Golden Oldie Moving to Vegas

Ok, I have given some thought to the recent developments and drama that has occured here. There is a small group of people, I guess losing blackjack players or former players that are trolling me hard blaming me for them getting into blackjack and losing. It seems like 4 or 5, but may actually be as small as 2 or 3. They just are able to make one heck of a lot of noise, via sockpuppetry.

Well I am not going to allow those people to drive me from the forums. I am not responsible for their actions or results. I didn't train them or anything. I didn't ENCOURAGE them to play blackjack. I simply shared my own story and experiences. If that inspired them or anyone, that is their own choice. They need to take responsibility for their own decisions and how they turned out.

Now to Bosox and TDVegas and maybe a few others that don't like me sharing some of the details of what I do:. That is really none of your business. Sharing some details of what I do only effects me. It isn't harming anyone else. Blackjack card counting and most of the techniques that I do are not new. They are not great secrets. All of this stuff has been around and talked about on forums and books for years. This is general public knowledge stuff for most players.

There are some specific techniques that I do that are not so general knowledge and for the most part I keep them to myself. I did share one, a few years ago, tracking a second table while playing one, so as to be able to jump directly from a neutral or negative count and situation to a postive or more favorable situation. And when I shared that, non blackjack players, went beserk, on several forums, unable to grasp that. Of course several other professional players or professional Level players, confirmed that they too do or have done that when the opportunity occurs, including Don Schlesinger, Richard Munchkin and one longterm AP that occasionally posts here.

I am just saying that was probably something I shouldn't have shared, but all this other stuff, is just common decades old general knowledge. Still good techniques that can improve your game and longevity, but I am not revealing any great secrets. LOL

There happen to be a couple other things like the tracking of a second table (when available) that are really big game changers and not as known that I haven't and won't discuss. I learned my lesson from the tracking 2 tables debacle.

Point is Bosox, TDVegas, I am NOT reavealing any great secrets and if me revealing some of what I do is hurting anyone, it is only me, so lighten up!

Quote: kewlj

There is a small group of people, I guess losing blackjack players or former players that are…..blaming me for them getting into blackjack and losing.

Never counted cards so I never considered myself a “winning” blackjack player. It’s a negative expectation game for me. Referring to anyone as “losers” cements my idea that your reasoning for sharing is likely based on nothing more than stroking your ego. A “look at me” type mentality. “I’m not them”. So be it.

Quote: kewlj

Now to Bosox and TDVegas and maybe a few others that don't like me sharing some of the details of what I do:. That is really none of your business.

Correct. I’m merely sharing my own ideas about the wisdom of an AP player sharing his “wares” on a public forum. I don’t think it’s rooted in anything but stroking ones ego. A means of separating oneself as a “real gambler” from the “hoi polloi” gamblers. See above. You are CERTAINLY free to do as you wish.

Quote: kewlj

Point is Bosox, TDVegas, I am NOT reavealing any great secrets and if me revealing some of what I do is hurting anyone, it is only me, so lighten up!

Correct. Again, merely sharing my thoughts on the subject of a “claimed” AP player sharing any of his ideas, his play, his nuances. My suggestion is it’s rooted in personal ego…nothing more or less. I personally don’t think it’s a good idea. You are fine with it. I don’t see the problem other than 2 people sharing their thoughts on the subject. I’m not telling you not to do it, only questioning the wisdom of doing it and my personal feeling why it’s being done. So, lighten up.

If you feel slighted, que sera sera.

Quote: kewlj

Ok, I have given some thought to the recent developments and drama that has occured here. There is a small group of people, I guess losing blackjack players or former players that are trolling me hard blaming me for them getting into blackjack and losing. It seems like 4 or 5, but may actually be as small as 2 or 3. They just are able to make one heck of a lot of noise, via sockpuppetry.

Well I am not going to allow those people to drive me from the forums. I am not responsible for their actions or results. I didn't train them or anything. I didn't ENCOURAGE them to play blackjack. I simply shared my own story and experiences. If that inspired them or anyone, that is their own choice. They need to take responsibility for their own decisions and how they turned out.

Now to Bosox and TDVegas and maybe a few others that don't like me sharing some of the details of what I do:. That is really none of your business. Sharing some details of what I do only effects me. It isn't harming anyone else. Blackjack card counting and most of the techniques that I do are not new. They are not great secrets. All of this stuff has been around and talked about on forums and books for years. This is general public knowledge stuff for most players.

