Casinos would never cheat ....
This is Koganinja, just wanted to step out of the shadows for a minute and give you a shout-out. It’s awesome to see the great work you and HarleyHorn have been doing, it’s great to see two super smart guys make new discoveries with the bad dice that are out here in Vegas.
I for one NEVER thought I would ever see you come to the conclusion that unbalanced dice are a real thing. As for what I have read on this forum I can see you are fighting an uphill battle trying to get the many viewers of this site to believe what Harley, Myself and now you know to be a real ongoing thing, that yes there are bad dice being used.
Over the last year and so months I have had every bit of B.S. thrown at me from Axis Crap, GTC, Mad Pro., Dice Coach Camp, Wizard, you, and every other dice camp on the plant. So yes, I know your probably really frustrated trying to get everyone to see the truth on this site. However, my advice if you want to take it, is don’t try so hard getting people to believe it, when it happens it will happen. It’s for this reason I personally don’t come to these types of forums, I don’t want to be in useless arguments with people and a part of a clique as many of this sites tend to be it’s just not my flow. I would rather be out shooting dice and making money. I just tend to be a straight to the point kind of guy.
But anyway, at this point in my dice control journey I have presented the information to the public and it will be up to them to do with it what they want with it. However, some will never see it for what it is. Also, I want to say here publicly you are the only one who ever tried to disprove my findings with a video response to my first two videos, so my hats off to you on that! Out of all the gurus out there you were the only one who tried! Anyway, just wanted to say good work on everything you have discovered to this point and I’m sure you and HarleyHorn will come up with some fresh new things we can all benefit from.
Again I just wanted to say hey and keep up all the fine work!
Thanx,
Koganinja
To me, the heavy six-one dice are just theory even still. But each time I record a session where the six face and the one face are the heaviest, the evidence is absolutely there.
There is not enough evidence for me to prove anything, and I don't expect anyone to believe in the theory. Especially on this website.
But people that come to a knee-jerk reaction like I did 18 months ago don't realize how much work I have done on this subject to this point.
Just the fact that I am continuing to be open to the possibility is very difficult for me. I would much rather close the case.
This story has more drama than the OJ trial.
To me the funniest part of this story is that the casinos aren't asking me about my balance. I mean they don't care. There's no problem for them.
It's not that often that somebody has a run in the field. Much less often than someone getting killed with max odds.
What would they be worried about if this were true? Someone laying max odds on the lay bets? In theory, there is exposure there when you're getting more sixes than ones from hitting more of the higher box numbers for example. But if the sixes and ones cancel each other out, there's no fear on that side either. Plus you need a big bankroll to overcome the edge on the don't and DC .. meaning you need a 10x table or better to exploit.
It's still much easier to get lucky.
These long-term effects on the hold don't matter to individuals in general. Even locals with consistent betting strategies that always bet the same way the only way I can imagine it affecting them is that they might survive a little longer making horn bets than they should.
It's a very interesting theory and story resulting from the theory.
I only wish a million throws of a stick of dice without biasing the dice in the process were easier to do as a test. The labor is an annoying part of this research.
The switching of the die to create an advantage over players is the part I say does not happen in an U.S. Casino.
ZCore13
Quote: Leonardo Da VinciThere are 3 classes of people:
- Those who see;
- Those who see when they are shown;
- Those who do not see;
Quote: Zcore13
The switching of the die to create an advantage over players is the part I say does not happen in an U.S. Casino.
ZCore13
If it did, I would think we would hear more "whistleblower" stories than we actually do.
Quote: Zcore13The accusation that a die could be a tad off balance is not all that unbelievable. The contention that the Casino knows exactly which die (dice) are off balance and uses this to their advantage by switching them back and forth based on how poeple are playing/winning is the part that makes those that are claiming it seem delusional.
The switching of the die to create an advantage over players is the part I say does not happen in an U.S. Casino.
ZCore13
I made this point to Harley, but let me make it more public:
Casinos chart their income.
Players generally don't.
Casino's track which dice are on the table including the serial number and other detailed information.
Players generally don't.
Casinos suspect dice for being responsible for unusual things happening at the table when they (the casino) are losing at that table.
Players generally don't.
