BAD DICE: the saga CONTINUES

Quote: EvenBob

Sneak a decibel meter into the casinos and get the readings from every craps table in town. . . . They'll not think its funny.

Is that really necessary for what is essentially a rather large section of the thinnest piece of felt available tacked on to a large piece or two of plywood, a basic fact that anyone who possesses a craps table should be able to figure out in less than five minutes?

deleted

When Caesars changed its felts a couple of months back, the carpenters put the new felt on top of the old one which accounts for the extra bounce now at Caesars. I suspect that some of the tables with "extra bounce" now have more than two felts on top of the table surface.

When I was there a couple of months ago and the new felts were going on, I asked the carpenters if I could "buy" the old felts. (It worked in the past and a $20 tip got them.) But this time the chief said "no, the way I do them the new one goes on top of the old." And that's exactly what they did.

Several other casinos in town put a layer of newspaper under their felts. I've heard stories about a rubber sheet under the felts, but I haven't seen one myself.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: Ahigh

All craps tables are alike

Stop right there. If that's what you believe I can't discuss anything with you about dice influencing and dice control.

Very well. You have been blocked. Truth is important, and word selection is not an irrelevant part of conversation.

http://bit.ly/16LyCZP

Generally speaking, you make too many false claims for me to continue spending my time attempting to reason with you.

That is a true statement. We're done.

Let's see what "false claims" I made here:

1. All craps tables are different with different bounces. Some are made with different layers of padding and different padding material.

2. The basic principle of dice control and dice influence is that the dice remain on axis.

I will gladly allow others to comment about my alleged false claims.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Let's see what "false claims" I made here:

1. All craps tables are different with different bounces. Some are made with different layers of padding and different padding material.

2. The basic principle of dice control and dice influence is that the dice remain on axis.

I will gladly allow others to comment about my alleged false claims.

BLOCK OFF

This is very laborious. The above statement #1 is an entirely different statement, and I believe that it is a true statement. The issue that I took is the obviously false statement that no two tables are alike. Your statements are often false AND misleading. The above statement #1 would lead the reader to believe you previously made a true statement, when in fact your statement that no craps tables were alike was in fact false due to your inappropriate use of the word "alike."

As I very EXPLICITLY stated, I can guess what you were thinking, but what you said was WRONG. The truth is, and let me spell it out again because I do not think you read it before, but here is the TRUE STATEMENT.

EVERY SINGLE CRAPS TABLE IN LAS VEGAS IS ALIKE.

The fact that you cannot and seemingly will not accept the fact that the argument here is over your word selection "alike" when you were probably replacing your own definition of "alike" in your head with something akin to "molecularly identical" or something less extreme is of irrelevance.

I picked this one little issue out, but this is a habit of yours: making false statements with NO BASIS AT ALL and often without even a concern for exactly the details of what you are saying. Whether it is a word selection or simply some ignorance on your own part, you think you live in a world of truth and others live in a world of lack of knowledge, when in fact often you are the one who is out of the loop on actually being knowledgeable.

The statement #2 is false on several grounds: First and foremost, and as outlined by the Wizard (you would know this if you had studied the appendix that I linked to you previously) there is more than one camp of theories for how advantage play craps may be accomplished. Your statement #2 completely neglects the fact that correlation shooting theory even exists! Therefore the statement is obviously false because you lack the knowledge of correlation dice theory. Completely! In your mind, you only know about axis theory, and therefore you are right. But outside of your world, you only know about a small fraction of the theories that people have.

In addition to this, all of this is theory. And without any proof at all for any of it, there is no singular "basic principle" as you so simply imply. I wish it were that simple, Mr Simpleton! There are only "suggested models" all of which lack hard evidence and proof. All of the evidence that I have gathered supports correlation theory for which you apparently have absolutely zero knowledge at all about. So I can see why you are lost!

BLOCK ON

It really depends what the meaning of the word "alike" is, which is really open to interpretation isn't it?

