dice control

New to the Wizard and I get the impression that this is a well informed bunch.....what's the verdict on the concept of "dice control"......

As hotly debated as anywhere else.

My personal opinion: Technically feasible, though I seriously doubt that the vast majority of people who claim to be proficient can do anything useful.

Quote: treetopbuddy

New to the Wizard and I get the impression that this is a well informed bunch.....what's the verdict on the concept of "dice control"......

I'm up for a dice control discussion as much as the next guy, probably more, but this had to be a troll thread. Use the search function.

the idea is intoxicating but having played craps for years it's clear to me the seven is the hammer......the action on the dice seem to be too random even when playing with "dice controllers"

if i owned this site i would just ban dice control discussions entirely

no.....just wanted opinions on the subject

well that's one thumbs down for dice control

deleted

There's been plenty of discussion if you want to look for it.

Of the best points that have been made, I would pick these:

*if possible, only the most talented could pull it off, the rest of us can forget it.

*that momentum is factored by velocity squared means the task is greater than might be assumed. Little changes in velocity are actually huge changes.

*casinos have to be tolerant for it to work too. If they are losing money they won't be tolerant. Some posters have related stories about intolerant casinos.

*it is fairly irresistible for trying to do it. I think the more you play craps, the more you are tempted to set the dice at least. I am quite sure I am ineffective but I have my sets I do, and it is part of the fun for me.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Writing books and teaching seminars don't count.

That's the ONLY way to make money from craps. There are just enough suckers that believe in that nonsense.

Actually, there is another way to make money from craps.....own the casino.

thanks for cherry picking those posts.....yeah if dice control worked the casinos would put in a vibrating/moving backboards or something to that effect....small changes in velocity resulting in big changes sums it up...

deleted

Quote: MakingBook

That's the ONLY way to make money from craps. There are just enough suckers that believe in that nonsense.

Actually, there is another way to make money from craps.....own the casino.

another way to make money from craps is to make the "first" dice in a given element.

I believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster.....Ramen

Quote: treetopbuddy

New to the Wizard and I get the impression that this is a well informed bunch.....what's the verdict on the concept of "dice control"......

I have spent a lot of time investigating this, watched the golden touch DVDs, read the books, and practiced a lot of hours, thrown in a lot of casinos, won a lot, lost a lot, I have some conclusions

1) my overall SRR is too close to EV for there to be any distinguishable difference, and my sample size is not small
2) some casinos allow controlled throwing because they dont believe it works, some dont
3) Dice control is HARD, most people cant do it and it takes a LOT of practice before you can see any effects (a LOT LOT LOT of practice, and perhaps talent)
4) I have yet to hear about someone who doesnt work and just plays craps all day
5) steve forte threw 100,000 'controlled throws' and he is damn good with controlled slight of hand and dice tricks, he said that the results were "indistinguishable from random" [im not sure how true this is, but I have heard it from two different sources]

I still play craps, I still have dice on my bedside table, I throw them everyday, I love craps and I will never stop playing, but if you want to control dice for a living, you might want to re-think what you want to do for a living

Yes, you can control the fact that the dice either do, or do not, hit the back wall. That's about it.

Quote: sodawater

another way to make money from craps is to make the "first" dice in a given element.

I'm planning to make a die from dried dog crap. I searched the web and found nothing, so I'll be the first!

Wonder how much I can sell it for?

Quote: treetopbuddy

I believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster.....Ramen

May you be touched by His noodly appendage.

Quote: treetopbuddy

thanks for cherry picking those posts.....yeah if dice control worked the casinos would put in a vibrating/moving backboards or something to that effect....small changes in velocity resulting in big changes sums it up...

If dice control worked and the casinos wanted to stop it, they would make you toss the dice out of a YAHTZEE cup.

There's a lot of great fiction on becoming a DI, and there are some shots that will work better than just picking up the dice a throwing them. But you also have to look on the other side of all the BS, that is written about some of these guys, that are the so-called experts on being a DI.

Just look at who holds the record for the longest roll, a so-called random roller, that these writers want there followers to never bet on.
If you want a really good laugh, there was a post on one of the craps boards where a poster wrote, that he rolled 19 fours and 20 tens in one hand, or it might have been the other way aound. What's the difference, it was a great piece of fiction that all the so-called DI's believed to be true.
When he made that claim he wrote that he made 13 PL-Point repeaters covering only three PL-numbers, the 4, the 6, and the 10!

