UltimateHoldem
UltimateHoldem
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January 18th, 2012 at 5:37:25 AM permalink
I was playing in the "VIP" lounge at Fallsview last night. 6D/S17/DAT/DAS/Max 4 Splits.I Was playing the $100 minimum alone for a while until another guy got a 100k marker and began playing 5k a hand. We both played perfect BS and it was back and forth for about a half hour of playing.

Then on one hand the other guy gets dealt 4/4 against a dealer 6. He puts up his second 5k and the dealer quickly splits his 4's and gives him an Ace on his first 4, A/4. Me and the dealer both waited for him to put up the next 5k for a double down. He said to the dealer he didn't want the 4's split, he wanted to double. The dealer calls the supervisor over and explains the situation and he analyzed the table and nodded to her and walked off. She put his 4's back together and the Ace on top, 19. Play resumed and dealer busted.

About 20 minutes later (after a dealer change) the same situation comes up, 4/4 vs dealer 6. Again he puts up his 5k and the dealer splits again, again an Ace comes. Same story twice here. Pit boss comes over and lets it slide again, but tells the dealer to please wait for hand signals, and he nodded in agreement. Dealer busted again FWIW.

The point of my longer than it probably needed to be story is what is the correct play here? After seeing it a couple times I began pondering what was in fact the optimal play. Stick with the double down or double again and play out the rest of the cards?

I've played over 200k Blackjack hands in my short time and I couldn't for the life of me figure out what I would do, I kept teetering back and forth on what decision I would make. Maybe to some guys the answer is obvious but I still have no idea.

An answer from the math people, please...
P90
P90
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:08:53 AM permalink
Duh. The answer is obvious:
Basic Strategy

Split 44 against 5 or 6, and never double on 8 in a non-counted shoe game anyway.

Don't forget, BTW, that if the dealer busts anyway, the guy could've made 1.5 times more money by doubling after split on one of the hands. The hands with an ace specifically.
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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:11:12 AM permalink
I used the Wizard's BJ calculators found here:
http://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/strategy/calculator/

I could not find any combination of rules where you would ever double on any 8, regardless of the dealer's up card.

Additionally, you always split 4s when the dealer is showing a 5 or 6. Otherwise, hit. NOT DOUBLE!
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:13:59 AM permalink
Also, I'd wonder where he placed his chips for the "double". Was it next to the original bet, or was there room between the bets?

Although hand signals are prefered, the former is typical for a double. The latter is a split.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:21:23 AM permalink
Quote: UltimateHoldem

The point of my longer than it probably needed to be story is what is the correct play here? After seeing it a couple times I began pondering what was in fact the optimal play. Stick with the double down or double again and play out the rest of the cards?

I missed this part of the question.

The correct play is to split. And then double the soft 15.


HOWEVER...

Are you asking if the correct play is, after splitting and getting the ace, to play out the hand or to try to convince the pit that you had intended to double?

There's no way to deny it, but that would be cheating.

And I would elevate it as being much more severe than merely keeping your mouth shut when a dealer make a mistake and pays on a hand that pushed (or push a loser, etc.)
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
UltimateHoldem
UltimateHoldem
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:31:20 AM permalink
Obviously I know to split 4's against a dealer 6. In most cases however you don't know that your card will be an Ace for 19. My whole question was aimed at the decision after it was dealt.
boymimbo
boymimbo
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:41:32 AM permalink
The player was getting away with a cheat. The casino likely lets him get away with it as the player likely loses a ton of money anyway in the Prive. I'd be calling upstairs after the first cheat, and disallowing the 2nd if the 1st was indeed a cheat (clear hand signal to split).

The Salon Prive dealer hopefully are the best in the bunch.
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teddys
teddys
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:45:09 AM permalink
I agree. He was gaming the system. Would only work with 4,4 ... since that's the only hand where there is a reasonable probability that you would want to double instead of split. (NOBODY splits 5,5).

DJ, you do double on 8 (incl. 4-4) against a 5, 6 in single deck games where you cannot double after split. The difference between doubling and splitting is small, and can change depending on what the count is. In a six deck game, the difference in E.V. is .103 vs. .168 for doubling vs. splitting. Of course, if you knew the next card was an Ace, obviously you would say double instead of split.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
P90
P90
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:51:11 AM permalink
Quote: UltimateHoldem

Obviously I know to split 4's against a dealer 6. In most cases however you don't know that your card will be an Ace for 19. My whole question was aimed at the decision after it was dealt.


They did burn (discard) the cards that were dealt after the split, didn't they? Or did they actually put it back in play as if he doubled with same exact cards?

In the latter case he would know dealer's next card exactly (being his second split card).
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UltimateHoldem
UltimateHoldem
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January 18th, 2012 at 6:54:36 AM permalink
lol I guess my question wasn't well documented during my initial post. I know you split 4's against a 6. I know he was cheating. I don't care. Neither did the Casino.

Pretty sure the guy could get away with anything, short of taking a shit on the middle of the table.

So teddys is saying that the optimal play AFTER THE FACT is to double, not split.


Thank you, that's all I was asking for.

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