Is Counting Cheating?

Quote: Paigowdan

I know how things work in this town.

If thats true, then quit the BS. Nobody believes casinos
love winners, nobody believes card counting is dead,
nobody believes nobody is making money at it. You're
in the business so you WANT people to believe all of
it. Casinos loathe AP's, there aren't enough holes in
the desert for them, as far as the casino is concerned.
And with the economy in the tank, the number of
AP's is growing by leaps and bounds. But the casino
loves winners, what do they care... LOL!

Quote: thecesspit

I doubt there is any rule of blackjack that says players can not count cards. Because it seems there is no rule book for the game of blackjack in the casino.

What cracks me up is, there are so many dealers and pit
people now who can count cards, and when they're not
working, they're in some other casino COUNTING CARDS!
Its only evil and cheating and a crime while they're working,
apparently.

I always thought counting cards was not worth it anymore because all the BJ game rules have become lousy that it is no longer worth doing to make any serious kind of profit. I recall reading on the WOO site that in the best situation (that does no longer exist in terms of game rules) that counting will yield a 2% player advantage. If you were betting $100 a hand and played for 8 hours that would be approximately $960 a day, good money but it would take a massive bank roll to ride the ups and downs. I always thought that in a negative expectation game one can never become positive in the long run. Lately when I play BJ and count cards I play with nickels and just do it for fun altering my bet between $5-$25, but these last few trips I would have a count of +4 or so in a SD game, and I would still lose, it happens. So to the original question I don't think counting is cheating, it is just playing smarter, but it is not something someone could make a serious living off of. Do it for fun, as one should do with any gambling game, just play for fun.

To all,
No, I'm not upset. Believe me, I love this thread and threads like this. I love hashing it out, and discussing and debating gaming.
now..to get to some stuff:

Quote: thecesspit

Which assumes there is another rule that says "counting cards is not allowed", and defines card counting to some degree. I suspect you've pulled it out of your butt. This is all people are asking for... what -states- precisely that a played MAY NOT COUNT CARDS at blackjack and alter their behaviour based on a history they can recall.

No - it's been policy at every Nevada casino I've worked at.

Let me ask you cesspit - have you ever worked at a real Nevada casino, or tried to count cards to the point of making some real money, and had gotten away with it?
I don't believe you had, and that you're pulling things out of your butt.
Because I work full time at a real Nevada casino, and had designed some real casino games that has some real installs.
Now you post some of your real-life card counting experience, to speak of your authority.

I think Switch said it very finely - you can no longer make money card counting in the day and age.

Quote: Paigowdan

I think Switch said it very finely - you can no longer make money card counting in the day and age.

Somebody should tell the BJ community, they
apparently haven't caught on yet. Read some
of the blogs and forums, they're still making
money. Maybe you should clue them in.

Quote: FinsRule

Dan, I know you're upset, and I don't want to upset you any further, but I do have 2 serious questions for you:

1. Let's say I'm counting cards, and flat betting. The count is so heavily in my favor that when asked by a dealer "Would you like insurance?" I take insurance. Now, I'm counting and know that I have an advantage, because I have been keeping track of all the cards that have been dealt and am using that information to influence my bet. I never take insurance except if I have this big of an advantage. Am I cheating?

Again, I live for these discussions. I am exhasperated at some of the denseness at the board, though!
No, you're not cheating - and JESUS, how many times do I have to tell you idiots that a casino can back you off or expel you for any reasons that they see fit? NOT CHEATING, but BECAUSE THE PIT BOSS FEELS THAT IT IS CALLED FOR??!!
If they THINK you are card counting - not cheating mind you - they can just flat bet you, or back you off a game because the pit boss just wants to??!!
And NO - don't post some ridiculous argument like -"but dude, like what if I'm black or overweight with Chinese eyes or some sshit like that???!!!"

Quote: fINSRIULE

2. I buy in for $100. I'm betting $10 a hand. I lose 5 hands in a row, and I'm down $50. In that time, the count has gotten slightly good. Barely worth betting more for. I'm not having fun at the casino, the dealer is being a jerk, and it's smoky, and I just want to go home. I'd like to break even. Is it cheating if I just put the last $50 out there, or do I need to get up from that table, and go to a different table to bet the $50?

No, you're not cheating - and a pit boss wouldn't back you off because doubled up on you last money. For $50 on one bet? Nope! Clearly, this has nothing to do with a long card counting session, a serious session that you people wouldn't know from card counting if Stanford Wong or Max Rubin or Ian Anderson sat next to you!

But JESUS, how many times do I have to tell you idiots that a casino can back you off or expel you for any reasons that they see fit? NOT CHEATING, but BECAUSE THE PIT BOSS FEELS THAT IT IS CALLED FOR??!!

Please people, memorize the following:
CARD COUNTING IS SIMPLY DEAD AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
YOU CANNOT MAKE A FUCKING DIME FROM IT - NO LESS A CAREER OR EVEN A PASTTIME TO BRAG ABOUT - EXCEPT HERE.
IT IS NOT REAL GAMBLING IF THE CASINO THROWS YOU OUT FOR IT - AND THEY CAN AND WILL.
THEY WILL THROW YOU OUT FOR WASTING YOUR TIME - NOT ONLY THEIRS.
IT IS NOT REAL ADVANCEMENT IN GAMING, IT IS ANCIENT.
LEARN POKER
LEARN DICE
LEARN PAI GOW
LEARN ANOTHER FREAKING GAME
LEARN HOW TO DESIGN A NEW CASINO GAME AND SELL IT
LEARN HOW TO DEAL
IF YOU COUNT CARDS, SHOW US THE MONEY, OR GET A LIFE

If they THINK you are card counting - not cheating mind you - they can just flat bet you, or back you off a game because the pit boss just wants to!
And NO - don't post some ridiculous argument like -"but dude, like what if I'm black or overweight with Chinese eyes or some shit like that???!!!"

Quote: Paigowdan

To all,
No, I'm not upset. Believe me, I love this thread and threads like this. I love hashing it out, and discussing and debating gaming.
now..to get to some stuff:

No - it's been policy at every Nevada casino I've worked at.

Let me ask you cesspit - have you ever worked at a real Nevada casino, or tried to count cards to the point of making some real money, and had gotten away with it?
I don't believe you had, and that you're pulling things out of your butt.
Because I work full time at a real Nevada casino, and had designed some real casino games that has some real installs.
Now you post some of your real-life card counting experience, to speak of your authority.

