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Jimbo
Jimbo
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April 16th, 2013 at 1:39:55 AM permalink
Is there such a thing as an Advantage Player (AP) in craps? (And I apologize if this has been covered before.)

I suppose it may be how you define "advantage playing." So, what is your definition of an Advantage Player? And how does this relate to craps?

If the generally agreed upon definition of an Advantage Player is "one who has a mathematical advantage over the casino game, using skill and knowledge in a legal way" then it is reasonable that there is no such thing as an Advantage Player in craps.

For those proponents of precision shooting, they will likely maintain the only way to gain a mathematical advantage in craps is with the use of their shooting method to achieve dice control or dice influence. This thread is NOT intended to be a debate on whether you agree or not agree with dice control.

If the definition is expanded to include "a disciplined player who only plays in such a way to keep the house edge to a minimum" then certainly even non-believers and non-followers of dice control may be defined as an Advantage Player--depending on how they play the game.

I've not been on other sites that are specifically for APs and there may be lack of agreement as to exactly what defines an "Advantage Player" and whether the game of craps is included in their discussion of advantage playing.

I think it is universally held that APs exist in the following casino games:
1. Blackjack
2. Video Poker
3. In rare instances, progressive slot machines where a large jackpot may offer a positive return
4. Bonus hunting situations (e.g. in online games)
5. Unique situations when casinos may offer a special promotion that presents an advantage situation

Additionally, the following should be included, though they are not situations directly against the casino:
6. Poker
7. Arbitrage sports betting

So what is the view of this Forum about advantage playing and craps?
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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April 16th, 2013 at 2:57:11 AM permalink
Advantage Play requires that you find a game in the casino where you have a positive return. Craps by definition is a negative return game. Even with comps, free play, free rooms it is unlikely you can make up the defined edge that the casino has. And this is because casinos do not offer comps in excess of their "edge."

This doesn't mean you can't get lucky. This doesn't mean you can't beat the game and win. It just means you can't put craps in the category of games where you can be an "advatanged player." You can be a good player, but you cannot expect to win.
tupp
tupp
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April 16th, 2013 at 3:17:30 AM permalink
Quote: AlanMendelson

Craps by definition is a negative return game.


This definition does not take into account the possibility of dice influencing.

No matter how strongly someone insists that dice influencing is impossible, no one has proof that it is impossible.


Quote: AlanMendelson

Even with comps, free play, free rooms it is unlikely you can make up the defined edge that the casino has. And this is because casinos do not offer comps in excess of their "edge."


This is a joke, right?

@Jimbo
Your poll should include another choice: "Advantage play in craps might be possible."
AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
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April 16th, 2013 at 3:57:12 AM permalink
Without starting another discussion about DI which would violate the Wizard's rules, let's discuss and define by what is an "advantaged play."

Every thing I have ever read about "advantage play" involves a game with a POSITIVE expectation. There is no POSITIVE expectation at craps, and that's why craps would not be eligible for "advantage play."

Now, if you want to include "lightning strikes" then why not include 8/5 Bonus Poker, or Roulette, or other "negative expectation games"?
Perhaps you also believe in Rob Singer's special plays at video poker? You might as well.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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April 16th, 2013 at 4:57:13 AM permalink
Quote: tupp

No matter how strongly someone insists that dice influencing is impossible, no one has proof that it is impossible.

Those 50,000 or so rooms up and down the Strip make clear the effects of house edge. Craps has surely contributed a couple of thousand to that sum.
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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April 16th, 2013 at 5:15:21 AM permalink
Quote: Jimbo

So what is the view of this Forum about advantage playing and craps?

The same as the view of the general public and the view of zillions of experienced Box Men and Dice Dealers nationwide: there may be some famous players but there are no long-term profitable players. Fame and notoriety can be based on language, dress, demeanor, styles of play etc. but no one has a lasting reputation based on money won.

So absent the woman in Vegas who routinely tossed the dice under an upraised and panty-less leg or absent the gentleman who played at Binions each morning in diplotmatically-correct formal dress you may have less colorful and less interesting players but you still don't have anyone who walks away from the table rich each and every year, year after year. Does not happen now, did not happen earlier, will not happen later.

Of course we all note the one exception that is forever with us: Hollywood, California. So be prepared for ultimate winners in The Montecito Casino. They will always appear from time to time and as with all imaginary characters disappear from scripts too.

The other island of reality-disconnect is Seminar City. Where ever you find someone hawking seminars about gambling, you will find photographs of secret oxygen tanks, dice-influencing millionaires entering a Rolls Royce and naked cocktail waitresses chained to beds and begging for sex. Just pay your seminar fee and you too can feel the oxygen and meet the sex-crazed naked women.
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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April 16th, 2013 at 5:45:27 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
treetopbuddy
treetopbuddy
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April 16th, 2013 at 6:03:12 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff



The other island of reality-disconnect is Seminar City. Where ever you find someone hawking seminars about gambling, you will find photographs of secret oxygen tanks, dice-influencing millionaires entering a Rolls Royce and naked cocktail waitresses chained to beds and begging for sex. Just pay your seminar fee and you too can feel the oxygen and meet the sex-crazed naked women.



"Sex-crazed naked women" No wonder the waiting lists for the seminars is typically two or more years.
Each day is better than the next
Jimbo
Jimbo
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April 16th, 2013 at 6:37:15 AM permalink
Thanks for your separate responses to my original post, Ibeatyouraces.

In full disclosure, I agree that it is an oxymoron to try to apply the generally accepted definition of Advantage Player to craps play, since there is no way to achieve an overall mathematical edge in the game of craps.

The reason for my original post and question is because last weekend a tables game supervisor described me as an Advantage Player as the result of my own craps play--since I am personally up. I told him there was no such thing in craps.

I am also described as a very disciplined player, but that is not the same thing.

I was interested in the view of other people on this Forum about this question--due to my discussion last weekend with the games supervisor. Based on some of the posts, I thought that maybe there was a difference of opinion as to what a true AP is. For example, it is appropriate to include the comps in the calculations or is it more accurate to not include comps?

I do not believe that there is any truth to dice control or dice influence provided the dice are thrown legally with both dice bouncing off the backboard--and I can post my reasons in the appropriate thread so as to avoid going off on a tangent here. [I was initially intrigued when Stanford Wong first came out in support, but after a considerable examination, I reject the notion.] So to me, it is not possible to achieve Advantage Player "status" with the use of precision shooting.

Nor do I believe in "systems." One of the reasons that I am here on this Forum is that the comments of the Wizard on his Wizard of Odds site include many of the same things that I have said for years.
Ahigh
Ahigh
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April 16th, 2013 at 6:45:24 AM permalink
The forum doesn't have a view. The forum is made up of many members.

Some members say things that aren't true, and some members do work to determine what the truth is.

Those who do the least work to determine the truth are the most certain of their beliefs relating to the subject you have brought up.

If you want to know the truth, help with the work.

If you were just curious and are wanting a conclusion, don't expect an answer. Expect to get a lie.

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