My opinion on a casinos fairness after 7 years of dealing

Quote: TDVegas

randomly intermixed

i apologize for continuing but what does randomly intermixed mean? if the law isnt defined mathematically why even bother? this could mean literally anything. to randomize could mean anything. im talking about limits, max and minimums. the slot machine laws for pa are very specific. My question is why are these laws so "lax". Why do they not define what random is mathematically for one machine but decide that this machine is not worth defining laws for? It could be copy and paste IMO?

Quote: heatmap

i apologize for continuing but what does randomly intermixed mean? if the law isnt defined mathematically why even bother? this could mean literally anything. to randomize could mean anything. im talking about limits, max and minimums. the slot machine laws for pa are very specific. My question is why are these laws so "lax". Why do they not define what random is mathematically for one machine but decide that this machine is not worth defining laws for? It could be copy and paste IMO?

Why would anyone have to define random when the definition already exists. Just because you don't understand what random means, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Why would anyone have to define random when the definition already exists. Just because you don't understand what random means, doesn't mean everyone else doesn't.


ZCore13

Then why do they need a definition to begin with for anything else? Why do they differentiate?

In that’s case they would not talk about confidence levels or periods or anything I truly believe you know the scope of your own work but have no clue about what’s beyond the bubble. I personally think the amount of knowledge may be broad and you can probably tell us about many things but you really do not want to see anything past what makes you useful as a worker. There are ways to do things and you can’t just employ any random number generator. Every single person who describes any random number generators open up by saying “there is no such thing as random”. I respect you for the knowledge and experience you have but you can’t answer every question based on the experience you have. I respect your confidence for thinking you can because I also have that confidence but you also see the stuff I say. Sometimes you think you speak the truth but the confidence gets in the way of questioning whether or not you are right, and it for sure limits your ability to want to go out and google if what you say is true or not. Patents will tell you that people think otherwise than yourself. And the patents will tell you the exact way of how to do what you think is impossible. Sometimes you just have to think about he problem at hand and solve it.

Quote: heatmap

Then why do they need a definition to begin with for anything else? Why do they differentiate?

They don't. The definition already exists. That's how language works. Someone sometime noticed something and then they attached a word to it that ended up sticking. Then, when someone does or incorporates something that falls under that definition, they use the word that describes it.The shuffler manufacturer uses "Random", which means Proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern


ZCore13

How is a shuffling machine worth $80 a day? You could have a BMW for the money. It's pretty damned expensive for a simple task imo. I'd think if the manufactures were to be in some conspiracy, they would not answer direct questions, and if they are not they would. Any kind of direct misrepresentation would be a cause for possible punitive damages. I'd just advise asking them and seeing what they're willing to have in writing.

Quote: Romes

At the end of the day we know pretty much all we need to know:

1) The machines are absolutely capable of identifying each individual card as they shuffle... proof of which is the machine "shuffling" the cards back in to perfect order.
2) Speaking as a programmer, given #1, ANYTHING is then possible with these cards. Whatever you want to call it... "anti-clumping" or "always keep the TC at 0" or whatever you want to call it. That is all absolutely possible...
3) If it's possible... somebody's doing it. The end.

Ah Romes. Another person who frequents this forum for which I have a great deal of respect, but I think in this case you're wearing a tinfoil hat.

I never got detailed answers to my questions about the physical specification of the machine, but I assume that there is some internal physical switch, somewhere, that tells the machine to do a perfect order shuffle v. a random one.

Aside: does the machine have an IP address, making it network-accessible, or is it standalone, requiring someone to physically do something to control its action?

I personally have seen thousands of ASM-dealt shoes. I have seen them run the gamut up to +6 or better. Extremely negative shoes as well, although usually I'm off to the lavatory when they go really bad. A machine that holds the line at +1 or even +2 would be obvious. A casino full of these machines would be more obvious. A company that manufactured such a machine would not get away with it. A single disgruntled employee or one looking for his fifteen minutes of fame would let the cat out of the bag. There would be Youtube videos out there showing exactly how it's done.

