Shout out to Stratosphere
Quote: MrBoIf it is a 'policy' then they can choose to do it or not do it at will. There is no violation of anything, nor do you have a say.
I have read a lot of this thread, but I didn't go all the way back to the beginning, so let me ask you a question. Why did you move west to Las Vegas? Was it to pursue card counting and advantage play opportunities or was it make noise, filing complains and law suits that you can't and won't win and if you somehow did win, would receive no damages? Just like Kenny Uston received no damages.
You need to figure out what your objective really is. If it is pursuing card counting and advantage play, then pursue it. You are in their house. On someone else's home court. They make the rules. The object of advantage play, of which card counting is a part of is to go to their house, play by their rules and win. You don't get to change the rules.
Im not changing any rules. Is it wrong for a patron to simply want the casino to abide by regulations and statutes? I might be in their house, but the house still has laws to follow and adhere to and cant just railroad people.
Back in PA when they shuffled up on me, it was different because they did it without reason and didnt give me an excuse as to why theyre doing it, they just did it and I just decided to not pursue. What they did in PA is just as bad and couldve also sought litigation, but just didnt feel like it.
But here in Vegas the pit boss lied straight to my face and i can use that as proof that theyre acting inconsistently with how they treat certain patrons because they never shuffle up on anyone when they dont burn a card. It will be hard to prove that they did in fact say thay since there is no audio, but the fact that the pit boss goes and whispers in the dealers ear just before they shuffled on me should be enough proof. That right there blows their bluff that they didnt do it to me because i was counting. Once it is proven in discovery that they did it to me because i was counting, that will violate the NRS cheating statute.
Maybe the damage is already being done as we speak and Gaming found Stratosphere to be in violation of regulations and will get heavily fined, but im not holding my breath. That alone will stop or at least make pit bosses think twice now to shuffle up on someone. Gaming said I wont know of the decision on this because its between the casino and gaming and is confidential and that if i want to pursue it id have to get a lawyer and fight it.
You also seem to be under the impression that gaming NGC is on your side and there to help you. They are not. Most interactions with NGC by an advantage player, result in a trespass from the property involved, regardless of the outcome of the complaint. Re-read the post by Axelwolf.
And finally, "pit boss lying straight to your face" violates nothing except god's law. Get used to it.
Your whole approach seems to be backwards. Most of these types of things have been tried and tested in Nevada, without a favorable outcome. If you are insistent on challenging rules and regulations via gaming commissions and the courts, some of these newer jurisdictions would be the place to do so. Pennsylvania is a good example. Pennsylvania may be doing things that may not be authorized by state regulations.
But again, as Uston proved, winning such a case wins nothing. There are no damages. All that happens is rules are changed and regulations re-written to support worse conditions. Are you familiar with the term "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?
Quote: MrBoYou continue to interchange laws or legal statutes with casino policy. In this instance, as you describe it, no laws or legal statues were broken, only casino policy deviated, which is their right to do at will.
You also seem to be under the impression that gaming NGC is on your side and there to help you. They are not. Most interactions with NGC by an advantage player, result in a trespass from the property involved, regardless of the outcome of the complaint. Re-read the post by Axelwolf.
And finally, "pit boss lying straight to your face" violates nothing except god's law. Get used to it.
Your whole approach seems to be backwards. Most of these types of things have been tried and tested in Nevada, without a favorable outcome. If you are insistent on challenging rules and regulations via gaming commissions and the courts, some of these newer jurisdictions would be the place to do so. Pennsylvania is a good example. Pennsylvania may be doing things that may not be authorized by state regulations.
But again, as Uston proved, winning such a case wins nothing. There are no damages. All that happens is rules are changed and regulations re-written to support worse conditions. Are you familiar with the term "cutting off your nose to spite your face"?
Im not interchanging anything. The policy thing is just secondary and a supporting argument for what they did. Them shuffling up on me already violates the Nevada cheating statute as i previously mentioned. It violates both subsection (a) and (b). Also the fact that they dont do this to every single patron is further proof they are picking and choosing of who they do it too is more proof that they did it to manipulate the odds of the game and alter the game of chance and the result of the game. Also the fact of the pit boss 'whispering' in the dealers mid round before they shuffle up on me is further proof of the suspicious shenanigans going on.