There are some specific techniques that I do that are not so general knowledge and for the most part I keep them to myself. I did share one, a few years ago, tracking a second table while playing one, so as to be able to jump directly from a neutral or negative count and situation to a postive or more favorable situation. And when I shared that, non blackjack players, went beserk, on several forums, unable to grasp that. Of course several other professional players or professional Level players, confirmed that they too do or have done that when the opportunity occurs, including Don Schlesinger, Richard Munchkin and one longterm AP that occasionally posts here.

I am just saying that was probably something I shouldn't have shared, but all this other stuff, is just common decades old general knowledge. Still good techniques that can improve your game and longevity, but I am not revealing any great secrets. LOL

There happen to be a couple other things like the tracking of a second table (when available) that are really big game changers and not as known that I haven't and won't discuss. I learned my lesson from the tracking 2 tables debacle.

Point is Bosox, TDVegas, I am NOT reavealing any great secrets and if me revealing some of what I do is hurting anyone, it is only me, so lighten up!

You shouldn't even have felt the need to respond to such ridiculousness.

Quote: 21forme

moses - IMO, your plan won't work. As others have stated, DD is a counter trap in Vegas and playinug HL games for any length of time will result in quick backoffs. As Richard Munchkin has said many times, "Vegas is the worst place in the country to count cards." If you want to move to Vegas, you'll need to expand your AP repertoire..

nuf said. 👍

Quote: kewlj

Now to Bosox and TDVegas and maybe a few others that don't like me sharing some of the details of what I do:. That is really none of your business. Sharing some details of what I do only effects me. It isn't harming anyone else. Blackjack card counting and most of the techniques that I do are not new. They are not great secrets. All of this stuff has been around and talked about on forums and books for years. This is general public knowledge stuff for most players. Now to Bosox and TDVegas and maybe a few others that don't like me sharing some of the details of what I do.

KJ, this above paragraph is worthy of reflection in that you are stating that what you share in what you do is general public knowledge. I always realized that what you shared wasn't hurting anyone beyond the point of un-realized bragging about beating the cat and mouse game. For me, it was not so much about what you wrote but the way you presented your point when it was frequently debated. When you argue your side it always starts with how you share your everlasting journey in the desert. Followed up with you share more information than any other player on any forum. I strongly feel that you talking about your journey has everything to do with your ego and little thought about the value of such information. Always implying that you are truly one of the great Blackjack contributors on the internet which I know is far from true.

Quote: kewlj

Point is Bosox, TDVegas, I am NOT reavealing any great secrets and if me revealing some of what I do is hurting anyone, it is only me, so lighten up!

Yes, the only thing that is hurting you is your imagination of contributions.

If you need to ask us. Something seems to be holding you back, financially or psychologically.

I have a suspicion, you arent financially ready for vegas. Otherwise youd go without our support.

I havnt played in vegas long enough to know what would happen. But i know that they detected me already.

Quote: BoSox

KJ, this above paragraph is worthy of reflection in that you are stating that what you share in what you do is general public knowledge. I always realized that what you shared wasn't hurting anyone beyond the point of un-realized bragging about beating the cat and mouse game. For me, it was not so much about what you wrote but the way you presented your point when it was frequently debated. When you argue your side it always starts with how you share your everlasting journey in the desert. Followed up with you share more information than any other player on any forum. I strongly feel that you talking about your journey has everything to do with your ego and little thought about the value of such information. Always implying that you are truly one of the great Blackjack contributors on the internet which I know is far from true.



Yes, the only thing that is hurting you is your imagination of contributions.

Who has contributed more as far as blackjack goes on this forum or any of the others he's posted on the last decade or so? Can you name ten people who contributed more? I have had my share of problems with him in the past, and may have in the future but I'll give him props when they are due.

Quote: billryan

Who has contributed more as far as blackjack goes on this forum or any of the others he's posted on the last decade or so? Can you name ten people who contributed more? I have had my share of problems with him in the past, and may have in the future but I'll give him props when they are due.

Thanks billryan. I look forward to those future "problems". :) Just kidding.

Who has contributed more as far as blackjack is concerned.

Don S. Norm. Tarzan. Freighter. Gronbog. T3. Bosox. Im sure more will come to mind.

This is like a religion. If you believe? Fine. If you dont believe and say nothing? Who is going to know?

