eternal damnation of Craps Hell, but they are still seeking the righteous path to get to the pearly gates of Craps Heaven.
Good Luck & Good Skill at the Tables…and in Life.
By: The Mad Professor
drjohnny Nobody in their right mind is going to shoot for 10,000 of the dice to prove anything about dice controll, would you stand there shooting for 10,000 rolls of the dice?
Quote:
drjohnny
Dice control schools would no doubt make a killing with an influx of new students if their instructors were able to get an SRR of 1:7 or better over 10,000 rolls. They could also charge more than their current fee of $1500 per training session.
What evereybody call an SRR is nothing but BS, they needed a way of selling what they were teaching, so one of them came up with an SRR to measure how good of a shooter they thought they were.
Notice that I said they thought they were. Craps is not like making a putt on that perfect green back home. Every time you make a shot on a casino craps table there is something different, that just happened on that table,.. if there are any other players on the table.
If you start out playing on an empty table, it doesn't stay that way for very long, I like to joke with the dealers that know me, that I have a three second window of opportunity of shooting with nobody on the table and that they should be paying me to get their craps came started!
If you think you are a so-called DI and you recorded 10,000 rolls at home you will have the shock of your life, when you hit a real casino table and nothing you do is the same as your practice rig at home!
Quote:
dicesitter
BUt you need to understand something, there are a number of casino's around the country
that a DI can no longer play at. So the last thing you need is some great big event
which adds to the casino's idea that dice control is dangerous for them.
Just as dicesitter said why would any DI try to prove that there are real DI's out there that can win when they are playing craps, now get this, not with their great shooting skills but with smart betting.
All these fiction writers have managed to do was create a state fear in the casino industry, the clowns that run some of these craps pits actually have read all this great fiction and they took it to heart, they came up with what they thought was counter measures. So now everybody that sets the dice now gets heat,.. if they are just getting lucky and are on a good roll!
There have been a few casino here in Vegas that have finally realized that one of those counter measures, the bouncy table was costing them money. Casinos make money on the rolls per hour, if you have your boxman chasing the dice on just about every roll, because they went off the table,.. its costing the casinos money, way more then a lucky roll every once in a while. Casinos should have way more to fear from the so-called random rollers then the so-called DI's, if only for the fact that they out numbers the so-called DI's tens of thousands to one!
Again look at any slow-motion video of the dice hitting the table and you can see that they are bouncing all over the place, they do not stay on axis like this craps schools have be selling the public!
Quote:
In fact, in February, 2009, Wong stated in a post on the bj21.com craps page, in referring to the results of slow-motion video studies of skillful throws, "The truth is, there is much bouncing around, even in dice tosses that look great at real-time speed. Watching slow-motion video of dice tosses can be discouraging, and can be harmful to sales of dice books and to sales of dice-tossing instruction." No one viewing such videos would ever disagree with that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l1LcMJTWco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2FYrndlrpc&feature=c4-overview&list=UUul8VKpXtD8pFz2KOGiozcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me5vgKkFUXA
The Myths & Truths of Rhythm Rolling? (Excerpt from WGPC08)
From: Casinoguys | Oct 10, 2008
Any real DI that would try to prove they can beat any challenge would be sticking a knife in their own back,.. if they did prove it and would do nothing but damage to the rest of the craps playing world! A real DI wouldn't be playing craps for the fun of it, and they wouldn't be looking at the craps game as a form of entrainment, like so many craps players do, ask any one of the out-of-town craps players at a craps table how much money they brought with them to Vegas and they will say they brought X amount of money to lose!
Just about anybody that took one of these classes that they sell, never practices at all, they only do it when they are on one of there three times a year trips to places like Vegas, the rest of the time their practice rig, that they were sold at the school, sits in a closet gathering dust!
...
Quote: Beethoven9thHe was playing the Don't.
No feces, Sherlock, as per post 13.
Quote: DeMangoNo feces, Sherlock, as per post 13.
Then I don't see the reason for Post #15. The guy was just unlucky, and it had nothing to do with money management (unless you're saying that he should have taken his money and left the table). It's no different from someone playing the Pass Line and going bust after a string of unlucky PSO's.
Quote: DeMangoAre you SONOFBOB?
My eyes tried and tried to make this be SONOFAB. I think yours is better:-)
Quote: superrickNobody in their right mind is going to shoot for 10,000 of the dice to prove anything about dice controll, would you stand there shooting for 10,000 rolls of the dice?
are you kidding? If I thought I could control them profitably, OF COURSE I would. It doesn't have to be one session or one day or one week..just 10,000 witnessed public rolls.
Quote: DeMangoAre you SONOFBOB? Can't admit being wrong? We are talking, walking up to a table with 5 bets, being bad. Not walking up to a table broke. And yes he agreed to that.
Looks like you need to read the OP's posts. This is what he said:
Quote: drjohnnyUnfortunately, I lost all of my dice control skills during my last casino session and I ended up busting out after I hit 4-5 points in a row! LOL
Quote: drjohnnyI tend to go on tilt after 2 hours of nonstop gambling.
