6:5 vs 3:2

I know that 6:5 should always be avoided but there is a 6:5 game 20 minutes from my house, whereas the nearest 3:2 game is about 1.5 hours. I've been driving out to the 3:2 game but I was wondering if I lose more in gas than the advantage I am gaining. The 6:5 rules are 6 Decks, 75% penetration, H17, Split to 5 hands, Double after split (except Aces), Hit split Aces and surrender any hand. I think the house edge is about 1.75%. The 3:2 game is 6 Decks, 75% penetration, H17, Split to 4 hands, Double after split (except Aces), No hit after split Aces, no surrender. I think the house edge is about 0.57%.

My question: is driving an extra 90 miles worth the extra 1.2%? Also, the 6:5 game doesn't bother with 50 cent chips so surrendering a $5 hand pays $3 and a $15 hand pays $8 etc.

On principal alone, Yes it's worth it. Eventually the casino closer to home will be forced to compete with the casino down the road apiece. I think this is what's going to happen in Atlantic City eventually. AC's famously crappy payout will be forced to compete with the nearby Pennsylvania casinos. Or Donald Trump will declare bankruptcy again..whatever.

Good question. There is no way in hell I would drive 90 miles for 1.2% better house edge. Think about it this way. We'll say you play for four hours @ $10 a hand at 6:5.

That's about 250 hands, losing 17.5 cents a hand for a loss of $43.75.

In 3:2, you're playing 250 hands, losing 5.7 cents a hand for an expected loss of $14.25.

If you get 26 mpg, and you're driving an extra 180 miles, you're using about 7 gallons of gas. At $4 a gallon, that's about an extra $28. Counting the wear and tear on your car, you're definitely ahead just staying close to home.

That's not even counting the 3 extra hours of your life you have to relax instead of drive. You get to drive to and from the casino and play 4 hours of BJ in 5 hours total. The other casino, it's going to take about 7 hours total to play that 4 hours of blackjack.

My conclusion is that unless you're playing green chips ($25) or higher, stay close.

Rather than settle for 6:5, is there a different, lower edge game you could adopt? Video Poker? Craps? Maybe it is time to expand your repertoire.

Quote: Alex

I know that 6:5 should always be avoided but there is a 6:5 game 20 minutes from my house, whereas the nearest 3:2 game is about 1.5 hours. I've been driving out to the 3:2 game but I was wondering if I lose more in gas than the advantage I am gaining. The 6:5 rules are 6 Decks, 75% penetration, H17, Split to 5 hands, Double after split (except Aces), Hit split Aces and surrender any hand. I think the house edge is about 1.75%. The 3:2 game is 6 Decks, 75% penetration, H17, Split to 4 hands, Double after split (except Aces), No hit after split Aces, no surrender. I think the house edge is about 0.57%.

My question: is driving an extra 90 miles worth the extra 1.2%? Also, the 6:5 game doesn't bother with 50 cent chips so surrendering a $5 hand pays $3 and a $15 hand pays $8 etc.

Yes, you should make the drive based on principle alone. Same reason as I will likely drive than fly to Chicago this fall because I refuse to deal with the HS the TSA kmakes you go thru. Taking a stand might mean inconvieniencing yourself.

I would definitely drive to the 3:2 game.

I live in Texas, where the closest BJ games are New Mexico, Kansas or Louisiana. Oklahoma has casinos, but they charge .50 a hand, so I refuse to play there. In any case, the closest casino to my house is just under five hours, so 1.5 hours would be nothing to me. I agree with other posters that, on principle alone, I would drive the extra distance.

Good luck!

I do not know how far I would drive for the 3:2 game, but I would NEVER play the 6:5 game. I'll tolerate the other rules to house advantage to some degree, but never 6:5. If a casino does not have 3:2 it does not have blackjack.

Quote: Alex

Also, the 6:5 game doesn't bother with 50 cent chips so surrendering a $5 hand pays $3 and a $15 hand pays $8 etc.

Wow that's pretty huge! That's got to make up for a good deal of the 6:5 BJ. I've never heard of this, and I would imagine that you would change the surrender basic strategy a good deal with these rules. Especially with a $5 bet getting an extra 50 cents!

Quote: clarkacal

Wow that's pretty huge! That's got to make up for a good deal of the 6:5 BJ. I've never heard of this, and I would imagine that you would change the surrender basic strategy a good deal with these rules. Especially with a $5 bet getting an extra 50 cents!

Can't you just play $6, or $16 a hand? I know it's weird, but there's no reason why they shouldn't let you.