But if you dont believe and say so. There will an endless wrath of vulgarity for every question ask or statement made.

Quote: BoSox

Yes, the only thing that is hurting you is your imagination of contributions.

My imagination of contributions? Really?

Here are a couple quotes from someone we both knew pretty well:

"I still belong to an actual Blackjack forum where KJ was barred. I do not know all of the in's and outs and behind the scenes actions that took place and I don't care. All I know is that forum itself took a huge hit for the worse in the process and as always the remaining membership were the real losers, especially the new players. KJ, has a saying about Vegas BJ games, "what they lack in quality they make up for in quantity" any knowledgeable player knows when it comes to blackjack forums KJ posts are all about quality first. Membership should be glad that he is here, not ttying to encourage him to leave.."

"On regular blackjack boards no one questions KJ results credibility, it is just the opposite, as you cannot bullcrap (edited to pg friendly version of word) your way through that, people would recognize it immediately."

What happened to THAT guy? I miss him! He went from "KJ's post are about quality" to "imaginary contibutions".

Quote: billryan

Who has contributed more as far as blackjack goes on this forum or any of the others he's posted on the last decade or so?

All due respect Mr. Ryan is that a trick question? Otherwise, the question should have been, how many good active Blackjack boards was the man allowed to post. If the remaining boards that he was allowed to post at, what good is it if you only have up to a half dozen or so interested Blackjack members in each remaining board? So obviously your case is very weak, not to mention your understanding of just what information is valuable or not.

Quote: kewlj

My imagination of contributions? Really?

Here are a couple quotes from someone we both knew pretty well:

"I still belong to an actual Blackjack forum where KJ was barred. I do not know all of the in's and outs and behind the scenes actions that took place and I don't care. All I know is that forum itself took a huge hit for the worse in the process and as always the remaining membership were the real losers, especially the new players. KJ, has a saying about Vegas BJ games, "what they lack in quality they make up for in quantity" any knowledgeable player knows when it comes to blackjack forums KJ posts are all about quality first. Membership should be glad that he is here, not ttying to encourage him to leave.."

"On regular blackjack boards no one questions KJ results credibility, it is just the opposite, as you cannot bullcrap (edited to pg friendly version of word) your way through that, people would recognize it immediately."

What happened to THAT guy? I miss him! He went from "KJ's post are about quality" to "imaginary contibutions".

Damn, those two posts must have been made at least a decade ago. Personalities change especially yours, going from being humble to being a Pro player with all the supposed right answers. Besides those two post was more about my anger for the decision made of only barring you and not including the other individual.

I apologize in advance that this will be long.

Look fellas, it is really this simple. 14 years ago I first joined a blackjack gambling forum. Several years later, in 2008, I decided I would share my journey. I said something to the effect that I was not a great mathematical mind, like Don S, and some of the other great BJ minds on that forum. I was not going to share any in depth mathamatics to the game. And there wasn't that much new to share anyway. So I was joing to share my journey, Playing with what I had learned from others, applying some of my own twists.

The timing was important because, the movie "21" came out that year and there was a lot of misinformation about what a card counter was and what kind of money they could make that were wrongly influencing some newer players. I think 2008 was my first 50k+ year, and I'll be honest, I thought that was about the ceiling. I knew there was a cap because if you go beyond a certain level of play, where you could make more, you weren't going to be allowed to play.

So I was wrong about exactly what the cap was and still acheive some sort of longevity. Turns out it is a little bit higher, (upper 5 figures). But, THAT was the whole idea to share my journey as I went through it in real time or close to real time and show just what kind of money a mid level card counter playing for longevity can make and the monster variance, along the way. And to share what kind of things I do to acheive that longevity.

I wanted newer players to see what making a living from card counting REALLY was, not that version from the movie and books that about the MIT team that were out at that time.

So 13 years later, I am proud that I have done that. And am still doing that. Last year I shared a very tough year. Covid aside, I made 14k vs expectation of 80 thousand. WAY under expectation for my play. My worst year in 12 in Las vegas. My worst year since way back year 3 when I was playing red chip. No other player has shared things like that. I share what I call the good, the bad and the ugly of being a card counter for a living. I have shared the monster negative swings lasting months and months. I have had 5 that lasted 5-6 months. I have shared the back offs and there were plenty my first few years in Vegas. That was part of the learning process of learning what is tolerated and what isn't.

