What is your opening bet at the craps pit?

You've just bought in and are ready to play.

What is the first bet you make?

If you are shooting?

If someone else has the dice and is beginning their roll?

If I'm shooting, pass line bet. Once point has been established, get my free odds, then iron cross and a come bet.

If someone else is shooting, I'll watch their rolls, decide if I like the way they shoot (because such a nebulous concept makes a difference, right?), then bet iron cross.

If it is a pit that has the fire bet, I will admit I put $1 on the fire bet every time, even if I think the shooter is a seven-machine, because I look at it as similar to paying the lottery, and don't expect to get paid. Obviously, it is cheaper for me to play on pits without a fire bet.

What is your opening bet?

Sometimes, I'll bet pass line, take odds.
Sometimes, I'll bet don't pass, lay odds.

Either way, I lose every time. Doesn't matter.

Someone should follow me to the craps table and fade my bets. Eventually, you will be 86'd.

Place six and eight, usually twelve bucks each.

I generally don't shoot when I first step up.

I'll wait for a shooter to establish a point, then spread a big bet inside. As soon as one number is hit, take it down to a minimum bet inside, then press them slowly.

This seems to work well, making money even on cold tables - with the exception of the very cold table where you have two roll shooters.

Read more about it here:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/1907-how-to-win-at-a-cold-craps-and-be-ready-when-it-turns-hot/

My first action after buy in is always a toke for the crew. To me, it makes more sense than a tip upon leaving. Might as well get attentive service the whole time I'm playing.

Pass line at table minimum, followed by a come bet and full odds once the point is established.

Quote: darthvader

My first action after buy in is always a toke for the crew. To me, it makes more sense than a tip upon leaving. Might as well get attentive service the whole time I'm playing.

Good for you. Nothing gets an entire crew's attention such as a dealer saying "Dealers are on the Line" or "Dealers Have Shoes". I once made two Don't Bets for myself and the Dealers, added shoes, each won. I got their attention. I spent the entire rest of the night on the Pass and Come Lines and mainly on Placing the six and eight, but they kept me up solely due to those first two phrases the dealer uttered to his team mates! I made money and so did the dealers on those first two bets but I spent most of the night as a Right Way bettor. It was sheer whim.

PL bet, with 5x odds, and $54 across.

hop everything!

I bet the Don'ts first to start unless I'm shooting where I'll bet the pass line with 1X odds. If I've been scouting the table, I might do the Don'ts for $20 and the 5/9 or 6/8 for $10/$12 each (1-2 hits or 4-5 rolls followed by a take me down on the place bets and leave up the Don'ts).

Come-Out... $5 Pass + $3 Field
If not... $6 6&8.

If it's the come-out, $25 on the pass or don't pass. If a roll is in progress, $25 on the come or don't come. Usually backed up with full odds as allowed by the table, but sometimes just 3-4-5x odds (or 6x don't odds) if I don't feel like going to 10x or 20x.

Meaning of phrase "Dealers Have Shoes"?

Quote: darthvader

Meaning of phrase "Dealers Have Shoes"?

I think it's a joke saying they have enough money to buy shoes now that they have been tipped.

On my last trip to Vegas in October, one of the dealers at Paris would incessantly rap on the toke box with the stick whenever he was stickman. It was really annoying, especially since I was tipping heavily (frequent $25 line bets for the dealers, all the hard ways for $5 each, etc.). It got to a point where I was actually tipping more than I usually would, just because I wanted to see if he would stop! (He didn't, BTW.) So I guess he accomplished his intended purpose.

I found it to be very rude, but I didn't say anything, as I was more caught off guard and was curious about it from an intellectual perspective. Damn, I never wrote up a full trip report from that trip...

Quote: darthvader

Meaning of phrase "Dealers Have Shoes"?

It's similar to "Baby needs a new pair of shoes."

It means there's a pass line bet, with odds, for the dealers.

Quote: AcesAndEights

On my last trip to Vegas in October, one of the dealers at Paris would incessantly rap on the toke box with the stick whenever he was stickman. It was really annoying, especially since I was tipping heavily (frequent $25 line bets for the dealers, all the hard ways for $5 each, etc.). It got to a point where I was actually tipping more than I usually would, just because I wanted to see if he would stop! (He didn't, BTW.) So I guess he accomplished his intended purpose.

