Casinos would never cheat ....
Quote: bbvk05No, more like your claim is laughable horseshit.
I gave you specific casino examples -- you care to refute with your own specifics
Quote: Harley.... Depends on the casino, but usually Table Games Supervisor or Security controls which dice are carried to the craps pit ... the Boxman is just a simple conduit doing as he is told by those above him .... Boxman usually receives a call from "above" as to which dice are to be played on which table (for example Sam's Town, Golden Nugget, etc.) or they follow a very strict game plan book (ie, Bellagio, Rampart, etc.)
otherwise you just qualified for my ignore list
My contention is that it is done in a very methodical manner ...
Quote: Ahigh...
Casinos chart their income.
Players generally don't.
Casino's track which dice are on the table including the serial number and other detailed information.
Players generally don't.
Casinos suspect dice for being responsible for unusual things happening at the table when they (the casino) are losing at that table.
Players generally don't.
If you're a player, you generally don't. Welcome to the club of players!
Casinos ABSOLUTELY CHANGE THE DICE BASED ON WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE TABLE.
If you don't believe this, you are simply wrong. There is nothing more or less to be said about this argument. Even if you find a casino that doesn't do this, it is ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT CASINOS WILL CHANGE THE DICE DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH MONEY IS BEING WON ON A TABLE.
Do you really think a Boxman or a dealer knows what serial numbered dice has a better Hold -- I doubt it --- it is someone in the Casino Management with access to a computer
I will tell you that I play hours of craps very nearly every single day and I have for over three years. I generally agree with what Harley is saying about tracking which serials are winning/losing money using a computer outside of the view and/or verbalization of the dealers and the pit boss. Those guys are the interface to the player. But there are other conversations that the player never hears that have to do with wins and losses and what is going on related to which dice are in play and where.
I will also tell you that I know for absolute fact that a table can be opened up with older dice in play. In fact it happened to me yesterday at the first place that I played. They were using blue Paulson dice and they were banged up all to hell. When I specifically asked them about being concerned that the dice were not a fresh pair of dice when first opening the table, the dealers merely stated that the casino like to "save money by not changing them as much."
That much I would not disagree with, but it's the details of how they are saving money that is in question. I am 100% sure they were just talking about the fact that a stick of Paulson dice is not cheap like a stick of Alibaba.com dice.
Anyway, in general, I'm going to agree with Harley on knowledge of what various casinos do with respect to their policies on how dice go out onto table and whether they are new dice or dice that have been used before and whether or not those dice are favorable or unfavorable to typical bets at the casino is absolutely not something that the dealers or boxmen are aware of.
Quote: HarleyHere are a few dozen referenced FAILURES by our regulatory environment:
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum31.php&sid=4bd701fb2f31b1a50675af1d01e0e8ac
Thanks for the link to a website for which I need a password to view. This is very helpful. About as helpful as your illogical ramblings on dice cheating by casinos.
Quote: vendman1Quote: HarleyHere are a few dozen referenced FAILURES by our regulatory environment:
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum31.php&sid=4bd701fb2f31b1a50675af1d01e0e8ac
Thanks for the link to a website for which I need a password to view. This is very helpful. About as helpful as your illogical ramblings on dice cheating by casinos.
LoL ... Did you need a password to sign up to this message board - the Wizard's ??!! .... no wonder some of you guy/gals just don't get it .... you have trouble registering for a free website and wiping your asz ..
.... don't worry -- the casinos will wipe your asz for you ...... you are just the kind of customer they are looking for
Try to take his comments more constructively. I would agree that you could benefit from cleaning up some of the information that you're putting out.
And nobody likes an image of an ass being wiped. I am guilty of responding like this when I get emotional too, just trying to be a referee a little bit here.
Let's all calm down a notch.
I also agree that if you a post a link to a website, the information should be out there without needing to sign up.
I opened up GoodShooter.com just for this reason .. I had it closed off for a while and I think being more open is the right approach.
I truly fear nothing and only want to learn more. And in general I am 100% unafraid of the truth no matter what the truth ends up being.
