Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 2:41:06 PM permalink
Yesterday I signed up to Bovada to play online blackjack recreationally. I was using the Oscar's Grind system to either make $1000 or deplete bankroll, whichever came first... using $5 units and starting with a bankroll of 300 units. I chose Bovada because it was supposedly one of the more reputable site. However after last night I'm not so sure.


Last night's session went 14-40, culminating in a 3-26 run losing. I understand losing streaks and bad runs happen. I get it. What I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is how I can suffer so many bad beats (not sure if this is the right terminology... I'm a sports better so bare with me) during that run. Dealer hits 21 to my 20, 19, 18, etc (happened 8x during the 3-26 run and 12x during the night session). Just about all other losses either the dealer hits 20 to my 19, 19 to my 18, etc or is showing a 10 card to my 12,13,14, etc which playing basic strategy as I was, I hit and end up busting on majority if not all these hands.


I know what happened last night is unlikely but possible. My question is more along the lines of just how unlikely was it that this happened (losing run combined with way i continually kept losing)? I've played BJ recreationally using basic strategy here and there throughout the years and never had that type of run with all those bad beats. And the one day I play at an online casino (I literally signed up within 24 hours) this happens! It makes me incredibly suspicious that I'm not playing a fair game. Sure this site says they're reputable but how can anyone really 100% know if these games are legit with no regulation? If a player is winning (as I had been during 2 previous session) who's to say that the code can't be altered to rig it?

I want to be as objective as possible but it's hard right now. Which is why I'm posting this here to gain some insight as to how unlikely last night's events were. Many of you are not only very experienced but very mathematically inclined so hopefully some of you can chime in.


Here is a log of the hands from last night's session. I can't paste it as a link since I'm new here but if you highlight the broken up link below and paste it, the document will come up.


docs.

google.

com

/document/d/1bAuJbVKpWRnQaodsJ_V9UUVFtwsiwSUuOphqlQNKvSY/edit?usp=sharing
FleaStiff
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July 21st, 2019 at 3:38:25 PM permalink
Quote: Rio

Yesterday I signed up to Bovada to play online blackjack recreationally.

Good. Enjoy it. If it ain't legit there then it ain't legit anywhere.
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 4:37:57 PM permalink
Really hard to enjoy going 3-26 losing the way I continually did.

Perhaps you didn't read the full post and just replied after the first sentence?
FleaStiff
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July 21st, 2019 at 5:29:49 PM permalink
You had a legitimate game. If you had won each and every hand would you be complaining about the unusual results?
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 6:02:24 PM permalink
If I won 26 out of 29 and won the way I lost I'd certainly remember it. However in all my years of gambling sports or in brick/mortar casinos this never happened especially in the manner it happened.

Unfortunately you have nothing to add other then to say the game was legit just because...

Thanks for your opinion regardless.


Hopefully others will answer the questions specifically mentioned in the op which is what I'm looking for..
AxelWolf
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July 21st, 2019 at 6:10:21 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

You had a legitimate game. If you had won each and every hand would you be complaining about the unusual results?

NVM his records. Why is it you think he had a legit game?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
SOOPOO
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July 21st, 2019 at 6:44:53 PM permalink
I know it won't come to anything, but send a pm to our host, the Wizard. Bovada is an advertiser on this site, and the Wiz has offered to help with any disagreements or problems with any of the sites that advertise here. My guess is he will tell you that there is not enough evidence to conclude that the game was rigged against you, and that you were just on the unlucky side of variance. But he will probably analyze your results and tell you how many standard deviations from the norm your results were.

I have a personal distrust for the entire off shore pseudo regulated online casino industry. I couldn't imagine sending them $1500 of my hard earned money in the hope I'd find a fair game.
michael99000
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July 21st, 2019 at 7:15:17 PM permalink
I can say almost for certain, that in live blackjack at a casino I’ve definitely had 3 win, 26 loss runs over a 29 hand stretch many times. Maybe even worse than that.
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 7:30:43 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

I know it won't come to anything, but send a pm to our host, the Wizard. Bovada is an advertiser on this site, and the Wiz has offered to help with any disagreements or problems with any of the sites that advertise here. My guess is he will tell you that there is not enough evidence to conclude that the game was rigged against you, and that you were just on the unlucky side of variance. But he will probably analyze your results and tell you how many standard deviations from the norm your results were.