Some, make that 'many' things I have shared almost in real time, have not been beneficial for me to have shared. But that is what I said I was going to do and that is what I have done, on whatever forum I have been on. And I make no apologies for that.

I know people have followed me from forum to forum, during this last 5 years when I bumped around, if only to read, on some forums. But I really never thought I was encouraging anyone to follow what I was doing. If anything, I thought showing them what it was really like would be discouraging and turn them off. That it was not the easy riches of the movies and some documentaries. Anyone that I engaged with and asked, I ALWAYS advised against. So if some players chose that path anyway, that is on them. I never encouraged anyone. I did and am still doing EXACTLY what I said I would do and set out to do. I don't know why all of the sudden people are getting bent out of shape about it.

Quote: BoSox

Damn, those posts must have been made at least a decade ago. Personalities change especially yours, going from being humble to being a Pro player with all the supposed right answers.

2019. 2 years ago.

Quote: kewlj

2019. 2 years ago.

If true I must have been the first person who came down with the corona virus.
Ps, KJ, the above quote of me in your last post was edited which you may have missed.

Quote: moses

Who has contributed more as far as blackjack is concerned.

Don S. Norm. Tarzan. Freighter. Gronbog. T3. Bosox. Im sure more will come to mind.

Are you serious? T3? just that inclusion is laughable.

Don and Norm are blackjack legends both of who I have great respect for as far as blackjack. I don't know where I would be without Norm's software. I consider myself a Don Schlesinger disiple. He has taught me more than any other person. Not sure how much either plays in this day and age or even last 20 years and THAT is what this discussion is about.....current conditions.

Gronbog, freightman, Tarzan, some of those guys I talked about that are strong math guys. I would have doghand at or near the top of that list. Not to disparage Tarzan, but not sure if you know that when Tarzan came to Las Vegas and met with Wizard, Mike dismissed his "tarzan count' as a parlor trick, I beleive was the term he used. Basically saying it is not really applicable or adds much to todays game and conditions. Kind of like a column count. That is not how you win today. :/

Bosox? I consider Bosox a friend, through all of this. You are mentioning him as a brown nose thing. I don't know Bosox story. He doesn't share much. Was or is he a fulltime player? I don't know. A recent private conversation with him about a "swing" he had makes it seem like he doesn't play very high stakes. Not that, that would matter. There are many lesser stakes players with great knowledge and play.

But your list is just goofy and I believe insincere.

Quote: kewlj

A recent private conversation with him about a "swing" he had makes it seem like he doesn't play very high stakes. Not that, that would matter. There are many lesser stakes players with great knowledge and play.

Okay, you are messing with me, and you KNOW that the conversation was just the opposite of what you just stated. That I do not in fact play low stakes, but go ahead and have your fun.

You dont get to be credible in one area. And a liar in another. You are nowhere close to the league of names I mentioned

You turn it into a congenality contest because is the only way you can win. Look at all the naysayers in this thread alone. You fight everyone of them with a long dramatic diatribe.

If someone doesnt believe you. So what? Are you so weak that your ego needs constant stroking?

Really? This has been going on for 8 years at least. What is wrong with you?

I picked up two things from Bosox. Insurance. Frequency of large bets. Do I do what he does? Goodness no. But I looked at so many different ways to integrate it into my game.

Quote: moses

You are nowhere close to the league of names I mentioned

Please quote where I ever compared myself to these folk or anyone. I share MY journey. That is all I have ever done. I am not competeing with you or anyone you dream up. I compete with myself and the goals I set.

I don't know you keep mentioning 8 years. I have been on forums and sharing my story for 15, since 2006 I beleive. Maybe you have been on these forums for 8. ??? Is that all it has been because it seems like you have been AT me for decades.

If I am being honest, I haven't believed your story since day 1. I don't call out everyone that I don't believe, only those that the math doesn't work. Your math is fine, it is the stakes that don't work. A player can not play high enough stakes in Reno to make a living for a decade. I Know because I play Reno several times a year. Reno is a low limit town. A player playing black stakes can roll into town a couple times a year for a weekend and get some play down. Someone saying they get that kind of play down regularly for 10 years is not being factual. I suspect you are a low limit player. I am not calling you a liar, just telling you what I think just as you have REPEATEDLY told me you don't beleive me for I guess 8 years now.