Even if it makes me look more stupid than I already look, I can handle it. I am genuinely interested to learn more.
Previously I had written you off as basically a guy who was lost and maybe even suffering from a mental disorder.
I told you as much and I know others have too.
But work with me here. Let's try to get it as clean as we can. If we all want fair dice, that's some common ground.
Making data public is the best avenue to proceed. Making nasty comments not so much.
Quote: HarleyQuote: vendman1Quote: HarleyHere are a few dozen referenced FAILURES by our regulatory environment:
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum31.php&sid=4bd701fb2f31b1a50675af1d01e0e8ac
Thanks for the link to a website for which I need a password to view. This is very helpful. About as helpful as your illogical ramblings on dice cheating by casinos.
LoL ... Did you need a password to sign up to this message board - the Wizard's ??!! .... no wonder some of you guy/gals just don't get it .... you have trouble registering for a free website and wiping your asz ..
.... don't worry -- the casinos will wipe your asz for you ...... you are just the kind of customer they are looking for
You just keep getting dumber and dumber. No, you do not need a password or to register to view the posts in this forum. I give up on you. Not because I don't enjoy the easy target you have made of yourself with your totally delusional accusations, but the second I heard that you actually wore a mask to a get together to hide your true identity, it became quite clear that your mental state is more than questionable and there is no point in continuing with someone in your condition.
Good luck to you in your Superhero quest(mask and all) to fight the evil people in the ceiling that control the dice.
ZCore13
Quote: HarleyQuote: vendman1Quote: HarleyHere are a few dozen referenced FAILURES by our regulatory environment:
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum31.php&sid=4bd701fb2f31b1a50675af1d01e0e8ac
Thanks for the link to a website for which I need a password to view. This is very helpful. About as helpful as your illogical ramblings on dice cheating by casinos.
LoL ... Did you need a password to sign up to this message board - the Wizard's ??!! .... no wonder some of you guy/gals just don't get it .... you have trouble registering for a free website and wiping your asz ..
.... don't worry -- the casinos will wipe your asz for you ...... you are just the kind of customer they are looking for
Haha this guy wears a mask in public and then expects us to just make a username and password for a site that he links to.... Right.
Quote: Harley
Do you really think a Boxman or a dealer knows what serial numbered dice has a better Hold -- I doubt it --- it is someone in the Casino Management with access to a computer
Nope. Your stupid question presupposes that casinos have dice they know are biased and deploy them intentionally at different times. I don't think casinos believe they have biased dice. I think they change the dice because they are worried someone has an edge via particular set of dice when they are losing.
Quote: AhighThere are other conversations that the player never hears that have to do with wins and losses and what is going on related to which dice are in play and where.
So you're privy to what transpires behind the glittering emerald green curtain. Big deal. Tell us what happened when you bet the Field.
Quote: AhighI am 100% sure they were just talking about the fact that a stick of Paulson dice is not cheap like a stick of Alibaba.com dice.
The difference being . . .?
Quote: AhighWhen a table starts paying players a lot of money at a casino, it is not uncommon for additional people to arrive behind the table. It is surveillance that typically notifies the pit boss or other individuals to stand behind and watch as larger amount of money start going out.
<snip>
Anyway, in general, I'm going to agree with Harley on knowledge of what various casinos do with respect to their policies on how dice go out onto table and whether they are new dice or dice that have been used before and whether or not those dice are favorable or unfavorable to typical bets at the casino is absolutely not something that the dealers or boxmen are aware of.
I suppose this’ll get ignored just like my correction of Harley claiming the Wynn dice sliders were actually DI’s, but in an attempt to supply fact into this sea of conjecture for those lurkers interested in the subject, I’ll say it again - Surv doesn’t give a rip about DI.
In all the conferences I’ve been to, all the biggest Surv guys I’ve spoken to; Zender, Allison, Hoke, Martin, and a ton of Directors from around the US and world, never in the history of ever has DI been so much as mentioned. Not because it’s unknown, but because there has not yet been a documented case of threat, and the evidence of the studies out there likewise raise no concern.