But I think the definition that you are saying is more a colloquialism than anything, like "all women are alike".

Math is not theory, however. Statistics have been proven. They are used in the real world, every day, including within all casino games. That's the basic principle to be applied. Everything else is unproven, and I would expect the same rigor to be applied to another theorem as it has to the hundreds of years of statistics that have been infallible... until now?

Quote:

Alan
2. The basic principle of dice control and dice influence is that the dice remain on axis.

This is not true and doesn't hold water, there are different shots that are not on axis, that are taught by the different dice camps. One of the better ones is the littlejoecraps.com shots that they teach. Notice that I said shots, there are more then one of them!

There have been many shots that have been used my DI's over the years, that are not taught by the main schools that have been teaching dice control or what ever you want to call it. That doesn't mean that they don't work, all it means is that they had a fantastic marking group that was selling players on what they said worked. They did a very good job of marketing, they even got to to believe what they were selling Alan!

If Ahigh's shot that he uses was making nothing but hard eights, we would all be saying that he was a DI, only because of his out comes! We wouldn't care about if the dice were on axis or not, quite frankly I don't care who makes me money when I'm playing craps or what kind of shot they are using. If they are making points why would you?

The one thing that a DI tries to do is get the out comes he wants, and he bets accordingly. It doesn't matter if he's dice say on axis or not. All that matters is he is winning his bets! Now the schools that sell you an on axis shot will jump up and down telling you and anybody else that will listen that an off axis shot will not work and that is true for them, because they do not teach it!

They have everybody believing that their shot is the only one that will work and that is far, far from the truth! !

By the way I still say that nobody's dice stay on axis when they are shooting, just look at Ahigh's slow-mo Videos

Well, superrick you and I share a lot of the same beliefs.

Quote: superrick

Quote:

Alan
2. The basic principle of dice control and dice influence is that the dice remain on axis.

This is not true and doesn't hold water, there are different shots that are not on axis, that are taught by the different dice camps. One of the better ones is the littlejoecraps.com shots that they teach. Notice that I said shots, there are more then one of them!

Indeed there are a lot of variations to shots, and all of the variations came about because shooters could not manage to keep their dice on axis... and so they said "well rotate your set one face to the left, or rotate one face up to accomodate...." What I said is true: the BASIC principle of dice influencing is to keep the dice on axis. If you want to disagree then you disagree.

Quote: superrick

There have been many shots that have been used my DI's over the years, that are not taught by the main schools that have been teaching dice control or what ever you want to call it. That doesn't mean that they don't work, all it means is that they had a fantastic marking group that was selling players on what they said worked. They did a very good job of marketing, they even got to to believe what they were selling Alan!

I would agree that over the years many false prophets of dice influencing have created various so-called "shots" to describe their good luck at the tables. I don't believe they are true dice influencers. I've been around these guys for 15+ years and I've never seen or heard about any performance at the table which shows any reliability. And that is the defining factor -- A LACK OF RELIABILITY by any so-called dice influencer.

SRRs are meaningless unless determined under real game situations, because unless the 7-out comes after a long string of "numbers" that you are betting on, a low SRR could likely mean you are losing money. I've been hearing for 15+ years how if you can just lower the number of 7s by one... blah blah blah... it will mean you have turned the game positive for the player. Yet, I have seen random shooters have more success that any of the so-called DIs. I have been to the conventions, I have met up and played with them at various casinos, and in the end I have left unimpressed.

Quote: superrick

If Ahigh's shot that he uses was making nothing but hard eights, we would all be saying that he was a DI, only because of his out comes! We wouldn't care about if the dice were on axis or not, quite frankly I don't care who makes me money when I'm playing craps or what kind of shot they are using. If they are making points why would you?

No, we would be saying he got lucky. I challenge you to show me any "control" in his shots. Well, maybe he gets the dice on the table... I'll give him that much for "control."

