Casinos would never cheat ....
Quote:Electromagnetic Dice System known as a “Wall Joint” - Includes two 90 lb magnets (built into the walls to create the magnetic field), remote control system for controlling the dice, transformer, horseshoe shaped “keeper” (aligns the polarity of the magnetic dice), and two magnetic dice.
http://www.icollector.com/Electromagnetic-Dice-System-known-as-a-Wall-Joint-I_i8610121
-- who started 6:5 BlackJack ... and tighter slot machines ?? .... not the Mafia ... it was Corporate GREED
BTW, the design of those antique Chinese dice were more apt to be balanced than current cheap Mexico dice ... notice the large 1 pip to compensate for the 6 pips
.... and can you give me 1 single regulation or law regarding dice specifications in Nevada ?
So if you want to tell me that an online gaming company or some offshore boat casino is screwing it's customers, I'll listen. You'd probably be right. But if you are trying to convince me that a modern big time casino, owned by MGM or CET is cheating at dice or roulette with magnets...I call BS. So produce some evidence in the last 30 years or so...I doubt you can.
I can't quote NGC dice regulations. But I run a business and wouldn't screw up millions if not billions in profit....to cheat at a game in which I already have a built in house edge.
As far as cheating goes, only the Ron Harrises and the Larry Volks out there know. I would imagine they have perfected things to keep them bought off for life now, so they would never come forward.
vendman1 - it's not called cheating in Nevada because there are no laws against it ... it's called increasing house edge or profit margin
vendman1 - are you saying as a business man you would only make the allowed built-in profit margin and refuse to increase your profit margin by say 800% if you could ??
The Corporate greedy casinos within the past decade did just that when they created 6:5 BlackJack (see http://www.blackjack-scams.com/html/6_5_blackjack.html )
In his book, Steven L Forte ( $750.00 at The Gambler's Book Shop on Eastern Ave. in Las Vegas) called “Casino Game Protection: A Comprehensive Guide”, explains on page 247:
Quote:The bottom line: in jurisdictions without regulations that set forth an acceptable range of tolerances or standards, it can be difficult to state when a die is legally acceptable, or when it should be deemed a cheating device.
As explained on our website (Link listed in my signature), there are no technical dice specification laws in Nevada
This vagueness in the Nevada dice laws allows the casinos to have an unfair game and increase the House edge as much as they desire --- just like they did when they started using 6:5 BlackJack to increase the House edge by over 800 percent
And don't conflate the two meanings of "fair". Gambling games are mathematically unfair in that they're tilted toward the house, but they are nevertheless fair (i.e. just) in that the rules apply equally to all parties. Use of a cheating device violates the second meaning of "fairness" and is illegal.
So you may not like a 6:5 game, but it's not unfair in the way that a game would be if it paid 3:2 on naturals but secretly had all the aces removed.
likewise with dice, Nevada does not have to use fair dice
.... you say potato, I say potatoes
Also, your accusation that there are little or no regulations, including on the dice, is just as ridiculous.
Zcore13
Quote: Zcore13Harley, your argument that a casino lowering their payout on blackjack to 6-5 is equivalent to stealing is ridiculous.3
Do you think your average player knows what he's
getting with 6/5?
Quote: EvenBobDo you think your average player knows what he's
getting with 6/5?
I am an average player and i know 6/5 has to be a better game. I mean the casino offers it and both numbers are bigger than 3/2 !
Knowingly using cheaper dice fully aware that they are unbalanced skewing the house's advantage even greater is darn close to cheating.
Holding dice school and sending newbies out to the tables not telling them about taking their bets down or off, is misleading at best.
Base dealers who reprimand a good shooter for one die not hitting what they claim is a legitamite throw against the diamonds, only to quite glady call a seven out when the little old lady doesn't throw them past the prop. area. The rules arn't evenly applied from what I see. That to me is cheating
Quote: HarleyNevada does not have to use fair dice
Good grief, are you drunk?