Before you get defensive, I am not calling you a liar. Perhaps Surv really did call for a change. But know that Surv and casino personnel in general are no different than life – they contain their fair share of dummies. Folks who still believe red is “due”, that slots “get hot”, and, I assume, that die are “bad luck”. If you truly are here to prove something from a mathematical/scientific standpoint, do not use stuff like the above as a sign that you’re on to something or proof that it exists. It can blind you from the truth, a truth of which I hope you find.
Quote: Harleywhat's your point ? .... my point is the Boxman and dealers as well as the Pit Boss have no clue as to the balance or imbalance of the dice in most Nevada casinos ... all that is done behind closed doors (or incorrectly on the floor just for show) ... the decision to put what dice on what table is done from beyond the Crap's Pit
My contention is that it is done in a very methodical manner ...
Do you really think a Boxman or a dealer knows what serial numbered dice has a better Hold -- I doubt it --- it is someone in the Casino Management with access to a computer
Just so we're clear, you are alleging a widespread conspiracy that several (if not many) casinos are committing ongoing felonious fraudulent acts in dice games. What you describe is a blatant violation of several sections of NRS 465.
Quote: FaceI suppose this’ll get ignored just like my correction of Harley claiming the Wynn dice sliders were actually DI’s,
Dear Face .... please supply a quote and reference that I said the Wynn Dice Sliders were DI's ... I never said they were DIs ....
Quote: HarleyAHigh .... the Wynn Sliding dice story from late 2011 where several dealers and box were mysteriously fired and several players had trumped up civil charges filed against them was a case where some smart players exploited biased dice legally .... the facts of the case as reported do not make sense and a security friend of ours saw the video tape --- there was no sliding of the dice as alleged
.. I however did not correctly state my original position when I said they did not slide the dice -- they did not slide the dice in a manner that Bill Zender or Sal “THE HITMAN” would describe as a slide on Youtube --- and I believe you are making the same point
Quote: FaceI saw that footage. Several times, actually, wrote about it here.
That had zero to do with biased die, DI, DC, or anything else. It was 100% short-throw sliding, and a ridiculous example of it as well.
I'd take all of the player's money away just because it was such a sad example. I'd then award it right back due to the complete idiocy of the dealing squad that night.
I don't have a dog in this fight, just wanted to correct misinformation. Carry on...
I still contend they exploited biased dice in their venture ..... BTW, Steve Wynn had speed bumps put into the surface of his tables to prevent the amateur dice "sliding" to ever occur again
Quote: FaceIn all the conferences I’ve been to, all the biggest Surv guys I’ve spoken to; Zender, Allison, Hoke, Martin, and a ton of Directors from around the US and world, never in the history of ever has DI been so much as mentioned. Not because it’s unknown, but because there has not yet been a documented case of threat, and the evidence of the studies out there likewise raise no concern.
Actually, every casino that has a crapshooter table or tub (or table with a bump) takes extra countermeasures against DIs, due to the short distances. Casinos believe that dice influencing is a matter of degree, relative to the shooting distance.
If it is a matter of degree, then dice influencing can't be absolutely impossible.
Furthermore, there are several documented cases of dice influencing, even some cases with a lot of money "on the line."
Quote: HarleyDear Face .... please supply a quote and reference that I said the Wynn Dice Sliders were DI's ... I never said they were DIs ....