Regardless of all of that, and accepting for a moment, as you say, that it's "absolutely possible", so tell me, how's it done? How is the machine jiggered such that it will influence the TC of a deck? I mean - tell me how the hardware - the physical device - is triggered to do that?

Quote: heatmap

i apologize for continuing but what does randomly intermixed mean? if the law isnt defined mathematically why even bother? this could mean literally anything. to randomize could mean anything. im talking about limits, max and minimums. the slot machine laws for pa are very specific. My question is why are these laws so "lax". Why do they not define what random is mathematically for one machine but decide that this machine is not worth defining laws for? It could be copy and paste IMO?

Cmon, man...random means random. You said the only place you saw random in PA gaming bylaws was in relation to electronic games. I gave you the wording for a table game shuffle from PA gaming laws. It's defined. If you are going to play this game of every word has a hidden agenda or potential for hidden agenda...my only advice would be quit. Play games you feel are on the level.

No amount of wording would satisfy you.

Quote: TDVegas

Cmon, man...random means random. You said the only place you saw random in PA gaming bylaws was in relation to electronic games. I gave you the wording for a table game shuffle from PA gaming laws. It's defined. If you are going to play this game of every word has a hidden agenda or potential for hidden agenda...my only advice would be quit. Play games you feel are on the level.

No amount of wording would satisfy you.

The problem is when you actually start reading the shuffle master court documents you start to see that they care about every word. Every single word is cared about when it comes to the power that is received when a patent is enforced. I can’t give these companies leeway if they don’t give us leeway. They care about it so much they won’t give up until the other person gives up. They think time will erode what I consistently see. I personally am sure that in the state of Pennsylvania there is something going on and I can’t say that it is happening in other states but it seems as if the only thing stopping people from saying what I say is lack of knowledge to describe themselves. You have to be a specialist in game theory and computer science to even start understanding that creating games that are better than a human is very possible. But I know you all know that. You guys claim it’s not possible to be in a casino. But I say that it is possible.

I saw one card counter on YouTube who jumped table to table and bet big on clumping patterns.

Quote: heatmap

The problem is when you actually start reading the shuffle master court documents you start to see that they care about every word. Every single word is cared about when it comes to the power that is received when a patent is enforced. I can’t give these companies leeway if they don’t give us leeway. They care about it so much they won’t give up until the other person gives up. They think time will erode what I consistently see. I personally am sure that in the state of Pennsylvania there is something going on and I can’t say that it is happening in other states but it seems as if the only thing stopping people from saying what I say is lack of knowledge to describe themselves. You have to be a specialist in game theory and computer science to even start understanding that creating games that are better than a human is very possible. But I know you all know that. You guys claim it’s not possible to be in a casino. But I say that it is possible.

I still want to know how the machine knows where the player will cut the cards before dealing starts.

Quote: michael99000

I still want to know how the machine knows where the player will cut the cards before dealing starts.

And how many hands someone is playing and when someone might join or leave the table or when a dealer might tap in and burn a card...


ZCore13

Quote: michael99000

I still want to know how the machine knows where the player will cut the cards before dealing starts.

I think it may be likely that they have discovered a pattern.

But if they have not, we are brainstorming free ideas to make the game worse.

Quote: sara312777

Simple, shuffle master uses card counting to always keep the count in the casinos favor without ever counting anything at all. A blackjack starts in a 0 count and ends in a 0 count if no mistakes are made and every card is dealt. A count of 0 is always in the casinos favor and is achievable just by.. well let’s just use shuffle masters own personal description of their product “non card clumping technology.” For example the cards come out in a way that always cancel eachother out regardless of play, hands, or where the deck is cut. (high high high low low neutral neutral high low low) (low high low high high high low low low high.) This is just my personal opinion of shuffle masters blackjack shuffle machines and I have absolutely no proof of anything I said being factual.