Of course they do, duh-oh!
See NRS 465.075 and .080, e.g.
Carry on.
Quote: EvenBobDo you think your average player knows what he's
getting with 6/5?
There is a saying for that average player. "You can't fix stupid"
Quote: wrongwayOk, correct me if I'm wrong here. This always irritates me when folks think the dice are not fair. If this device worked... it could only be used to bring up one set of numbers unless they had a set of dice for each combination. So here's my "beef" if you feel you are being cheated by big corp. Play the Don't Pass. You will take those bastards for a fortune...
The don't pass doesn't really give a player edge. Ironically, it's the field that pays triple on the 12.
I have postings about the effects of these heavy 6-1 characteristics of theoretically biased dice.
I have been working with Harley to look at these details. But unless you have looked into this further, the short answer is that the math takes from the passline without giving as much to the don't pass line due to the more 12's.
The exposure is on the lay bets and the field bets, not on the don't pass with free odds combination.
It's weird, but don't assume that Harley isn't profiting from what he has learned.
The other thing that you have to realize is that for an individual player none of this makes a huge difference. The general trend is that people lose more quickly than they should betting the wizard of vegas style on the passline.
IE: the theoretical CHUMPS resulting from Harley's theory are the "smart" right-betters from this very forum. But swapping to the don't doesn't ensure a win.
Quote: AhighThe general trend is that people lose more quickly than they should betting the wizard of vegas style on the passline.
.
So what should the Wiz do to correct this?
Quote: EvenBobSo what should the Wiz do to correct this?
Nothing, it's neither his problem nor his fault.
Quote: HarleyAMEN onenickelmiracle !!
vendman1 - it's not called cheating in Nevada because there are no laws against it ... it's called increasing house edge or profit margin
vendman1 - are you saying as a business man you would only make the allowed built-in profit margin and refuse to increase your profit margin by say 800% if you could ??
The Corporate greedy casinos within the past decade did just that when they created 6:5 BlackJack (see http://www.blackjack-scams.com/html/6_5_blackjack.html )
In his book, Steven L Forte ( $750.00 at The Gambler's Book Shop on Eastern Ave. in Las Vegas) called “Casino Game Protection: A Comprehensive Guide”, explains on page 247:
As explained on our website (Link listed in my signature), there are no technical dice specification laws in Nevada
This vagueness in the Nevada dice laws allows the casinos to have an unfair game and increase the House edge as much as they desire --- just like they did when they started using 6:5 BlackJack to increase the House edge by over 800 percent
Harley, yes I'm saying as a businessman I would not risk my license and ability to do business to cheat customers. Not for 800% or any % it's wrong, and it's also stupid. You still haven't proved a casino is cheating. Just because you allege that the dice are not "balanced", which I don't believe. Doesn't mean anyone is cheating.
Please stop implying that 6:5 blackjack is cheating...it's not. The rules are clearly posted for all to see. Most casinos also have 3:2 BJ available. It's up to the customer to make a smart decision. Just like penny slots payback at a worse rate than $ slots. But people still play them. Doesn't make it cheating.
That said are we now trying to prove the casinos are cheating with crooked dice and other devices? If so, when are we going to start the debate on the reality of the Moon Landing and how George Bush actually blew up the WTC?
See what Teliot did with an online casino. That's how you argue about cheating.
Quote: NareedI so dislike arguments by innuendo. if there is any proof that one or more casinos are cheating, it would be a great service to present it. If all you ahve is a feeling they may be cheating, then don't play there.
See what Teliot did with an online casino. That's how you argue about cheating.
Exactly my point couldn't agree more...Harley, and anyone else accusing the casino's of cheating, need more actual evidence and less vague accusations.
If this were to turn out to be the case, and if the casino is not altering the dice themselves, just allowing normal play to alter the dice, I'm not sure that it's illegal to take a pair of dice off the table after profiling the face counts up in surveillance only to bring them out when the larger bets come out that those dice would favor the casino.