That just goes to show you how ridiculous some of these writers are, if I owned a craps board that he was posting on I would ban him if he didn't stop writing BS. Those kinds of posters just add fuel to the fire and is why players now get heat when they get on a roll. The casinos read all the books and the craps boards and they believe this kind of BS, because they are just as superstitious as the craps players. They will do anything they can to stop a large roll from happening if the can and someone stupid is sweating the money!


I still say taking a class is a smart thing to do if they teach the right way to bet the game! But I would not take any class from someone that is allowing BS post like that on their board! Or knows that the same poster is posting that BS on a different board!

This is coming from someone that is called a DI, but tells it like it is, we all get on some good rolls and we all have days when we should have stayed home. It all starts with learning the right way to bet the game and knowing that it's a negative-expection game. You will read a lot of BS on being a DI unfortunately, you will see some of these stupid bets that some of these posters write about, but remember this every time you walk into a casino, they built them on guys that believe BS about the game!

People can no more influence the dice than they can their cat.

*purr*

Quote: treetopbuddy

New to the Wizard and I get the impression that this is a well informed bunch.....what's the verdict on the concept of "dice control"......

The jury is out.

Deliberations continue.

There is no proof that influencing the dice is possible, and so casinos continue to allow you to set the dice and believe that it is. They even encourage this thinking as they make more money the more confident you are to make bigger bets.

Provided that proof is made, it may still be allowed providing that the casino's hold rates don't significantly change.

Especially if the revenue increases, casinos only care about their BIG PICTURE.

Those who can influence the dice (whether the count is zero or higher) want to stay under the radar and win small enough amounts not to affect the casinos policies on setting and throwing.

The casino policies aren't going to change until a casino is hit hard enough to affect their bottom line.

I don't know of any of these stories for a while, but it happens just as a result of luck no matter if dice control is possible or not.

So even if it does happen, it can just be luck. But if I were to go to Binions and win a million or more, they would be squawking, I'm pretty sure (since they started squawking after $50 of wins when I rolled there last).

Even if it's proven to be possible, the casinos are only going to change their policies if the money stops coming in.

Quote: Ahigh

Those who can influence the dice (whether the count is zero or higher) want to stay under the radar and win small enough amounts not to affect the casinos policies on setting and throwing.

There are NO such people. The jury is not 'out'. Anyone can believe any fairy tale they want to......

Quote: treetopbuddy

New to the Wizard and I get the impression that this is a well informed bunch.....what's the verdict on the concept of "dice control"......

See this thread also
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/3195-controlled-dice-shooting-is-bs/

Dale S. Yeazel article and him seem to have disappeared.
He may have made that final trip to the Big Craps table in the sky.
Next time I'm at Main Street Station I will ask about him.

So here is that article.
It can be removed when Dale asks, if that happens
==================================

Controlled Shooting is Bullshit!

by Dale S. Yeazel

In the last few years, there have been dozens of books written about, websites created for and seminars instructing the art of controlled shooting. “Controlled shooting” goes by other names, such as: “rhythmic rolling” (presumably for Catholics) or “precision shooting.” I believe that gaming authors finally realized the book buying public is smart enough not to believe in betting systems that are alleged to overcome a fixed percentage game, like craps, have created the interest in the subject.

This pseudo science was created years ago: a writer that believed that shooters that took their time to pick up and shoot the dice and did this in a consistent fashion were less likely to seven-out. These prodigious few were deemed to be “rhythmic rollers’ and the method used to discover who these were, was to let them shoot for five rolls after coming-out on a point, to demonstrate they were one of the chosen ones. This theory was eventually combined with another writer’s theory of setting the dice with specific numbers facing skyward and with the dice turned in a predetermined direction.

It was only after rational minds scoffed at the idea of either of these techniques influencing the outcome of the roll or reducing the house percentage was the technique elaborated on by suggesting that following this process and attempting to keep the dice on axis, would minimize the appearance of the numbers of the horizontal ends of the dice.

The “proof’ of the validity of this method that is usually offered, is to compute how many less sevens need to be thrown than the six of them that would be expected in the thirty-six dice combinations, in order to make a certain bet on the table a positive expectation bet. Well no shit, if you can roll less than the expected number of sevens, you can turn a crap game into an ATM machine. The question is: is there anyone out there that can accomplish this? Why some usually intelligent gamblers are persuaded by this technique is because they are just educated enough to be suckers. Anyone that has done any amount of reading on the subject of dice control knows there is such a thing as a “blanket roll” that was used during WWII.