I have never worked in a Nevada casino, nor have I counted cards to make money.

But this fails to see the point I have made repeatedly. POLICY is not a rule of the game of blackjack. Policy is how the casino chooses to run it's operations. I'll state it again : good for them. They can run their house however they like, and if they think they've detected a card counter and want to back them off... fine.

I only questioned originally where is the RULE in the GAME of BLACKJACK that I may not make decisions based on the cards I have seen from the deck.

That's it. That's all I have been asking for. Not if it's a policy to bar people doing it every casino in the world. Not if it's lawful or legal or allowable, or if it's like grabbing the waitress. Not even if it's profitable to do so. People do all sorts of things that aren't profitable.

If it's just how the casino runs it's games... fine, no problem. However, if it's just how they decide to organize their operations and NOT A FUNDAMENTAL RULE OF THE GAME, I see nothing morally wrong in me counting cards, and I see nothing morally wrong in the casino asking me to leave if they detect (or think they detect) that I am counting cards, or otherwise basing a decision on previous cards.

That my position. I really don't see why you've decided that I have to have years of experience of it. It was a question about the rules of the game. Much like the rules of Monopoly actually state you auction of properties people don't buy, and don't have a rule to put $500 under free parking.

If the standard rules of blackjack said every game was independent, then fine, cool, great, card counting breaks the rules, I understand your position. I am more than happy to be shown where I am wrong... show me a rule book, show me a website describing the game of blackjack. If it's there, then great. That was my original question, that's all I have asked for.

PS : Maybe my naivety is simply believing there should be a rule book for the games (much like a previous discussion on the house way for Pai Gow Poker and Tiles) and am shocked that there really isn't. I deal with bad rule books a lot, and it's a bug bear of mine in a minor corner of small industry.

This is the wonderful world of working in a casino:

75% of casino employees identified stress as a significant cause of job dissatisfaction.

50% of surveyed casino workers reported "a lot" to "moderate" stress. 15% of occupational claims are stress related.

Professionals estimate that stress is the major contributor to most health problems.

Alcohol, excessive eating, gambling and drugs are "stress management" strategies of choice by many casino employees.

25% of all surveyed casino managers believe Anger is an acceptable management strategy.

Almost 25% of a recent nationwide poll indicated that casino employees are angry and resentful with their much of their work.

This is the fantastic world of casino employment. A
sad state of affairs.

Quote: Paigowdan

They Do! Have you been reading this board??
People get flat betted all the time, and complain about it here.

That's not what I am talking about. Not flatbetting people one-by-one when they are winning, but just post a table max equal to table min, and be done with it.

Quote:

CSM machines are all over the place, - and becoming more popular to end this counting B.S. - not that it works.

Are they? Never seen one on a high-limit table (which would be a logical place to look for counters). I see them usually at the $5 min tables, and I think, the reason they put them there is not counting, but just to increase the speed of the game to make it worth dealer's time.

Quote:

(Well, it does in the movies) We have countless THREADS here at this board, usually along the nature of "How the hell can I count a CSM machine, too?" just recently.

Yes, there are plenty of threads, but the answer is always the same - you can't do that. I don't know what you are talking about when you say it does not work. A card counter beating a CSM game is a story as credible as that about a dice-setter of roulette "professional".

Quote:

No they don't. Casinos DO play by the rules, and expect players to do so also, and counting is a known "malfeasance" rule violation, a no-go, and if you claim ignorance of that to say "oh! I didn't know that!" then you are lying.

No, I do not claim ignorance. I claim that I know there is no such rule. If you want to prove me wrong, show me the official document stating that counting is against the rules. The fact that casino does not want me to count cards is not the same as the rule of the game forbidding it. Don't tell me I am not playing by the rules unless you can demonstrate the particular rule I am violating.

Quote:

What??!! Casinos have never counted cards...are you going to claim

You did not read my post ... I did not imply that casinos count cards (although, you are wrong about that too, and know full well, that sometimes they do just that, and reshuffle when the count goes high).
What I said was that casinos do not want to use CSM, or to set table max close enough to the min, or to even simply officially post the rule forbidding the counting, because they are trying to have it both ways. Most people who think they can count, really cannot. They will make mistakes and loose (much) more than they otherwise would. If the counting would impossible, the casino would win less from those people.
So, they are trying to eat the cake and have it too. If you are counting and loosing, you are welcomed and comped, and if you are counting and winning, you are flatbetted and backed off.
What I am saying is, if they really do not want me to count, they can make a game not countable, that is easy, and well within their power. But as long as they are not doing that, hoping to profit on unskilled counters, the message essentially is that counting is fair game.

Quote:

Quote: weaselman

Dan, I know a guy, who does "counting" kinda subconsciously, kinda at the same level you would notice that "lots of aces are out", only with a lot higher precision. He cannot tell you exactly what the true count is at any given moment, he just knows when to raise his bet, and when to sit out. Would you call that unethical too? Does he have to literally ignore the information he has when playing in order to have good moral character in your book?

Ya know, I've answer THAT question a thousand times.
No - he does not. If the FLOOR supervision has no problem than neither do I, if his peanut-sized conscience does not either.

I don't understand what you are saying. "No he does not" seems to imply, that in your view, the guy is ok, but then "peanut-sized conscience" implies the exact opposite. Which is it really?
The floor supervision does have problems with him quite often by the way. But not because of his morals, just because he keeps winning.

Quote:

Again I should state:
CARD COUNTING IS SIMPLY DEAD AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
YOU CANNOT MAKE A FUCKING DIME FROM IT - NO LESS A CAREER OR EVEN A PASTTIME TO BRAG ABOUT - EXCEPT HERE.

I actually agree with you on that. Maybe its finally time for the casino to realize this as well, and stop sweating?

Quote: Paigowdan

I think Switch said it very finely - you can no longer make money card counting in the day and age.

Actually I said that there were more powerful methods than counting under the right conditions although I do think that it is more difficult in todays environment.