.. I however did not correctly state my original position when I said they did not slide the dice -- they did not slide the dice in a manner that Bill Zender or Sal “THE HITMAN” would describe as a slide on Youtube --- and I believe you are making the same point
I still contend they exploited biased dice in their venture ..... BTW, Steve Wynn had speed bumps put into the surface of his tables to prevent the amateur dice "sliding" to ever occur again
Nope, you’re right. I misspoke. I wasn’t DI, it was biased die, as shown here…
Quote: HarleyAHigh .... the Wynn Sliding dice story from late 2011 where several dealers and box were mysteriously fired and several players had trumped up civil charges filed against them was a case where some smart players exploited biased dice legally .... the facts of the case as reported do not make sense and a security friend of ours saw the video tape --- there was no sliding of the dice as alleged
The post in question can be found here
However, I still call shenanigans. I haven’t seen anything YouTube based, but Zender was there when I saw the slide, was actually part of the presentation, and that’s simply what it was. I wrote about it here, lemme go yank some text…
Quote: Face from WGPC blogI don't know if it was ever shown here, but I got to see the Surveillance footage of the Wynn dice sliding incident. I wasn't sure whether to laugh, cry, or just throw up. Guys... this dude was standing right at the stick. He set the dice on top of each other and PUSHED them, in exactly the same fashion a dealer would push out a stack of cheques to you. You know, the hold the bottom with thumb and middle finger, push down on the top with index finger...that's how he "threw" the dice! If that wasn't bad enough, on many of the throws the bottom die didn't even make it to the "E" in "COME"!! In the majority of the throws, it didn't even make it past the "C" in "COME"!! Throw after throw...it was expletive crazy, I couldn't believe it. More than anything this week, that just stands out as the biggest WTF moment I have ever seen in Game Protection.
The bottom die never left the table, and never made it past the letters “C-O-M-E” in the come box. The die on top likewise wasn’t “thrown”, it simply fell from the top of the bottom die, and rolled to the wall with the force of the push. Perhaps I misunderstand the concept of biased die, but to me, that can be described as nothing other than a slide.
Quote: FaceI’ll say it again - Surv doesn’t give a rip about DI.
.
Good post, Face, you nailed it. Here's the thing
about casinos. I often keep track in a notebook
or on a card, of the spins when I'm playing
roulette. This sometimes is of great interest to
the pit. They ask what I'm doing and I say I have
a bad back and its hard for me to look up at
the marquee a lot. They always buy that and
leave me alone.
If I were to tell them I have a winning method
and I'm here to beat them and I need to keep
track on my card to do so, they might laugh and
scoff and say something sarcastic. But I guarantee
if I start winning, even if its just luck, they will
tell me to put the card away. You can't tell them
you have a method that wins and then start winning,
they aren't stupid. They'll play it safe every time.
Just like DI, they know I'm no threat, they don't believe
I can win, but their job is to protect the bottom line.
I'd do the same thing if I were them.
Quote: MathExtremistJust so we're clear, you are alleging a widespread conspiracy that several (if not many) casinos are committing ongoing felonious fraudulent acts in dice games. What you describe is a blatant violation of several sections of NRS 465.
Simple answer - yes ...... see a sample list of casinos here (no password needed)
http://crapsadvantageplayers.blogspot.com/p/cheating-casinos.html
See NRS 465 here http://www.leg.state.nv.us/Division/Legal/LawLibrary/NRS/NRS-465.html
Then ask yourself in this Wild Wild West of Nevada with ZERO dice specifications or crap laws,
- what is the risk to reward ratio of getting caught ? ..... $10,000. fine IF PROVEN vs. approx. $2,000,000. extra per month cash per casino (Caesar's example).
- What are the jurisdictional problems involved .... dice are made in Mexico and China ?
- NGC refuses to enforce whatever laws with their caliper - they say their inaccurate dice balancing caliper is the only one that can be used in court
- and there are no dice specification laws which in the Wild Wild West allows for thousands of so-called experts to point fingers at graphs and say "he said she said"
Quote: Steven L Forte in his book “Casino Game Protection: A Comprehensive Guide”, page 247The bottom line: in jurisdictions without regulations that set forth an acceptable range of tolerances or standards, it can be difficult to state when a die is legally acceptable, or when it should be deemed a cheating device.
Quote: Harley$10,000. fine IF PROVEN vs. approx. $2,000,000. extra per month cash per casino (Caesar's example).
I and quite a few other folks would just love to know when you'll be playing -- and presumably losing -- at Caesars.
Please do us the favor of posting the next losing appearance.
Quote: SanchoPanzaI and quite a few other folks would just love to know when you'll be playing -- and presumably losing -- at Caesars.
Please do us the favor of posting the next losing appearance.