If the dice are rolled on blanket that is the top layer of a bed, the blanket will act as a cushion and it isn’t difficult to keep the dice on axis. Another technique is to place one end of an Army blanket under a footlocker and weigh down the other end, so the blanket would hang loosely in front of it. This gave the shooter a backboard to shoot against and gave everyone but the hustlers a false sense of security. This backboard merely gave the shooter a cushion that could help keep the dice on axis after impact. It wasn’t unusual for the dice to stay on axis, even as they slid or rolled down the blanket. The method of setting the dice for less sevens or more point numbers had been discovered years earlier by dice hustlers that would only shoot craps on dirt, where they could keep the dice on axis or even perform a “helicopter shot” where they would throw the dice with the desired number facing skyward. By putting just enough spin on the dice to keep the desired number up, they could count on the dirt acting as a cushion and “killing” the shot.

Of course it is helpful to be “one with the gods” when trying to control three-dimensional objects that are flying through space. Amphetamine and cocaine based products are probably the drugs of choice for today’s dice wizards, as users feel as they have more hand-eye coordination when taking them. Hallucinogens can also be helpful, although it doesn’t matter how many winners the shooter throws on his personal astral plane. His payoffs are based on how many winners he throws on the casino’s plane of existence. I remember overhearing a conversation between a dice wizard and his friend. His friend asked; “Did you see how consistent your trajectory was on that throw?” Dr. Leary replied; “Hell yes, I can still see the tracer!” The truly delusional can even believe they are Darth Vader and can use the force to not only control the dice but also have enough telekinesis left over to choke the boxman.

The only question that really needs to be addressed is whether or not a modern casino crap table has the type of surface and other conditions that will permit a controlled shot. I don’t know about you but I have no intention of believing anyone other than an expert in the field of casino game protection. Two of the brightest stars in this profession are Steve Forte, author of “Casino Game Protection – A Comprehensive Guide” and Bill Zender, author of “Advantage Play for the Casino Executive.” I had the pleasure of watching Mr. Forte demonstrate his slide shot, which the only reliable method of throwing a controlled shot on a crap table. Mr. Forte conducted a test where he set the dice and dropped them straight down to a craps layout, from a height of ten inches. He recorded six thousand rolls and found no significant deviation from the expected results. And as he points out in his book, on a live crap game, the shooter is required to throw the dice higher, harder, farther and around obstacles that weren’t present in his test. In his book Mr. Zender illustrates the ideal throw for the dice setter.


But he also references a study by a consulting group that concluded the force of the throw is 222 times greater than necessary to take the dice off axis and this is without hitting the rubber pyramids.

But as a crap dealer and supervisor, my biggest gripe with dice setting is the type of behavior it encourages.
All this talk of dice setting has some morons taking an ungodly length of time to set the dice and throw. And when the stickman or boxman ask them to set the dice a little faster, they go into a tirade about how the suits are afraid of their ability to shoot winners!

© 2006 Dale S. Yeazel

Quote: Venthus

As hotly debated as anywhere else.

My personal opinion: Technically feasible, though I seriously doubt that the vast majority of people who claim to be proficient can do anything useful.

I like this answer, but I would phrase it this way:

Theoretically possible but I don't know of anyone who can do it consistently enough to make a difference in random distribution or prove the ability to alter the random distribution.

Quote: SOOPOO

There are NO such people. The jury is not 'out'. Anyone can believe any fairy tale they want to......

The fairy tale that you believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE is just as unproven as the conclusion that it is. So your beliefs are no more valid than the guys who sell classes.

Quote: Ahigh

The fairy tale that you believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE is just as unproven as the conclusion that it is. So your beliefs are no more valid than the guys who sell classes.

Aaron- anyone making an outlandish claim does not have the right to say 'but you can't prove I'm wrong'. The burden of proof falls on the one making the claim. By the way, I was born on Jupiter. Do I have to force you to 'prove' me wrong? Of course not!

Quote: Ahigh

The fairy tale that you believe that it is IMPOSSIBLE is just as unproven as the conclusion that it is. So your beliefs are no more valid than the guys who sell classes.

Your logic is flawed.

Must he prove a negative?

No.

You think it exists: prove it.

Otherwise, STFU.

Ahigh

You only have to look at all the videos you have posted about your shooting, to see that you're dice are not staying on axis and are bouncing all over the place once they hit the felt.

Just in case you have forgotten what you're dice looks like when they hit that felt, here are some of you're videos.

Last night when playing craps at one of the casinos you go to, there was a young guy that never even picked up the dice before. He didn't know a thing about the game.

Here is the guys roll that never played craps before and was at the casino just to have some fun and a have a few drinks, remember I track everybody’s roll on the tables!