Lastly i know gaming is corrupt and not once was i ever under the impression that theyre on my side as i have clearly said time and time again, but it was a last resort phone call. This s why i was also careful to not tell them anything about which table i was on etc or when asked if i was counting or an AP because they will just tell the casino what i was doing so i of course didnt tell them. Gaming now has my name and phone number, but i never gave strato my ID that day so its all good.
Looking back though, i probably shouldve just told gaming everything though, since this thread has now outed me anyway.
Quote: MaxPenZenKing there's a casino right up the street that can use your expertise in marketing. Head up to the SLS and get them back on track.
Changing their logo colors will be a start. Any place not using red or yellow in their logo branding is already behind the 8 ball.
Quote: ZenKinGLong story short, im playing heads up going from $10 and then to 2x100 at the time, didnt get to max bet yet. Im winning every single round and made around 800 with about 2 decks in as the count shot up early. New dealer comes to the game and the dealer doesnt burn a card. Keep that in mind because thats the key. The dealer deals the round and the pit boss then whispers in her ear something i couldnt hear, but i knew what was going on. Turns out because the dealer didnt 'burn a card', this now meant they had to shuffle up and start a new shoe. This was obviously done on purpose as she saw me spread to 2 hands of 100 and winning every round when i started off at 1x10.
I called gaming and they said they dont know what the casinos particular policy is and what they could do. I of course destroyed the gaming agent and told them it was completely illegal for the casino to manipulate the odds of a particular game to their advantage at will when its unfavorable to them.
EVEN if their policy is to shuffle up the current shoe if the new dealer doesnt burn a card(complete obvious bullshit), i have seen numerous times at stratosphere where the new dealer doesnt burn a card and the pit boss NEVER says to shuffle up on the players at the table so they are contradicting and being inconsistent with their very own policy. This is is a massive violation of regulations and i hope Gaming fines the shit out of them.
There was an agent sent out there last night to investigate what happened and to watch the tape, but im not holding my breath because Gaming is as useless and corrupt as they come in this city. I told Gaming that all they have to do is watch the last week of blackjack being dealt there and they can see for themselves they never shuffle up on anyone if a card is not burned, but tonight they did it to me. Gaming asked if i was an AP or card counter, but i didnt want to tell them anything about myself. Whether it couldve helped idk, but it is what it is. All i know is this is not only illrgal and immoral about what they did, but even if it is their own policy to shuffle up the current shoe if a card is not burned, they NEVER do that, only TONIGHT did they do it to me. This is a complete contradiction of their own policy and are manipulating the odds and discriminating vs me.
Lastly I dont care one bit about outing myself with this post. This is a shout out to the biggest immoral piece of garbage pit boss that works at Stratosphere. I hope you realize you will be fired soon after you did what you did to me last night. You will never get rid of me either. I dare you guyd to arrest me or trespass me now after Gaming has investigated your corrupt casino. That should go well in court you worthless scumbags. Its clear as day what you did to me and you will pay.
I just want to take a moment to thank you. Your posts on what you think is legal, how casinos are against you and how you would double casino profits if you were in charge make me laugh and keep me entertained.
We dealt with something similar here a few years back with a dice controller that was aggressive toward casino Staff.. I see the same downward spiral here. I expect a lot more entertainment is coming in the next 6 to 12 months before a not so entertaining end.
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I just want to take a moment to thank you. Your posts on what you think is legal, how casinos are against you and how you would double casino profits if you were in charge make me laugh and keep me entertained.
We dealt with something similar here a few years back with a dice controller that was aggressive toward casino Staff.. I see the same downward spiral here. I expect a lot more entertainment is coming in the next 6 to 12 months before a not so entertaining end.
ZCore13
Is that a threat? Mods anyone?