I have a personal distrust for the entire off shore pseudo regulated online casino industry. I couldn't imagine sending them $1500 of my hard earned money in the hope I'd find a fair game.




I'm sure it won't come to anything either because you could lose 50 in a row and they can still chalk it up to variance. However I'd be curious to know how many standard deviations from the norm the results were so I'll think I'll take up your advice. Thanks for that.


I have a distrust for online casinos as well but I suppose I wanted to believe Bovada was legitimate based on what I read from Wizard Of Odds. At least I only lost half my deposited roll so all was not lost.
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 7:40:26 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

I can say almost for certain, that in live blackjack at a casino I’ve definitely had 3 win, 26 loss runs over a 29 hand stretch many times. Maybe even worse than that.




It wasn't just the bad stretch but the manner in which I kept losing that has me questioning it. During your bad stretches did you consistently lose the way in which I descried in the OP?
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 7:47:18 PM permalink
Thing is (putting my results aside) how do we know these online casinos are offering legit games? Just because they say so? I don't know if they are under any sort of regulation and even if they were, licensing bodies and govt agencies from those tiny Caribbean countries tend to be so corrupt it means nothing anyways.
michael99000
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July 21st, 2019 at 8:29:50 PM permalink
Quote: Rio

It wasn't just the bad stretch but the manner in which I kept losing that has me questioning it. During your bad stretches did you consistently lose the way in which I descried in the OP?




The strange thing about that is , if they were going to rig the game, why would they also make it be all gut wrenching annoying type of losses? If they are rigging it to begin with , than there’s no reason for them to make their customers even more angry.
FleaStiff
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July 21st, 2019 at 8:57:15 PM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO


I have a personal distrust for the entire off shore pseudo regulated online casino industry.

So do I. Without bricks and a license they have nothing to lose but it does seem that a few have decided that honesty is profitable and until they are caught it seems 'okay' to rely on them.
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 9:10:33 PM permalink
Quote: michael99000

The strange thing about that is , if they were going to rig the game, why would they also make it be all gut wrenching annoying type of losses? If they are rigging it to begin with , than there’s no reason for them to make their customers even more angry.



That's a fair point and one I thought of as well. If rig a game better to do is slowly and more imperceptibly.


I was playing using Oscar's grind. And although it's -ev in the long term, in the short term with a reasonable target profit and a deep enough roll one can be playing a very long while before one potentially loses a sequence, thus taking home a profit. The progressive betting strategy is easy to detect and special code can be written in to stop it early in it's tracks after winning sessions are detected.

This is obviously pure speculation as any other reason I come up with would be...
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 9:23:37 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

So do I. Without bricks and a license they have nothing to lose but it does seem that a few have decided that honesty is profitable and until they are caught it seems 'okay' to rely on them.



Are you equating honesty to never being caught cheating? That's your argument as to how they're legitimate?

Ok.
bobbartop
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July 21st, 2019 at 10:31:56 PM permalink
Quote: Rio

Yesterday I signed up to Bovada to play online blackjack recreationally. I was using the Oscar's Grind system to either make $1000 or deplete bankroll, whichever came first... using $5 units and starting with a bankroll of 300 units. I chose Bovada because it was supposedly one of the more reputable site. However after last night I'm not so sure.


Last night's session went 14-40, culminating in a 3-26 run losing. I understand losing streaks and bad runs happen. I get it. What I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is how I can suffer so many bad beats (not sure if this is the right terminology... I'm a sports better so bare with me) during that run. Dealer hits 21 to my 20, 19, 18, etc (happened 8x during the 3-26 run and 12x during the night session). Just about all other losses either the dealer hits 20 to my 19, 19 to my 18, etc or is showing a 10 card to my 12,13,14, etc which playing basic strategy as I was, I hit and end up busting on majority if not all these hands.




You ain't said nuthing out of the ordinary. That sh*t happens to me every week or so, you don't hear me crying.

Get a job.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
OnceDear
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July 21st, 2019 at 10:34:33 PM permalink
Hi Rio,
Welcome to the forum.

As a courtesy, here's the link to your doc.

You were wiped out by a streak of 14 lost hands. That's a bummer, but it happens.

I take it this was their RNG Blackjack?
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 10:47:17 PM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

You ain't said nuthing out of the ordinary. That sh*t happens to me every week or so, you don't hear me crying.