Quote: Paigowdan

Please people, memorize the following:
CARD COUNTING IS SIMPLY DEAD AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
YOU CANNOT MAKE A F------ DIME FROM IT - NO LESS A CAREER OR EVEN A PASTTIME TO BRAG ABOUT - EXCEPT HERE.
IT IS NOT REAL GAMBLING IF THE CASINO THROWS YOU OUT FOR IT - AND THEY CAN AND WILL.
THEY WILL THROW YOU OUT FOR WASTING YOUR TIME - NOT ONLY THEIRS.
IT IS NOT REAL ADVANCEMENT IN GAMING, IT IS ANCIENT.
LEARN POKER
LEARN DICE
LEARN PAI GOW
LEARN ANOTHER FREAKING GAME
LEARN HOW TO DESIGN A NEW CASINO GAME AND SELL IT
LEARN HOW TO DEAL
IF YOU COUNT CARDS, SHOW US THE MONEY, OR GET A LIFE

Dice: Lowest House Edge, .021%, in Vegas, realistically, .374% **Pass line w/ full odds ONLY
Pai Gow Tiles: Around .02% Banking, 1.88% Not Banking...
Pai Gow Poker: 1.46% Heads up, Banking/Not Banking, less with other players
EZ Pai Gow: 2.47%
Poker: Varies, but unless you're professional, you won't make money...

BLACKJACK: Single Deck, Favorable rules: .18%, 2.32% under the WORST RULES (i.e. Caesars Party Pit) Most tables between .6-.8% with proper basic strategy, no card counting involved.

Not to pick on you Dan, since you really seem to love this discussion, but you advocated players to learn other games that probably have a worse house edge than most games.

I'm not going to chime in either way about the card counting issue. I'm pretty sure AyeCarumba did it JUST to get a heated forum going. I'm really not sure your language choices are the best, Dan. They indicate to me a person who does not have the tact or the ability to communicate his thoughts in a professional manner. Yes, you're trying to make a point, but I don't find the use of the F-word to be very professional.

This is a forum where everybody is of age, so I won't flag your posts or make a big deal of it... but rest assured, your language choices are noted and to me, that says a bit about your character.

Edit: Decided to edit your F-ing comment, to make the point.

Quote: Paigowdan

What the fuck is the daffy post from EvenBob, with the color strips displaying undocumented claims aboput gaming industry workers?

Undocumented? They come from the Univ of Michigan, Dept of Behavioral Science.
You're just in denial, you think dealers actually like their jobs.

Dan - Thanks for calling me, and many others, idiots. Real nice. And, you say counting cards is cheating. But only if you do it over a long session. One hand of counting apparently doesn't make you a cheater. And counting insurance bets doesn't either...

I think everyone understands that casinos can and have every right to refuse your bet. I think what people get upset about, is you calling them a cheater. Customers don't like being called cheaters.

When I worked at Toys R Us, if someone gave me an expired coupon, I said "Sorry, this coupon is expired" Not, YOU'RE A CHEATER, YOU'RE SCUM.

If you think I'm counting just say "Sorry, it seems like you're counting, please play Pai Gow" And I'll say "If you don't want me to play BJ, I won't play anymore." Calling me a cheater and an idiot, not so nice.

Quote: Paigowdan

If they THINK you are card counting - not cheating mind you - they can just flat bet you,...

Earlier in thread ::

Quote: Paigowdan

Blackjack Counting is indeed considered cheating by "Casino house rules"

Quote: Ayecarumba

Is counting cards in blackjack cheating the House?

If you are using a computer to aid you in counting cards then it is cheating. If you are using your own skill then it is not cheating. The house may ask you to back off because it is good business practice and they have the legal right to refuse to do business with you. But the house should never treat you like a cheat.

A business can refuse to deal with any person for their own reason, as long as they are not practicing discrimination based on sex, race, or ethnicity. The casino is just practicing their legal right. But it is not because the person is a cheat.

I think I have only seen one other person comment on what to me is the most obvious part of this discussion.
To paraphrase;
"Card counting does not work. It is dead, and people who try it, can't and don't win."

If that were truly the case, this thread would not be 7 pages long. Because, if that were a true statement, there would be no action taken by casinos against suspected card counters. Why would you take action against someone who has no advantage against your casino? You wouldn't. By virtue of the fact that the casino does in fact look for it, and take action against those suspected of it, the above statement can be determined to be a falsehood.

However, I'm not sure I see the point in forcing this issue into a "where is it written that I cannot count cards". What is the best that can come out of this? The casino puts it in writing? Now what? End result is still the same. They ask you to not play, or leave, basing their request on apparently how belligerent you become. Or, the casino decides none of this is worth it and just converts every BJ game to CSM. There, that will certainly show the casino a thing or two.??????

It's all about choices people. I QUICKLY set dice on occasion (I don't believe ANYONE can influence the dice when they are correctly hitting the back wall) but it makes me feel good for my money that is on the table. If I am playing some place that is so ignorant that they hassle anyone who sets dice they will never see another dime in action from me. I CHOOSE to go play someplace else. No point in creating a scene or arguing about it. It is their game and they can run it as they see fit. Why they would choose to chase away a player with money in his/her pocket is beyond me. If it was my casino though, the box, or pit, or whoever was responsible would be looking for work.

While I don't agree with Dan that counting is cheating, I do see his point that every aspect of how a game is run does not need to be written on a billboard at the door.

I WANT DAN TO POST THE RULE HE SAYS I AM VIOLATING BY COUNTING WITH MY BRAIN> DAN ACCUSED ME OF CHEATING BECAUSE I VIOLATED THIS NON_EXISTENT RULE.

QUOTE THE RULE OR APOLOGIZE

Paco has once again added reason to the state of insanity.



WELL, DAN !!

I assume the WIZ is a cheater also by your definition. Have you no shame ??

It seems like there are a lot of attempts to come up with analogies that would clarify why card counting is not cheating or is cheating? Some are pretty ridiculous like stabbing smoeone or carrying tupperware into a buffet, some are pretty good like trying to memorize a movie. To me a casino telling me I can't try and count cards is like our annual faculty versus 8th grade basketball game at the parish school. I try to convince the principal every year that we should try to win so that the kids would be challenged and if they did win (and they are pretty good some years) it is a real win. She says we shouldn't try that hard and we should let the kids win every year. I feel like the casino is the principal telling me that I shouldn't try that hard to win, just have fun, and take your losing like a man. For me the fun is trying my best to win but accepting the loss that could come my way if the ball doesn't bounce my way or I don't get the right cards. Please note I am not advocating kicking the kids or putting poision in their gatorade, just using our talents (or lack therof) to make it a real game. Play by the rules, don't cheat, try your hardest, and rejoice in playing the game - the same thing should happen at the BJ tables as the basketball court.