Yea, please go ahead prove when i have ever been 'aggressive' to casino staff. Ill wait. The fact that you fail to comment on anything about what the casinos do wrong to APs such as what happened me the other night, tells me all I need to know about you and is confirmation once more of the integrity and honesty of the people that work for these corrupt casinos.
Please go ahead and try to defend the position that casinos have the right to shuffle up on you and how theyre not violating the Nevada cheating statute. Then go ahead and tell me if it is somehow legal, how ethical that is and how you guys can look at yourselves in the mirror each night. Must suck to have to lie straight to your kids face each day to be an honorable human being and to be a good person when you guys are nothing but the contrary.
If anyfthing I’d say you should be the one suspended as you just called Zcore and all casino workers scum of the earth. I root for to succeed but you seem like you are trying to offend everyone and you won’t be happy until you have.
If I was a mod you’d be taking a time out for a few days.
Quote: ZenKinGIs that a threat? Mods anyone?
Yea, please go ahead prove when i have ever been 'aggressive' to casino staff. Ill wait. The fact that you fail to comment on anything about what the casinos do wrong to APs such as what happened me the other night, tells me all I need to know about you and is confirmation once more of the integrity and honesty of the people that work for these corrupt casinos.
Please go ahead and try to defend the position that casinos have the right to shuffle up on you and how theyre not violating the Nevada cheating statute. Then go ahead and tell me if it is somehow legal, how ethical that is and how you guys can look at yourselves in the mirror each night. Must suck to have to lie straight to your kids face each day to be an honorable human being and to be a good person when you guys are nothing but the contrary.
There are absolutely no threats in my post. And the fact that you edited your post afterward, doesn't change the fact that you called me and all other casino employees the scum of the earth. I would suggest you talk to a professional about your anger.
ZCore13
Let us shuffle at 3:2 or else we will only give you 6:5?
They is going to shuffle no matter what motivates them to do it. They've got the lawyers and the Speechwriters and whether you like it or not, the Gaming commission knows where its bread is buttered.
So live in the real world and accept the fact that the shuffle will take place whenever the house pleases.
Quote: ZenKinGJust for the record, when you say i edited it out, i edited it out before any of you mentioned it. I dont want an admin to come late to the party and think i only edited it after you guys said it.
Actually I believe you edited after I had already commented because I saw the original more rude version. It was changed by the time I came back to it.
Any way you slice it ZK you come off as an immature rude child who thinks that everything should be fair. (I hope this doesn’t count as an insult, I’m just commenting as to his insults) Like I’ve said I’m in your corner but it’s tough to be in your corner when you keep smacking me and others with a hot metal pole saying “get out of my corner”.
I would love to meet you in person cause I’m actually quite confident we would get along quite well. Everyone says you’re a nice guy in person, why can’t that same nice guy participate on these forums?
Quote: ZenKinGIs that a threat? Mods anyone?
I don't read it that way.
Quote: PokerGrinderActually I believe you edited after I had already commented because I saw the original more rude version. It was changed by the time I came back to it.
Any way you slice it ZK you come off as an immature rude child who thinks that everything should be fair. (I hope this doesn’t count as an insult, I’m just commenting as to his insults) Like I’ve said I’m in your corner but it’s tough to be in your corner when you keep smacking me and others with a hot metal pole saying “get out of my corner”.
I would love to meet you in person cause I’m actually quite confident we would get along quite well. Everyone says you’re a nice guy in person, why can’t that same nice guy participate on these forums?
I don't know why you feel like i 'smacked' you and idk why you feel insulted since i was only calling out the people that work for casinos in 'general' saying they were scum.
Quote: ZenKinGI don't know why you feel like i 'smacked' you and idk why you feel insulted since i was only calling out the people that work for casinos in 'general' saying they were scum.
The smacking with the hot pole was more that constant need to tell us all how wrong we are and how you’re the smartest person whenever someone offers help or knowledge.
As far as the casino workers. I dealt in a casino when I was 19, some of my best friends still deal cards in casinos and in my life I’ve met thousands of amazing people that work in casinos. So yes I take offence when you call all casino workers scum, I must be the crazy one🙄
Quote: SM777What would you expect NGCB to do for you should you win this?