Get a job.



If indeed this happens to you consistently on a weekly basis then your level of mush is next level.

Congrats. I guess...
Rio
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July 21st, 2019 at 10:51:10 PM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Hi Rio,
Welcome to the forum.

As a courtesy, here's the link to your doc.

You were wiped out by a streak of 14 lost hands. That's a bummer, but it happens.

I take it this was their RNG Blackjack?



Yes, I believe it was. I wasn't just the 14 straight loses. It was the cumulative losing combined with the way the hands lost. Just seems fishy. And even if it's my suspiciousness here talking, nobody has yet gave a sufficient answer on how to really know if these casinos (even the so called reputable ones) offer a 100% legit game.
bobbartop
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July 21st, 2019 at 11:07:31 PM permalink
Quote: Rio

If indeed this happens to you consistently on a weekly basis then your level of mush is next level.

Congrats. I guess...




I play a lot of hands. I expect it, and I sleep well.

I don't let losing bother me, and I also don't let other gamblers' whining and complaining bother me, I'm used to it all.

Here's my advice. Suck it up. Be a man. Or find another hobby. Seriously. Most people just shouldn't gamble.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
bobbartop
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July 21st, 2019 at 11:09:34 PM permalink
Quote: Rio

nobody has yet gave a sufficient answer on how to really know if these casinos (even the so called reputable ones) offer a 100% legit game.




How is someone supposed to do that?
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 12:04:13 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

I play a lot of hands. I expect it, and I sleep well.

I don't let losing bother me, and I also don't let other gamblers' whining and complaining bother me, I'm used to it all.

Here's my advice. Suck it up. Be a man. Or find another hobby. Seriously. Most people just shouldn't gamble.



So edgy.


Look guy, I asked some questions specifically since this was the first time this happened to me where it just so happened to be at an online casino where going in, I already had my doubts about the legitimacy of online casinos. You interpret it as whining so be it. Could care less. I’ve also been sports betting daily for years so I’m used to gambling but by all means keep making assumptions. Especially since there is nothing constructive you’re adding to this thread other then that razor sharp wit of yours and the fact that you’re a grumpy cooler who sleeps well. Congrats on that as well by the way.
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 12:06:37 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

How is someone supposed to do that?



I don't know. Hence the question.

I figured this being a reputable gambling forum and all it might just be the right place to ask it. Or at least start a discussion about it...
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 12:37:16 AM permalink
Quote: Rio2

Especially since there is nothing constructive you’re adding to this thread ...




I thought my advice was quite constructive. What were you looking for? Sympathy? Do you think you are the only player to ever run into a dealer on fire? You just haven't played enough. Have you ever observed another player crying the blues as you are doing? They're all over the place. Did crying the blues help them? No. It's not going to help you either. Stop it. See? Constructive.

I've been gambling a long time. Don't borrow money. Don't loan money. And don't cry when you get beat up. That's good constructive advice. It's not everything, but consider it a good foundation to build on.

Now take a look below, and to the right. See that button that says "thank you"? Click it.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
OnceDear
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July 22nd, 2019 at 12:41:35 AM permalink
Hi Rio,

It isn't really possible to prove that a game is fair, and to prove that it is cheating would require lots and lots of real money play. And if you think it's cheating, that would be an expensive exercise, so futile.

I don't play Bovada, but i do play an awful lot of onlie RNG blackjack of various types. I believe the ones i play ( Mostly by Playtech) are fair.

It has been suggested a few times that the RNG games at some online places, including possibly Bovada, MAY start to cheat as the player increases his stake, almost as though they want to pull you in with a false sense of security. E.g. Play fair at stakes up to about $10 but rip you off if you appear to be ramping, loss chasing, or progressive betting.

I've suffered 14 losses in a row while trying to progressive wager 495 bankroll up to 500. But I accept that was just normal stupid loss. To suffer that on a first visit would make me wary.

What was the branding on the game if it was an RNG game rather than a live dealer one?

Incidentally, I must impose on you the 'one User Id per member' rule. I'm going to disable your account Rio and just leave Rio2 active.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
OnceDear
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July 22nd, 2019 at 12:44:21 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

I thought my advice was quite constructive. What were you looking for? Sympathy? Do you think you are the only player to ever run into a dealer on fire? You just haven't played enough. Have you ever observed another player crying the blues as you are doing? They're all over the place. Did crying the blues help them? No. It's not going to help you either. Stop it. See? Constructive.