Quote: superrick

The one thing that a DI tries to do is get the out comes he wants, and he bets accordingly. It doesn't matter if he's dice say on axis or not. All that matters is he is winning his bets! Now the schools that sell you an on axis shot will jump up and down telling you and anybody else that will listen that an off axis shot will not work and that is true for them, because they do not teach it!

How ridiculous... a RANDOM SHOOTER tries to get the outcomes he wants and how he bets. We all agree that dice do not have to be on axis to show winners. But to be a dice influencer, or controller, the dice must exhibit CONTROL and the test of control is staying on axis. Sure the dice can be off axis and still win, but is that control? Really, do you call every random shooter a controller?

Quote: superrick

By the way I still say that nobody's dice stay on axis when they are shooting, just look at Ahigh's slow-mo Videos

Voila!! Exactly right. We certainly agree on that. I don't deny that it is possible to control dice, I just haven't seen it, except for the two times I mentioned -- the surgeon from Washington and the mysterious shooter at Caesars... but even both of them lacked the reliability. As I've said a hundred times, I hope someone can control the dice and I hope I am at their table when they do.

Let me tell you some details about what got me in trouble at Bellagio. I am not a dice influencer or controller. Sure I try, but if I happen to keep my dice on axis it's pure luck. And a run of that pure luck is what got me in trouble. Using the cross-6 set with 5-4 in front I made three soft throws and the dice ended up leaning against the back wall 5-4 all three times. It looked like the ultimate in controlled shooting, and it was only luck. If I tried to do it, I couldn't. It just happened. But the dealers saw what they thought was a perfect shot-- soft lob at 45-degree angle, hit at the end of the come box, soft on axis roll with the dice staying together like they were glued, and they accused me of being a mechanic. "You went to school to rip us off," the stickman said after the first roll. They refused to pay the second roll, and they refused to pay the third, and that's when the yelling started. Three identical perfect rolls -- and it was all pure luck it happened like that. But that's what the casinos look for when they look for dice mechanics. They don't look for dice that separate and bounce all over the place.

Quote: AlanMendelson

"You went to school to rip us off," the stickman said after the first roll. They refused to pay the second roll, and they refused to pay the third, and that's when the yelling started. .

Now that, is a wonderful story. The casino can say
all day long they don't believe in DI, yet a part of
them has doubts.

Its the same with roulette. They don't believe it can
be beat, but if you win every time you play, they
will start looking at you with the evil eye..

when they took the dice away from me at NYNY because I was "setting" (and winning) I asked the floorman, "you don't believe in that, do you?" And the floorman and the box man and the stickman in unision said "yes we do."

I havent been back to NYNY since.

At MGM they had a good reason to be mad at me... I wasn't hitting the back wall with both dice consistently.

At Bellagio I just looked like a mechanic cause I got lucky.

Quote: Ahigh

Very well. You have been blocked. Truth is important, and word selection is not an irrelevant part of conversation.

http://bit.ly/16LyCZP

Generally speaking, you make too many false claims for me to continue spending my time attempting to reason with you.

That is a true statement. We're done.

I just clicked on the link that Ahigh supplied. I was quite surprised to find out that his feathers were ruffled over the use of the term "alike."

Adjective
(of two or more subjects) Similar to each other: "the brothers were very much alike".


I said no two tables are alike in that their bounce may be different and their dimensions may be different.

From the definition he provided via the link his only concern seems to be that alike should only have a more generic definition.

Gosh, now I know why his definition of a "controlled throw" is different from my definition of a "controlled throw" since he thinks all craps tables are "alike."

Quote: AlanMendelson

Gosh, now I know why his definition of a "controlled throw" is different from my definition of a "controlled throw" since he thinks all craps tables are "alike."

He can't think all craps tables are alike, that would
be ridiculous.

Quote: EvenBob

He can't think all craps tables are alike, that would
be ridiculous.

You said it, not me.

Quote: Ahigh

your statement that no craps tables were alike was in fact false due to your inappropriate use of the word "alike."