@ thecesspit - I get what you're saying (I think), that you're looking for something concrete and not opinion. Not a discussion on philosophy, or character, or morals, or whatever, but black and white. I cannot speak for LV, but here in NY I have access to Dealer, Floor Supervisor, TG Manager, Director of TG, Surveillance, and Casino Manager's training material, the Gaming Compact from NY, just about every legal, procedural and training document concerning the operation of Class III Gaming in NYS. In none of these does it say "Card counting is cheating, illegal or against the rules". Is that what you were looking for?

Counting, however, IS grouped with actual cheating (marking, crimping, cutting, shaving) in the book of stuff to prevent and look out for. It goes without saying (and I think you know this) that counting is just one of those things that are "against the rules" as far as casino management is concerned. You won't ever in life end up in court for counting in NYS, in other words. As always, I can only speak for NYS on this matter.

Quote: Face

You won't ever in life end up in court for counting...

What about if I "JDLR"? Will they throw the book at me? :P I couldn't resist.

Quote: Face

@ thecesspit - I get what you're saying (I think), that you're looking for something concrete and not opinion. Not a discussion on philosophy, or character, or morals, or whatever, but black and white. I cannot speak for LV, but here in NY I have access to Dealer, Floor Supervisor, TG Manager, Director of TG, Surveillance, and Casino Manager's training material, the Gaming Compact from NY, just about every legal, procedural and training document concerning the operation of Class III Gaming in NYS. In none of these does it say "Card counting is cheating, illegal or against the rules". Is that what you were looking for?

Counting, however, IS grouped with actual cheating (marking, crimping, cutting, shaving) in the book of stuff to prevent and look out for. It goes without saying (and I think you know this) that counting is just one of those things that are "against the rules" as far as casino management is concerned. You won't ever in life end up in court for counting in NYS, in other words. As always, I can only speak for NYS on this matter.

Dan, would it have been so hard to do what Face did and answer the question factually? Let it go. Thanks Face, I think both sides knew that this was precisely the answer and I appreciate you taking the time to provide it.

Quote: Face

@ thecesspit - I get what you're saying (I think), that you're looking for something concrete and not opinion. Not a discussion on philosophy, or character, or morals, or whatever, but black and white. I cannot speak for LV, but here in NY I have access to Dealer, Floor Supervisor, TG Manager, Director of TG, Surveillance, and Casino Manager's training material, the Gaming Compact from NY, just about every legal, procedural and training document concerning the operation of Class III Gaming in NYS. In none of these does it say "Card counting is cheating, illegal or against the rules". Is that what you were looking for?

Counting, however, IS grouped with actual cheating (marking, crimping, cutting, shaving) in the book of stuff to prevent and look out for. It goes without saying (and I think you know this) that counting is just one of those things that are "against the rules" as far as casino management is concerned. You won't ever in life end up in court for counting in NYS, in other words. As always, I can only speak for NYS on this matter.

Exactly. And that's exactly the position I'd expect the casino to take : we don't like it and will prevent it if we can.


Thanks.

Casinos in Vegas have provided optimal strategy games over 100% (at times), and some still do.

While I understand from a profit margin why they would not want counters where bets can be much larger because the game doesn't control very well for limiting size of bet, so keeping counting down to minimum whether from the design of game or threat of removal makes some sense.

If casinos are saying they are operating on two different motives they are merely inconsistent ( which is the same as wrong), but I'm pretty sure the potential losses from an old standard game of single deck BJ is enough of a reason to hamper counting by various strategies.

It's pretty much the same reason there's not large denomination full pay video poker on the casino floor. It's just that there, they've done it by downsizing what's available, installed tighter margins, given us more difficult games to play, or slowed the speed of the machines against rapid play.

No problem, cess and NightFly. Just hoping to kind of simmer things down a bit. It's funny, though, that you brought up a "rule book". I've though long and hard about this and the only thing I can think of on the players side as far as a "rule book" goes comes in the form of the writing on the layout. S17, split Ace, BJ pays 3-2, etc. Even on the Dealer's side I'm hard pressed to come up with examples. Excluding "procedures" like how you present the cards and how you break down payments, the only "rules" I can recall as being "in a book" is "Don't allow patrons to touch cards" and "No barber pole bets". Maybe I can't think of any because I'm missing the point of the convo, or because it's 3am, but I'm sure someone will set me right if that's the case.


In Dan's defense, I think I understand his point even if I don't entirely agree. How I interpret his opinion is that BJ has a way to be played, and counting is not part of it. Thorpe made it part of it, but it's not truely part of it as it wasn't made that way. It's funny, because my terrible analogy to this is the Wizard's traffic bet. His friend used "Skill", used "her brain", "outsmarted the Wiz" and "won" the bet. A great many people called that cheating, and I was one of the more vocal of that bunch. There was no rule book, no rules at all as far as I could tell, but many of us called that "cheating". It was playing outside of the box the game was designed in. Maybe Dan can confirm or deny, but to me, this is how I interpret what he's saying.

I was passionately against the friend of Wiz, yet am fine with counting. I wonder why that is....?

Quote: Face

I was passionately against the friend of Wiz, yet am fine with counting. I wonder why that is....?

Because counting is already on the table, we know where
both sides stand on it.

Quote: Paigowdan

Cesspit,
We don't refuse, but we cannot have the entire Oxford Dictionary of Common Law and three copies of the Consitustion ready to display on many matters that concern
If you rode a public transit bus or subway, and for some reason - and out of the blue - you stabbed the passenger NEXT TO YOU in the brain with a ice-pick, would you say to the arresting officer:

"You cannot arrest me for this! I DEMAND that you SHOW me the "Transit Police house rules for behavior" - on a public transport system!"
Followed by:
Aha! So - You cannot! [show the printed rules!] So - I got you now! - You SEE! .... I am INNOCENT!!!

No, you're not innocent. But this is the false argument that many players make. If you've gone through the trouble to learn card counting, then you also

But you are right. In gaming, we cannot assume that our players have indeed had any sort of home training, and the "Show me the house rules or let me go" is something that we frequently hear.
About two years ago, we hired a beautiful new cocktail waitress of Thai decent. "Alex." She had one hell of a chip rack, so to speak, a knock out. A real cutie, and a great waitress who could handle a large floor area. Okay.