I've been gambling a long time. Don't borrow money. Don't loan money. And don't cry when you get beat up. That's good constructive advice. It's not everything, but consider it a good foundation to build on.

Now take a look below, and to the right. See that button that says "thank you"? Click it.

C'mon Bobbartop,
Your 'welcoming posts' to this new member came over as pretty hostile. Please rein in such frankness so as not to make new members feel unwelcome or belittled.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 12:59:04 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

C'mon Bobbartop,
Your 'welcoming posts' to this new member came over as pretty hostile. Please rein in such frankness so as not to make new members feel unwelcome or belittled.




Sorry, you're right. I'm an a-hole sometimes. Well, a lot more than sometimes.

I apologize to the new guy for my obnoxiousness. But it's still good advice. Seriously.

Anyway, I apologize.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:08:10 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

, including possibly Bovada,




I doubt that. Although there are some well documented cases of cheating software, I don't think the glove fits here.

Here's something. Last week alone, in live games, I'm going to guess I caught at least three dealer mistakes not in my favor during the week. Real human mistakes, that software wouldn't do. So if you're just playing for "fun", maybe online is safer.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:10:50 AM permalink
Quote: OnceDear

Hi Rio,

It isn't really possible to prove that a game is fair, and to prove that it is cheating would require lots and lots of real money play. And if you think it's cheating, that would be an expensive exercise, so futile.

I don't play Bovada, but i do play an awful lot of onlie RNG blackjack of various types. I believe the ones i play ( Mostly by Playtech) are fair.

It has been suggested a few times that the RNG games at some online places, including possibly Bovada, MAY start to cheat as the player increases his stake, almost as though they want to pull you in with a false sense of security. E.g. Play fair at stakes up to about $10 but rip you off if you appear to be ramping, loss chasing, or progressive betting.

I've suffered 14 losses in a row while trying to progressive wager 495 bankroll up to 500. But I accept that was just normal stupid loss. To suffer that on a first visit would make me wary.

What was the branding on the game if it was an RNG game rather than a live dealer one?

Incidentally, I must impose on you the 'one User Id per member' rule. I'm going to disable your account Rio and just leave Rio2 active.



This is exactly the type of response I was looking for so THANK YOU!

The game icon on the BJ game I played has a green background with 3 Queen cards on it. Once in real play it's a real simple set up of a blueish background. Chip denominations on bottom. Account balance on top left. Options on how to play the hand far right.

What you described regarding RNG games and progressive betting is exactly what happened to me! And although as you stated it'd be very hard to prove that the game isn't legitimate I suppose based on your feedback that it's a fair assumption that they game may very well be rigged once you start progressively wagering.

Can this be added to the Wizard of Odds page for RNG BJ games? So that other newbies to online casino gambling could at least be aware of the possibility the game may very well be rigged when progressively betting? Or at least state that there have been many complaints about this so that it's out there and in the open so folks don't learn the hard way?


By the way: I created the 2nd account because it was the only way I could keep posting as there's a 10 post limit for 1 month on newbies. Would you be able to waive this limit for me?
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:16:31 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

Sorry, you're right. I'm an a-hole sometimes. Well, a lot more than sometimes.

I apologize to the new guy for my obnoxiousness. But it's still good advice. Seriously.

Anyway, I apologize.



The advice was based on wrong assumptions that had nothing to do with my questions and more based on the fact that you're an a-hole.

That being said, apology accepted.
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:19:00 AM permalink
Quote: Rio2

This is exactly the type of response I was looking for so THANK YOU!

The game icon on the BJ game I played has a green background with 3 Queen cards on it. Once in real play it's a real simple set up of a blueish background. Chip denominations on bottom. Account balance on top left. Options on how to play the hand far right.

What you described regarding RNG games and progressive betting is exactly what happened to me! And although as you stated it'd be very hard to prove that the game isn't legitimate I suppose based on your feedback that it's a fair assumption that they game may very well be rigged once you start progressively wagering.

Can this be added to the Wizard of Odds page for RNG BJ games? So that other newbies to online casino gambling could at least be aware of the possibility the game may very well be rigged when progressively betting? Or at least state that there have been many complaints about this so that it's out there and in the open so folks don't learn the hard way?