Hopefully I can avoid this problem in future casino sessions.
Hate to burst your bubble, but he never said that he agreed with you. He also never said that he walked up to the table with 5, and only 5, bets.
You've been wrong about everything concerning the OP so far, so let's keep up the streak!
Quote: Beethoven9thHate to burst your bubble, but he never said that he agreed with you. He also never said that he walked up to the table with 5, and only 5, bets.
You've been wrong about everything concerning the OP so far, so let's keep up the streak!
That's right sonabob, he lost 5 bets and walked broke. Admitted he went on tilt. That's poor money management. No more no less. You really miss Ahigh don't you? You've been wrong about everything concerning me so far, so let's keep up the streak!
I'm gonna let you have the last incorrect word, fire away!
Nice backtrack. In your previous message, you claimed that the OP walked up to the table with only 5 bets. I guess this is your way of admitting you were wrong? Whatever the case, I'll take it. ;)Quote: DeMangoThat's right sonabob, he lost 5 bets and walked broke. Admitted he went on tilt. That's poor money management. No more no less.
And yes, the OP said that he went on tilt, but you seem to think (for some strange reason) that going on tilt is always a result of poor money management. Hate to burst your bubble on that one too, friend. ;)
BTW, where did the OP agree with you on anything? In your own mind?
Who needs him when we have you to entertain us? :)Quote: DeMangoYou really miss Ahigh don't you?
Quote: drjohnny
I've always wondered why there hasn't been a second challenge with 10,000 rolls to conclusively prove or debunk dice control.
Dice control schools would no doubt make a killing with an influx of new students if their instructors were able to get an SRR of 1:7 or better over 10,000 rolls. They could also charge more than their current fee of $1500 per training session.
There are several reasons why a further challenge hasn't taken place. First, the logistics of such things aren't easy to organize. Monitoring trials under actual casino conditions is problematic for several reasons.
There is the question of what this would actually prove and what the point is: we have already two challenges which show some evidence of dice control. Yes, more data would add clarity, but there's a substantial hardcore of math nerds who will just never accept it however much proof is offered, and people running seminars are very unlikely to stop selling them because of some challenge would could easily be written off as taking place under poor conditions or whatever.
This would, in any case, only prove a shooter or a couple of shooters can or can't do it. If you have to be the Tiger Woods of craps to pull it off it's useless to most people. The fact that one or a couple of guys can't do it doesn't mean others can't, maybe using different styles.
For these reasons any challenge would just end up polarizing opinion as previous challenges did. There's still a substantial number of people who don't believe card counting works.
So, no, I find it strange.
What clarity do you want to prove??? do you want some one that has worked on his or her throw for many years
and hundreds of hours of practice to take a video up to the pit boss and say i am a DI and here is
proof that it works and i now have an advantage over your table.,....
Is it ok that i play here????
In the world of craps you dont have to prove anythng to anyone except yourself, its your
money on the pass line.
dicesetter
Quote: dicesitterGBV
What clarity do you want to prove??? do you want some one that has worked on his or her throw for many years
and hundreds of hours of practice to take a video up to the pit boss and say i am a DI and here is
proof that it works and i now have an advantage over your table.,....
Is it ok that i play here????
In the world of craps you dont have to prove anythng to anyone except yourself, its your
money on the pass line.
dicesetter
I'm not completely unsympathetic to your point of view, but at the end of the day people who are selling a skill
need to demonstrate it under controlled conditions in order that others can determine whether it works.
If you wish to use your skill privately, fine, do it, make money with it. But, you can't expect other people to
hand over cash for a skill that no one can be certain is valid. They are right to be sceptical in the absence of proof.
Quote: odiousgambitSince various people are willing to make big wagers, seems to me that the winners would be eager to bet again. Surely some of these people really believe they can roll less 7s than a random roller.
So, no, I find it strange.
So they are willing to take big wagers. If you can take money off casinos, why do you need to take money off other gamblers?
But lo and behold, they claim it is essentially impossible to prove, one way or the other.
"Just trust me, I am the Golden Child" they claim.
Uh ... no, thanks.
Quote:
odiousgambit
Since various people are willing to make big wagers, seems to me that the winners would be eager to bet again. Surely some of these people really believe they can roll less 7s than a random roller.
So, no, I find it strange.
What you are looking for, are you like any other looky loo that stops by the craps tables for cheap entertainment, they don't spend a penny in the casinos other then eating a cheap meal. I see them everyday standing at the table end of a craps table sticking their hands into the tub showing whoever they have with them all they know about craps, when they don't know a thing! If they did they wouldn't be sticking their damn hands into the tub, when the shooter has the dice! Do you even play craps?
Quote:
dicesetter
What clarity do you want to prove??? do you want some one that has worked on his or her throw for many years
and hundreds of hours of practice to take a video up to the pit boss and say i am a DI and here is
proof that it works and i now have an advantage over your table.,....
Is it ok that i play here????
I concur with dicesetter on this, why would any DI in there right mind want to prove that there are DI's?