10H, 10H, W 5/2, 12, 8, 4, 8, W 10H, 10H, W 4, 4H, W 5, 10, 10, 6H 9, 5, W 6, 6/1 out!

He had 19 rolls which 4 of them were hard 10’s one was a hard 4 and one was a hard 6, and no his name wasn’t Ahigh! He just got lucky, like anybody can do when playing craps. The next time he plays craps, he too can tell everybody in the world that he makes all those hardways, but the truth would be that he is just one more random roller, that got lucky.

Now if he had a Video camera running when this happened he too could post it on the different craps boards, to show the world what he did!
Oh, please; I’m not picking on Ahigh, just showing what happens everyday on the real craps tables in the casinos, and not at home with a camera running for that once in a life
time roll!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni-uMB17x4I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jej4WNRGyR8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYo1XHjBNOw

Ahigh I think you are doing a great job with all your videos, they show us a lot , we now can see just how much the dice bounce around when they hit the table. No human can make the same shot every time they make a shot! Sure we all get lucky and some times get the results in a few of your videos for the hard ways. The problem is I don't see 250 videos of you doing the same thing every time you step up to your home table, and things get a lot harder when your in a real casinos and dealers, suits and everybody else are doing things that will stop your roll!

Please keep up your good work, I hope that you do prove something beside what you have already showed and that is the dice bounce all over the place when you make a shot!!!!

SOOPOO believes it is not possible because he considers it outlandish.

SuperRick believes that bias cannot exist in my throws because of a lack of comprehension for how they bounce, only able to classify it as "bouncing all over the place.

Neither is a proper foundation for a scientific assertion.

Be a believer of what you will, though.

Both super Rick and SOOPOO make a habit of being skeptical. But having beliefs like this with a proper foundation I think is wreckless thinking.

Quote: Ahigh

SuperRick believes that bias cannot exist in my throws because of a lack of comprehension for how they bounce, only able to classify it as "bouncing all over the place.

Your throws do not stay on axis, at least not in your videos. If keeping the dice on-axis is not the physical mechanism whereby you intend to achieve your advantage, what is?

The only alternate approach I can imagine (off the top of my head) is that even if you're not keeping the dice on-axis, you think you can achieve some consistency in face displacement from a starting position, such that if a first throw of a die has a displacement of R faces of roll and P faces of pitch, that a subsequent throw has a greater than average chance to have the same displacement R and P (and a correspondingly smaller chance to have displacements of not-R or not-P). Is that it?

I have to agree with Math Extremist's questioning here.

The rest of us think of dice control and dice influencing as having some measure of controlling or influencing how the dice fly in the air, bounce on the table and hit the back wall plus how many rotations the dice may make, what faces show, and the dice staying either on axis or close to it. Your throws in your videos, A high, exhibit NONE of these attributes of DI or DC.

So what is your formula for DI or DC that you believe you have?

Quote: Ahigh

The jury is out.

Deliberations continue.

Some of the juries are still out, but the majority of the juries are back in.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I like this answer, but I would phrase it this way:

Theoretically possible but I don't know of anyone who can do it consistently enough to make a difference in random distribution or prove the ability to alter the random distribution.

I'm not even convinced it is theoretically possible, as I think the theories about same speed/positions/spin/hit on the back wall etc... are flawed. I don't think there is the same level of control of the conditions on a craps table that people think there is even for the Netwonian theories to work.

Very intriguing. I do not follow, nor am I a member of ANY particular existing group of thought for HOW biased results occur in terms of bouncing behaviors.

I have never even a single time said that on-axis is how you can get more consistent results than random.

I simply go for throwing consistently as I can. Motor memory and being results oriented are the two keys to my philosophy at this point.

I do not have to prove that my dice bounce a particular way in order to demonstrate bias.

You guys who point to these things as evidence that there is no bias are stretching just as much as those who point to theory of dice staying on axis as proof of anything.

On axis or off axis, I look at the results and I film video for evidence.

Quote: thecesspit

Quote: Ahigh

The jury is out.

Deliberations continue.

Some of the juries are still out, but the majority of the juries are back in.

So what jury has proof that it is not possible. I missed that verdict.

Quote: Ahigh

So what jury has proof that it is not possible. I missed that verdict.

The same jury that ruled I'm not from Jupiter.

Quote: SOOPOO

The same jury that ruled I'm not from Jupiter.

Any more such drivel and the Jupitarian Council may call you home to face charges of treason.

Quote: MathExtremist

Your throws do not stay on axis, at least not in your videos. If keeping the dice on-axis is not the physical mechanism whereby you intend to achieve your advantage, what is?

Some recent clues...