So, I have to wonder if he thinks all "good shots" are "controlled shots"? And I have to wonder if he thinks all shots that land on the table are "influenced shots"?

Quote: EvenBob

The casino can say all day long they don't believe in DI, yet a part of them has doubts. Its the same with roulette. They don't believe it can be beat, but if you win every time you play, they will start looking at you with the evil eye..

It can't hurt them to be extra wary. As a matter of fact, all the talk and the relatively few barrings probably add to the mystique of being able to beat the house and in the end increase business.

Too many people on here are so obsessed with financial gain. This topic is so much more than being able to have a financial gain and keep it for a lifetime. Luck works GREAT for that. Just know when the say when pretty much!

Hell, I got lucky investing last year and I made $40,000. I stopped for a moment, and I made a conscious decision to just go all cash, and I've been all cash since then and not worried one iota about my money or investing. You can do the same thing gambling.

The casino is and should be more worried about the lucky bastard with too much money and never going to come back than some advantage player who is looking to pull down $100 every day.

I usually take $40 nearly every day from the Silverton. When I take $40 a day for three weeks straight, there is a little bit of chatter. But I can and do have chase sessions and I LOVE them. If you see me betting big I am probably chasing! And I have lost big, I will admit that, no worries.

But even with all of that, they are more worried about me when I am betting multiple black chips on random shooters than they are when I have a controlled shot with $6 on the 6 $6 on the 8 and a dollar on each hard 8. And they should be!!

You have to compartmentalize in order to make any sense out of anything. And when I am gambling and having fun betting it means nothing about advantage play being possible. Looking into advantage play being possible is straight freaking boring because you have to grind like a crazy fool on bet amounts that just aren't exciting as a percentage of your bankroll.

I know I'm rambling, but I am getting it from both sides these days. And generally speaking, I think that most people are really confused about gambling and getting lucky versus grinding an edge for advantage play.

I think a lot of the guys who take classes end up just looking stylish when they get lucky and win (maybe). And when they lose, they feel that they put in more effort.

But we may never get to a point where people understand that having an edge means nothing even until you figure out how to grind on it to make a profit. And even then, goddamn it is freaking boring!

PS: I don't miss reading Alan's posts.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Having an edge on a game isn't boring to me.

Alright. I assume you're talking about BJ, VP, and other things. But stay on topic: if it were proven that you could develop an edge on craps and that it would take three years of practice and you could get a 1% edge on a place bet .. I mean this is what I'm talking about. Does that sound exciting to you?

You're sort of picking out a pretty narrow concept of a broader thing I'm talking about. IE: the context is craps, here, bra.

But if you're saying it wouldn't be boring to grind an edge on craps, step up and show us how excited you could get about doing it.

I think you would tire VERY quickly if you have edges in other games that are much easier to achieve and were grinding a 0.3% to 1.3% advantage on craps.

IE: I think you would NEVER develop an edge in craps even if it were proven possible BECAUSE you would not have the stamina knowing it is so much easier on other games.

Restated: mind the context and restate your position. Not boring? Really?!

PS:

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Okay, thanks for your comments.

deleted

Quote: Ahigh

Too many people on here are so obsessed with financial gain.

Spoken by someone who, among many other things,
has said he hates to lose and loves to win, and has
gone ballistic on dealers who made mistakes that
cost him money. So I take it you include yourself
among those that are obsessed with financial gain.

Quote: EvenBob

Spoken by someone who, among many other things,
has said he hates to lose and loves to win, and has
gone ballistic on dealers who made mistakes that
cost him money. So I take it you include yourself
among those that are obsessed with financial gain.

Well...

The only measuring stick for a win in craps is the money...

Quote: TheWolf713

Well...

The only measuring stick for a win in craps is the money...

Ahigh says its entertainment thats the payoff in
craps. He's happy as long as he was entertained.
And got to go ballistic on the dealer for costing
him money.. Which I guess can be classified as
entertainment also..

I can agree and respect the aspect of entertainment.. I just have never found losing entertaining...