The fact that there is no reasonable answer to this question is what makes this case is unwinnable. They can't return the shoe to an identical condition, they would never (ever!) issue payment based on assumed or potential outcomes based on the count, and they also won't and can't instruct a casino about how to write or follow the casino's internal procedures. The very best case is that the NGCB talks to the Strat and tells them that this has the potential to look bad and that they might want to consider a change in policy or a refresher on procedure so that they can avoid similarly frivolous hassles in the future.
Quote: SM777What would you expect NGCB to do for you should you win this?
Nothing. At the time of calling them, my objective was simply to get stratosphere in some type of trouble and possibly some type of recourse for me, but i was quickly informed by nevada gaming that there would be nothing in it for me and i wouldnt even know about the result that comes from this once they investigate because according to them this is a 'confidential' matter and a 'regulation investigation' and that it's between nevada gaming and stratosphere. They told me they have my number and name and that this case was recorded with the time i called etc.
I bet nothing came from this once they sent the agent down to investigate and nothing will probably come from it and strato wont be fined. Is what it is. I just hope at the least like rdw mentioned, this gets strato thinking twice about shuffling up on someone again. If just the thought of them second guessing from now on, ill be happy.
Hate to say it, but i think i was spinning my wheels once again about even trying to fight this on a personal level as well and all things considered, probably not 'worth it' like everyone always says. I honestly cant stand the amount of theft and immoral things they get away with. Things like that angers me to no end. Cant stand injustice. Im still not completely ruling out eventually fighting something like this. Had i had maybe 200k on me instead of 50 and was more well off and settled down, i would target them in a legal battle.
Casinos are playing with fire though by shuffling up on people. Its a major grey area and one day they will run into someone with big pockets that doesnt care about outing himself and getting banned publicly after the case gets out, etc.
While it doesn't always come down to money, my father taught me something many years ago I never forgot...." Son, money may not buy happiness, but there is a hell of a lot of it out there for rent". Wise words indeed.
1) Each hand is its own game
2) The game was never played so you didn't experience any real loss.
3) Shuffling is a natural part of the game.
4) Your bet was never accepted
5) You were offered the opportunity to change your bet before the next hand or you could have sat out completely.
Quote: DRich1) Each hand is its own game
Yet they flat bet you for an entire shoe....
Yeah, devils advocate...Quote: DRichI am going to play devils advocate and say that shuffling up is not cheating.
1) Each hand is its own game
2) The game was never played so you didn't experience any real loss.
3) Shuffling is a natural part of the game.
4) Your bet was never accepted
5) You were offered the opportunity to change your bet before the next hand or you could have sat out completely.
1) Blackjack has been known for years to NOT be independent trials. This is why card counting exists.
2) A loss in expectation is a real loss. One could easily show if the casino shuffled the cards at TC +2 or higher, the house edge would increase dramatically. This is similar to the house removing aces and faces from the deck (as you never get to play them when the deck is rich in them).
3) The complaint wasn't on shuffling itself, but the timing of the shuffling which was used to alter the elements of chance and fairness in the game.
4) The bet was used to determine the shuffle... the illegal shuffle that altered the elements of chance.
Quote: BlueHorseshoeHello everyone. Not new to the forum, but I am new to contributing, but I would like to change that. Just listening to some of the comments of this thread and others and I find it strange that there is so much anger toward the casinos by some people. Without them it seems gambling would be a lot more limited. I know they have an edge, but I would try to have one as well if I was gambling with someone. Why be angry at them for this? I guess I am just more of a recreational gambler and I really have a great time going to casinos. It is my hobby, my pleasure, and my release. If I felt so much anger and hostility that I was being cheated in some way, I think I would find something else that would fill that need. Don't get me wrong, I love to win, and I have used so many of the Wizards strategies to help give me a better edge at the games. Just seems like some people would like to put casinos out of business and I don't understand why. Enjoy all of your posts so much. Keep up the good work everyone.