So, you're saying that the shufflers arrange the cards in a such a way that the count never strays far from zero? I submit that the house edge would be almost the same between a true randomly shuffled game and the type of neutral count shoe you describe. However, I've never actually simulated this. If I get some serious evidence behind your accusation, I might take the trouble. Until then, I'm going to file this in my very-overstuffed folder labeled casino conspiracy theories.

Quote: Zcore13

And how many hands someone is playing and when someone might join or leave the table or when a dealer might tap in and burn a card...


ZCore13

The rational mind agrees with that, but when you bump your bet because of the count and the dealer pulls three straight multi-card 21s, that little voice in the back of one's mind gets a bit louder.

Quote: michael99000

I still want to know how the machine knows where the player will cut the cards before dealing starts.

If the cut card doesn’t matter and it doesn’t have a function - because the shuffler randomizes the cards thoroughly- what is it’s function to begin with? Why even have it? Is it a superstition? When I say the walks are cyclical, I’m saying the sequences left after the shuffler shuffles the cards mathematically can be divided and rearranged without messing up the sequence. So when a cut happens it’s irrelevant imo.

I know it’s all about penetration but there must be a function ... will it reverse the order of a slug of cards??

Quote: Zcore13

And how many hands someone is playing and when someone might join or leave the table or when a dealer might tap in and burn a card...


ZCore13

You generate the sequence of numbers up to the amount of players you know might be playing which is 7 in most cases. You then play through the hands starting at 7 players and work your way down. Make note of all stats in a database. Generate more hands and keep taking stats into database. Only gather hands from that database but make sure the amount of payout from the shuffles that are in the database comply with payout percentages. (If random is random and can be anything I don’t believe the last step is necessary. Query the database when you want for exactly specific amount of house edge you want. Profit.

Quote: heatmap

If the cut card doesn’t matter and it doesn’t have a function - because the shuffler randomizes the cards thoroughly- what is it’s function to begin with?

Imagine all the tin foil people would go through if a player DIDN'T cut the deck! It's random before the deck is cut, and it's random after the deck is cut. But allowing the players to have the last action of the shuffle eliminates a lot of conspiracy theories.

Quote: billryan

The rational mind agrees with that, but when you bump your bet because of the count and the dealer pulls three straight multi-card 21s, that little voice in the back of one's mind gets a bit louder.

Not if you're sensible and know how cards work.


ZCore13

Quote: heatmap

You generate the sequence of numbers up to the amount of players you know might be playing which is 7 in most cases. You then play through the hands starting at 7 players and work your way down. Make note of all stats in a database. Generate more hands and keep taking stats into database. Only gather hands from that database but make sure the amount of payout from the shuffles that are in the database comply with payout percentages. (If random is random and can be anything I don’t believe the last step is necessary. Query the database when you want for exactly specific amount of house edge you want. Profit.

Not even worth replying an answer to.


ZCore

Wasn't there some semi credible rumors going around that there was something weird going on with the shuffle machines at the El Cortez and a few other places where some Advantage players were taking advantage of the situation. Meanwhile someone outed the situation because they were doing very bad at those particular tables? I think some people actually got upset at that guy for even mentioning it in the first place because it may have killed their opportunity? I can't remember what happened with all that, but I think Mike was even asked to check it out?

Was there any further information on this, perhaps somebody credible can come and let us know what the deal was with all that?

Quote: Zcore13

Not even worth replying an answer to.


ZCore

Here’s the thing with not wanting a definition of random. What I just said is valid. If you had a legal definition of random I couldn’t just ramble away nonsense.

Quote: heatmap

Here’s the thing with not wanting a definition of random. What I just said is valid. If you had a legal definition of random I couldn’t just ramble away nonsense.