I found it to be very rude, but I didn't say anything, as I was more caught off guard and was curious about it from an intellectual perspective. Damn, I never wrote up a full trip report from that trip...

I agree. That is poor taste. I also like it when they say "thank you for the bet" even if it doesn't win. I tip more when I feel it is noticed.

On my last trip, a dealer pointed out that with 350 dealers working the floor, it takes $350 in there to make $1. His tone wasn't nasty about it. I think it was just to give some perspective.

Quote: darthvader

Meaning of phrase "Dealers Have Shoes"?

If you make a LINE BET for the Dealers, they are usually quite happy even if it is just that line bet and nothing else.
IF you happen to choose to INCREASE the chance for some dealer money by putting down some Dealer's ODDS BET behind the Dealer's LINE BET, this is referred to as giving the bet shoes.

The Stick will often announce "Dealers Have Shoes" to alert ALL crewmen that a newly arrived player is doing the Lord's work, ie, making bets for the dealers and even backing up their line bets with Odds Bets for them. If the point is made, the dealers will pay their odds bet and also pay their line bet and then pick up the bets and the payoffs.

This is what gets a player noticed. Dealers may think he is a fool, but you bet they will watch his action and keep him happy.

(3/4/5x odds)

passline, place 6+8, continuous come.

or if i'm short on time, a one time bet of:
$100 dont pass, $600 odds :o
win or lose, i walk away

Quote: 100xOdds

(3/4/5x odds)

or if i'm short on time, a one time bet of:
$100 dont pass, $600 odds :o
win or lose, i walk away

Those in a hurry often lose. I missed a flight in Nassau once due to a long roll. I was winning of course.

I always wait until I can be the shooter. Then pass line(usually $25.usd) and full odds, place all the numbers($25-$30), press up to three units. Let the black chips flow in to my pocket rather than in the rack. Never reach back in for them, don't count them. You'd be surprised how many you have if you have a decent roll. Buy in normally only $500.usd..

In the past it was the same betting whether I was shooting or someone else was shooting (but not a don't player):

Pass line with an any craps bet or a horn-high-ace-deuce bet to protect the passling come out. Then I place the numbers across. Full odds.

If it's a don't shooter, I don't bet and let him have his fun.

My NEW strategy is to bet the max on the Fire Bet with a passline and craps bet to insure it, and hope the shooter gets all six points.

Alan

Just out of curiosity how many times has that paid off for you? I only try to play on what I call bonus bet tables and the fire bet is one of them. Most players will never bet on a fire bet, even if they are a so-called DI's, way to funny if you ask me!

If you are asking about my "new" strategy? Well I only used it once... at the tail end of a trip to Vegas when I did pretty well at video poker but was doing poorly at craps.

I played the "new strategy" for four different shooters at a $25 table. The first three shooters made two passes each. So I made a small profit. But in my book, ANY profit is a good profit.

The fourth shooter made six passes, but only three different numbers, so no firebet payoff. After his second pass the dealers said to me "Alan, what's with you tonight?" Because... I wasn't betting. And I simply "I want this guy to hit all six passes. Let him go. I'm not going to jinx him now." And for the next five minutes it looked like he would. And I made a little money on him too.

After that I said to myself it is not a bad way to play. There is no pressure having a lot of money on the table and you can cheer on the shooter just as if you did have a lot of money on the table.

Alan

There was a player at one of the local casinos that only played the pass-line and a fire bet on himself and a few other shooters, at one of the local casinos herein Vegas. He did quite well by doing only that. He had a very low risk and a very high return on his investment.

Did he win all the time, no but when he did he made up for all the times he lost. When you think about it all you have to do is have two come out 7’s and your bets are paid for. He wasn’t trying to make money by risking a few bets at a time, if he didn’t hit four points or more he wasn’t making that much money off the table, but he never was stressed if he had a few losing rolls.

There was enough four point fire bet rolls, that kept this guy in the game making money off what he was doing. Is it a good betting strategy, you be the judge of that, what works for one player doesn’t always work for the next guy! For someone that gets to play all the time and is a local, it would work a lot better then the guy that comes in to Vegas one to two times a year. The only reason I’m saying that is because someone that only plays a few times a year has a different outlook on the way they play and how much money they want to risk when they are playing.

Most of these players that are only playing a few times a year are looking for a higher pay off on what they are betting, and are playing craps for the fun of it. If you took a survey of all the players on the strip, about how much they knew about the game of craps most readers on this board would be shocked about how little players know about the game they are playing.