If you're a player, you generally don't. Welcome to the club of players!
Casinos ABSOLUTELY CHANGE THE DICE BASED ON WHAT IS HAPPENING AT THE TABLE.
If you don't believe this, you are simply wrong. There is nothing more or less to be said about this argument. Even if you find a casino that doesn't do this, it is ABSOLUTELY TRUE THAT CASINOS WILL CHANGE THE DICE DEPENDING ON HOW MUCH MONEY IS BEING WON ON A TABLE.
Which of the above claims do you specifically disagree with? An advantage is created when the dice are made to be more fair relative to dice that are less fair that a player is obtaining the advantage. Therefore, this qualifies as "switching of the die to create an advantage over players." The advantage is that the casino can change the dice, and the player has to use whatever stick of dice is available at the time.
This is just to get started even before we talk about theoretically idealized dice for specific and/or expected betting patterns based on day of the week and time of the day.
Do you still believe that casinos won't at least try to remove dice that are favoring a player's bets to get a fresh brand new stick of dice that should be more fair? Do you say that this is happening but it's not an advantage "over players?"
If you agree with all I have said above, maybe you can refine your argument for what you feel is not happening to not include that they are knowingly putting what could loosely be described as "percentage dice" on the table for their own benefit.
I think the possibility that they are knowingly putting percentage dice out on the table is a very real possibility at this point after doing more data collections recently. I have more data that I have not yet published.
I also encourage others to do their own records to find out for themselves.
I thought this was all 100% BS until I started looking at the data and seeing the patterns appearing very frequently on the six face and the ace face.
It's hard work and lots of data collection requiring lots of time during busy and/or peak hours at a casino craps table, but anybody can do this!
Quote:Harley
That was a fun read down memory lane and how we have evolved with new data, information and brainstorming ideas from the Wizards' site and members !!!
... big kudos and credits to Wizards' members as well as GoodShooter.com for allowing an open discussion of the Biased dice issue ...... SuperRick and I have been banned from Heavy's axispowercraps.com message board and DiceInstitute.com for trying to discuss the subject of Biased dice
".. we have evolved with new data" is another stretch of opinion and speculation.
AHigh to his credit applied a scientific method approach to observe Up Face Numbers and test(s) for goodness-of-fit with the chi-test confidence method. The present limited number of samples have yet to come close to a 95 percent confidence that chance is not involved in the observed Up Face Numbers distributions
AHigh's WHAT-IF computer analysis of an observed UP FACE distribution to determine edge of bets may be interesting, but it does not substantiate Harley's "evolution of data" let alone support Harley's opinions / speculations that fabricated dice with center of gravity offsets ( Biased Dice) are at the core of the Face Numbers distribution or craps outcomes observations.
Harley and his Research Team have yet to present one testable scientific method hypothesis to support Biased dice notions. They don't address the existence of "Kinetics (physics), the study of motion and its causes"; "Rigid body kinetics, the study of the motion of rigid bodies"; as well as variance in data observations as factors in craps outcomes or in support of the speculations that fabricated dice with center of gravity offsets ( Biased Dice) give Casinos their basic advantages in the negative expectation game of Craps. They ignore Scarne's "Dice that are everything they should be are known as square dice, perfects or levels, The most obvious method of making a "false set" is to weight them so that one or more sides are heavier than the others. ...." (see REF A: pg 213). They are also quiet on Scarne's WATER and SCRATCH TEST (s) while not mentioning that a PIVOT TEST should be run on all four possible spin axes per Scarne.
The threads of "BAD DICE: the saga CONTINUES" and "Casinos would never cheat .... '" may well go on based on the foundations of opinions, speculations and on casual observations of craps outcomes rather than rigorous or scientific analysis or the scientific method as a minimum.
Ahigh deserves acknowledgements and credits for his efforts to bring knowledge to this topic.