I never felt the need to reveal that I don't beleive your story, because at least your math made sense and it didn't/doesn't appear that you were harming anyone. But your story can not be as stated at the limits you claim. And I know a little lit about it because I left a place with a minimum number of casinos that I had worn out my welcome. You just cannot play such a place excusively for any meaningful stakes day after day for years. I am not going to discuss it further or anything, that is just the way it is.

Quote: BoSox

Okay, you are messing with me, and you KNOW that the conversation was just the opposite of what you just stated. That I do not in fact play low stakes, but go ahead and have your fun.

I am NOT messing with you. I don't know what stakes you play. (details deleted as per request)

My story? Im not homeless. I dont sleep under a bridge and in a box. Im not an injured Vet. or a Vet. Im not getting welfare or government assistance. I dont bet $10 a game. I never play red chip tables.

All things you've accused and more.

You and Billryan can name the amount you'd like to bet. And I will take it.

You are like the lobster in boiling water.. You have to be better. But you cant. You're weak and scared. So instead of pulling yourself out of the hot water. You try to pull others in with you.

Quote: kewlj

Are you serious? T3? just that inclusion is laughable.

KJ, I am not dismissing Three's ongoing lie pertaining to the Spanish21 story he told for whatever reason. Beyond that even though he often made long posts those posts often included many gems that were worth looking for. Another name that I would include on the list is Flash, or later known as Zen Master Flash even though He and I often did not see eye to eye on things. He was extremely knowledgeable about the game regardless that he started out his career as only a gambler.

Quote: moses

I picked up two things from Bosox. Insurance. Frequency of large bets. Do I do what he does? Goodness no. But I looked at so many different ways to integrate it into my game.

Frequency of large bets? what are you talking about because any simulation will give you frequency of hands by TC, which would be frequency of large bets.

YOU have this bizarre idea that you can win 60% of your large bets. Please tell me that didn't come from Bosox or my opinion of him goes down.

The fact is a blackjack player wins roughly 43% of hands and that number doesn't change much as the count goes up and you get into larger bets. It changes just slightly, very slightly, and most of that change is just a few more blackjacks @ 3:2 payout in Better counts. Just enough to flip a slight disadvantage to a slight advantage. At no time is a player EVER winning more than 50% of bets, (or even close to 50%) large bets, or not, so that idea is just voodoo-ish.

KJ's posts in this thread and most thread are every bit as lengthy as T3s.

He just cant stand the thought people dont believe him.

Quote: kewlj

Frequency of large bets? what are you talking about because any simulation will give you frequency of hands by TC, which would be frequency of large bets.

YOU have this bizarre idea that you can win 60% of your large bets. Please tell me that didn't come from Bosox or my opinion of him goes down.

The fact is a blackjack player wins roughly 43% of hands and that number doesn't change much as the count goes up and you get into larger bets. It changes just slightly, very slightly, and most of that change is just a few more blackjacks @ 3:2 payout in Better counts. Just enough to flip a slight disadvantage to a slight advantage. At no time is a player EVER winning more than 50% of bets, (or even close to 50%) large bets, or not, so that idea is just voodoo-ish.

You will never understand what I do. Your education is too limited and you cant do a spread sheet or think outside your little box.

But you are more than welcome to come on up and play me.

Quote: BoSox

KJ, I am not dismissing Three's ongoing lie pertaining to the Spanish21 story he told for whatever reason. Beyond that even though he often made long posts those posts often included many gems that were worth looking for. Another name that I would include on the list is Flash, or later known as Zen Master Flash even though He and I often did not see eye to eye on things. He was extremely knowledgeable about the game regardless that he started out his career as only a gambler.

No comment.

Quote: moses

You will never understand what I do. Your education is too limited and you cant do a spread sheet or think outside your little box.

Is that what your issue is? I didn't have the opportunity to attend college and I guess you did? And that makes you feel superior, with some sort of need to prove you are better than me or something? That kind of insecurity is just flat out a shame.

canceled

Ok I think we have all has some say here tonight, maybe getting some things off our chest, I see no reason to continue.

fact is this thread was never about what the OP pretended it was and what I qand others answered questions about Las Vegas play in good faith. Maybe consideration should be given to the thread should be closed.

Quote: BoSox

KJ, could you please delete that post as it was told to you in a private message. I did not know that you were actually going to reveal some of that. Shame on you, I also have no desire to share my story that was always part-time.

Done. And that is a shame because I think you are missing an opportunity to share and benefit other, especially newer players. But certainly your right.