I can imagine there would be some possibility if the system was corrupted. Imagine this disease, if you could take all the deaths and switch them to different people, it would seem the same, but we would know it was different yet still random.You can imagine the cards not even changing but arranged in a pattern to trigger choices from players, etc. Random is not always the same. This is all theoretical and conjecture, but ideas how a change in randomness can have a different result because people are predictable. If you just test the cards or whatever random factors, you won't see it because it won't be tested against human beings.

From stocks, I can imagine certain chart patterns might elicit a response from many people and if somehow high frequency traders could manipulate things some times, it could lead to selling or buying patterns. The chart might appear random, but maybe it's not. To say things are not possible is just an admission of no imagination or indoctrination. Don't seek the approval from the blind.

I was playing my home game of blackjack the other night. Started with $20K or 25 bet units; lost 20 bet units and was down to $3K; then won nearly 50 bet units back and got to almost $150K; then lost back to $100K and quit.

If I'm going to be making bets above the posted limits of a normal casino, like if I was in the high roller room, I'd need a line of credit of about $2 million to be following my progressions to an $80K bet at the 10 in a row win mark. My play doesn't demand I need a LOC at all to bet that high though, it's just a casino rule to keep the bets lower unless backed by a LOC?

Quote: heatmap

Here’s the thing with not wanting a definition of random. What I just said is valid. If you had a legal definition of random I couldn’t just ramble away nonsense.

Supply your own "legal" definition that goes further than "cards are randomly intermixed"....

Shuffle co. wouldn't need to tell any casino person such a feature. When salesmen come to our office they usually give some other theoretical reason why we will save money if we switch to a more expensive hand pump bleach, floor soap packets, or Point of sale.

I can imagine a saleman telling the supervisor to try out the machines and see how much profit increases. Once, they see a profit increase, no one will need to know if such a feature exists.

Many shuffler machines have an optical ID capability that identifies the rank and suit of each card that comes in and/or is dealt. And in some live-action poker games, the cards have an RFID chip that allows them to be identified by scanners on the table..

Just as a matter of mathematical fact almost any BJ or poker variant table game can be fixed by controlling the cards of the dealer -it is not necessary to wittingly change the cards of any individual player.

In a game like Miss Stud (where the dealer doesn't have a hand), you need only change one of the three common cards (making it be a 2-5) to massively increase the house edge. The common cards in MSST are delivered from the shuffler as a packet of 3 cards (I believe) which must mean the machine is aware that they are the house cards.

Question for Zcore13: Do you have any knowledge of shuffler machines used in foreign countries? Are they Shufflemaster machines? Do you have any basis for confidence in the integrity of shuffler machines used in Russia? In Chile? In Africa?

Quote: jjjoooggg

Shuffle co. wouldn't need to tell any casino person such a feature. When salesmen come to our office they usually give some other theoretical reason why we will save money if we switch to a more expensive hand pump bleach, floor soap packets, or Point of sale.

I can imagine a saleman telling the supervisor to try out the machines and see how much profit increases. Once, they see a profit increase, no one will need to know if such a feature exists.

You're forgetting about the 3rd party certification (GLI most the the time), digital signature and Reguletory verification when machines are received. No shuffler goes from Shufflemaster to floor like you describe without multiple compliance checks between.


ZCore13

Quote: gordonm888

Question for Zcore13: Do you have any knowledge of shuffler machines used in foreign countries? Are they Shufflemaster machines? Do you have any basis for confidence in the integrity of shuffler machines used in Russia? In Chile? In Africa?

I have no experience with foreign Countries and I do not include them as part of anything I say. I would not trust them, wouldn't play at any of them and do not know anything about their machines or compliance rules.


ZCore13

I recall the card reader is also used to catch cheaters slipping cards into and out of the shoe. This is plausible deniability.

It would be in the best interests of the casino and shuffle co., if no one including the casino owner knew of this feature.

I think the R&D would be too expensive or worth the effort for a shuffling co. When they make enough selling the labor savings feature alone.