REFA: SCARNE on dice by John Scarne [ published 1974 by STACKPOLE BOOKS revised and updated edition ISBN 0811715167 ]
Chapters 12 and 13 (pp 213 thru 253) for as he wrote on pg 252, "KNOWLEDGE IS PROTECTION". Also, look at details of Scarne' s "PIVOT TEST" on pg 220, "THE WATER TEST" on pg 220, "SCRATCH TEST" on pg 221 and a Loaded Dice Advertisement ( with Filled Transparent Dice) of Fig. 7 on pg 223
The guy swabbing out the toilets each morning might think he knows how to crank up the oxygen, re-cycle the slot machines and switch in some modified dice but all he ever really has the option of doing is choosing which bathroom he cleans first.
A pair of dice whether carefully milled to be "off" or whether worn from use and now somewhat "off" will not be retained for use in the casino simply because its more dangerous to the casino's bottom line than a perfect set of dice would be.
Quote: aparadimAHigh to his credit applied a scientific method approach to observe Up Face Numbers and test(s) for goodness-of-fit with the chi-test confidence method. The present limited number of samples have yet to come close to a 95 percent confidence that chance is not involved in the observed Up Face Numbers distributions
The scientific method also usually requires strict procedures like control groups and the ability to reproduce the results. The lack of such basic tenets along with the results from extremely small samples that fail to stray far from standard deviations are further handicaps.
Quote: FleaStiffA pair of dice whether carefully milled to be "off" or whether worn from use and now somewhat "off" will not be retained for use in the casino simply because its more dangerous to the casino's bottom line than a perfect set of dice would be.
As confirmed by the case of the Golden Nugget's using the pre-shuffled deck in baccarat that resulted in their million-dollar-plus loss and ensuing legal hullabaloo.
You just don't understand how a Casino works, what regulations are put on Casinos and the ramifications of just one person exposing that a Casino is doing something like this. You are looking at it from the outside with absolutely not one shred of proof that there is a consperiecy to change dice knowing that the dice are biased. Of all the people that have ever worked at a Casino you say this happens at, is there one current or former person that can confirm this? Wouldn't there be some documentation? There would have to be to know which dice are which. Do you know how valuable a copy of that document would be? I'd venture to say I could get a few hundred thousand dollars for that document from a major newspaper, magazine or tv show. Do you think every employee of a Casino is out to "get" the customer and there is such a tight bond between these employees that none would break the code of silence?
You're living in a dream world.
ZCore13
who think that casino dice aren't fair. Find
another game to play if you think you're
getting a raw deal. Or just keep complaining
forever, knowing full well the casino doesn't
care and will never address the issue.
Quote: Zcore13Yes, a Casino will change the dice when they feel like things are going against what normal odds would be, but that is a result of superstition or game protection, with the possibility of someone cheating. The dice being changed is not a move from one die or set of dice that they know either is or isn't biased to another die or dice they know will perfmorm in a different manner.
You just don't understand how a Casino works, what regulations are put on Casinos and the ramifications of just one person exposing that a Casino is doing something like this. You are looking at it from the outside with absolutely not one shred of proof that there is a consperiecy to change dice knowing that the dice are biased. Of all the people that have ever worked at a Casino you say this happens at, is there one current or former person that can confirm this? Wouldn't there be some documentation? There would have to be to know which dice are which. Do you know how valuable a copy of that document would be? I'd venture to say I could get a few hundred thousand dollars for that document from a major newspaper, magazine or tv show. Do you think every employee of a Casino is out to "get" the customer and there is such a tight bond between these employees that none would break the code of silence?
You're living in a dream world.
ZCore13
Well said.
Quote: Zcore13Yes, a Casino will change the dice when they feel like things are going against what normal odds would be, but that is a result of superstition or game protection, with the possibility of someone cheating. The dice being changed is not a move from one die or set of dice that they know either is or isn't biased to another die or dice they know will perfmorm in a different manner.
You just don't understand how a Casino works, what regulations are put on Casinos and the ramifications of just one person exposing that a Casino is doing something like this. You are looking at it from the outside with absolutely not one shred of proof that there is a consperiecy to change dice knowing that the dice are biased. Of all the people that have ever worked at a Casino you say this happens at, is there one current or former person that can confirm this? Wouldn't there be some documentation? There would have to be to know which dice are which. Do you know how valuable a copy of that document would be? I'd venture to say I could get a few hundred thousand dollars for that document from a major newspaper, magazine or tv show. Do you think every employee of a Casino is out to "get" the customer and there is such a tight bond between these employees that none would break the code of silence?
