Thread Rating:

Poll

35 votes (58.33%)
25 votes (41.66%)

60 members have voted

EvenBob
EvenBob
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April 16th, 2013 at 7:57:03 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh


You have a very limited view of this game I am realizing.



No, you have an exaggerated view of what an AP
is. You seem to think a person is an AP just because
he says so. It doesn't work that way.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Jimbo
Jimbo
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April 16th, 2013 at 8:00:43 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

We're going to go in circles for 120 pages unless someone comes up with a definition for "advantage play."

If you make up your own definition, everything is advantage play.

I proposed a definition for an Advantage Player in the initial post that started this thread.

I then questioned whether that definition could/should be expanded in consideration of craps play.

I concur there needs to be an agreed-upon definition for "advantage play" because without that consensus, we will be going around in circles.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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April 16th, 2013 at 8:01:44 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

No, you have an exaggerated view of what an AP
is. You seem to think a person is an AP just because
he says so. It doesn't work that way.



You have no clue about what your'e talking about. Most people who read your posts have to click a link to read them. The reason why is because you are more than likely the most commonly blocked member of this forum with the least valuable input per post made.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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April 16th, 2013 at 8:05:01 AM permalink
Ahigh... so we are talking about the same thing:

what is your definition of "advantage play at craps"??
MrV
MrV
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April 16th, 2013 at 8:05:18 AM permalink
Quote: Ahigh

And as the shooter gets older, the advantage will disappear.

For any given theoretically advantaged shooter, there is a career lifetime for the shooter, after which retirement will be required.

But if you're shaking or nervous or just plain old and frail, you are much less likely to have a controlled shot, even if it is proven possible.



Logically, that "sort of" makes sense, until you consider the curious case of Frank Scoblete's Captain of Craps.

He was well into his dotage, with one foot in the grave, clad in Depends and with a Geritol IV drip when he uncorked his (ahem: alleged) record craps roll in AC.

So, no lesser craps luminary than Frank Scoblete says you are wrong.
"What, me worry?"
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
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April 16th, 2013 at 8:46:39 AM permalink
Currently I am over-comped in craps; even the part that turns into a cash amount [EV of coupons] exceeds my theoretical losses. After tips it doesnt look so good [g]

But I still voted 'no' because such a player can't keep going back whenever he wants to realize this advantage.

I think it is possible somebody could "don johnson" his way into advantage play in craps, but I've never heard of it. [I mean loss rebates of course]
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
Ahigh
Ahigh
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April 16th, 2013 at 9:05:13 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Ahigh... so we are talking about the same thing:

what is your definition of "advantage play at craps"??



In general, advantage play craps has always been possible. In general what the casinos aim to do is to tighten the rules of the game to close off any advantage play that cuts into the casino's revenue.

Advantage play craps includes such things as burning specific corners of the dice in order to get a non-random outcome and bet accordingly.

But in general, advantage play craps involves getting an advantage from the outcome of the dice being unevenly distributed among the 21 possible outcomes.

The part that is the most argued about is whether or not you can get that uneven distribution using a controlled shot with 100% fair dice.

There is no argument that dice can be modified to get an advantage in the game, and this is advantage play craps. It does exist, it's just that modification of the dice (by the player) is illegal if done purposefully to alter the outcome so that it is no longer 100% random.

There is more than a single method to get a player edge in the game. This also includes collusion with dealers (also illegal), tok-for-mistake in player's advantage (very common, yet also illegal if it can be proven or if you admit to doing this), late betting the don't pass line after a point is established (obviously illegal and an easy way to go to jail, yet if you act stupid enough you can get away with trying it, and many people innocently do try it without knowing the rules of the game), using free bets to overcome the negative aspect of the game (getting over-comp'd -- EG: if they comp your odds as they do in some places).

There are so many ways to advantage play the game. And in general, most known ways are dealt with, yet many instances of illegal advantage plays still go unnoticed at lower denomination bets.

IE: the easiest way to advantage play the game is to stay near the minimum bets and bet during busy times so that dealer mistakes on your lower denomination bets are more likely to go in your favor while higher denomination bets are tended to.

The dealers absolutely know about this, as does the pit boss. And my point in mentioning it isn't to encourage other people to go out and do this. I am a very honest player who does not take advantage of these mistakes, but in a place I have never been before, there is an expectation in many instances, that I am a dealer and I am willing to look the other way when a dealer makes a mistake in my favor, and they will say "thank you" when I tip them a small fraction of the value of that mistake later.

I make it clear in these instances that I don't play the game that way, but it is also clear that especially people who are recognized as dealers get the nudge-nudge wink-wink treatment as long as the bet sizes remain small.

But using the above information, and I do consider this advantage play (illegal or not, there's an advantage), it's obvious that you can AP the game.

The trick in every single instance of AP playing craps is how to get away with it in the long run. Just like blackjack. And a lot of the answer for that has more to do with having a good personality that allows the table to continue to win money, and ideally to win more money while you are there (IE: if you are a shill for the house when you're not betting, they will love you).

If instead you are there telling everybody not the bet the big 6, or to not make a pass line bet after the point is established on a 4 or a 10, the house won't really want you around (if they are the type of house that likes that extra income, and most are; especially on the strip).

There are so many nooks and crannies in this game, and almost all of them are opportunities for casinos to make more money.

But if you're not hurting the table's revenue while you're there, you can get paid just like the dealers and the boxman.

You just can't be looking out for every single player all of the time if you expect to do it in the long term.

That's my view on things anyway.

Even someone who is just really lucky and bets standard bets and wins while everyone wins is less likely to continue to have that good fortune than someone who wins money and doesn't bet the same way as everyone else on the table with every bet they win on.

IE: the advantage play craps player that has a career instead of a sprint of good income is the one that's not greedy and is close friends with the pit crews that pay him. His daily take is less than 1/10th the daily take of the table, and more likely 1/20th or even less than that. The average table makes less than $2,000 per day. So $200 income per day per table is about what you should limit yourself to if you want to continue doing it.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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April 16th, 2013 at 9:22:19 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

If you make up your own definition, everything is advantage play.

First choice: Good looker being short sticked.
Second choice: Fantastic cocktail server.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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April 16th, 2013 at 9:28:58 AM permalink
If you are a professional, it's harder because your time is worth money as well and you have to factor that in.

But for casual AP play, you're looking to overcome the house edge plus tips, and maybe transportation money if you aren't enjoying the ride to/from.
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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April 16th, 2013 at 9:38:33 AM permalink
Ahigh give me a more specific answer about what is advantage play for craps? I don't think "advantage players" at blackjack or even some video poker games can identify with what you are talking about. For blackjack and video poker, the "advantage" comes from winning, and being in a position to keep winning and to have an actual play by play advantage over the house. You wrote more of an essay than a definition of advantage play for craps.

If for example you said that as an advantage player you always have a mathematical advantage on each and every bet it would be something that the blackjack and video poker players could identify with.

I'm at a loss of words to describe what a craps advantage play would be, so I am hoping you can come up with it.

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