Quote: TheWolf713

I can agree and respect the aspect of entertainment.. I just have never found losing entertaining...

Sometimes the funniest things are losses. I don't know, man. The whole game can be hilarious when you have characters involved.

Most craps games, somebody besides the shooter gets blamed. That helps make it fun.

Quote: Ahigh

Sometimes the funniest things are losses. I don't know, man. The whole game can be hilarious when you have characters involved.

Most craps games, somebody besides the shooter gets blamed. That helps make it fun.

Yeah I've seen some funny stuff .... One time I seen a guy buy in with 20 grand cash (I already knew he was going to be a problem... )

And after holding up the game, he lost it all in a fraction of the time it took to count it!! He was pissed!! Bad betting and a need to show boat

It was like the diving analogy someone used... He did this magnificent set up off the diving board, only to end up doing a belly flop.

Quote: Ahigh

Alright. I assume you're talking about BJ, VP, and other things. But stay on topic: if it were proven that you could develop an edge on craps and that it would take three years of practice and you could get a 1% edge on a place bet .. I mean this is what I'm talking about. Does that sound exciting to you?

It does sound exciting to me. I wouldn't retire. I wouldn't go to the casino much more than I do now. But I would LOVE knowing I had an edge over the casino, even a small one. I enjoy playing craps knowing the casino has an edge on me. If I could flip it, I'd enjoy it more.

Quote: SOOPOO

It does sound exciting to me. I wouldn't retire. I wouldn't go to the casino much more than I do now. But I would LOVE knowing I had an edge over the casino, even a small one. I enjoy playing craps knowing the casino has an edge on me. If I could flip it, I'd enjoy it more.

In my opinion, The absolute only edge a player can increase to improve his play is time exposure.. Of all the things that are discussed and debated on this forum, the one fact that everyone will agree on is over time there is a negative expectation... Why not simply just decrease your time...

of all the math equations most people have ran, I haven't seen Any emphasis on time... Does Anyone believe there is an optimal time limit??

deleted

Quote: TheWolf713

In my opinion, The absolute only edge a player can increase to improve his play is time exposure.. Of all the things that are discussed and debated on this forum, the one fact that everyone will agree on is over time there is a negative expectation... Why not simply just decrease your time...

of all the math equations most people have ran, I haven't seen Any emphasis on time... Does Anyone believe there is an optimal time limit??

To optimize what? Final expected balance, or chance of being ahead? Or chance of reaching a win goal? Or a chance of not busting?

Quote: thecesspit

To optimize what? Final expected balance, or chance of being ahead? Or chance of reaching a win goal? Or a chance of not busting?

All of the above... I know it doesn't sound as intelligent as most discussions... Its not a super throw, But it is one thing you can CONTROL

Quote: SOOPOO

It does sound exciting to me. I wouldn't retire. I wouldn't go to the casino much more than I do now. But I would LOVE knowing I had an edge over the casino, even a small one. I enjoy playing craps knowing the casino has an edge on me. If I could flip it, I'd enjoy it more.

This is an unexpected reply. My distribution of sevens has a pretty small p value. If that gets to .0001 is that enough for you to start training.

Quote: SOOPOO

It does sound exciting to me. I wouldn't retire. I wouldn't go to the casino much more than I do now. But I would LOVE knowing I had an edge over the casino, even a small one. I enjoy playing craps knowing the casino has an edge on me. If I could flip it, I'd enjoy it more.

Would you put in the time/work to attain the skill?

Would you refrain from betting on random shooters at the table?

Quote: TheWolf713

In my opinion, The absolute only edge a player can increase to improve his play is time exposure.

Everyone has a right to an opinion. I think that there might be other ways for a craps player to improve play.

However, this thread is supposed to be concerned with unbalanced/improper dice.

Quote: TheWolf713

Of all the things that are discussed and debated on this forum, the one fact that everyone will agree on is over time there is a negative expectation... Why not simply just decrease your time...