So one day, she's the pit waitress when I'm dealing Pai Gow Poker. (Actually, that Excellent game, EZ Pai Gow poker...) She comes and delivers a tray of drinks to the pit area, and drops off drinks at my Pai gow table. Everyone gives her a $1 white chip, but one guy reaches into her BRA to give her the tip - with his hand on her boob! WTF! She freezes up, and shit I frooze, and the floorman is yelling "HEY! ASSHOLE! WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING??!! (He didn't freeze).

This male player kind of woke up, and saw himself with his hand in her bra and on her breat - in a casino, and pulled it out. Like nothing was wrong at all. (Kind of like casino cheats and card counters, and I say this describing them as separate catagories.) And the cocktail waitres, she did not drop her tray. Nor did she hit him with it. She just froze. In fact, I am ashamed of myself, because I just froze. And every player at the table also just froze. I guess this is why so many people die in house fires, even in a single-story ranch-style home, because people just lock up and freeze up when they are shocked and paniced.)

So the floorman (Bill) is there, and a security guard is behind the table (Rodney), and the floorman is leaning deep into the table, staring at the male player like he was from the planet Mars. And he says, "What the fuck do you think you were doing, asshole?" (This is a direct quote, that the sentence he said. just that.)

So the player snaps to, and says, "You listen - Show me where...where...where it is written...written..."
And Bill the floorman says "Written WHAT, asshole, our procedure manuals?? That you can do whatever the fuck you want at a casino because you are not at a fucking Mass??" Metro Police will write this shit up for your fucking lawyer to see..." (Wow...Talk about a floorman, he doesn't miss a beat! Love him!)

Anyway, guy leaves the table wih security escort saying "Jesus, I didn't know what happened, I didn't know what got into me..." I resume the game seeing HALF the table take-and-paid, taking a miunute to continue on where I left off. No charges or incident resulted, and the cocktail waitress let it slide (she told me on a break and as a friend, "Next time there will BE a SCENE...")

and the floorman is like "Jesus, Danny, what the fuck, do I have to tell you about some of these shit-bag, no good, lying, cheating, good-for-nothing, sack-of-stinking shit dirt-bag gamblers - who should be beaten to death in a dark alleyway...with metal pipes...yes, with lead pipes...like the Vitagliano murders....or something like that...anyway, just forget about it...go tap in on stick (craps) after your break, because you're on dice after this break...clock out at 3AM...you've been in this business long enough, you've seen shit like this...just go call some dice and clock out...."

...too often...

But what caught me was the male player, when confronted with his hand on a cocktail waitresses breast, he said "Where is it WRITTEN WHERE...."
1. I can't cheat.
2. I can't molest a cocktail waitress.
3. I can't count cards ...
4. I can't do xxx...to...I can't do xxx #11,946
Huh?
Since when do we need to show gamblers the Stone Tablets of The Ten Commandments to justify something like a slot cheat "Where is it wriiten in the Bible or your own procedure manuals that I cannot insert a bent coat hanger into a slot machine to make it pay out....."

In the face of this gambling player insanity, - do you see WHY I defend my casino employer at work - or on this board?

I'm one of the few dealers/floormen/game designers on this board,

because I'm just asking for more punishment.

For defending the gaming industry, I am called a zealot.

So the Fiesta Henderson has dealers who can't stand the very people who pay their salaries and has at least one who calls some of them cheaters on an internet forum. Floorman Bill and security guard Rodney can't handle one drunk without swearing, name calling and screaming in front of the other patrons. What are the "house rules" on allowing a drunk to continue playing while blacking out? Finally, what did the casino do for that innocent woman who was sexually assaulted? Nothing?

Note to the Fertitta brothers: If these are the kinds of people you hire and if this is how you run your casinos, I will not patronize them and I urge others not to. You are being cast in a very bad light.

Quote: Face

How I interpret his opinion is that BJ has a way to be played, and counting is not part of it. Thorpe made it part of it, but it's not truely part of it as it wasn't made that way.

Counting went on way before Thorpe. All he did was open up a whole lot of eyes to it.

No - we're great with people. I stated countless times we give a player a break on an innocent error (new player not meaning to hit, a player mis-sets a hand, etc.)

It's just that sometimes - TOO often - players can get a sense of bizarre entitlement that:
1. "I'm spending money at the casino - I can DO WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT - AND TELL ANYONE WHAT TO DO" (heard this AND seen resulting actions).
2. With "dangerous" money on the line (mortgage payment), they may try to take shots - or even cheat.
3. With alcohol in their system, their sense of entitlement, hubris, and inmunity go through the roof.

Believe me, We love our customers. Know them all by name, greet them, give them slack, you name it - if they are REAL customers, so to speak
But Cheaters, molesters, belligerent alcoholics, etc. are things ANY business can do without - and casinos have MORE of them than other entertainment outlets.

The mixture of:
1 Gambling,
2. the sense of entitlement to do what ever you want,
3. the playground environment,
4. Sweating your "scared" money,
5. the free-flowing alcohol

can make for a very explosive combination in a large segment of people
As for swearing, we don't do it from of customers, or about our customers (good people), but shot takers, cheaters, people who steal other people's chips, people who act inappropriately to a waitress - ALL of that - will make us comment among ourselves, "G'damn, did you see what that f*cking moron tried to pull off??!! - and yes, we can be exhasperated for it. But let me clear on this: if we swear about a criminal (and what that guy did was criminal), it does not mean we swear about players. Can we make the distinction between a criminal and a player?

If someone was clearly out of bounds or out of control, - yes, a forceful response with forceful language can be use to "snap" a person out some entitled state of mind - and back to reality that "we are not playing - we CANNOT have this!"

If you had ANY idea how tough or rude this business can be, you'd be amazed.

A part of the problem is "entitlement" - the sense of "I can do what I want or tell anyone what I want" in a casino environment with a few drinks in me!
I hear at this board:
1. I don't have to follow the house rules if it is "technically" legal.
2. I can demand to see a 1,000 page regulation book if I am told that something I did was out-of-bounds or inappropriate. The old "Where is it written.
3. The casinos have a secret book of "dark arts - a la Lord Voldemort - that keeps players spelledbound and victims of the casino (THIS was off the wall)
4. Card Counting is a productive use of my time, even though it is ancient, it is ineffectual 99% of the time, it no longer works, and it is against casino house rules.