By the way: I created the 2nd account because it was the only way I could keep posting as there's a 10 post limit for 1 month on newbies. Would you be able to waive this limit for me?




Sidenote to the Mod. Dear OnceDear, you were totally right that I came off rude and inappropriately to a new person. I'm a jerk, and I still apologize for that. Whereas, you were charming and cordial. BUT, look where you got. Cordial didn't help him. It did the opposite. lol
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:20:16 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

I doubt that. Although there are some well documented cases of cheating software, I don't think the glove fits here.

Here's something. Last week alone, in live games, I'm going to guess I caught at least three dealer mistakes not in my favor during the week. Real human mistakes, that software wouldn't do. So if you're just playing for "fun", maybe online is safer.



If it's just me complaining then sure, I'm an isolated incident.

If there are many others who experienced the same thing I did while progressively betting then it's a potential trend and a reason to be wary.
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:26:27 AM permalink
Quote: Rio2

The advice was based on wrong assumptions that had nothing to do with my questions and more based on the fact that you're an a-hole.




With all respect and as cordial as I can be, I'm pretty friggin perceptive. I think I called it right.

And welcome to the group.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:31:18 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

Sidenote to the Mod. Dear OnceDear, you were totally right that I came off rude and inappropriately to a new person. I'm a jerk, and I still apologize for that. Whereas, you were charming and cordial. BUT, look where you got. Cordial didn't help him. It did the opposite. lol




OnceDear states that RNG games at some online places including Bovada may very well cheat as a player increases his stake and that others have complained about this.

What I proposed be added to the Wizard of Odds page for RNG BJ games is to let others be aware that this may very well be an issue. I understand it may not be in the best financial interest for Wizard of Odds to do this but being that they are amongst the most reputable sites out there (if not the most) I thought I'd throw it out there so as to let others know it may be an issue.

I don't know what you're deal is pal but for a guy who claims to not be bothered by other's complaints you sure are participating a lot in this thread.
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:34:51 AM permalink
Quote: Rio2


If there are many others who experienced the same thing I did while progressively betting then it's a potential trend and a reason to be wary.




There's two ways to look at this. That could mean there's a reason to be wary, as you said, or it could mean there's just an extra bunch of complaining gamblers. I know gamblers, Rio/Rio2. If there's one thing I know, it's gamblers.

Did you bother to research Bovada much? Well? Did you?
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:35:27 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

With all respect and as cordial as I can be, I'm pretty friggin perceptive. I think I called it right.

And welcome to the group.



And I'm 100% telling you you didn't.

I know you don't know me from squat but believe me when I tell you that I'd admit when I'm bitching for bitching sakes. The rigging question is something I really wanted to get to the bottom of...
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:37:09 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

There's two ways to look at this. That could mean there's a reason to be wary, as you said, or it could mean there's just an extra bunch of complaining gamblers. I know gamblers, Rio/Rio2. If there's one thing I know, it's gamblers.

Did you bother to research Bovada much? Well? Did you?




The first point you make is a valid one and why I'm trying to get feedback here although you see it as bitching/ whining.

As to the 2nd part.. I did. I spent 2 days looking over all the reviews on Wizard of Odds. I chose Bovada because they seemed to be the most highly endorsed. Again man, with this condescending tone of yours...
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:40:10 AM permalink
Quote: Rio2

OnceDear states that RNG games at some online places including Bovada may very well cheat as a player increases his stake and that others have complained about this.

What I proposed be added to the Wizard of Odds page for RNG BJ games is to let others be aware that this may very well be an issue. I understand it may not be in the best financial interest for Wizard of Odds to do this but being that they are amongst the most reputable sites out there (if not the most) I thought I'd throw it out there so as to let others know it may be an issue.

I don't know what you're deal is pal but for a guy who claims to not be bothered by other's complaints you sure are participating a lot in this thread.




OnceDear may very well be right in saying that Bovada may very well be cheating. I may very well bet my left nut that they're not.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
Rio2
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:43:11 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

OnceDear may very well be right in saying that Bovada may very well be cheating. I may very well bet my left nut that they're not.



Fair enough.

I just hope you have enough sperm in your right nut to compensate in case you're wrong.
bobbartop
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:47:12 AM permalink
Quote: Rio2

The first point you make is a valid one and why I'm trying to get feedback here although you see it as bitching/ whining.