The negative expectation to which you refer is derived from the traditional probability math of a random game. Such a conventional probability conclusion does not account for the influence of significantly unbalanced/improper dice (nor performance dice influencing).

If we only consider a completely random game, of course, the EV is the EV -- duration of play will not change the EV. That said, there has been considerable discussion on the player's power of choice of when to play (and when not to play).

Quote: TheWolf713

But it is one thing you can CONTROL

That is an opinion.

Quote: tupp

That is an opinion.

Thanks for your reply.


I just made another thread so that they can keep on the subject of bad dice..


Back to 6-1

Substance is a little slow today, so I read back a few pages and found this little gym that seems to have gone unanswered?

Quote: Ahigh

The members of this forum are as obsessive over what should be free bets IN THEORY with perfect dice as other forums are about how you throw the dice to be fair to the two opposing camps on the game of craps.

All this does is demonstrate that the bets are not free for any distribution except perfectly flat. Perfectly flat distributions generally don't exist anywhere except in theory.

The challenge is to record outcomes for a stick of dice in a real casino, download the spreadsheet, and see what the edges are in reality of the real world instead of mocking people who believe things that are not compatible with your personal belief system.
...

Quote: Harley

AMEN .... I believe the Wizard has dropped the ball in his own back yard on this issue

Quote: Copyright © 2009-2013 Michael Shackleford

Blacklist Rules

My blacklist is a place for the most unethical of Internet casinos. Reasons for inclusion on the blacklist include:

Game results are not consistent with a random game.

I expect all casinos to offer a fair game as evidenced by the fact that the cards or dice observed fall in line with statistical norms. ...

- Who did the observation of Las Vegas casino dice ??!
- Does the Wizard give the Las Vegas casinos a pass since he is on their payroll ??!
- Is this why he only goes after online casinos ??!!

... or was it just a big assumption .... we know what happens when we assume something .....

https://wizardofodds.com/online-gambling/blacklist/index.php

Saga... that is just the trouble. A long-winded dramatic story. And face it, most of these sagas are about as accurate as the various Icelandic sagas were.

Dice in Las Vegas casinos are perhaps not perfect and some casinos may use cheap dice and use them longer than others do, but it is simply too important to the casino's bottom line to use dice that are so knicked or chipped as to be noticeably gaffed. The Box man inspects the dice from time to time both to identify them as those assigned to that table and also as being free from defective nicks and dents. Perfect? No.

I don't think that the Wizard gives any credibility to the notion that biased dice are being used and/or abused by the casino. Harley got nuked, and it's a taboo topic now.

I'm surprised you ventured out onto this subject!

I don't even talk about this subject except in private as I know it would spill over into this forum if I did.

Quote: FleaStiff

Saga... that is just the trouble. A long-winded dramatic story. And face it, most of these sagas are about as accurate as the various Icelandic sagas were.

Dice in Las Vegas casinos are perhaps not perfect and some casinos may use cheap dice and use them longer than others do, but it is simply too important to the casino's bottom line to use dice that are so knicked or chipped as to be noticeably gaffed. The Box man inspects the dice from time to time both to identify them as those assigned to that table and also as being free from defective nicks and dents. Perfect? No.

And also add: would a casino risk using biased dice on a game that they're banking? The bias could go against them, couldn't it?

Quote: AlanMendelson

And also add: would a casino risk using biased dice on a game that they're banking? The bias could go against them, couldn't it?

Absolutely.

An astute, observant player at a game where the casino introduced biased dice might notice the bias and then jump all over it.

For example, if the dice are heavily biased to favor a seven: load up on DP / DC.

Roulette has "wheel clockers;" can craps be far behind?

Hello, tote boards at the craps table ...

*AWAKENS ... just had the weirdest dream*

Quote: MrV

An astute, observant player at a game where the casino introduced biased dice might notice the bias and then jump all over it.

Here we go again. For the record, the way to exploit the biased dice described by Harley is to bet the field.

