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AlanMendelson
AlanMendelson
Joined: Oct 5, 2011
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March 31st, 2013 at 1:08:29 AM permalink
I thought it would be appropriate to start a separate thread just to ASK qeustions of Frank and not to debate him. I have three questions:

1. Does it really make sense to use a practice rig at home, or even your own craps table at home, when it probably will not match the bounce or length or size or table conditions (placement of chips) on a casino table?

2. Wong in his book advocated just throwing dice onto your bed to practice your grip and throw and putting down a sheet of aluminum foil to record stars and stripes for dice control. Is this an acceptable and effective way to practice your throw?

3. Does the Seven to rolls ratio include "numbers" that you don't bet on? It's great if a dice influencer or controller has a marvelous SRR but if he is throwing horn numbers, or 4s and 10s and you're betting the 6 and 8 that SRR seems to be of no significance to you. Is there a more precise or different measurement to see if a dice influencer or dice controller is actually hitting the numbers that count? And wouldn't I just want to measure the numbers I am betting on?

Many thanks.
FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
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March 31st, 2013 at 3:04:24 AM permalink
Hi Alan:

Here is what I like about you. Even if we have a disagreement, you are personable in your discussions. Here are my answers:

1. Does it really make sense to use a practice rig at home, or even your own craps table at home, when it probably will not match the bounce or length or size or table conditions (placement of chips) on a casino table?

ANSWER: Yes, I think it is. Although all tables are different (even in the same casino) you are practicing much like a pitcher does in the outfield, the bullpen, the real mound. Although the major league mounds are the same dimensions from stadium to stadium, if you talk to pitchers they will tell you each mound has its own individual characteristics. So, yes, your practice rig at home will only simulate a casino table. Even a full at-home casino table will only "simulate" a casino table that is actually in a casino. One of the reasons there is a tendency to do somewhat poorer in a real casino is the very fact that each table will be different and your throw must be slightly modified, reducing its effectiveness. As for chips at the other end of the table? You do have to be able to land your dice where the chips are not. I never recommend any shooter asking other players to move their chips. There is actually plenty of room, even with chips spread out near the back wall, to land the dice.

2. Wong in his book advocated just throwing dice onto your bed to practice your grip and throw and putting down a sheet of aluminum foil to record stars and stripes for dice control. Is this an acceptable and effective way to practice your throw?

ANSWER: Wong was a serious student when he took the Golden Touch course. He was attentive and intelligent --- and we didn't have to explain over and over which bets to make and why. ("Gamblers" and "action junkies" fail in the dice control world even if they have a good throw because their betting choices are awful. Most often slide away from practicing at home because the thrill for them is the actual gambling.) I think his idea would be best utilized in your hotel room as a warmup before going down to the tables. Keep in mind that on-axis throws at certain percentages might mean you have to move your set to a 3-V or 2-V or the like but the practice he is recommending might not be the best analysis of your skill. So just landing them on aluminum foil might not have much meaning. But the warm up part would certainly help before going down to the tables.

3. Does the Seven to rolls ratio include "numbers" that you don't bet on? It's great if a dice influencer or controller has a marvelous SRR but if he is throwing horn numbers, or 4s and 10s and you're betting the 6 and 8 that SRR seems to be of no significance to you. Is there a more precise or different measurement to see if a dice influencer or dice controller is actually hitting the numbers that count? And wouldn't I just want to measure the numbers I am betting on?

ANSWER: Yes, sadly, it does. If your axis control is not strong, you will find many sessions where you are htting numbers on which you aren't betting. As your axis-control gets better and better and you pass the SmartCraps tests you will start to see repeating numbers that you are betting on. If you are using the 3-V (which I use), the numbers six and eight are the ones you are going for. Now, I do want to make this clear. Your edge is small so these repeating numbers are not usually so dramatic that in a short trial anyone will notice you are actually making money on short rolls. I've had really, really short rolls where I hit the six a few times and seven-out. I've made money but others have lost money. I also am not afraid to only bet the six. It can be my point and I will place it. My last session two weeks ago saw me doing okay but some of the players at the table thought I was the worst shooter in the place. Yes, I do like to highlight the spectacular when I write but I also caution shooters to expect more of a grind than showtime. Sometimes readers only remember the spectacular and not all the cautions I constantly give them.

One other thing shooters don't realize is that it takes a long time to get any good. I usually say at least six months of practicing almost every day at home before you might start to see consistent results. That is just a guesstimate. It took me three years to get competent --- that can discourage people. So if you play in casinos and you really don't have the skills, you will face a random or almost random game and you can get discouraged. I didn't get discouraged because I was able to see the Arm and the Captain do what I wanted to do and that motivated me.

Frank
odiousgambit
odiousgambit
Joined: Nov 9, 2009
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March 31st, 2013 at 3:30:21 AM permalink
Here's a question:

What did you think of the episode about craps in the Breaking Vegas series?

Did you like your portrayal?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhno_F9vZcw
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
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March 31st, 2013 at 3:58:31 AM permalink
I was an active consultant on that show. When I saw the first half I fell off my chair because it was not what happened. There were no garage practices. Dom was not a part of a Rosebud team. The worst thing, I was really portrayed as a "dick." I have never yelled at a casino worker or been nasty to anyone at a craps table. Suddenly my sleezy character is threatening to kill some stickman. I also think some people have now thought that the character of Frank Scoblete shown in that show is the real Frank Scoblete.

However, other aspects of the show were true. A whole section I wrote about the Captain --- to me he is integral to dice control --- was left out.