Good comment. I will just say that if you are playing at an advantage frequently at many casinos, at some point you will be grossly mistreated by a couple of them who just don’t do business in an ethical manner. That will tend to color your perception of the many that are respectful and go about protecting their business in a respectable manner.
I think very poorly of the industry in general and think it’s morally bankrupt. I will make an effort to be conscious to not have that perception of individual employees (yah yah I know casinos are made up of peopl) until they prove they deserve it, plenty of good peoples, makes it easier on everyone when both sides treat the other as they would like to be treated if the situations were reversed.
Quote: mcallister3200Good comment. I will just say that if you are playing at an advantage frequently at many casinos, at some point you will be grossly mistreated by a couple of them who just don’t do business in an ethical manner. That will tend to color your perception of the many that are respectful and go about protecting their business in a respectable manner.
I think very poorly of the industry in general and think it’s morally bankrupt. I will make an effort to be conscious to not have that perception of individual employees (yah yah I know casinos are made up of peopl) until they prove they deserve it, plenty of good peoples, makes it easier on everyone when both sides treat the other as they would like to be treated if the situations were reversed.
I understand ZK's anger. But eventually, he will end up in a book (if he hasn't already) and his play eventually won't be welcome anywhere in LV. Casinos can and will bar him from playing blackjack, despite what he thinks his rights are. Or they will early-shuffle, or flat-bet him, or take whatever countermeasures they can, all of which gaming has allowed to counter the counters and gaming and the legal gurus at all casinos have decided is fair play.
Successful counters fly under the radar through many strategies already mentioned on this site. The last thing that counters want is for machines to go to CSM or for all games to go to 6:5.
Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to reading you.
I played SHV/BC in June for the first time. I was very pleasantly surprised at the variety and quality of some of the places. I'll be particularly interested in what specifics there you want to talk about.
We have one other member who goes through there often, but it's always useful to hear about people's experiences and observations.
And not to sound naive but it should be that way, because you can't be certain it wasn't a coincidence, even though it looks like very suspicious timing. You play enough blackjack and any unlikely chain of event is possible, even them forgetting the burn card and shuffling at the worse time for you! APs more than anyone should understand stats and know better than to draw conclusions from a sample of ONE occurrence, so how can you ask NGC to do that?
They will fight back using whatever tricks or loopholes they can find, which is what we also do.
There is nothing wrong with that, at the end of the day they are (most of them at least) good people doing their jobs! It's the cat and mouse game that others mentioned. I like to think of it as a sport.
No offense but you often sound like if you were a plane designer, you would be constantly complaining about the existence of gravity instead of dealing with it. Just my 2 cents
Quote: beachbumbabsBlueHorseshoe,
Welcome to the forum. Looking forward to reading you.
I played SHV/BC in June for the first time. I was very pleasantly surprised at the variety and quality of some of the places. I'll be particularly interested in what specifics there you want to talk about.
We have one other member who goes through there often, but it's always useful to hear about people's experiences and observations.
Thank you. It is the closest place for me to go for 'Vegas" style gambling. I like the Eldorado as well. I will be going back in mid April so I can give you an update then. Really love this site. Has been very helpful to me.
Quote: tyler498
No offense but you often sound like if you were a plane designer, you would be constantly complaining about the existence of gravity instead of dealing with it. Just my 2 cents
That observation wins the comment of the day award for the entire internet in my book.
Quote: MaxPenThat observation wins the comment of the day award for the entire internet in my book.
I was just about to say the same thing but you beat me to it.
In Nevada, the cut card is a signal to the casino that we are reaching the end of the shoe/deck. We can shuffle before, after, during, or any time we want to. We can shuffle after every hand if we want to.
Normally, we shuffle when the cut card comes out.
We can also choose to back anyone off from playing blackjack if we feel that person has an advantage. Normally we do not, but we can.
I wonder where you are getting your "laws" from?
In Atlantic City, they cannot back someone off for being an advantage player, so they have choices of early shuffles and flat betting.