First off I am sticking to this same story :

At the top of GLIs website it states :

https://gaminglabs.com/gli-standards/

GLI Standards
GLI’s business is to test, review and report on gaming devices and systems against the standards established by relevant gaming jurisdictions worldwide. Each jurisdiction has the authority to set their own standards; however, many use our standards as a starting point in developing their regulations.

Ive said that before. Notice how it says starting point in developing their regulations. The process is for sure rigorous to get anything through them. But to me they have this specific statement at the top of their website, and have had it there for a while, to make sure that you do not make the mistake of going to THEM first as any type of legal resource. You can not count on any of it and that they will be testing for specific things if it is not defined legally in the jurisdiction...

Second off, I have told you my little story about me almost being kicked out of sands/wind creek. But the one thing I may have left out was that in the emotional state that the lady was in, I didn't have much time so I made a quick reference to this letter

https://gamingcontrolboard.pa.gov/files/regulations/Proposed_Rulemakings_125-137_Shuffle_Master_Public_Comment.pdf

in which I purposely misquoted, and I said that the law specifically says that the shufflers have the ability to " provide any information that can be used to aid a patron in the projecting of the outcome of a game, tracking of the cards played and cards remaining to be played, analyzing the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to a game, or analyzing the strategy for playing or betting to be used in a game"

in her emotional state she actually admitted to me that they IN FACT do have the ability to do these exact things, but DO NOT use them for nefarious reasons. It is actually the BACCARAT SHOES that can do this apparently on the FLY.

Now take a look at the update law for PA shuffler machines. Notice how ONE word has been added and that is that she shuffling machines cannot aide a PATRON in any of this stuff. But the casino IMO is now excluded, and can do anything they want.

https://casetext.com/regulation/pennsylvania-code-rules-and-regulations/title-58-recreation/part-vii-gaming-control-board/subpart-k-table-games/chapter-603a-table-game-equipment/section-603a17-dealing-shoes-automated-card-shuffling-devices

But to me this is the clear indication of what they have the ability to do IMO.

500 /month doesn't seem enough to compensate for the R&D cost of this feature.

We'd have to presume that either the shuffle co. or the casinos are grasping at straws to make a profit. I can't imagine a shuffle co. or casino doing this.

Quote: racquet

Ah Romes. Another person who frequents this forum for which I have a great deal of respect, but I think in this case you're wearing a tinfoil hat.

...Regardless of all of that, and accepting for a moment, as you say, that it's "absolutely possible", so tell me, how's it done? How is the machine jiggered such that it will influence the TC of a deck? I mean - tell me how the hardware - the physical device - is triggered to do that?

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

I do know for an absolute fact the machines can identify each individual card. I've had PB's show me. They took a deck, took out the 7d, and put the deck in the shuffler. The shuffler came back red light with 2 errors: 1) Card Missing, 51 cards. 2) 7d Missing. It identified the exact card by knowing all of the other cards.

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count. Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" cards, just TC. Then if clumps exist break them up or "reshuffle" them (is what I'd call it) until there isn't a clump and the high/low cards are evenly distributed. Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!" You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

The casinos don't have a reason to cheat if all the games are in their edge... then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again? Again, not EVERY casino cheats, but yes, yes some do. Now you're telling me they can legally do it through programming and preferential shuffling and you think they're NOT going to capitalize or take advantage of that? Fat chance...

Quote: Romes

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

I do know for an absolute fact the machines can identify each individual card. I've had PB's show me. They took a deck, took out the 7d, and put the deck in the shuffler. The shuffler came back red light with 2 errors: 1) Card Missing, 51 cards. 2) 7d Missing. It identified the exact card by knowing all of the other cards.