LoL .... as if
..... yea right .... in your dreams
Quote:
Face
In all the conferences I’ve been to, all the biggest Surv guys I’ve spoken to; Zender, Allison, Hoke, Martin, and a ton of Directors from around the US and world, never in the history of ever has DI been so much as mentioned. Not because it’s unknown, but because there has not yet been a documented case of threat, and the evidence of the studies out there likewise raise no concern.
Here is a link that you should see about the Dice Setters, because you are saying the casinos don't care about the dice setters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me5vgKkFUXA
So I have one question for you , if they don't care about it, then why is Bill Zender even talking about it. Trying to get the casinos to stop hassling the guys that are setting the dice.
The casinos are still running off players, that set the dice when they are just getting lucky and are on a lucky roll! Could it be that they have read all the fiction that is written about the DI's that they too believe that a DI is going to take all their chips off the tables?
Also please tell me why some DI's have been banned from playing craps, was it just because they were getting lucky, and all casinos sweat the money, that have banned any DI?
From your view point nobody should ever have to put up with the casinos foolishness when they start telling a shooter to hit the back wall only because they missed it once in 25 rolls of the dice!
Quote: tuppActually, every casino that has a crapshooter table or tub (or table with a bump) takes extra countermeasures against DIs, due to the short distances. Casinos believe that dice influencing is a matter of degree, relative to the shooting distance.
If it is a matter of degree, then dice influencing can't be absolutely impossible.
Furthermore, there are several documented cases of dice influencing, even some cases with a lot of money "on the line."
For the record, I don’t think DI is impossible.
I’m a shooter myself. Firearms, but I think the concept applies. Any repeatable action should give repeatable results, it’s simple physics. In the case of a firearm, there are certain variables; the amount of powder in a case down to the molecule, the shape of the round to the molecular level, deformation of the rifling and barrel on a molecular level after each shot. The temperature, wind, humidity and density are ever changing. The tolerance in the weapon itself allows miniscule wiggle. And then there’s the human element of being able to keep it steady during the pulling of the trigger. However, most of these variables can be overcome, allowing someone to punch 5 rounds through paper at 100yds, all in a sub 2” group. This is a fact that is reproducible, and can be demonstrated. You can even “math out” how changes in some of the variables will affect things and the results will indeed follow the math.
If you could somehow eliminate all of the above variables, you should be able to punch 5 rounds through the same hole at 300yds. Physics says you must.
I find DI to be the exact same concept. The big question is “how many variables need be overcome?” Oil, spilled beer, etc covering the dice by contact are one. The deformation of the felt upon contact is another. The deformation of the pyramids, the deformation of the die themselves, the change in the properties of the air, it’s a big list.
Knowing how these variables affect the die, as far as I know, isn’t known yet. I haven’t even read anything that supposes how much or how little it matters. We know it affects things, we know it must, but we have no idea to what degree.
We know humans can do surprising things with muscle memory, just look at professional sports and competitive games. But again, to what level such skill needs to be is not known. To make an analogy, do you need the accuracy to hit a bulls-eye, or just somewhere in a strike zone?
So we don’t know to what degree the variables need be overcome, we know little about which variables are more important, we only sort of have an idea as to how accurate one must be, but there are those in both the Yay and Nay camps who already declare they are the ones who are right with not much scientific evidence to support it. And for those of us still with an open mind, we only have anecdotes, conjecture, and a test that was both short, as well as wishy-washy (I think Wong convinced himself to DI, then retracted that belief).
I think there are many of us here that don’t have a stake way or the other, but we’re interested in the science. A lot of the arguing from the Nays seems to be the pointing out that X doesn’t necessarily mean something, which I had hoped would result in the Yays to bring some solid evidence to the table. But ever since Ahigh started with his videos (which began the process of providing evidence), the idea has seemed to come off the rails, with people trying to instead argue their way into truth. “Arguing into truth” isn’t possible when the evidence is there and is obtainable. Someone just has to get it.
If DIs just want to argue, that’s fine. There are plenty here that will be more than willing to engage. But if they want to be taken seriously, if they want to make a discovery, if they want to produce a treasure of knowledge, they need to produce facts and evidence. Without, every one of these craps threads are going to decay into little more than pissing contests, a place many already seem to be headed.