If you want a good laugh, just stand at one of the craps tables on the strip when they are giving their free craps lessons. I’ve only heard one dealer giving out good advice about how to play on the strip. Most of these players have never even read a bad book on the game, let alone a good one!

I haven't coded up fire bets into my simulator. But it might be worthwhile to do.

Knowing where the break-even point is for a fire bet relative to a set of data for rolls, or a synthesized bias might be useful.

The edge per event is well known to be in the 20% range. That's enough reason for many math-minded people to write off the bet as anything but a sucker bet.

But at the same time, I imagine there is a reason that the last place I saw pay a six-point fire bet (total of $17,000 in payouts while SOOPOO and I were there) currently has boxmen click a counter device for each dollar that is bet and not won on the fire bet.

Quote: Ahigh

I imagine there is a reason that the last place I saw pay a six-point fire bet (total of $17,000 in payouts while SOOPOO and I were there) currently has boxmen click a counter device for each dollar that is bet and not won on the fire bet.

Shows to go you how dumb casino management is, not to just trust the math but panic at a big payout ... no wonder the Wizard couldn't keep his job at the Venetian, he was probably considered a Warlock there instead of a Wizard, casting spells and such.

I would tend to agree on Player Ignorance, both overall and in relation to Craps, and also on an increasing tendency to look for Big Payoffs (a la Slot Machines) on these Fancy Craps Side Bets perhaps because of Lottery Conditioning wherein prizes are so humungous that sales tend to slack off at grand prizes of only a few million dollars.

With various headlines filled with Giga Hundred Zillion Lottery payouts and Slot Payouts of Humungous Millions being in the headlines and flashing lights all the time, its hard for players to stay focused on the math and the simple truths.

Players at five dollar 6:5 Hit Soft 17 games see their money disappear. Players at slots see their money disappear too. Slot players atleast have distractions with bonus rounds and dribbles but they keep seeing the humungous numbers in flashing lights and just about everyone seems to focus on the Super Duper Gigantic Payout.

The Firebet sells hope to the lottery-hypnotized masses. I don't think it offers real value, but even Bingo players are always "one number away" from Real Money.

Craps lectures? My Vietnamese Black Jack dealer keeps singing the praises of Even Money. He really believes it. I'm sure he has friends who give lectures on craps.

I think Im close to even with the Fire Bet. I played it when it first started at The Rio some years ago and I was at a table where one shooter hit all six ($5 was max bet back then) and I hit five numbers there, and four numbers several times.

I must admit that I have gone several trips without even a four number payout. But when you get four numbers ($10 = $250 pay) or 5 numbers as I did a couple of months ago ($10 = $2500 pay) you make up for the losing sessions quickly.

Also keep in mind that I don't play craps as much as I used to. Im more likely to spend time at video poker.

In all my years of playing craps, I have come away from the table with $5,000+ only four times in my life. And Ive had many more losing sessions than winning sessions and there is no question in my mind that I have lost the equivalent of a house playing craps over the years. I've always been a "smart player" avoiding the exotic bets, the hardways, never bet the field in my life, and I limit my horn bets to mostly an insurance bet on the come out. Almost always full odds, But no matter how smart you play it is still a negative expectation game and the best advice I ever heard about craps came from a dealer at Caesars who said "the more you play, the more you lose."

And this is why I now favor the limited action of the passline with the fire bet.

The big question is can I stick to that when I see a shooter make number after number? Well, that will be a good problem to have, wouldn't it?

If I'm at the Craps Table, I'm really not trying to win any serious money. I think I like the betting the Right Way now, even though I used to bet the Wrong Way. Again, I don't really make Come Bets, Place Bets, Press my Bets or any of that, so the Fire Bet represents basically the one chance I have to leave the table at more than +$100. If I get up to +$100 just making a $5.00 PL bet and backing it with $10 Taking Odds, then I've probably been there long enough that I've had my fun.

I'm also probably +$130-$150 after you factor in my toke rate, but if the boys make the game even more fun for me, they will be compensated!

Quote: FleaStiff

I would tend to agree on Player Ignorance, both overall and in relation to Craps, and also on an increasing tendency to look for Big Payoffs (a la Slot Machines) on these Fancy Craps Side Bets perhaps because of Lottery Conditioning wherein prizes are so humungous that sales tend to slack off at grand prizes of only a few million dollars.