These are the utterly untenable positions I hear from many board members.

Look: Card counting IS considered cheating by the Casinos. It is NOT considered cheating by the Police! But that is more than enough! Period, end of story.

And yes - in response to people who felt that I had called them idiots for endorsing card counting, my view is that pursuing anything that is both bound for failure as an effective money-making tool, AND gets you into trouble with the venues that you wish to play at - is idiotic.

And my position is also that if you cannot understand Three aspects of card counting that make it a problem - and
I mean GRASP - Comprehend - these three SIMPLE points, then you ARE DENSE! It is SIMPLE:
1. It is against the house rules of a game, period - end of story. Doesn't matter what the local precinct says - it matters what the PIT BOSS says! Simple concept #1.
2. It just doesn't work, hasn't worked for freakin' ages. Simple concept #2.
3. It gets you into trouble. Simple concept #3.

If you think it is because I wish to protect the casinos from card counters, that is not the case. We are protected as it is. And We make money from wanna-be counters. If you become a card counter, then you are unprotecting yourself, if you end up in a "book" of undesirable players.
I wish to protect gamblers from wasting their time if they seriously think card counting is viable.


As for understanding what it is like to work in a casino:
If 98% of players are saints, and 2% of players are pure trouble, that 2% can really cause damage and make a scene.

Quote: Face

In Dan's defense, I think I understand his point even if I don't entirely agree. How I interpret his opinion is that BJ has a way to be played, and counting is not part of it. Thorpe made it part of it, but it's not truely part of it as it wasn't made that way. It's funny, because my terrible analogy to this is the Wizard's traffic bet. His friend used "Skill", used "her brain", "outsmarted the Wiz" and "won" the bet. A great many people called that cheating, and I was one of the more vocal of that bunch. There was no rule book, no rules at all as far as I could tell, but many of us called that "cheating". It was playing outside of the box the game was designed in. Maybe Dan can confirm or deny, but to me, this is how I interpret what he's saying.

I was passionately against the friend of Wiz, yet am fine with counting. I wonder why that is....?

Face, thanks.
On the subject of Mike's friendly bet, I sided with his friend, the judge, because there was no ground rule against the use of a sharp strategy in it.
In counting, there is a ground rule, an open house rule, that it is simply not allowed.
And it is because of the history and the development of blackjack that this situation came to be.

Has the counting question, like the Uston case in New Jersey, ever been adjudicated in Nevada?

Quote: Paigowdan

Look: Card counting IS considered cheating by the Casinos. It is NOT considered cheating by the Police! But that is more than enough! Period, end of story.
...
1. It is against the house rules of a game, period - end of story. Doesn't matter what the local precinct says - it matters what the PIT BOSS says!

I was at Mohegan Sun yesterday, asked a floor supervisor if counting card was cheating or against the rules. His exact response was:
"No, it is not against the rules, but we do not like it when people do it."

I also asked him why they don't want to install more CSMs if they don't like counting, and he said:
"Well, you know, most people can't really count, but like to think they can. We don't want to upset them."

I hope, this should put the issue to rest. Counting is not only not against the rules, but is also used by the casino to increase its profits.
This situation is akin to 100+% VP machines. If everyone played perfectly, the casino would loose money, but they still keep the machine on the floor to attract people who think they can play and win, but will in fact loose. They (the casinos) use the same exact strategy with counting.

Quote:

And yes - in response to people who felt that I had called them idiots for endorsing card counting, my view is that pursuing anything that is both bound for failure as an effective money-making tool, AND gets you into trouble with the venues that you wish to play at - is idiotic.

What I think deserves the designation of "idiotic", is a position asserting simultaneously that counting hurts the casino and that there is no way for the player to profit from it.

Quote:

If you think it is because I wish to protect the casinos from card counters, that is not the case. We are protected as it is. And We make money from wanna-be counters.

Exactly. And you cannot have it both ways. If the card counting was indeed against the rules, then casino making profit on it would be cheating.

Quote:

If you become a card counter, then you are unprotecting yourself, if you end up in a "book" of undesirable players.

That is fine. I don't mind being considered undesirable. I do mind being called an idiot or a cheater.

Quote: Paigowdan

And my position is also that if you cannot understand Three aspects of card counting that make it a problem - and
I mean GRASP - Comprehend - these three SIMPLE points, then you ARE DENSE! It is SIMPLE:
1. It is against the house rules of a game, period - end of story. Doesn't matter what the local precinct says - it matters what the PIT BOSS says! Simple concept #1.
2. It just doesn't work, hasn't worked for freakin' ages. Simple concept #2.
3. It gets you into trouble. Simple concept #3.

Dan,
Your arguments would hold more weight if you would drop the rhetoric about point number 2. Just because you say it every time does not make it true, and your continual pounding on that statement just serves to weaken the rest of your statements. If you can't see how the casino's actions, and your support of those actions, are in direct conflict with your statement that counting does not work, then I have to question how reasonable or factual the rest of your statements are.

FACT: If counting was ineffective and did not work, the casinos WOULD NOT consider it cheating, and would not take steps to prevent it. Why on earth would they prevent someone from playing a game where the player was going to lose their money. And, because the player perceived they had an edge, would BET MORE money. Bottom line is, the casino would not take any action, if there was no advantage to the player. End of story.

This is not meant as a personal attack. I truly appreciate the vast majority of your posts, and your insight from a perspective not many of us will ever get a chance to have. Personally, I think some of the exchanges in this thread have gotten off topic and a bit mean spirited (on both sides), but I think that just shows how passionate both sides are on this topic.

Quote: matilda

Has the counting question, like the Uston case in New Jersey, ever been adjudicated in Nevada?

Uston v. Resorts was more about property access rights and discrimination than card counting. The issue in Uston was whether an establishment which is otherwise open to the public may exclude someone on any grounds, even if they are not breaking the law. NJ courts held "no". I believe that exclusionary right still exists for Nevada casino property owners. There was one case last year in North Las Vegas where a trespass charge against an AP was dismissed (City of North Las Vegas v. Thomas Robertson) but there is lots of other precedent in Nevada for barring skilled players.