Tl;dr – Prove it.
Quote: superrickSo I have one question for you , if they don't care about it, then why is Bill Zender even talking about it. Trying to get the casinos to stop hassling the guys that are setting the dice.
Quote: Face... Surv and casino personnel in general are no different than life – they contain their fair share of dummies.
That includes dummies who chase off a great number of paying patrons over a fear that they'll get "taken", all the while pissing money out the window with back-offs and bars.
Zender is trying to get casinos to stop stepping over dollars to pick up a dime. I'm in his camp.
And yes, I think it's stupid if a casino bans, bars, or bitches about back wall if you miss once in 25. You should vote with your feet.
Quote:
Headlock
Does the Nevada Gaming Commission perform unannounced inspections of the dice in play?
I’ve never seen them do that, nor have I every heard of them doing it. We’ve been told by gaming that they only have two balancers in the state on NV to balance the dice, one if for the north and one for the south of the state.
Quote: HarleyLoL .... as if ..... yea right .... in your dreams
If you shy away from advising us of your next session at Caesars, how about relating to us what happened at the last visit?
Quote: superrickQuote:
Headlock
Does the Nevada Gaming Commission perform unannounced inspections of the dice in play?
I’ve never seen them do that, nor have I every heard of them doing it. We’ve been told by gaming that they only have two balancers in the state on NV to balance the dice, one if for the north and one for the south of the state.
I concur with SuperRick ..... our Dice Research Team met with Nevada Gaming Commission and their official non-working dice balancing caliper that tried to measure several of our captured evidence of unbalanced dice from Nevada casinos ...... minutes from that meeting:
Quote: Biased Dice Research Team meeting with NSGCB/Enforcement Division
- NSGCB Agent Jim Edwards said he would be available to audit dice from any Nevada casino within 30 minutes of receiving a call if we suspected Biased dice. An auditor would arrive at the casino and give the Pit Supervisor a 5 minute warning that he would be confiscating the dice from the table, thus allowing the Casino a chance to get a new stick of dice so as not to interfere with operations;
- We presented our unbalanced dice evidence from 6 casinos -- showing how the standard dice balancing caliper clearly proved that live casino dice were unbalanced and being used to change the odds;
- Then the NSGCB Agent Jim Edwards explained how he would conduct the audit upon arriving at the casino -- he would first put the dice in a micrometer --- he demonstrated with our bad dice. He showed us how the dice were almost perfectly square -- again we had no argument with his findings. Then he pulled out his 50 year old all metal dice balancing caliper that weighed nearly 5 pounds and proceeded to spin the unbalanced dice --- the result was that the official NSGCB dice balancing equipment DID NOT WORK.
We then presented this same unbalanced dice evidence from the 6 casinos to AHigh to measure in his advanced superior dice balancing caliper. AHigh's caliper showed that the dice presented to the Nevada Gaming Commission were out of balance. 2 out of 3 dice balancers showed the dice were out of balance .... only the Nevada Gaming Commission caliper showed the dice were balanced
Now do you understand how the Fox is guarding the Hen house ... and shunning its fiduciary duty
ZCore13
Quote: Harley
Now do you understand how the Fox is guarding the Hen house ... and shunning its fiduciary duty
This analogy seems wrong. For the fox to be guiding the henhouse, the NGC would have to be directly involved in shaving the dice, or packed with people from the casino corporations and overlooking it on purpose. This is more like "Nobody's guarding the henhouse." or "The henhouse's security system is broken." The NGC's inability to detect the unbalanced dice doesn't make them a willing participant in the alleged "cheating".
But just because the dice are unbalanced doesn't mean there has to be a giant corporate conspiracy to steal from players, in my opinion. You need more than that to convince me.
Quote: HarleyAHigh's caliper showed that the dice presented to the Nevada Gaming Commission were out of balance. 2 out of 3 dice balancers showed the dice were out of balance .... only the Nevada Gaming Commission caliper showed the dice were balanced
Now do you understand how the Fox is guarding the Hen house ... and shunning its fiduciary duty
I’ve a question (and despite my skepticism, it’s honest)
I must believe that every single die ever produced must be biased. After all, we’re not talking aerospace here; we’re just mass producing plastic cubes.