Quote: dudestupid

Can't you just play $6, or $16 a hand? I know it's weird, but there's no reason why they shouldn't let you.

No you would WANT to play $5. Surrendering pays you $3 instead of $2.50. That's 20% more! I'm not sure but you might even want to start surrendering 14s against a 9 and 8 or 17s against a 10.

I totaled a car on the way home from a casino at 3 a.m. on a 90 mile trip when a deer got in my way. I swerved around the deer, flipped the car over. Scariest moment of my life.

F--- principles. If I'm going to casinos, I usually will be driving late at night, and if I can save money by being at the casino closer to me, then I'm going to save the money.

If the gas station close to your house always charges .10 a gallon too much, will you drive 10 extra miles/minutes to the next gas station to take a stand? If you get 10 gallons, you paid an extra dollar, but you used $2 worth of gas to do so.

I try to take a stand on more important issues.

Play 3:2, hit the deer.

Everyone said "Oh, I would have just hit the deer" It's a lot different when you're in a sedan going 75 mph and there's a deer right in front of you, and you have .1 second to make a decision. I'm alive, so in hindsight, I guess it wasn't that bad...

Quote: FinsRule

Everyone said "Oh, I would have just hit the deer" It's a lot different when you're in a sedan going 75 mph and there's a deer right in front of you, and you have .1 second to make a decision. I'm alive, so in hindsight, I guess it wasn't that bad...

1. Why are you in a sedan? You must know what MR2 with a bit of improvement can do... Unless you're married, but it's not like a [happily] married man to take off and go to a casino in the middle of the night.
2. If your car doesn't handle very well and doesn't have powerful headlights, going 75mph in the night would be, in hindsight, possibly the worst part.
3. Even among sedans, a few good models from Audi, Mitsubishi and Subaru actually handle well enough to execute the maneuver even at that speed.

Also, FWIW, on a serious note, IIRC statistically it's better to evade than hit. If you had a roll cage and a six-point, evasion would be a no-brainer, but it's better even in a regular car. If the body goes through the windscreen, extensive safety features of modern cars won't be able to help.

Does anyone know exactly how much this surrender rule changes the house edge?

Quote: Alex

I know that 6:5 should always be avoided but there is a 6:5 game 20 minutes from my house, whereas the nearest 3:2 game is about 1.5 hours.

I would always advise others to trek the extra 90 miles on grounds of moral principles, but I myself would just go to the nearby casino and save the travel-time and gas money.

Surrender? I never take insurance and I never surrender, so that part of it doesn't affect me at all.

Quote: DeMango

Play 3:2, hit the deer.

Free venison!
I guess you can't sue the deer though!

Quote: FinsRule

Everyone said "Oh, I would have just hit the deer" It's a lot different when you're in a sedan going 75 mph and there's a deer right in front of you, and you have .1 second to make a decision. I'm alive, so in hindsight, I guess it wasn't that bad...

And if you hit a large animal at that speed, or near enough, the car will be totaled anyway. So you might as well spare the poor creature.

Quote: P90

1. Why are you in a sedan? You must know what MR2 with a bit of improvement can do... Unless you're married, but it's not like a [happily] married man to take off and go to a casino in the middle of the night.
2. If your car doesn't handle very well and doesn't have powerful headlights, going 75mph in the night would be, in hindsight, possibly the worst part.
3. Even among sedans, a few good models from Audi, Mitsubishi and Subaru actually handle well enough to execute the maneuver even at that speed.

1. Yes, I am happily married. My wife was with me rolling around in the car at the time.
2. You're probably right. I only drive shorter distances, or much better lit distances at night now.
3. Once I can afford a nice car like an Audi, consider it done.

Quote: FinsRule

If the gas station close to your house always charges .10 a gallon too much, will you drive 10 extra miles/minutes to the next gas station to take a stand? If you get 10 gallons, you paid an extra dollar, but you used $2 worth of gas to do so.

I try to take a stand on more important issues.

I actually do shop gas prices. The closest station to my house actually made the local paper as the first to go over $4.00 per gallon. I never go to that place. I guess gas prices are an important principle for me. I wouldn't drive 10 miles out of my way but I would find another station along the route I'm going.

If the route that I'm going is a BlackJack table, then I'm going to find the one with the best deal. Now get out of my way, I see a penny slot machine open with my name on it!!

Ah, I see, thought of a different scenario. Though that made the situation even more dangerous.