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count. Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" cards, just TC. Then if clumps exist break them up or "reshuffle" them (is what I'd call it) until there isn't a clump and the high/low cards are evenly distributed. Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!" You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

The casinos don't have a reason to cheat if all the games are in their edge... then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again? Again, not EVERY casino cheats, but yes, yes some do. Now you're telling me they can legally do it through programming and preferential shuffling and you think they're NOT going to capitalize or take advantage of that? Fat chance...

If a player became aware that the count on every 10 cards was near 0, and that the shoe was free of clumps, that could be turned around in their favor. Sit at third base. You get to see about 10-15 cards before you have to play your hand. If the count on those cards is high or low by a decent amount , you know your cards you draw should even things out.
Could make a difference with playing 8-8, taking insurance or not, playing a 16 hand..

Quote: Romes

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

I do know for an absolute fact the machines can identify each individual card. I've had PB's show me. They took a deck, took out the 7d, and put the deck in the shuffler. The shuffler came back red light with 2 errors: 1) Card Missing, 51 cards. 2) 7d Missing. It identified the exact card by knowing all of the other cards.

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count. Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" cards, just TC. Then if clumps exist break them up or "reshuffle" them (is what I'd call it) until there isn't a clump and the high/low cards are evenly distributed. Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!" You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

The casinos don't have a reason to cheat if all the games are in their edge... then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again? Again, not EVERY casino cheats, but yes, yes some do. Now you're telling me they can legally do it through programming and preferential shuffling and you think they're NOT going to capitalize or take advantage of that? Fat chance...

Listening to this sure strengthens my belief that the casinos (dice manufacturers) have the ability to cheat the game of craps too. If they will do it in one game, why not all games... All of the people here, who vehemently defend the casinos when anyone brings up cheating, are either naive or in on the gig.

Quote: WatchMeWin

.. All of the people here, who vehemently defend the casinos when anyone brings up cheating, are either naive or in on the gig.

I think if you listen to the people here that actually have knowledge of casino programming and regulatory oversight, they are the ones saying it is unlikely. It tends to be the naive people that believe the cheating is sponsored and done by the casino.

I've seen a 60 year old lady who could be a card mechanic doing hand shuffles on 6 decks and giving herself 5 Blackjacks in a row at the top of a shoe.

The statisticians here could say a 0 count is the same as video Blackjack with no deck memory. They could also say the variance gets ripped up so you have not so low lows and not so high highs. I'd demand to get paid 3:1 on a Blackjack if that's how it's played, but we get 6:5 instead.

Quote: Romes

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

The story here is that the machine is built to declump, not that a casino could do it if they wanted. This is conspiracy theory gone wild : Shufflemaster has built a machine that does this, and all the casinos are in on it, and Shufflemaster markets its machine as such.

Quote: Romes

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count.

I'm a former programmer myself, and for sure if you gave us access to the software, we could program one machine to do this. And yes, someone not as clever as us, but with the contacts to get inside one of these machines could do it. But across an entire casino? Throughout the industry? This thread is not about a single machine, or some or all of the machines in one casino.

Quote: Romes

Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!"

This is not a digital activity. Shuffling is not something you can speed up. Shuffle as fast as you can, and "shuffle more and more?" What's going on until the machine decides, after how many shuffles? ten? fifty? that it's finally come up, randomly, with a neutral deck? No Moore's Law here. A faster CPU is not going to reduce the time it takes to "shuffle more and more."

Quote: Romes

You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

Romes, I never thought that you had fallen for the theory that number of players at the table, and whether or not they take an "average" number of cards made any difference in your "luck". For this deception to work, it couldn't be sold to the casinos as something that only worked at a table of 3 players taking 2.5 cards, or any other combination. Again, Shufflemaster is supposedly engaged in a Grand Conspiracy. So they undertake this plan, but it'll only work if you closely manage the number of players and their tendency to take only so many cards?

Quote: Romes

...then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again?

Personally I've been playing Blackjack since 1978. Never saw cheating. Never heard of cheating. Time and again? List a few.