You're living in a dream world.
ZCore13
Using the same logic, could I convince you that dealers don't intentionally make mistakes to earn extra tokes? You do believe that dealers never intentionally make mistakes to benefit players in hopes of getting some tokes. I mean that NEVER happens because they would lose their jobs right? And of course it's the same logic. If they were found out to do this, they would be fired immediately. And it's so easy to find out, so they never do it! PROOF INDEED.
Actually, you present just as ridiculous an argument.
Your belief system is naive IMO. But stick with it if it serves you.
And back at you, dream world boy!
Quote: AhighUsing the same logic, could I convince you that dealers don't intentionally make mistakes to earn extra tokes? You do believe that dealers never intentionally make mistakes to benefit players in hopes of getting some tokes. I mean that NEVER happens because they would lose their jobs right? And of course it's the same logic. If they were found out to do this, they would be fired immediately. And it's so easy to find out, so they never do it! PROOF INDEED.
Actually, you present just as ridiculous an argument.
Your belief system is naive IMO. But stick with it if it serves you.
And back at you, dream world boy!
Dealers make $6.00 an hour. They are regulated by their Supervisors. If they do break the rules in the manner you describe and get caught, they get fired, probably arrested, most likely lose their gaming license to work in the U.S. forever and other people would know about it (Supervisors, Co-workers, law enforcement, etc) The story can be corroborated. Not quite the same as a multi-million/billion dollar company that is regulated in more than one way to make sure things are fair and you are saying that something is being done to cheat the public, yet nodoby really knows about it or can corroberate that it happens.
Also, my "belief system" is based on real life, hands on experience. I have experience dealing. I have experience Pit Bossing. I have experience Shift Managing. I have experience as a Table Games Manager. I will be a panelist at the National Indian Gaming Association discussion on Card and Table Games. I speak to others within the industy on a regular basis. Reality and real life proof and experience is not a dream. It all comes down to what there is proof for and what there is none for. Throwing out small sample sizes and naming specific Casinos that are purposely cheating their customers in a game that they can't lose on is not only no very responsible, but also mis-leading and wrong.
ZCore13
I have not accused any casinos of intentionally using biased dice. I have not proven that any casinos have even unintentionally used biased dice. I have not proven anything at all.
I have published data that was collected in full view of every casino where the data was collected.
The observed results were even verified by dealers at the time observing what I was doing and given opportunity to see that I was doing it fairly, correctly and properly.
The casino should be unafraid of what I have said and published because it is real data.
I invite any casino to collect and inspect their own outcomes to see for themselves what kinds of face weights they are getting.
I really shouldn't even be doing this work because the casinos should be more concerned about the outcomes of the dice than they are.
But they aren't. And please, do correct me if I'm wrong.
Quote: Zcore13Throwing out small sample sizes and naming specific Casinos that are purposely cheating their customers in a game that they can't lose on is not only no very responsible, but also mis-leading and wrong.
What casino did I accuse of purposely cheating their customers?
What is misleading is claiming that the outcomes of the dice in play on a craps table are fair when there is no accountability for the outcomes from said dice.
There is zero evidence that the outcomes of casino dice in play in Las Vegas are fairly distributed that I am aware of and no evidence that any casino is monitoring the faces that resolve from any of their dice.
If a casino were using unfair dice, there is no accounting system to recognize it as fairness of the dice themselves beyond measurements of the dice using a micrometer. Please do correct me if I am wrong on this since you are more experienced than I am at this.
Which of these does anyone have on the purposeful cheating of craps players by switching known bad dice into or out of a game?? As far as I can tell we're at the unfounded accusation stage (which comes before violation), yet specific Casinos are being named as criminal, without any of the other steps being in order.
ZCore13
I have made no accusations that I am aware of that anything criminal has occurred.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
My name is Aaron Hightower.
What's your full name since we're getting into details?
I'm not hiding, are you?
And why would you say I'm hiding. Everyone uses a screen name. My name is Jeff (The rest of my personal information has been removed after time for Aligh to see it. I'm really not concerned, but there's always a chance of someone impersonating.) Let me know if you want to know anything else.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I didn't say (or intend to say) you named the Casinos. I believe Harley did.