How much bias is needed to see a biased result in, say, a 100 roll session? Is there a certain percentage of mass or measurable weight to say yes, this one will work?
Quote: superrickQuote:
Face
In all the conferences I’ve been to, all the biggest Surv guys I’ve spoken to; Zender, Allison, Hoke, Martin, and a ton of Directors from around the US and world, never in the history of ever has DI been so much as mentioned. Not because it’s unknown, but because there has not yet been a documented case of threat, and the evidence of the studies out there likewise raise no concern.
Here is a link that you should see about the Dice Setters, because you are saying the casinos don't care about the dice setters.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me5vgKkFUXA
So I have one question for you , if they don't care about it, then why is Bill Zender even talking about it. Trying to get the casinos to stop hassling the guys that are setting the dice.
The casinos are still running off players, that set the dice when they are just getting lucky and are on a lucky roll! Could it be that they have read all the fiction that is written about the DI's that they too believe that a DI is going to take all their chips off the tables?
Also please tell me why some DI's have been banned from playing craps, was it just because they were getting lucky, and all casinos sweat the money, that have banned any DI?
From your view point nobody should ever have to put up with the casinos foolishness when they start telling a shooter to hit the back wall only because they missed it once in 25 rolls of the dice!
Good YouTube post
But what I got out of that segment is that he was reassuring them that they don't have anything to worry about...
All the dogma, throwing techniques and general landing of the dice are already known.. He merely showing that the only person the DI is fooling are themselves...
1. Dice influencing, and any attempt by the shooter to make the dice go "his way" (with the exception of sliding) is an expected part of the game. That from the enforcement division of the Nevada Gaming Commission.
2. If casinos don't want to do business with dice influencers, they don't have to. They can choose who to do business with.
3. Dice influencing is not illegal. Card Counting in blackjack is not illegal, yet casinos have the right and exercise the right not to do business with card counters.
And about this dice balancing machine that the Nevada gaming officials use: what do you mean by it didn't work? Do you mean it didn't show any bias or it failed to spin?
I still have never experienced, seen or suspected any dice that appeared to be biased, off balanced, or tampered with at any casino I've ever played at. I've only seen dice "changed out" during routine intervals, and NEVER during a player's hot hand and ALWAYS between the change of shooters.
And not even that because some of these Dice Influencing types are standing there with a minimum bet on the line and not even an odds bet much less any other bet. Gadzooks you would think if those darned DIs really believed in their own nonsense they would at least be putting some real money on the line, but they are not.Quote: TheWolf713He merely showing that the only person the DI is fooling are themselves...
Quote: FaceI’ve a question (and despite my skepticism, it’s honest)
I must believe that every single die ever produced must be biased. After all, we’re not talking aerospace here; we’re just mass producing plastic cubes.
How much bias is needed to see a biased result in, say, a 100 roll session? Is there a certain percentage of mass or measurable weight to say yes, this one will work?
Nobody has ever demonstrated that a slightly unbalanced die (not a load, just a standard die with a center of mass slightly off-center) has a noticeable impact, or even any impact at all, on the face distributions over the useful life of that die. Even if there were a known causality between a die having imbalance B and biased (non-uniform) face distribution D, nobody has demonstrated that all dice have imbalance B. As I previously noted, unless the imbalance in all dice is the same, the aggregate face distribution results will average out and tend toward uniform at one in six for each face. The only large scale data we have, casino revenue statistics, shows consistent revenue results over a multi-year period. Therefore, we can reject the theories that (a) unintentionally unbalanced dice in casinos has any impact on the overall game, and (b) casinos are systematically increasing their craps win by fraudulently using intentionally unbalanced dice.
Quote: FaceI’ve a question (and despite my skepticism, it’s honest)
I must believe that every single die ever produced must be biased. After all, we’re not talking aerospace here; we’re just mass producing plastic cubes.