Quote: DRich

I think if you listen to the people here that actually have knowledge of casino programming and regulatory oversight, they are the ones saying it is unlikely. It tends to be the naive people that believe the cheating is sponsored and done by the casino.

Someone sometimes being right like this is less dangerous than you being sometimes wrong. It's a big world, we're a corrupt nation.

Why would a shuffle co. divulge this feature to any casino employee. The profit increases speak for themselves under the guise of faster shuffling and more play.

I would think that a programmer could program the machines to do what they want. Yet clumping and zero count won't make much difference in profit. But thwart card counters.

Quote: Romes

I'm not saying each and every casino is doing this and that CSM's are all "rigged for sure" or anything like that.

I do know for an absolute fact the machines can identify each individual card. I've had PB's show me. They took a deck, took out the 7d, and put the deck in the shuffler. The shuffler came back red light with 2 errors: 1) Card Missing, 51 cards. 2) 7d Missing. It identified the exact card by knowing all of the other cards.

As a programmer, I myself could program the machine to keep a balanced count. Have it shuffle "randomly" and check for "clumps" where I'm not even identifying "exact" cards, just TC. Then if clumps exist break them up or "reshuffle" them (is what I'd call it) until there isn't a clump and the high/low cards are evenly distributed. Notice I did nothing but "shuffle more and more" so you can't say I'm cherry picking cards or moving individual cards, so "random!" You could go one step further... if you think there are "on average" 3 players at the table and each player gets 2.5 cards "on average" plus the dealer, that makes 10 cards per round on average. Thus, I could have it check for these "clumps" every 10 cards... and make every 10 cards or so balance out to TC = 0. Sure it might be off by 1 or two pending players, cards drawn, etc, but overall this would work and be effective.

The casinos don't have a reason to cheat if all the games are in their edge... then why in our history with them have they been caught cheating time and time again? Again, not EVERY casino cheats, but yes, yes some do. Now you're telling me they can legally do it through programming and preferential shuffling and you think they're NOT going to capitalize or take advantage of that? Fat chance...

I'm going to push back on this a little bit, as a contractor to SHFL/SGI. I'm outside the loop, so can't claim authority, but here's my understanding.

1. CAN the shuffler read the cards? Yes. If you watch closely when they bring in new decks, you will see them rip a test card that has yellow, blue marks as well as red and black. The cards are marked with yellow printed under/over the red/black ink, that the scanner can see but the eye doesn't distinguish. Not sure how the blue figures in, but probably for the ink lineup in the court ranks.

2. DOES the shuffler read the cards? Yes, it does, but that is not reported to the chip unless

A.. There is a card error detected, as Romes mentioned.

B. The shuffler is in card sort mode.

C. The game is asked to determine the House hand, as in PGP with a connected dealer designation number.

In A. The report only goes thru after a trouble report ("red light") which, by procedure, is a dead-hand deal. They must keep voiding and recycling the hand until they get a green light deal.

The detection also happens if the right amount of cards are in the machine, but there is a duplicate card. This prevents someone from substituting, say, an Ace for a Five, even if the backs match. I'm not 100% sure whether there is a unique deck ID in hidden ink, or if it's tracking by individual card, but it can tell.

In B. The shuffler must be MANUALLY keyed, usually by a PB, into Sort mode. It can ONLY sort the deck, not clump or preferential shuffle by rank or value.

In C. The info is READ-ONLY. the dealer can ask it for ANY hand, and it will display what's in that hand by the best houseway low hand. Tables that use the hand display, use it not just for the dealer's hand, but for setting any player's hand house way.

The reader sees the hands as they are dealt into packets, AFTER they are randomized, and AFTER the separate random number is selected for first hand. It THEN calculates optimum house way.

3. The Software CAN be programmed to cheat, given the capabilities. But it is NOT. It would destroy a multi-billion dollar business to allow any case of this, so they don't. There are elaborate procedures to protect against this happening, with independent checks, physical sealing of the eprom chips into the motherboards, periodic audits, and other safeguards I don't know about.