RalieghCraps,
No offense taken, I do see your point.
But my point in the sense that it doesn't work IS precisely because casinos (not the police) consider it cheating.
I could say:
FACT: No one around this board makes a viable living as a card-counter. Max Rubin, Ian Anderson, and Stanford Wong do not post here.
FACT: The well has dried up for the big boys: Max is now a spokesman and pundit, and Anderson and Wong get book royalties.
FACT: The path of card-counting has been exhasted and depleted, and Casinos are fully adapted to squashing card-counting as a lucrative source of income.

Casinos also consider armed robbery cheating too (like the Bellagio incident) - AND the bandit DID make off with a shitload of chips. This is actually TRUE. But it availed him nothing, got him jail time, and was just a big problem for the casino and its players, all were inconvenienced.

Card -counting is now a "curio" trick of casino study, and the study of casino games and its math. Very good for that.
But as a serious income source, - a serious practice - it is really no where. Not even Ed Thorpe took it seriously

" i t goes without saying (and I think you know this) that counting is just one of those things that are "against the rules" as far as casino management is concerned. "

No it does not go without saying. You and Dan have both now accused me of cheating by violating a rule. Show me that rule or regulation that says I can not count. There is none. All that exist is your decision to back me off if you think I might win. Worse yet I have been backed off when losing. So you are in effect saying, we know you are losing but we fear you are good enough to get back to even, therefore leave.
SHOW ME THE RULE I AM ACCUSED OF VIOLATING !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There's a world of difference between saying "card counting doesn't work" and "you can't make a living from it". A small-stakes bettor can spread 1-4 using a simple count and gamble for free (theoretically). That's not making a living, but it is gambling at about break-even or slightly positive. Let me ask this: at the Fiesta, do you back off a player spreading $10-$40 who is showing evidence of counting but is not doing it perfectly?

That's my usual spread. Keeps me entertained and occasionally I win enough to cover my wife's losses at the slots.

I've been spreading up to 30 units and haven't been backed off yet. But I spread pretty quick and aggressively, once I hit +2 and above. I also occasionally throw a 5 unit bet on a negative count after 3 to 4 lost hands in a row, and I usually open shoes with a 3 to 5 unit bet. And I will "let it ride" sometimes on the same count. So far so good. I probably erase a majority of my edge with these plays though.

Complete derailment, my apologies for that >>

I'll just say that it apparently is OK if the dealer reshuffles anytime the count goes positive, no cut card. Everyone agree?

Of course it is, There is no rule against it. Just like there is NO RULE against counting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yea no rule against it, but I'll stop playing a selective dealers table quick. On the other hand a dealer giving good penetration who doesn't do shit like that gets tipped well, by me anyway. It tends to coincide with me winning and not sweating the tip money.

3 votes for counting is cheating. Wondering how many times Dan voted? LOL

Quote: MathExtremist

There's a world of difference between saying "card counting doesn't work" and "you can't make a living from it". A small-stakes bettor can spread 1-4 using a simple count and gamble for free (theoretically). That's not making a living, but it is gambling at about break-even or slightly positive. Let me ask this: at the Fiesta, do you back off a player spreading $10-$40 who is showing evidence of counting but is not doing it perfectly?

No, we don't, it's mickey-mouse. Unless of course surveillance calls down, or a floorman has an issue with it.
We've had players go from $10 (two nickels) to $80 (three quarters with a nickel on top), uncarded, and wearing a baseball cap; that gets attention.
If you can't really generate income from it, it becomes a boring grind to shave slivers off these nickels.
Card counting doesn't work because even if your grinding nickels, you'll get caught and known as trouble.

There is a huge element of thrill in "beating the system," "pulling one over," etc., and it seems that too many people get their juice NOT from the play or the cards or dice - but by seeing "what kind of crap can I get away with?" and "Yesss! I pulled a number and got away with it! Yahoo!" There is a misplaced thrill in that.

With some of the outrageous and serious crap and cheating that casinos have to put up with, and the alcohol fueled shouting matches and inappropriate behaviour, adding penny-ante card-counters to the mix is just another headache that increases expenses and troubles for all. As far as I'm concerned, the house edges - as is -are a bargain.

Quote: buzzpaff

3 votes for counting is cheating. Wondering how many times Dan voted? LOL

Once. But what I think doesn't matter, neither does the consensus of this board. It really doesn't.
What we don't get is that it is what the pit boss and his security guards think.
Doesn't matter if you had all of the card-counting nation vote a million votes here, it really means shit to just what ONE pit boss thinks.
What are you gonna tell a pit manager when he backs you off? "....but they SAID is was OKAY at the Wizard of Vegas??!!"
You won't be hitting the jail, but you'll be hitting the streets.
And for a gambler, that stinks.
I'm happy to roll dice, play Pai Gow, and play VK.

Quote: Paigowdan

RalieghCraps,
No offense taken, I do see your point.
But my point in the sense that it doesn't work IS precisely because casinos (not the police) consider it cheating.
I could say:
FACT: No one around this board makes a viable living as a card-counter. Max Rubin, Ian Anderson, and Stanford Wong do not post here.
FACT: The well as dried up for the big boys: Max is now a spokesman and pundit, and Anderson and Wong get book royalties.
FACT: The path of card-counting has been exhasted and depleted, and Casinos are fully adapted to squashing card-counting as a lucrative source of income.

Casinos also consider armed robbery cheating too (like the Bellagio incident) - AND the bandit DID make off with a shitload of chips. This is actually TRUE. But it availed him nothing, got him jail time, and was just a big problem for the casino and its players, all were inconvenienced.

Card -counting is now a "curio" trick of casino study, and the study of casino games and its math. Very good for that.
But as a serious income source, - a serious practice - it is really no where. Not even Ed Thorpe took it seriously

Okay, now I don't have any arguments with the way you have worded it in the above FACTS section. Since I don't have enough knowledge to contest if the FACTS are true or not, I can accept your words as an insider.

I don't like the armed robbery analogy because armed robbery is a criminal act, and is in fact illegal EVERYWHERE. It goes way beyond cheating, and I agree, is utterly stupid. So I agree with what you are saying, but it has no relation to counting cards, since counting cards is not ILLEGAL. I count cards all the time in our hearts games at home, and no one calls me a criminal or accuses me of cheating. The casino does consider it cheating when playing BJ, and that is fine as the casino has the right to define cheating as they see fit for their house games.