How much bias is needed to see a biased result in, say, a 100 roll session? Is there a certain percentage of mass or measurable weight to say yes, this one will work?
Persi Diaconis, a Stanford Professor of Mathematics and former magician, once commissioned a precisely milled set of off-dice. His graduate students made more errors recording the bias dice than the dice displayed in deviating from what was expected.
So the "toy dice" that you get in some kids craps game are not really all that much "off".
Quote: MathExtremistNobody has ever demonstrated that a slightly unbalanced die (not a load, just a standard die with a center of mass slightly off-center) has a noticeable impact, or even any impact at all, on the face distributions over the useful life of that die. Even if there were a known causality between a die having imbalance B and biased (non-uniform) face distribution D, nobody has demonstrated that all dice have imbalance B. As I previously noted, unless the imbalance in all dice is the same, the aggregate face distribution results will average out and tend toward uniform at one in six for each face. The only large scale data we have, casino revenue statistics, shows consistent revenue results over a multi-year period. Therefore, we can reject the theories that (a) unintentionally unbalanced dice in casinos has any impact on the overall game, and (b) casinos are systematically increasing their craps win by fraudulently using intentionally unbalanced dice.
Well said.
I know you mean well, but please refrain from entering logic is an otherwise stimulation discussion. I and The Masked Man thank you for your consideration !
all except for one guy .... Kemo Sabe!
In his case it's going to be "who's that guy?" "I dunno!"
Quote: odiousgambit
all except for one guy .... Kemo Sabe!
In his case it's going to be "who's that guy?" "I dunno!"
LOL! The Masked Man, the gift that keeps on
giving. The inside joke that will live on and on..
Read more: http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/mar/18/nj-caesars-high-roller-settlement/#ixzz2O0QbwnrC
This story is brought to you by the Associated Press and Las Vegas Sun
Let’s see Caesars won somewhere around $200 million at Caesars Palace and the Rio Hotel Casino in Las Vegas
Then Watanabe refused to pay $14.7 million so he was indicted by the grand jury, but criminal charges were dropped, after he settled with the company.
Now Caesars got to keep the $200 million after they feed him drugs, booze and what ever else they could do to keep him at the tables, and nothing happened to them in NV, but NJ got them on a $250,000 fine.
I’ll take the deal any day of the week if I was Caesars, Please., Please don’t tell me that a casino would cheat!
People play craps (the MAJORITY OF PEOPLE) with the intentions that they're in a perfect world and they're going to bet with the lowest math (Pass/DP, Come/DC, Place 6/8)
BUT...we don't play craps in a perfect world...the dice behave the way they want to, plain and simple...If they left the same two dice on the crap table for the rest of eternity..they may NEVER see a 1.4% HE on the passline...while they MAY see a 0% edge on the Boxcars bet...
Quote: SanchoPanzaI and quite a few other folks would just love to know when you'll be playing -- and presumably losing -- at Caesars.
Please do us the favor of posting the next losing appearance.
... If you shy away from advising us of your next session at Caesars, how about relating to us what happened at the last visit?
Why should I ? ..... you guys don't pay me enough to entertain you
Quote: HarleyWhy should I ? ..... you guys don't pay me enough to entertain you
How much would you charge to not entertain us ?
It would be money well spent !
Quote: BuzzardHow much would you charge to not entertain us ?
It would be money well spent !
$20 to enter. $200 to leave
Quote: Gabes22$20 to enter. $200 to leave
What a bargain !
If you left the same two dice on the table for the rest of eternity (assuming they didn't get deformed), you would ABSOLUTELY 100% see a 1.4% edge on the passline, and a 13.89% edge on the boxcars. That's assuming no bias, dice control/influence, etc.Quote: TIMSPEEDBUT...we don't play craps in a perfect world...the dice behave the way they want to, plain and simple...If they left the same two dice on the crap table for the rest of eternity..they may NEVER see a 1.4% HE on the passline...while they MAY see a 0% edge on the Boxcars bet...
It's not a hoax, the 1.4% house edge is real! (Whatever happened to tuttigym?)