Again, you turn it into another version of poor KJ. Always the victim.

I read forums to improve my game. Win better, faster at the table.

Clearly, you post to stroke your ego. But it always has to be about KJ. KJ. KJ.

We even have to hear about your fam. your mom. your style of living. It goes on and on and on. Never stops. Like a chatty Kathy doll. Pull the string and away he goes.

You make up lies about people simply because they dont believe you. Your langauge is offensive and vulgar. And you will NEVER back it up.

That's my issue.

Quote: kewlj

Done. And that is a shame because I think you are missing an opportunity to share and benefit other, especially newer players. But certainly your right.

What newer players? There has been one newbie on this forum in 6 months and he only had questions about basic strategy.

When is the last time a newbie showed up at VCT? GF? When is the last time anyone posted at bjinfo?

Tasha was the last one at BJTF. This is all fantasy. Has nothing to competition of winning.

Quote: kewlj

Ok I think we have all has some say here tonight, maybe getting some things off our chest, I see no reason to continue.

fact is this thread was never about what the OP pretended it was and what I qand others answered questions about Las Vegas play in good faith. Maybe consideration should be given to the thread should be closed.

That is exactly what this thread was about. You can read my mind?

That is an INSULT.

KJ always makes it about him. This particular thread was about a lifestyle change I might consider.

OnceDear. Can you not see how he twists and turns things?

Im going into a full court press. Everytime KJ talks about KJ? I will deflect and tell of his out and out LIES.

KJ is not the only player on this forum.

Quote: kewlj

Frequency of large bets? what are you talking about because any simulation will give you frequency of hands by TC, which would be frequency of large bets.

YOU have this bizarre idea that you can win 60% of your large bets. Please tell me that didn't come from Bosox or my opinion of him goes down.

The fact is a blackjack player wins roughly 43% of hands and that number doesn't change much as the count goes up and you get into larger bets. It changes just slightly, very slightly, and most of that change is just a few more blackjacks @ 3:2 payout in Better counts. Just enough to flip a slight disadvantage to a slight advantage. At no time is a player EVER winning more than 50% of bets, (or even close to 50%) large bets, or not, so that idea is just voodoo-ish.

KJ, you know damn well that Moses is not involved in a true count system, and has developed his own unique way of doing things that neither of us is anywhere near familiar with. When he mentions percentages he is not talking about anything you and I are doing it means different things to him. I do not know his way of doing things so why would you even suggest that I may be involved? You are deliberately trying to get him and me angry. Of course, to you, Moses is always the instigator.

How can I possibly be the instigator here? I started the thread when KJ was banned. Has anyone looked at and considered the volume of times and days that KJ has been suspended here?

My goodness.

Quote: moses

How can I possibly be the instigator here? I started the thread when KJ was banned.

You started this thread immediately after another thread that had my name in the title was closed because you were attacking me, while I was suspended.

As several members immediately recognised and stated, you seemed to be on some kind of crusade against a member (me) that was unable to respond.

And you remain on that crusade today.

Quote: kewlj

You started this thread immediately after another thread that had my name in the title was closed because you were attacking me, while I was suspended.

As several members immediately recognised and stated, you seemed to be on some kind of crusade against a member (me) that was unable to respond.

And you remain on that crusade today.

That's ridiculous. You see everything as an attack because you are so sensitive.

So are we to get permission from a banned member to start a thread? Utter stupidity.

You think It's ALWAYS about you. That's pure paranioa.

Crusade? One of your supporters managed to use God and the C word in the same sentence. Yes, that is really something to be proud of. But one can say anything as long as they are a member of the KJ AP Pro club.
But we are supposed to think he is a Pro. Why? Because YOU said so. We are supposed to think to Billryan is a Pro. Why? Because YOU said so. The list goes on and on.

Several members? See how you over dramatize? Poor Poor KJ. Always the victim.

Most posts have nothing to do with blackjack. Everything a big tado about KJ.

Quote: kewlj

Ok I think we have all has some say here tonight, maybe getting some things off our chest, I see no reason to continue.

Time-out.

Enough! Many times I've said that this squabbling must stop. I've addressed the participants by PM a few times, but they just seem to want to get back to their spat. And now it stops. They can take it elsewhere.

It's a shame really, because without the very personal disagreements, the squabblers each had valuable contributions to make.

Thread closed.
KewlJ and Moses suspended. I haven't decided how long for.