ZCore13
I appreciate your leveling, and only asking. The more people out in the open on the topic the better.
All my comments are my own opinion and do not represent the opinion of anyone else.
I will agree with you that Harley could stand to back down a little bit from being so direct and/or assuming something is being done intentionally.
I personally would like to see a bit more fairness ensured for the player.
But I don't personally think that there's a conspiracy to double the edge and that an underground network of people are hiding a big secret.
Harley and I differ there.
As many people who are on the inside who want to get to the bottom of things, the better.
In the end, just monitoring the outcomes and doing extra efforts to ensure fairness should make the game more popular and more fun for everyone.
That's what annoyed the hell out of me dealing with Harley in the beginning was that some people might stop playing!
I love the game and I love playing and I just want it to be fair.
A few extra steps to ensure fairness I think are warranted even if there is never any proof at all. Just for peace of mind.
Quote: Zcore13I didn't say (or intend to say) you named the Casinos. I believe Harley did.
And why would you say I'm hiding. Everyone uses a screen name. My name is Jeff (deleted)
ZCore13
Securing your privacy online is a major issue... You are not hiding.. Please don't be tempted to throw out your info for a 'stick' measuring contest..
Thank you and good day..
TheWolf713
Quote: Zcore13... You just don't understand how a Casino works, ...
ZCore13
ZCore13 -- as a Table Games Manager, have you ever been responsible for placing a stick of dice in a balancing caliper to verify it was balanced before it was placed in service ?? --- not just going through the motions for the camera, but actually rejecting a stick of dice if it was not balanced ??
No disrespect, but if not, then I believe "You just don't understand how a (real corporate) Casino works" and what we are discussing is above your pay grade
I do invite any people involved in casino operations to do themselves the favor of having a boxman profile the face counts for the span of time a particular stick is out there and share the result with a math guy who can do a chi-squared test on them.
You may in fact be surprised.
I bought and I recommend one of these for the task:
http://www.tallycounterstore.com/Bank_Tally_Counter_p/014.htmCachedYou
Even if you share the results with nobody else, knowing what your face counts are can't hurt a casino!
I am not trying to exploit face counts, but you should know and expect is there are holes, they will be exploited quickly if they are there. Fairness is the goal, and identifying exposure before your players would be wise if this in fact turns into something for casinos to worry about.
Quote: Zcore13I'm the Table Games Manager at Bucky's Casino in Prescott, Az.
Well, how about that. I played blackjack in your casino on Tuesday afternoon this week! If you don't happen to follow the Casino Chip of the Day thread here, you missed when I posted my souvenir Bucky's $1 chip just yesterday, as part of a flurry of Arizona chips from casinos for which rdw4potus had already posted his $5 chips.
Quote: HarleyZCore13 -- as a Table Games Manager, have you ever been responsible for placing a stick of dice in a balancing caliper to verify it was balanced before it was placed in service ?? --- not just going through the motions for the camera, but actually rejecting a stick of dice if it was not balanced ??
No disrespect, but if not, then I believe "You just don't understand how a (real corporate) Casino works" and what we are discussing is above your pay grade
Harley,
Your posts have almost become not worth replying to. Aligh seems to be intelligent, open minded and thoughtful in his opinions. Yours are generally off base, slanderous and/or very poorly conceived.
Your accusations go as far down as the box man on the craps table. For that to be the case, it would be the dealers, box man, pit boss, shift manager, table games manager, gaming director and and internal regulatory that would all have to be involved to pull of a bad dice switcheroo to steal from the the customers. You can't tell me that only someone above my pay grade would know about it and still think the box man is switching dice at the perfect time to take the customers for a ride. So your accusations are at every pay grade... some below me and some above my current one.
ZCore13
Quote: DocWell, how about that. I played blackjack in your casino on Tuesday afternoon this week! If you don't happen to follow the Casino Chip of the Day thread here, you missed when I posted my souvenir Bucky's $1 chip just yesterday, as part of a flurry of Arizona chips from casinos for which rdw4potus had already posted his $5 chips.
Hi Doc,
Well I wish I would have known. I don't follow the chip thread. I would have bought you a drink and made sure you got the best limited edition chip we have in the place if I knew you were there. :) I've met a few people from the forum and always welcome others to track me down if in town.