Let's not use the word "cheating."
One of my favorite comments that I like to make when playing craps that usually elicits laughs from everyone is "this game is rigged!!!"
Everyone knows that the game is rigged. It's rigged by design.
The question isn't whether the casinos are cheating or not. The edge alone could be labelled cheating by some people!
The question is whether or not choosing dice judiciously by the casino staff to favor the hold is something that is occurring.
And just to get started, the answer is yes! They already readily admit to changing the dice ANY TIME THE TABLE STARTS TO DUMP MONEY, the dice will get changed.
So then the next question is that if they see very oversized bets relative to normal action on the table, will they put in some dice to do battle with that particular betting style.
My guess is, "IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY PLAUSIBLE." In addition, I have evidence to support that this is IN FACT OCCURRING from this one day at Fiesta Rancho.
Not proof, no. But evidence, yes.
Quote: AhighA plausible scenario for what could be happening is simply that casinos keep dice that win more money for certain betting patterns categorized and they come at for specific opportunities to hold more money depending on what is happening at the table.
If this were to turn out to be the case, and if the casino is not altering the dice themselves, just allowing normal play to alter the dice, I'm not sure that it's illegal to take a pair of dice off the table after profiling the face counts up in surveillance only to bring them out when the larger bets come out that those dice would favor the casino.
Let's not use the word "cheating."
One of my favorite comments that I like to make when playing craps that usually elicits laughs from everyone is "this game is rigged!!!"
Everyone knows that the game is rigged. It's rigged by design.
The question isn't whether the casinos are cheating or not. The edge alone could be labelled cheating by some people!
The question is whether or not choosing dice judiciously by the casino staff to favor the hold is something that is occurring.
And just to get started, the answer is yes! They already readily admit to changing the dice ANY TIME THE TABLE STARTS TO DUMP MONEY, the dice will get changed.
So then the next question is that if they see very oversized bets relative to normal action on the table, will they put in some dice to do battle with that particular betting style.
My guess is, "IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY PLAUSIBLE." In addition, I have evidence to support that this is IN FACT OCCURRING from this one day at Fiesta Rancho.
Not proof, no. But evidence, yes.
So you are saying that the casinos have dice that are designed differently? I would hope you take your "evidence" to the State Gaming Control Board immediatly. This may be the biggest news since the Stardust bust. I may have to short Stations casino stock today, although the SEC could be on me for insider trading. I cant believe that someone in the company has not thought of the money they could have made by coming forward with this info before.
Quote: HeadlockInstead of asking for proof that casinos cheat, why not provide proof that they don't?
Because that would be too easy and you wouldn't believe it anyway.
I work in a Casino. I make no more money if a player loses than wins. We don't need to cheat because we can't lose. You could come in to where I work tomorrow and win $20,000 and one I wouldn't give one crap about it. And two, it would have no effect on the year end numbers.
The casino employees, dealers, Pit Bosses, Shift Managers, etc are paid to provide the games to you and to make sure they are being played by the posted rules. That's it. You can hold the dice however you want. You can say a prayer or cast a spell on them if you want before rolling. As long as you follow the rules of the game you can win or lose and nobody cares. That's the part you are missing. The Staff is watching for cheating. They might change the dice to make sure you have not unbalanced them somehow or snuck a replacement one/two in. But the dice they give you are not rigged, they are normal dice that they know haven't been manipulated.
Your accusations are laughable. I'm sure you'll play it off as I'm one of them, but that is the furthest from the truth. I am a player, who owned my own business for 15 years and was lucky enought to be able to do whatever I wanted to after selling. I chose gaming because I enjoy it. I also enjoy when players win. If nobody wins, nobody would play. Everyone knows the casino is going to win in the long run. People play for entertainment... and sometimes they win.
ZCore13
Quote: BozSo you are saying that the casinos have dice that are designed differently?