If the cheating was enabled within the shuffler company, as I said, they would be out of business in a month or so. If it were at the casino level, the audits and servicing would discover it, and steep penalties or loss of license would follow.

It's simply not worth it, with all games -ev in the first place, and the casino playing in the long run, to cheat with the shufflers. They don't. But it makes for a persuasive conspiracy theory when a whole table or personal game is in runbad.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm going to push back on this a little bit, as a contractor to SHFL/SGI. I'm outside the loop, so can't claim authority, but here's my understanding.

The whole premise of this thread, at least when it started, was that ShuffleMaster markets the machine as a "declumper" and that this ability created less variability, meaning less volatile TC. Whether it could be hacked, whether anyone could hack it, whatever could be done to the machine after it left the factory or in the backroom of the evil casino that wanted to hack it... the company sold it as something that had "declumping technology" embedded.

There followed here an attempt to define "declumping", from, essentially, creating a deck with an unvarying, very low, TC, to the concept of randomly mixing the cards while shuffling such that any previous "clump" of cards from a previous deck would be broken up, without regard to the values of the cards themselves.

Nobody, including charter members of the Alcoa Haberdasher's Guild, has presented any proof that the initial idea is true. I'm not sure, but I don't even think the OP has come back to visit his post and defend this idea.

Well-respected contributors to this forum (ZCore, BBB, others...) generally agree that there's nothing going on here.

Case closed at this point? It is for me. If I ever get back into a casino, the ASM will not be something I think is working against me.

Beast mode strikes again. :-)

Gambling is supposed to be enjoyable, fun. If you add into your head "being cheated"....you likely are not enjoying gambling. In that case, why bother?

If you do have that thought in your head AND you are enjoying gambling....my advice would be to seek counseling.

These threads really allow the people who know nothing about the gaming industry, but claim to on this forum, rise to the top and reveal themselves.

Quote: SM777

These threads really allow the people who know nothing about the gaming industry, but claim to on this forum, rise to the top and reveal themselves.

You get someone stirring up crap, making a post and not returning and that wakes up the one that reads patents and thinks just because something could conceivably be done, it is. Then add in the paranoid card counters and conspiracy theory champs and you get your run of the mill, every 6 month, shuffler beast mode discussion.


ZCore13

Then you also get the ones who say if the gaming laws don’t specifically say “you can’t do something”.....it means you legally can.

And the guys who have worked in like two casinos and talk down to everyone authoritatively about how every casino everywhere operates.

Y'all are closing in on the rude line from all directions. It's a discussion worth having, so let's not spoil it with dung - flinging, please. Thanks.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I'm not 100% sure whether there is a unique deck ID in hidden ink, or if it's tracking by individual card, but it can tell.

have you ever seen some of the videos of Persi Diaconis shuffling and when he writes the word RANDOM on the side of the deck and as hes shuffling it gets blurrier and then the word repeats but is smaller as the shuffle gets more random? im pretty sure its on the edge of the decks because if someone were to catch on to hidden ink on the faces of the cards it would be much easier to discern rather than the side which is like a barcode most likely if it has hidden ink...

Quote: beachbumbabs

In C. The info is READ-ONLY. the dealer can ask it for ANY hand, and it will display what's in that hand by the best houseway low hand. Tables that use the hand display, use it not just for the dealer's hand, but for setting any player's hand house way.

is this tied to ASMs? or is this the Inteli-shoes or whatever they are called after the hand is dealt? Or can this be done before as well?

Quote: beachbumbabs

3. The Software CAN be programmed to cheat, given the capabilities. But it is NOT. It would destroy a multi-billion dollar business to allow any case of this, so they don't. There are elaborate procedures to protect against this happening, with independent checks, physical sealing of the eprom chips into the motherboards, periodic audits, and other safeguards I don't know about.

pseudo random number generators?