I hope you enjoyed your time here. I like to hear about the experiences other have and fix them if there were any problems.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Harley,
Your accusations go as far down as the box man on the craps table. For that to be the case, it would be the dealers, box man, pit boss, shift manager, .... So your accusations are ... some below me ...
ZCore13
Dare you to cite one example of me ever accusing such .... quote and reference please
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13It would have to be that way for your theory to work. You say that the boxman switches the dice to more favorable or differently weighted dice to cheat the players. How would he do this if he was not in the loop?
ZCore13
This is a good question (for someone "that does not understand how casinos work" ) .... Depends on the casino, but usually Table Games Supervisor or Security controls which dice are carried to the craps pit ... the Boxman is just a simple conduit doing as he is told by those above him .... Boxman usually receives a call from "above" as to which dice are to be played on which table (for example Sam's Town, Golden Nugget, etc.) or they follow a very strict game plan book (ie, Bellagio, Rampart, etc.)
Quote: HarleyBoxman usually receives a call from "above" as to which dice are to be played on which table
Quote: Harleymore like
No, more like your claim is laughable horseshit.
Quote: HarleyThis is a good question (for someone "that does not understand how casinos work" ) .... Depends on the casino, but usually Table Games Supervisor or Security controls which dice are carried to the craps pit ... the Boxman is just a simple conduit doing as he is told by those above him .... Boxman usually receives a call from "above" as to which dice are to be played on which table (for example Sam's Town, Golden Nugget, etc.) or they follow a very strict game plan book (ie, Bellagio, Rampart, etc.)
Once again you are incorrect in how the process works and you are making yourself look silly. In all seriousness, I think you should take a step back and regroup. You are all over the place.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Once again you are incorrect in how the process works and you are making yourself look silly.
ZCore13
Sir, need I remind you this is the Masked Player
who is a personal hero to Ahigh, who claims
Harley knows more about craps than any of
the 'lesser fools' on this forum.
Please rethink your position, Zcore..
Quote: onenickelmiracleI thought the claim was the dice were only moderately biased and not known which way for each die.
Sorry for the confusion, there are varying degrees of Dice in play --- we have found:
- Very Fair Dice (Colorado has the most fair dice the most often)
- almost fair dice (close enough to play your regular game as advertised by the Wizard)
- Stick is moderately biased - gives a more flat distribution than a true pyramid distribution
- Dice are extremely biased - House edge is tremendously increased (example Blue dice at Sunset Station, Henderson, NV)
- Stick of dice with mixed results - some fair, some not fair and/or some die in a stick biased to different numbers
Player beware ... observe before you play blindly
But a brand new stick of dice never used never cancelled .. generally each cube comes up different from the other cubes from the same stick in my balance.
IE: the request for "same dice" may be one superstition that has more merit than other superstitions when you are on a good roll.
I also want to add it is very labor intensive to inspect the balance of each cube. But there is no question that each die is different in my balance. The only question is whether the tolerance of balance is good enough not to matter or not.
Quote: HarleySorry for the confusion, there are varying degrees of Dice in play --- we have found:
- Very Fair Dice (Colorado has the most fair dice the most often)
- almost fair dice (close enough to play your regular game as advertised by the Wizard)
- Stick is moderately biased - gives a more flat distribution than a true pyramid distribution
- Dice are extremely biased - House edge is tremendously increased (example Blue dice at Sunset Station, Henderson, NV)
- Stick of dice with mixed results - some fair, some not fair and/or some die in a stick biased to different numbers
Player beware ... observe before you play blindly
So please explain how the house edge is increased? Are you implying that the 7 is rolled more often? Well if that's the case why don't you just play the don't pass and clean up?
Quote: BeardgoatSo please explain how the house edge is increased? Are you implying that the 7 is rolled more often? Well if that's the case why don't you just play the don't pass and clean up?
Faces opposite the six are weighted, so 6-6 is a more likely combo which is not beneficial to both sides of the pass line, but it's not weighted enough for 6-6 to be a profitable bet since it has a ridiculous edge of 16.67%.