No. Where did you come up with that? If you read my post you will be able to see exactly what I am saying is plausible in my opinion:
Quote: Ahighthe casino is not altering the dice themselves, just allowing normal play to alter the dice, I'm not sure that it's illegal to take a pair of dice off the table after profiling the face counts up in surveillance only to bring them out when the larger bets come out that those dice would favor the casino.
Did you read that? Did you read the entire post? Or did you just come up with an idea in your head of what you thought I might be thinking and assume that to be possible and randomly ask if some random idea in your head was what I was saying?
Quote:would hope you take your "evidence" to the State Gaming Control Board immediatly. This may be the biggest news since the Stardust bust. I may have to short Stations casino stock today, although the SEC could be on me for insider trading. I cant believe that someone in the company has not thought of the money they could have made by coming forward with this info before.
The evidence is right here in a public forum. If the gaming board is interested, they can contact me and I will tell them anything they want to know. I have nothing to gain or to lose from the outcome of whether or not this is the 60% case that this actually happening or if it's the 40% case that it's a red herring. Your comments, I think, are intending to paint yourself as being the smarter individual on the subject, but I remain unconvinced you know more about this than me. But if you wish to persist in educating me, at least start reading my posts before you invent positions that I am not taking and ask me if that is the position that I am taking.
Quote: Zcore13Your accusations are laughable.
I think you're talking of someone else, but to be clear, I'm not accusing anyone of anything. Just pursuing some interesting possibilities, however remote they may be.
Quote: Ahigh
The question is whether or not choosing dice judiciously by the casino staff to favor the hold is something that is occurring.
And just to get started, the answer is yes! They already readily admit to changing the dice ANY TIME THE TABLE STARTS TO DUMP MONEY, the dice will get changed.
So then the next question is that if they see very oversized bets relative to normal action on the table, will they put in some dice to do battle with that particular betting style.
My guess is, "IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY PLAUSIBLE." In addition, I have evidence to support that this is IN FACT OCCURRING from this one day at Fiesta Rancho.
Not proof, no. But evidence, yes.
I've always wondered this...but I seen it happen a few months back...
EVERY one of JANugget's heavy-hitters were at the crap table...and amazingly, one of them got on a real heater! I mean, EVERY SUIT was there! At the end of the roll, the next guy said "I WANT THOSE SAME DICE!" and the CSM grabbed the dice, smashed them on the table (HAD to of hurt his hand!) and sneered, absolutely STEAMING MAD "NO!" and threw in five new dice....
If the math is trustworthy...what was the point of all that?
Quote: Zcore13I work in a Casino. I make no more money if a player loses than wins. We don't need to cheat because we can't lose. You could come in to where I work tomorrow and win $20,000 and one I wouldn't give one crap about it. And two, it would have no effect on the year end numbers.
The casino employees, dealers, Pit Bosses, Shift Managers, etc are paid to provide the games to you and to make sure they are being played by the posted rules. That's it. You can hold the dice however you want. You can say a prayer or cast a spell on them if you want before rolling. As long as you follow the rules of the game you can win or lose and nobody cares. That's the part you are missing. The Staff is watching for cheating. They might change the dice to make sure you have not unbalanced them somehow or snuck a replacement one/two in. But the dice they give you are not rigged, they are normal dice that they know haven't been manipulated.
Sounds like you work in a nice establisment...not a sweat joint...
Quote: TIMSPEEDQuote: Ahigh
The question is whether or not choosing dice judiciously by the casino staff to favor the hold is something that is occurring.
And just to get started, the answer is yes! They already readily admit to changing the dice ANY TIME THE TABLE STARTS TO DUMP MONEY, the dice will get changed.
So then the next question is that if they see very oversized bets relative to normal action on the table, will they put in some dice to do battle with that particular betting style.
My guess is, "IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY PLAUSIBLE." In addition, I have evidence to support that this is IN FACT OCCURRING from this one day at Fiesta Rancho.