As to the 2nd part.. I did. I spent 2 days looking over all the reviews on Wizard of Odds. I chose Bovada because they seemed to be the most highly endorsed. Again man, with this condescending tone of yours...




Wizard of Odds is great, very solid. But they're not the only place to find reliable reviews. So in other words, you only looked at one place for "research". Like I said, I'm perceptive. Obnoxious, but perceptive.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
AxelWolf
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:52:17 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

OnceDear may very well be right in saying that Bovada may very well be cheating. I may very well bet my left nut that they're not.

I have no need for your left nut. But trust me, you don't want to bet it on this.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
bobbartop
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:57:52 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I have no need for your left nut. But trust me, you don't want to bet it on this.




Ok. And to the new guy, my advice now is that Axel's advice trumps my advice. I'm going to bed.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
OnceDear
OnceDear
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July 22nd, 2019 at 3:57:15 AM permalink
Quote: bobbartop

Ok. And to the new guy, my advice now is that Axel's advice trumps my advice. I'm going to bed.

I'll second this. I believe that Axel has some experience of Bovada and I have lots of experience of other online BJ.

There's only very minimal suspicions of rng BJ behaving as I described. I have heard 1 guy suggest it of Bovada. Far far too little evidence to warn of them or any other place. There was one place discussed on here which had very clearly dubious games. That was a dodgy off shore unregulated gaff. Bovada is more mainstream and more trusted.

As with any online behaviour, especially gambling, it's caveat emptor. This site should not need to warn of that.

I appreciate Bobartop's apology and Rio could have been more graceful in accepting it.

Guys, call it even and please keep it courteous without any sniping from anyone.
Thanks.

I don't think the 10 post limit is enforced. But either way, please respect the spirit of it. Don't waste your quota squabbling.
Psalm 25:16 Turn to me and be gracious to me, for I am lonely and afflicted. Proverbs 18:2 A fool finds no satisfaction in trying to understand, for he would rather express his own opinion.
kubikulann
kubikulann
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July 22nd, 2019 at 4:51:44 AM permalink
How could we check if an online gambling operator cheats?

1. Check under which type of control they are licensed. I would trust a US or EU based site more than a Caribbean or Russian one. And even then... I wouldn’t trust a Maltese or Cypriot site!
2. Cheating must be rewarding for the site for the risk to be acceptable. To be rewarding it must bias the house edge strongly, and/or rig a large number of games. So, if there is not strong statistical evidence, it is reasonable to admit they don’t cheat.
3. On l’y by inspecting the software can you prove without doubt that a bias is programmed. Statistical proof does not exist, just statistical significance — that is, remnants of doubt.
4. Evidence on one player session is ridiculously insignificant in statistical terms. Considering the number of sessions in the world, it is perfectly expected that somewhere, sometime, someone runs into a ‘very bad luck’ trip. Compare with the lotto. For me as a player, it is extremely improbable that I win. For the lottery operator, it is almost certain that ‘somebody’ wins.
Similarly, your session may be excessively improbable from the individual point of view, it is also very normal that it happens to someone among the millions of sessions.
I won the lotto. You ‘won’ the bad luck trip.
5. As a consequence, in order to spot cheating, one should get access to session results from a sufficiently large sample of sessions, from many different players. I doubt this is accessible, unless you get a court order.
Reperiet qui quaesiverit
bobbartop
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July 22nd, 2019 at 6:40:28 AM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

How could we check if an online gambling operator cheats?

1. Check under which type of control they are licensed. I would trust a US or EU based site more than a Caribbean or Russian one. And even then... I wouldn’t trust a Maltese or Cypriot site!




Russia is out of the question. US is not really a significant player yet. I would trust some Caribbean more than EU. Depends. A lot are out of Costa Rica, pretty wide open, some good, some crooks. Malta, Cyprus, depends. Software provider means something. Microgaming backs up clients that go bad. (Goodfellows Casino comes to mind). Aside from Wizard of Odds, I would let Casinomeister be my guide. Long history, and Bryan Bailey (Casinomeister) has a lot of integrity. In fact, if a casino does not have the ok from Casinomeister, I'd avoid it like the plague.
'Emergencies' have always been the pretext on which the safeguards of individual liberty have been eroded.
heatmap
heatmap
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July 22nd, 2019 at 10:55:22 AM permalink
im playing the "practice play" and i have to say the "feel" of how the cards are coming out "feel" pretty tight to me but i dont know ish

although now i just hit like almost 3 blackjacks in a row
Rio2
Rio2
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July 22nd, 2019 at 12:51:16 PM permalink
Quote: kubikulann

How could we check if an online gambling operator cheats?