Quote: HarleyBoxman usually receives a call from "above" as to which dice are to be played on which table
Quote: bbvk05
So this.
If you truly believe this, then WHY are you playing ANY casino games PERIOD?!?!?!?!
I expect silence, or a complete lie as a response. Ball is in your court, Harley.
Quote: BeardgoatSo please explain how the house edge is increased? Are you implying that the 7 is rolled more often? Well if that's the case why don't you just play the don't pass and clean up?
Here's an image to explain the exposure. This is modeled from random outcomes from theoretically biased 9,8,8,8,8,9 dice. You can find more detail in other threads.
But this shows the exposure on betting the don't or the don't come every roll and laying max odds compared to the extra edge on the do side in graphical form.
In general, there is $0.20 per roll advantage to the player with 345x lay odds if you can handle volatility. Notice on this chart, it's not until 20,000 rolls that you get enough events for the $0.20 per roll advantage to be seen. IE: the $0.20 exposure is only apparent after a mere 200 hours of play due to the excessive volatility on 345x odds (most individuals would give up, but the house is in it for the long haul).
10x odds has more volatility but there's a whole $0.60 per roll advantage if you're willing to lay max odds on a $5 bet (IE: laying $100 on every four and ten rolled!). $0.60 per roll, yeah, just clean up there. Show us how you're ready to put up a $20,000 bankroll to get $0.60 per roll advantage once you nail a pair of these unfair dice with 4 hours of counting faces.
None of this long term effect means anything to anyone except those who are truly in it for the long term. IE: it affects the edge over very long periods of time on free bets to favor the house on passline bets in theory at the expense of a possible slight exposure on the don't pass for anyone who can withstand ups and downs of tens of thousands of dollars.
If these theoretical dice exist, though, it's the field that's exposed without being hidden behind wild volatility. There are other threads on the topic. Of course you have ignored me anyway because my posts are, as you described them, "are becoming so unbelievably stupid I can't take it anymore..."
I would like you to know that your calling my posts "stupid" is offensive to me. It's pretty darn close to calling me stupid.
AHigh - 1
Beardgoat - 0
tringlomane - negative 1
bbvk05 - negative 1
irishsetter - negative 5
DeadCat - negative 16
mad professor - negative 42
.... you get negative points for not understanding the math of the game you supposedly play
Why are 1 and 6 more likely to show, when the 6-side is supposed to be heavier?
Quote: AlanMendelsonWhy are 1 and 6 more likely to show, when the 6-side is supposed to be heavier?
It's been explained before in this forum (and at least twice before by me).
Of course, the heaviest face would have a greater tendency than the other sides to land facing downwards.
On the other hand, the heaviest side could also have a propensity to land face-up, because the rolling of the die might slow down as the heaviest face climbs to top of its arc. One encounters the same phenomenon when rolling or spinning an unbalanced wheel -- the heaviest section of the wheel travels slowest when it is at the top of its arc.
Furthermore, if a die is "shaved" on the 1 and/or 6 faces, those sides would have a propensity to land face-up relative to the other, narrower sides (even if the die is perfectly balanced).
By the way, the 6 side is not necessarily heavier (which has also been pointed-out several times on this forum). The six face should be lightest side if the pip density is less than the density of the dice body material.
Quote: IbeatyouracesThey are supposed to be exactly the same material.
Yet another subtopic that has already been discussed.
Quote: vendman1Are you implying that modern casinos owned by billion dollar corporations cheat in today's regulatory environment? I highly doubt it. Big difference between mobbed up Vegas of the old days and the modern era.
Here are a few dozen referenced FAILURES by our regulatory environment:
http://procraps4u2.myfanforum.org/forum31.php&sid=4bd701fb2f31b1a50675af1d01e0e8ac
Quote: HarleyThank you AHigh for explaining the simple math to these guys
AHigh - 1
Beardgoat - 0
tringlomane - negative 1
bbvk05 - negative 1
irishsetter - negative 5
DeadCat - negative 16
mad professor - negative 42
.... you get negative points for not understanding the math of the game you supposedly play
Sorry, you get -1000 for spewing BS. AHigh's post had nothing to do with your claim that surveillance instructs box men which dice to put out, which is what I commented on.