So the show is not what I would have wanted shown, especially the stuff that never really happened.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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March 31st, 2013 at 5:31:41 AM permalink
I have a question to add if I may......

First let me say I do believe in "dice influence" vs "dice control" as I have tried it on a practice rig, which is actually a monte-carlo night craps table with pyramids like an alligator on the real thing, though there is no pad below the felt so the dice can really bounce. I have had throws where they stay tight together and just catch the bottom of the back wall so there was little if any bouncing around. If you could do this on even one roll in five you could flip the edge to the player.

So if we accept this, what bets do you suggest a person or team make to take full advantage? Obviously we take pass line and the most free-odds our bankroll can handle but do you also place 6-8? Iron Cross? I tell people if you believe a long roll is coming do what I call a "Modified Iron Cross" which is wait for a 5-6-8 point then do that with free-odds as you can handle, then 2 units in the field and 1 on the remaining 5-6-8 (bumped to a proper bet on the 6-8 of course) so you get a pay on every non-7 roll.

What do you do and suggest?
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
wrighj03
wrighj03
Joined: Mar 25, 2013
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March 31st, 2013 at 6:04:41 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

I have a question to add if I may......

First let me say I do believe in "dice influence" vs "dice control" as I have tried it on a practice rig, which is actually a monte-carlo night craps table with pyramids like an alligator on the real thing, though there is no pad below the felt so the dice can really bounce. I have had throws where they stay tight together and just catch the bottom of the back wall so there was little if any bouncing around. If you could do this on even one roll in five you could flip the edge to the player.

So if we accept this, what bets do you suggest a person or team make to take full advantage? Obviously we take pass line and the most free-odds our bankroll can handle but do you also place 6-8? Iron Cross? I tell people if you believe a long roll is coming do what I call a "Modified Iron Cross" which is wait for a 5-6-8 point then do that with free-odds as you can handle, then 2 units in the field and 1 on the remaining 5-6-8 (bumped to a proper bet on the 6-8 of course) so you get a pay on every non-7 roll.

What do you do and suggest?


I did an experiment using wongs and another guys actual results
Posted on wizard of odds where on the come out I layed the 4/10 field and don't pass. I didn't use any formulas just figured out what I'd make or lose from the come out and the field hurt my results I didn't make as much on a win and costs you the table minimum so I was behind on this sample. Without the field I did much better.

My other favorite is 66 inside regression but only for 1 but max 2 rolls.

Oh and the 5 count.

Can I ask a question.
If you standardize every part of your shot using training aids: grip, arch, length and use a cup to make sure the dice are hitting the same spot the only variables being dice set and arm speed.

Then use the hard way set and smart craps. To get better. Would this work to improve my game?
FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
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March 31st, 2013 at 6:31:58 AM permalink
If you do not have strong axis control, then always use Come betting with odds. I would also go with placing the six and/or eight. Don't go up on too many numbers. I'd skip all the other bets.

With strong axis control, things will change. Then some bets that I tell people never to make can be made and some bets that are great suddenly become not-so-great.

If you could standardize everything --- I mean you were perfect at the outset --- each table in a casino, even if those tables looked exactly alike, will be slightly different. (I consider dice influencing and dice control and rhythmic rolling to be synonyms. I use "dice control" because it has a more powerful impact.)

I am very conservative in my approach and I think months should be taken to really work at it, test oneself, and make sure you have an edge when you put your money on the line. Even with excellent skills, it is not easy.
wrighj03
wrighj03
Joined: Mar 25, 2013
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March 31st, 2013 at 7:30:44 AM permalink
Quote: wrighj03

I did an experiment using wongs and another guys actual results
Posted on wizard of odds where on the come out I layed the 4/10 field and don't pass. I didn't use any formulas just figured out what I'd make or lose from the come out and the field hurt my results I didn't make as much on a win and costs you the table minimum so I was behind on this sample. Without the field I did much better.

My other favorite is 66 inside regression but only for 1 but max 2 rolls.

Oh and the 5 count.

Can I ask a question.
If you standardize every part of your shot using training aids: grip, arch, length and use a cup to make sure the dice are hitting the same spot the only variables being dice set and arm speed.

Then use the hard way set and smart craps. To get better. Would this work to improve my game?


Frank thank you for responding I loved Cutting edge craps. The discussion shed some light on the subject and clarified something's.
With the hard way 1 pip and 6 pip out and random pitch I keep getting the 5/2 or the 2/5 I'm not sure which. And my srr is like 1:3 - 1:4 "worse than random" Any suggestions?
FrankScoblete
FrankScoblete
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March 31st, 2013 at 10:15:01 AM permalink
I haven't seen your throw or landings but check out your ring finger. It is possible that finger is out of alignment with the other two. I'm just guessing now. Of course, "below random" means your throw isn't random. In reality there is no below random; it is either random or not. I use the "below random" statements but it actually means not random.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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March 31st, 2013 at 10:25:38 AM permalink
Quote: wrighj03

Frank thank you for responding I loved Cutting edge craps. The discussion shed some light on the subject and clarified something's.
With the hard way 1 pip and 6 pip out and random pitch I keep getting the 5/2 or the 2/5 I'm not sure which. And my srr is like 1:3 - 1:4 "worse than random" Any suggestions?


Don't change a thing about your throw. Start hopping the three-way seven for $3 and press the winnings. If you truly have a 1/4 or 1/3 chance of rolling a seven, you have an enormous edge over the house.

But be sure about your SRR because otherwise you'll lose a lot of money.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563

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