I'm not sure that this is necessarily player ignorance. Once you have agreed to play with a negative edge, it may be logical to seek out as much variance as possible (depending on what your goals are).

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Once you have agreed to play with a negative edge, it may be logical to seek out as much variance as possible (depending on what your goals are).

Good point.
But remember variance works both ways.
As easy as it helps you to win, it can just as easily help you to lose.

AlanM and many others love the fire bet. Too bad it is not on every table.
and Ahigh about the high 20%HE of the Fire bet
made me dig up these numbers.


I Agree most math folks will laugh at those making a 20% HE wager.
That is because they only consider HE and EV and
forget about variance or even the entertainment and THRILL factor of making these high EV and SD wagers.

Most gamblers bet what they have and do not use casino credit at the tables.

So let us say 3 million players have enough bankroll to make X bets.
One million only bets on the Hard6
One million on the Firebet
Another One million on the Don't Pass/Don't Come
Same size wagers
(We know there is a very low max bet for the fire bet)
Compare 9%, 20% and 1.36% HE bets

after 2,000 wagers
-1 unit or more (being in the hole)
Hard6: 91.410380%
Fire Bet: 74.350648%
Don't: 72.814682%
Out of 1 million of these type players on average about 250,000-270,000 show a profit from the DP and FB.
Better than 1 in 4.
The Hard6 players are in a deep hole

Let's keep playing and betting...
after 6,000 wagers (about 51,000+ rolls for the FB player)
-1 unit or more (being in the hole)
Hard6: 99.176722% ouch!
Fire Bet: 83.636773%
Don't: 85.651203%

Hey! The FB overtook the Don't Pass bet
Still about 163,633 show a FB profit after 6k such bets.
More than the best HE bet on the table the Don't Pass (not including the odds bet)
The crossover point is just below 4k bets.

So the Fire bet after 6,000 wagers (and a lot of dice rolls)
has a better chance of showing a profit than just the Don't Pass.
Now what bet is the sucker bet??

But AlanM and many others, also adds the pass line bets with odds.
That would add another 15,000 or so bets (to go with the 6k FBs)
but with a good 35% chance of showing a profit from 345X odds on the pass/odds by itself.

But anyone can make anything look good... even dog sh*t
The downside is one can easily lose more making the high ev/sd wagers.
But think of the entertainment factor!

Not everyone can be the casino.

Part of the appeal of the fire bet to me is that it is a cheap way to stay in the game and have a little action even if there is someone shooting who seems to be a PSO machine. I may not want to bet a pass line bet with odds on him, but what is $1 on the fire bet? It is like taking a shot at a lottery quick pick, and I treat it as such.

I don't know if they have them in Vegas, but there is a NC craps table with the fire bet at Sam's Town in Shreveport. The fire bet pays off after only 3 separate points hit. Unfortunately, they don't have a payout for ten separate points. I think they could make that at 10000 to 1, and still not worry about ever paying it.

Quote: 7craps

I Agree most math folks will laugh at those making a 20% HE wager.
That is because they only consider HE and EV and
forget about variance or even the entertainment and THRILL factor of making these high EV and SD wagers.

You are describing the Wizard, it's HE only with him. So he allows you to keep posting? [g]

The most entertaining players for me to watch are the smug ones who feel they know a whole lot and then proceed to have their domain of possible outcomes expanded due to negative variance that they didn't anticipate because they were focusing on minimizing the house edge with much more exposure to losses.

If this were a website about driving fast in cars, I would make the analogy that people are encouraging driving in states with the lowest penalties for speeding and driving as fast as possible to get the most thrill for the smallest speeding ticket.

The analogy being that it's the crash, not the ticket, that is the really expensive part of the game.

I probably spend a large multiple of my edge on gasoline and vehicle maintenance to get to the casino. But that doesn't go into the calculator, and neither does the opportunity cost of my lazy ass being at the casino fucking around instead of being more productive selling shit on E-bay, licking stamps, or whatever other menial labor could net me $30/hour with a ton of elbow grease applied to it.

But both of those are bigger than the house edge on any bets I make.

Just saying, there are other things than NOT taking 1.41% house edge down to 0.184% by using 10x odds that end up losing your money .. even in the long term.

It's an absolute certainty that luck trumps all when theory turns to practice.

It may be less of a certainty, but anything other than luck that gets you money can easily beat out knocking your edge down by 1.2% by increasing your exposure.