1. Check under which type of control they are licensed. I would trust a US or EU based site more than a Caribbean or Russian one. And even then... I wouldn’t trust a Maltese or Cypriot site!
2. Cheating must be rewarding for the site for the risk to be acceptable. To be rewarding it must bias the house edge strongly, and/or rig a large number of games. So, if there is not strong statistical evidence, it is reasonable to admit they don’t cheat.
3. On l’y by inspecting the software can you prove without doubt that a bias is programmed. Statistical proof does not exist, just statistical significance — that is, remnants of doubt.
4. Evidence on one player session is ridiculously insignificant in statistical terms. Considering the number of sessions in the world, it is perfectly expected that somewhere, sometime, someone runs into a ‘very bad luck’ trip. Compare with the lotto. For me as a player, it is extremely improbable that I win. For the lottery operator, it is almost certain that ‘somebody’ wins.
Similarly, your session may be excessively improbable from the individual point of view, it is also very normal that it happens to someone among the millions of sessions.
I won the lotto. You ‘won’ the bad luck trip.
5. As a consequence, in order to spot cheating, one should get access to session results from a sufficiently large sample of sessions, from many different players. I doubt this is accessible, unless you get a court order.



Thank you for your detailed post kubikulann.

Regarding your first point options are very limited for US players and many respected EU online casinos are not available for us to play leaving us with A) US casino which unless you're in that state you can't play there and B) the whole loosely regulated/ unregulated Carribean online casino market. Not a lot of options for us.

Regarding point #4 I understand this and that may very well be true. Which is why the whole purpose of this thread was to try and get feedback. If there are other players out there who had similar experiences then my "very bad luck trip" that happened within 24 hours of signing up isn't just an isolated incident but a potential concerning trend that others should be wary about.

EDIT: It seems I've reached the maximum post limit again and can't make another post for 30 days! arghgh. Can a mod please waive this requirement for me. I want to respect the rules for this forum and not create a Rio3. Thank you in advance.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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July 22nd, 2019 at 1:10:34 PM permalink
Quote: Rio2

Thank you for your detailed post kubikulann.

Regarding your first point options are very limited for US players and many respected EU online casinos are not available for us to play leaving us with A) US casino which unless you're in that state you can't play there and B) the whole loosely regulated/ unregulated Carribean online casino market. Not a lot of options for us.

Regarding point #4 I understand this and that may very well be true. Which is why the whole purpose of this thread was to try and get feedback. If there are other players out there who had similar experiences then my "very bad luck trip" that happened within 24 hours of signing up isn't just an isolated incident but a potential concerning trend that others should be wary about.

EDIT: It seems I've reached the maximum post limit again and can't make another post for 30 days! arghgh. Can a mod please waive this requirement for me. I want to respect the rules for this forum and not create a Rio3. Thank you in advance.



There is a good reason for the post limit. Cool off for a bit! I think you can post again tomorrow.
MichaelBluejay
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July 22nd, 2019 at 2:26:42 PM permalink
Math isn't my strong suit, but with the chances of losing an individual round being 49.09%, I think the chances of losing 14 rounds in a row would be 1 ÷ (0.49.09^14) = 1 in 21,188.

But, that's probably the wrong question. We're deliberately counting from the start of the bad streak. What if we started in the -15th round? Then the question would be, what are the odds of winning one round and losing 14? Or if we started at the beginning of your session, what are the odds of having a session that bad? Probably not as bad as 1 in 21,188. My math isn't good enough to calculate it. I could simulate it, but I'm busy with some other projects at the moment.

By the way, I'm pretty sure I've lost 14 rounds in a row in live games.
Last edited by: MichaelBluejay on Jul 23, 2019
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FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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July 23rd, 2019 at 5:23:23 AM permalink
Quote: MichaelBluejay

By the way, I'm pretty sure I've lost 14 rounds in a row in live games.

Ofcourse. And when it happened you didn.t accuse the dealer or expect every player at the table to immediately echo your accusations.
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