From Ahigh:
January 4th, 2013 at 11:11:57 PM
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/12502-long-roll-at-the-silverton-tonight/#post207135

"and he definitely benefited from me concentrating on shooting instead of betting and other things."

More clues here
January 5th, 2013 at 5:54:32 AM
"I had one roll where the dice hit the diamonds, and I called it out saying "oh no." But I got lucky.

All the other rolls kept the dice off the pyramids and were still legal throws that I felt like I did what I could to stay in the parameters of what I think is a good shot."

January 6th, 2013 at 7:45:01 AM
Given that it is my pursuit to demonstrate that it is possible to control the dice
having the video evidence of exactly how I accomplish that is critical.

added:
The 3rd clue from above post
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/craps/12600-dice-control/4/#post209719
"I simply go for throwing consistently as I can.
Motor memory and being results oriented are the two keys to my philosophy at this point.
I do not have to prove that my dice bounce a particular way in order to demonstrate bias."

Looks to me to be a work still in progress.
More Good Luck

Quote: Ahigh

Very intriguing. I do not follow, nor am I a member of ANY particular existing group of thought for HOW biased results occur in terms of bouncing behaviors.

I have never even a single time said that on-axis is how you can get more consistent results than random.

I simply go for throwing consistently as I can. Motor memory and being results oriented are the two keys to my philosophy at this point.

I do not have to prove that my dice bounce a particular way in order to demonstrate bias.

You guys who point to these things as evidence that there is no bias are stretching just as much as those who point to theory of dice staying on axis as proof of anything.

On axis or off axis, I look at the results and I film video for evidence.

If you had a plausible theory of bias such that you could quantify the probability distribution of your allegedly biased dice, you could determine the appropriate trial size needed to reject the null hypothesis of uniform die-face distribution. Then you could conduct that many trials. But you don't have an alternate hypothesis at all. You appear to be just hoping that your philosophy of "consistent throwing" can somehow generate repeatable bias. Clearly you haven't demonstrated this to yourself yet or this would be a different conversation.

According to your current thinking, how many throws will it take to convince yourself that you have achieved the ability to influence the dice?

He will prove dice setting works tomorrow, or the day after that, or the day after that, etc.

Quote: MathExtremist

You appear to be just hoping that your philosophy of "consistent throwing" can somehow generate repeatable bias. Clearly you haven't demonstrated this to yourself yet or this would be a different conversation.

According to your current thinking, how many throws will it take to convince yourself that you have achieved the ability to influence the dice?

So, it now boils down to (from my last post)
1) me (Ahigh) concentrating on shooting (meaning)
I simply go for throwing consistently as I can.
Motor memory and being results oriented are the two keys to my philosophy at this point

2) All the other rolls kept the dice off the pyramids
and were still legal throws that I felt like I did what I could to stay in the parameters of what I think is a good shot

#2 is what many DIs claim is a key point. Do not hit those pyramids at all cost!

#1 is unique to Ahigh
He is using KISS
just be consistent and the results will show bias

Simple

Quote: MathExtremist

If you had a plausible theory of bias such that you could quantify the probability distribution of your allegedly biased dice, you could determine the appropriate trial size needed to reject the null hypothesis of uniform die-face distribution.

Indeed. This would give proof to me, a mathematical trial and test. Not post-hoc analysis. I await this, and not multiple videos of slow motion dice analysis.

It would be of extreme interest to the jury.

Meet the jury's visual system.

Quote: Ahigh

Meet the jury's visual system.

are those negotiable chips?

Quote: Ahigh

Meet the jury's visual system.

I refer the honorable member to the statement I made not moments ago.

Nope. Those are "Casino de Isthmus / 007" chips. They cost over $1.00 each though (about $1.30 after tax and stuff - the ones from the $500 purples and to the right.) I have never had that much money's worth of negotiable chips in my possession, and if I did, they wouldn't be on my craps table. They would be on the rail in a casino or on the way to the cage.

Quote: sodawater

are those negotiable chips?

They are nice chips; similar to the ones you'd find at nicer casinos like Mirage and Harrah's. I recommend any forum member who can snag an invite to visit AHigh's setup. Extremely interesting stuff, especially his software program, which makes WinCraps look like an Atari 2600 program. I had the opportunity to see him demonstrate the software the other day and I was just blown away. The graphing element is very impressive.

Quote: teddys

I recommend any forum member who can snag an invite to visit AHigh's setup.

Why?

I understand some Sasquatch hunters are pretty well-equipped as well.

Sasquash has a casino in Blackhawk. Having seen him, I would also like to see ahigh's paradice !