Your last couple of posts give me a thought that perhaps you are posting your strong stance on this topic as a way to dissuade new, wannabe counters. I detect you are trying to tell them it is not worth the time, because the casino will catch unto them before they can make any money at it, and their casino life will be hell because they choose that path. (Along the way, they inadvertently make your life hell too, when it takes place while you are on shift). If that is your motive, I certainly would not say you were wrong.
However, I suspect we are now in the topic from other threads about trying to educate people while playing a game. 99% of the time it just doesn't work. I feel it is the same with this topic. New people coming here for counting tips are not going to be dissuaded from their journey, by reading your posts. It may enlighten them, but it won't stop them.

Quote: dm

I'll just say that it apparently is OK if the dealer reshuffles anytime the count goes positive, no cut card. Everyone agree?

It is "ok" in the sense, it is not cheating. They have every right to do that, just like they have every right to pay 6:5 for blackjack.
I would not play that game, even when I am not counting though, but that's a different question ... I won't play a 6:5 bj either.

Quote: weaselman

I was at Mohegan Sun yesterday, asked a floor supervisor if counting card was cheating or against the rules. His exact response was:
"No, it is not against the rules, but we do not like it when people do it."

Even I admit that that is a complete cop out answer. He was saying that is was against the rules in "double-speak." Give you credit for that.

Quote: weaselman

I also asked him why they don't want to install more CSMs if they don't like counting, and he said:
"Well, you know, most people can't really count, but like to think they can. We don't want to upset them."

I hope, this should put the issue to rest. Counting is not only not against the rules,

Incorrect, it IS against the house rules; this is both stated here, and by casino actions whenever a counter gets backed-off.
Denying this is DEEP denial!

Quote: weaselman

but is also used by the casino to increase its profits.
This situation is akin to 100+% VP machines. If everyone played perfectly, the casino would loose money, but they still keep the machine on the floor to attract people who think they can play and win, but will in fact loose. They (the casinos) use the same exact strategy with counting.

People have been winning even on the CSM machines. By luck or variance yes, but any winning keeps them coming back, not losing.

Quote: weaselman

[Dan:]And yes - in response to people who felt that I had called them idiots for endorsing card counting, my view is that pursuing anything that is both bound for failure as an effective money-making tool, AND gets you into trouble with the venues that you wish to play at - is idiotic.

What I think deserves the designation of "idiotic", is a position asserting simultaneously that counting hurts the casino and that there is no way for the player to profit from it.

No, it is indeed idiotic, at least to some degree. It ends up being costly to BOTH the mistaken gambler who still thinks it's viable, and to the casino who has to police this stuff too much. So - It IS costly to both.

Quote: weaselman

And you cannot have it both ways. If the card counting was indeed against the rules, then casino making profit on it would be cheating.

The thing is this: if a so-called card-counter is incompetent at it (and most actually are), then they are not really card-counters. For that matter, having the fantasy that you are a rock star does NOT ACTUALLY make you a rock star. The same applies to card-counting: there are a LOT more people who claim to be card counters, then there are actual card counters.

Quote: weaselman

That is fine. I don't mind being considered undesirable. I do mind being called an idiot or a cheater.

Well, then you're gonna mind counting cards at a casino, because they're gonna view you both as a cheat (as in "breaking the house rules"), and as an idiot when you get backed-off. ("We backed off another idiot who thought he was slick.") They wouldn't always tell you this to your face, but if you are backed-off, you can hear them think this loudly with annoyance.

Part of my apparent rudeness comes from telling you NOT want the board wants to hear, but from telling the real story of how real casino managers view advantage players. Do you think a casino managers say, "We were taken down for $100,000 by card counters - WHAT A GREAT BUNCH OF GUYS!!" or do you think they say, "We were taken down for $100,000 by card counters - what a bunch of freaking dirt-bags!"

And if they catch counters, do you think they say "What a bunch of sharp fellows we have here!" or do do you think they say "We caught more freaking idiots who actually thought they were slick!"

Quote: weaselman

It is "ok" in the sense, it is not cheating. They have every right to do that, just like they have every right to pay 6:5 for blackjack.
I would not play that game, even when I am not counting though, but that's a different question ... I won't play a 6:5 bj either.

No, dealers and casinos do NOT have the right to use preferential shuffling. On a double deck or on a shoe game, the cut card is an obvious re-shuffle point. On single deck, you can count the rounds of play by the number of players.

Since casino games already have a mathematical house edge they are honor-bound to trust, then casinos have absolutely no business whatsoever taking any further steps to seek any further advantage whatsoever, be it preferential shuffling, or using loaded dice, or removing tens from a deck, etc.

Quote: Paigowdan

Incorrect, it IS against the house rules;

First you say "it only matter what PIT BOSS says", then I ask the PIT BOSS, tell you what he said, and ... you trun around and claim it is "incorrect" :)
Nice ...

Quote:

People have been winning even on the CSM machines.

People have been winning on roulette too. So what?
What does this have to do with anything?

Quote:

The thing is this: if a so-called card-counter is incompetent at it (and most actually are), then they are not really card-counters.

Ok, but are they "cheaters" in your opinion?

Quote:

For that matter, having the fantasy that you are a rock star does NOT ACTUALLY make you a rock star.

No. But running into a bank with a ski mask and a plastic gun does make you a bank robber even if you don't make any money on it, doesn't it?

Quote:

The same applies to card-counting: there are a LOT more people who claim to be card counters, then there are actual card counters.

That is exactly my point. If card counting was indeed against the rules, the casinos would loose the profits they are currently making off this people. They fully realize that, and that's the reason they won't make a rule against card counting, and won't make the uncountable.

Quote:

Well, then you're gonna mind counting cards at a casino, because they're gonna view you both as a cheat (as in "breaking the house rules"),

No, they are not. Don't forget - I ASKED THEM. AND THEY TOLD ME it is not the case.

Quote:

And if they catch counters, do you think they say "What a bunch of sharp fellows we have here!"

I don't really care what they say. As long as they don't think I am a cheater or that I am dishonest or that I violate any of their rules, which they just confirmed they do not.

Quote: Paigowdan

No, dealers and casinos do NOT have the right to use preferential shuffling.

Says who? Is there a rule or a regulation against that?