Exhibit A: I won $800 playing video roulette in 2011 without putting a single dollar into the machine, and without even technically gambling. $18 on red, $18 on black, and $1 on zero -- all house's money -- gimme money. That reduced my edge without adding any risk at all. It's absolutely part of my routine. And it's no secret either since I have a really big mouth.

The casinos generally feed me too. Also not on the calculator, but absolutely factors into reducing the edge.

Quote: odiousgambit

You are describing the Wizard, it's HE only with him. So he allows you to keep posting? [g]

Naw.
The Wizard in many columns shows how to calculate EV and SD (variance) and how to use those results.
I learned from his writings.
But not always.
I think he picks out some answers to be very short since he reads the same Qs many, many times from those that ask him Qs.

I just showed in an earlier post that a 20% HE bet (the Fire Bet)
after 6,000 wagers has a way better chance of showing a profit than a 9% HE bet
and even pulls ahead of a 1.36% HE bet.

The HE and EV pushers, includes most all IMO, will never believe it
because
they
fail
to
see
any
value
in
variance

and for some players, including AlanM, entertainment value is way more FUN than just the lowest HE and losing the least,
even at the risk of losing more making those higher ev/sd bets.

Most are still cry babies after losing big $$$s making way too many lifetime high HE wagers.

AlanM even admits how much he has lost and wants to change that.
IMO, I do not think a lifetime Place bettor can just make Pass/Odds and Fire bets only.
He will be back to his inside or across bets soon.
It is how the other players and Dealers want you to play.
And the first time he sits out a 25+ roll hand with only 2 Horns thrown and one point winner, he will return to the Place bettor fold.

to add
My opening bet is a $4 hopping hardway bet most times.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I've always been a "smart player" avoiding the exotic bets,
the hardways,
never bet the field in my life,
and I limit my horn bets to mostly an insurance bet on the come out.
Almost always full odds,
But no matter how smart you play it is still a negative expectation game ...

Never a Field Bet??
Even with 2x and 3X payout?

The Field wins 16/36 (4 out of 9) or 44.44% of the time
A Place6 or 8 wins 5/11 or 45.45% of the time
Not much of a difference

IMO, Undo your tie, roll up you sleeves, grab the wife and make a few Field bets.
I was just at Primm Valley and watched a 20 something male go all-in with a $20 in the field. I am sure you too have seen those types.
and after 12 rolls (8 in a row Field hits) cashed out $540 while us place bettors watched the 7out wipe out our Place6&8 that never hit one time.
And the only 2 females at the table made about $100 each on the Field bets.
Us Place bettors just smiled and cussed out the fuc*in shooter for that sequence of rolls.

Good Luck staying with your new bet strategy

Quote: Ahigh

The most entertaining players for me to watch are the smug ones who feel they know a whole lot and then proceed to have their domain of possible outcomes expanded due to negative variance that they didn't anticipate because they were focusing on minimizing the house edge with much more exposure to losses.

Obviously, if reducing the house edge opens you up to more losses, then it's not clear that you should do it. This applies to other games too. There might be a $100 blackjack game with better rules than the $10 game, but, if you can't afford to play $100 blackjack, you shouldn't play it.

BUT -- betting well above the table minimum on the pass or come and not taking odds makes little sense. You could get the same amount of action (ie, not be exposed to greater losses) AND have a lower HE by making smaller pass/come bets and taking odds.

Back to the blackjack analogy, if you only want to bet $10/hand, it makes sense to play at the $10 table even if the $100 table has better rules. But, it doesn't make much sense to play at the $10 table for $100/hand when you can just get up, walk to a different pit, play for the same stakes, and cut your long-term losses in half.

Quote: Ahigh

The most entertaining players for me to watch are the smug ones who feel they know a whole lot and then proceed to have their domain of possible outcomes expanded due to negative variance that they didn't anticipate because they were focusing on minimizing the house edge with much more exposure to losses.

You have been watching me play a lot. :P

I'm doing a new strategy for craps. Table minimum pass/come and max odds is just too much exposure. The variance is going to overwhelm any chance you have of realizing the house edge.

I'm contemplating a new strategy of just playing $3 tables and making constant pass/come bets. I'll mess around with the odds, taking them up or down, pressing them, etc. Just anything to avoid full-out exposure right away. On a $5 table I'll do "5x6x10x" odds which is working well for me.