Real DI's are not your fiction writers that have everybody believing that they take hundreds of thousands of dollars a year off the tables, We don't write that we have an SRR of 28 like the great fiction writer “The Madprofessor”, we don't have back to back to back super hands like he claims to have like this great one that is in his book, Hands: 18
Rolls: 8, 12, 10, 4, 27, 18, 41, 21, 9, 30, 40, 39, 6, 5, 32, 45, 32, 17!! by the way in case you have his book and you missed that great piece of fiction it's on page 255
Now I'm sure if you have the time and want to read some great fiction you could probability find the same line at: http://www.dicesetter.com/mp/MP_toc.htm
The guy has got to be the greatest fiction writer on the game of craps, the only problem is do you really want to read fiction about a game that your going to lose money at if you take his advice!
The guys that are real DI's spend way to much time practicing what they do, and they don't want anybody to know who they are, in real life. They damn sure aren't selling any books that are nothing but fiction. There aren't that many real DI's, there damn sure is a lot of so-called DI's that never practice unless they are making one of their three times a year trips to places like Las Vegas. Then the casinos have a goldmine, when these guys walk into a casino. They play craps for hours everyday that they are there and if they do win they give it all back anyway!
Quote:
GBV
I'm not completely unsympathetic to your point of view, but at the end of the day people who are selling a skill
need to demonstrate it under controlled conditions in order that others can determine whether it works.
If you wish to use your skill privately, fine, do it, make money with it. But, you can't expect other people to
hand over cash for a skill they can't use. They are right to be sceptical in the absence of proof.
Well if this is the way you feel about it go to whoever is trying to sell you anything and ask them to show you what they do, but don't ask every real DI out there to prove anything, they don't owe you anything, and they aren't trying to sell you anything!
The stupid casinos managers that believe all the fiction out there are their own worst enemies, because of all the stupid things they do to counter what fiction is written. Casinos make their money from rolls per hour, not chasing the dice all over the casino when they fly off they tables! All dice are random even “Stanford Wong” said that after watching a slow-motion video after his book came out, before that he believed like everybody else that there was something to dice control, but not any more!
...
The people that teach these classes dont tie people up, they call and register for the
class on their own. To give the class they have to rent the space, they have to feed
the students, they have to prepare the materials, in the case of craps they have to move
the tables.
And above all if they have any instructors, they need to have a throw that is worth teaching.
When you consider all of this it is reasonable that they change for this... period. if there were
no students, then there would be no class.
In the case of GTC, they dont promise you will win, they promise if you learn and practice
you will be able to develope a toss that may give you a small advantage.
There is nothing dishonest in that.
NO one has made you take a class or buy a book, so forget about it, it does not affect you.
Dicesetter
Quote: WizardI'm open to organizing another challenge. To just float any idea, how about a repeat of the Wong challenge? Any takers? I think the challenger should put up at least $2,000 as a show of confidence. I'll take the other side.
If the "dice controller" claims he can get an SRR of 1:7 or better over 5,000 rolls in the casino, I'll bet $5,000 against him.
If he's willing to do 10,000 rolls, I'll increase my bet to $10,000.
Quote: drjohnnyIf the "dice controller" claims he can get an SRR of 1:7 or better over 5,000 rolls in the casino, I'll bet $5,000 against him.
5000 rolls?? Even if you completed a roll per minute with no breaks for sleep, this would take you more than 3 days to complete. lol
Quote: Beethoven9th5000 rolls?? Even if you completed a roll per minute with no breaks for sleep, this would take you more than 3 days to complete. lol
Even if the challenge took several weeks to complete, I'm sure plenty of people on this forum would still be interested.
Giving the dice controllers plenty of rest time between each session would take fatigue out of the equation.
Quote: Beethoven9th5000 rolls?? Even if you completed a roll per minute with no breaks for sleep, this would take you more than 3 days to complete. lol
What makes you think it would need to be one session?
Quote: Beethoven9thHell, why not make it 50,000 rolls then? lol
Sure! 50,000 rolls for $50,000! Whatever it takes to get the windbags to admit that they don't actually possess these skills.
Quote: rdw4potusSure! 50,000 rolls for $50,000! Whatever it takes to get the windbags to admit that they don't actually possess these skills.
LOL!
Quote: WizardI'm open to organizing another challenge. To just float any idea, how about a repeat of the Wong challenge? Any takers? I think the challenger should put up at least $2,000 as a show of confidence. I'll take the other side.
With all of the DC/DI threads that have taken place here, no one wants to accept this challenge?!?! Where's Ahigh when we need him?
However, my opinion changed after watching a slow motion video of a controlled throw by a dice control instructor. The dice look great in the air, but then they bounce around like crazy after hitting the back wall!
Quote: Beethoven9thno one wants to accept this challenge?!?! Where's Ahigh when we need him?
He's on his site whining that he wants to take
the challenge but those wascally mods keep
banning him here.
Quote: EvenBobHe's on his site whining that he wants to take
the challenge but those wascally mods keep
banning him here.
Ah, just saw the Ahigh-ster's post about a possible wager with the Wizard. And that taunt at the end of his message is classic Ahigh...haha