Not proof, no. But evidence, yes.
I've always wondered this...but I seen it happen a few months back...
EVERY one of JANugget's heavy-hitters were at the crap table...and amazingly, one of them got on a real heater! I mean, EVERY SUIT was there! At the end of the roll, the next guy said "I WANT THOSE SAME DICE!" and the CSM grabbed the dice, smashed them on the table (HAD to of hurt his hand!) and sneered, absolutely STEAMING MAD "NO!" and threw in five new dice....
If the math is trustworthy...what was the point of all that?
Ever think that they think the customer might have tampered with the dice?
Quote: BozQuote: TIMSPEEDQuote: Ahigh
The question is whether or not choosing dice judiciously by the casino staff to favor the hold is something that is occurring.
And just to get started, the answer is yes! They already readily admit to changing the dice ANY TIME THE TABLE STARTS TO DUMP MONEY, the dice will get changed.
So then the next question is that if they see very oversized bets relative to normal action on the table, will they put in some dice to do battle with that particular betting style.
My guess is, "IT IS ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY PLAUSIBLE." In addition, I have evidence to support that this is IN FACT OCCURRING from this one day at Fiesta Rancho.
Not proof, no. But evidence, yes.
I've always wondered this...but I seen it happen a few months back...
EVERY one of JANugget's heavy-hitters were at the crap table...and amazingly, one of them got on a real heater! I mean, EVERY SUIT was there! At the end of the roll, the next guy said "I WANT THOSE SAME DICE!" and the CSM grabbed the dice, smashed them on the table (HAD to of hurt his hand!) and sneered, absolutely STEAMING MAD "NO!" and threw in five new dice....
If the math is trustworthy...what was the point of all that?
Ever think that they think the customer might have tampered with the dice?
Almost never happens, and the boxman can simply check for balanced dice.
Some casino managers/TGD's are balanced and civil themselves, and others are superstitious, obnoxious fools.
They already have a decent HE and can make decent profits from it.
Increasing the HE of a game does not increase proportionatally the Overall profit of the casino.
If you double the HE of a game it does not mean the casino will make double the profit. On average most people will just lose their money quicker and will not neccesarily lose more. ie the HE increases but the Number of bets decreases. Overall there is an increase in the profit but not at the same proportion as the increase in HE. Also people will eventually move away from a game that the lose their money too quickly to another game or another casino.
Casinos set the HE of games at a rate that is high enough for them to make money but low enough not to discourage the average player from playing it because their money too quickly.
Casinos set higher HE for game with higher variance (ie high payoffs) because they take on a higher risk but also the average player is willing to lose their money quicker if there is a chance to hit the high payoffs.
The second reason why the big US corporation casinos do not cheat is cost - benefit analysis.
The cost if they get cought is high compared to the potential benefit. Getting big penalties, losing their reputation or the ultimate cost of losing their licence.
The employees of the casino are usually needed to conduct the cheating and usually at the lowest level, ie the dealer or maybe at a higher level.
There is always the risk of a disgrunted employee to blow the whistle.
Casinos main effort is primatily to prevent dealers cheating for the benefit of the player (in collussion with the dealer) and not to train them to cheat for the benefit of the casino.
I am saying the above although I have been personally been cheated for sure 1 time and suspected cheating on another 3-4 times.
But this cheating occured in very small casinos in countries with very little casino regulation and with casinos thatwere almost compteley empty relying on cheating on the average tourist who would in any case very unlikely to come back.
Quote: Paigowdan
Almost never happens, and the boxman can simply check for balanced dice.
Some casino managers/TGD's are balanced and civil themselves, and others are superstitious, obnoxious fools.
Yeah...and I even told my host about the incident...but I know the Ascuaga's absolutely won't fire certain people...only because a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
I don't see that these guys are breaking the laws if we are still talking about dice here in Nevada.