Anyway, the serious part is, the advice to hit is dangerous. It's only the right move to hit deer/moose when in a truck (which can't evade anyway), especially with a bullbar, or at a low speed (up to 30-40mph range) without space to maneuver. In a normal height car, at 40-50mph and above, the carcass goes through the windscreen, which is the most common fatality cause in car-deer accidents, and at 75mph it's a given that it would break through. Cars are designed to protect occupants against normal crashes and rollovers, but not against that.

It's not about the animal, but the occupants; while braking is usually the recommended course of action, it only applies at a low enough speed to slow down substantially.

Quote: s2dbaker

If the route that I'm going is a BlackJack table, then I'm going to find the one with the best deal. Now get out of my way, I see a penny slot machine open with my name on it!!

Why are you trying to shop for the best deal at a blackjack table if you are going to give away any gains won there by playing a slot machine?

Quote: FleaStiff

Why are you trying to shop for the best deal at a blackjack table if you are going to give away any gains won there by playing a slot machine?

That's the joke, I am a thoughtless hypocrite.

Quote: P90

Ah, I see, thought of a different scenario. Though that made the situation even more dangerous.

Anyway, the serious part is, the advice to hit is dangerous. It's only the right move to hit deer/moose when in a truck (which can't evade anyway), especially with a bullbar, or at a low speed (up to 30-40mph range) without space to maneuver. In a normal height car, at 40-50mph and above, the carcass goes through the windscreen, which is the most common fatality cause in car-deer accidents, and at 75mph it's a given that it would break through. Cars are designed to protect occupants against normal crashes and rollovers, but not against that.

It's not about the animal, but the occupants; while braking is usually the recommended course of action, it only applies at a low enough speed to slow down substantially.

This is only my opinion from my experience:

I lived in MT for quite some time so I knew of many people who had car-deer interactions. Swerving almost always resulted in an accident. My guess is that the people who swerved did so because they were not good drivers, and both did the wrong thing and did it incorrectly. The best bet was always to hammer the brakes and, at the last moment make a slight swerve to the appropriate side to hopefully either miss the deer or only hit half of it, preventing the whole thing from coming through the windshield.

Just because the deer is running across the road doesn't mean you will hit it. So, swerving immediately means you risk crashing *and* risk swerving into the deer, because sometimes they stop and sometimes they run faster.

If the deer is so close you couldn't possibly scrub off any speed by braking, you're so close that the swerve required to miss the deer will almost certainly cause you to crash.

A friend of mine just totalled his Subaru WRX a couple years ago swerving to avoid a deer on a highway - ended up leaving the road and falling down an embankment.

So, now that I really think about it I can't recall anybody actually getting hurt from running into a deer, but then more trucks than cars were involved. The only bad one I can think of was a cow and the driver was OK (car totalled, cow rolled over and flattened the whole thing).

The best advice I could ever give anybody was to look for deer in the first place. If you see glowing eyes on the side of the road, slow down. And if you see a deer cross the road ahead of you, there are probably more nearby.

I always heard the best move when confronted with the proverbial deer in the headlights is to actually hit the accelerator rather than the brakes, the theory being that braking will dip the front of your vehicle and increase the likelihood the deer will end up in your windshield rather than under your tires (where they belong! (j/k)).

But I do agree that careful and slow driving is the best way to prevent the situation altogether.

Quote: progrocker

I always heard the best move when confronted with the proverbial deer in the headlights is to actually hit the accelerator rather than the brakes, the theory being that braking will dip the front of your vehicle and increase the likelihood the deer will end up in your windshield rather than under your tires (where they belong! (j/k)).

The Mythbusters busted the hell out of that one, though the used a simulated moose rather than a deer.

Maybe I was thinking of squirrels then.... ;-)

Quote: supergreg2

So, now that I really think about it I can't recall anybody actually getting hurt from running into a deer, but then more trucks than cars were involved.

It depends on the car and the speed. At 30-40mph it's relatively safe, since the carcass lands on the hood, so under 50 braking is always right. But at high speeds, in a car, it's close to a sure fatality if the windscreen is penetrated.
Braking is also speed dependent, slowing down 50->40 is much more feasible than 75->50. If you can't slow down enough, your chances in a normal "low" crash are far better than in a deer collision.
As for deer and moose behavior, they usually either freeze, particularly in the night, or turn back. It's also somewhat counterintuitive and causes mistakes.

The correct evasive maneuver takes some time to learn, it's pulling the wheel all the way in panic that gets you, while only a small turn is called for. Done right, it's possible in most cars, and is one of the most basic defensive driving maneuvers. Trucks don't count, but they don't need to do it, the hood is high enough that the carcass doesn't slide up it.