Your statement above is true.

Here is another true statement, "someone on the Wizard of Vegas might actually give some serious thought to the research I have done on the topic."

Your statement is more likely, however, I think.

Dismiss amongst yourselves!

If there are any wahoos out there that want to fool around with this, reverse martingale the field (IE: try not to get paid) starting at the house minimum.

When they force you to take pay, that's the casino crying uncle.

Take a unit or two and hop the boxcars or aces when that hits if you want to make it fun.

I rolled aces three times in a row on a random shot at the Aria on dice with the serial number "6660" during the week last week.

When I bet the aces after losing $20 in two rolls to aces on the comeout to 100% random tosses and won, the box man had a very unusual reaction.

I started with $3,600 this trip and ended with $3,603. I was down $800 in the middle.

Since it's not clear, I randomly rolled aces three times in a row on the comeout and hopped the aces after doing it twice in a row and won.

All three throws were 100% random tosses.

Quote: Ahigh

For the record, the way to exploit the biased dice described by Harley is to bet the field.

Didn't he detect a bias so that dice showed more 6/1 combinations or "7" ??

So, I have to ask this question: if the bias is for the "7" why would you bet the field?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Didn't he detect a bias so that dice showed more 6/1 combinations or "7" ??

So, I have to ask this question: if the bias is for the "7" why would you bet the field?

Do a search! I created an excel spreadsheet to show you the modified house edge for all the bets in question.

Type in the chances of each face from 1 to 6 of occurring, and it tells you the modified edge of each bet.

Quote: Ahigh

Take a unit or two and hop the boxcars or aces when that hits if you want to make it fun.

Ummm.... isnt the bet on aces or 12 always a hop bet?

Quote: Ahigh

Do a search! I created an excel spreadsheet to show you the modified house edge for all the bets in question.

Type in the chances of each face from 1 to 6 of occurring, and it tells you the modified edge of each bet.

Before I bother to do that I have to be shown that casinos have bias dice. Sorry.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Ummm.... isnt the bet on aces or 12 always a hop bet?

Except the field and in crapless, yes. Don't pass and DC also get paid on the aces.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Before I bother to do that I have to be shown that casinos have bias dice. Sorry.

Every die is biased. Let's not argue about this please. You are wrong if you think a single fair die exists anywhere except in theory.

This is all a measure of how much not if it's there or not.

Thus the spreadsheet.

Just close your mind back up and move along.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/13148-bad-dice-the-saga-continues/28/#post227534

Quote: Ahigh

Every die is biased. Let's not argue about this please.

Why shouldn't we argue about this? If you believe that "every die is biased" then you are saying that every game is not fair. Is that what you are saying? Are you saying that the casinos are deliberately cheating players? Are you saying that the casinos are willingly accepting the risk of using biased dice whether that risk be financial through losses or legal through detection by gaming enforcement?

What amazes me is that despite all the reports that video poker machines are rigged, and wheels are rigged, and dice are biased, the casinos have such a tight grip on their employees, and the manufacturers have such a tight grip on their employees, that no whistleblower has ever leaked the evidence to 60 Minutes or the Washington Post or the New York Times or even the LVRJ or the SEC or FTC or Department of Justice.

Damn... what are they serving in the kool aid in the cafeterias that gives these companies such control to cover up such widespread illegal operations.

Forget the dice... you guys should focus on some other things that are more important:

1. Where is Jimmy Hoffa?
2. How many gunmen shot JFK?
3. Where is the government keeping the bodies of the space aliens?
4. Why was the government behind the spread of the Aids epidemic?
5. Why are the auto companies hiding the perpetual motion machine?

While the notion of casinos exploiting biased dice is juicy, I have to ask: have ANY casino employees come forward and publicly spoken out on the issue, providing facts / specifics?

There are a LOT of disgruntled casino employees.

Nevada seems to allow whistle blower suits.

A sharp lawyer could have a lot of fun with this one, IF it could be substantiated / proven.