They cheat every time they only pay $310 for a $10 boxcar! But that's just how the game is played! They keep $50 and they give you $310. Then they assume you want to bet it again, and give you $300.
But it's just not called cheating. It's okay! The rules are known and approved and legal.
Similarly with using dice. They use dice for a long time. And if they know that the dice would be a good match with a shooter's bets, there are no laws saying you cannot put a stick of dice on a table just because you think it will cause a particular betting style to lose.
A good casino person who is concerned about larger than normal bets on the table is going to do anything they can from preventing that player from taking the casino for a large sum of money relative to their normal action.
Quote: vendman1Exactly my point couldn't agree more...Harley, and anyone else accusing the casino's of cheating, need more actual evidence and less vague accusations.
Alas, we seem to be in the minority.
But it is such a sane place to be! :)
Quote: AhighSimilarly with using dice. They use dice for a long time. And if they know that the dice would be a good match with a shooter's bets, there are no laws saying you cannot put a stick of dice on a table just because you think it will cause a particular betting style to lose.
If the dice would be a good match with any shooter's bets, they are indeed forbidden by law in Nevada, and most jurisdictions, from using them. It's all in your head, Ace.
Hattip to Mr. V:
Quote: MrVGood grief, are you drunk?
Of course they do, duh-oh!
See NRS 465.075 and .080, e.g.
Quote: AhighIf cheating is legal, they will cheat.
Cheating is never legal, so if something is legal it's not cheating.
"NRS 465.083 Cheating. It is unlawful for any person, whether the person is an owner or employee of or a player in an establishment, to cheat at any gambling game."
Quote: AhighIf cheating is legal, they will cheat. This is proven time and time again all over the place.
I don't see that these guys are breaking the laws if we are still talking about dice here in Nevada.
They cheat every time they only pay $310 for a $10 boxcar! But that's just how the game is played! They keep $50 and they give you $310. Then they assume you want to bet it again, and give you $300.
But it's just not called cheating. It's okay! The rules are known and approved and legal.
Similarly with using dice. They use dice for a long time. And if they know that the dice would be a good match with a shooter's bets, there are no laws saying you cannot put a stick of dice on a table just because you think it will cause a particular betting style to lose.
A good casino person who is concerned about larger than normal bets on the table is going to do anything they can from preventing that player from taking the casino for a large sum of money relative to their normal action.
Ahigh,
The thing you just can't seem to grasp is that the casino doesn't care about larger than normal bets. The house edge fixes all ailments. If the player is not cheating, nobody cares how many times he rolls a number or how much he is betting. The house edge trumps everything.
If they suspect you are cheating, they might switch dice on you. There is nobody tracking dice rolls and putting in dice more likely to hit 5 or 9 when you are playing 6 and 8. It just doesn't happen.
I'm sure you're a nice guy and you seem fairly intelligent, but you are so off base on this topic it's begun to be comical.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13Ahigh,
The thing you just can't seem to grasp is that the casino doesn't care about larger than normal bets. The house edge fixes all ailments. If the player is not cheating, nobody cares how many times he rolls a number or how much he is betting. The house edge trumps everything.
If they suspect you are cheating, they might switch dice on you. There is nobody tracking dice rolls and putting in dice more likely to hit 5 or 9 when you are playing 6 and 8. It just doesn't happen.
I'm sure you're a nice guy and you seem fairly intelligent, but you are so off base on this topic it's begun to be comical.
ZCore13
Finally... Someone with common sense..
Quote: Zcore13Ahigh,
The thing you just can't seem to grasp is that the casino doesn't care about larger than normal bets. The house edge fixes all ailments. If the player is not cheating, nobody cares how many times he rolls a number or how much he is betting. The house edge trumps everything.
On another gambling forum years ago, we had a floor
manager from the UK as a poster. He would constantly
tell us the casino could care less about most bets that
were made, and they spent far less time thinking about
players than the public perceives. He assumed the house
edge took care of the profits, which indeed it does.