Bring on your lawyers. I'll make the popcorn.
Quote: FCBLComishWow, where do I begin?
In Nevada, the cut card is a signal to the casino that we are reaching the end of the shoe/deck. We can shuffle before, after, during, or any time we want to. We can shuffle after every hand if we want to.
Normally, we shuffle when the cut card comes out.
We can also choose to back anyone off from playing blackjack if we feel that person has an advantage. Normally we do not, but we can.
I wonder where you are getting your "laws" from?
In Atlantic City, they cannot back someone off for being an advantage player, so they have choices of early shuffles and flat betting.
Bring on your lawyers. I'll make the popcorn.
Amd ill be coming back each and every time cause nevada has no authority to trespass me for counting. Have fun backing me off 500 times in 500 days. Good luck proving i was being disorderly or disruptive. All you can do is tell me to leave each and every time. Ill make sure to bring my popcorn as well.
Quote: ZenKinGAmd ill be coming back each and every time cause nevada has no authority to trespass me for counting. Have fun backing me off 500 times in 500 days. Good luck proving i was being disorderly or disruptive. All you can do is tell me to leave each and every time. Ill make sure to bring my popcorn as well.
Of course they do. They can tell you you are not welcome to play their blackjack games. And then when you go back and they catch you doing it they will trespass you. And then if you try and come back again you will go to jail. Give it a try.
ZCore13
Quote: ZenKinGAmd ill be coming back each and every time cause nevada has no authority to trespass me for counting. Have fun backing me off 500 times in 500 days. Good luck proving i was being disorderly or disruptive. All you can do is tell me to leave each and every time. Ill make sure to bring my popcorn as well.
You don't have to do anything wrong to be trespassed or kicked out of casino. They can eject you for any reason they want. If they tell you to leave and you come back, that's trespassing and you can be fined or arrested.
Quote: Zcore13Of course they do. They can tell you you are not welcome to play their blackjack games. And then when you go back and they catch you doing it they will trespass you. And then if you try and come back again you will go to jail. Give it a try.
ZCore13
I have already and simply got 'trespassed again' LOL.
I guess the Wilkinsin case might have somethinf to do with it. Nice try. Maybe try reading that case. These casinos also dont even formally trespass you, i wonder why. No trespass act was read. No police were present. Just all bluffs because they know they cant formally trespass someome in this city for counting alone.
Quote: TigerWuYou don't have to do anything wrong to be trespassed or kicked out of casino. They can eject you for any reason they want. If they tell you to leave and you come back, that's trespassing and you can be fined or arrested.
Getting ejected is far different than being formally trespassed. Ejected = backed off which casinos have the right to do and you must comply. If they ask me to leave and i dont comply, that becomes ground for a trespass. If you simply comply and leave, you can come back again another day. Thanks.
Quote: ZenKinGJust all bluffs because they know they cant formally trespass someome in this city for counting alone.
No, but they can trespass you and have you arrested for coming back into the casino if they've banned you.
Quote: TigerWuNo, but they can trespass you and have you arrested for coming back into the casino if they've banned you.
Nope because to ban you would violate the precedent set in the Wilkinson case. Thats why casinos never formally bar anyone amymore. I wonder why....
Quote: TigerWuNo, but they can trespass you and have you arrested for coming back into the casino if they've banned you.
ZK is saying....They can't ban you for counting cards, but they can ask you to leave. Sort of like if you get too drunk at a bar, they ask you to leave, but you're welcome back another day.
In order for him to get trespassed, he'd have to be disorderly or something. Refusing to leave after being told to leave would be disorderly and would be cause for trespass.
The validity to this, I'm not sure. Just clarifying that's what he's saying.
Quote: billryanYou are welcome to return until they say otherwise. Someone who gets drunk once will most likely be allowed back in. Get drunk every night and tie up casino resources to eject you and see how quickly you wear out your welcome. If someone chooses to be a dick and return where they have been told they aren't welcome, that's on them.
Be prepared to be accused of insulting a member by saying someone is a dick if they return.
You can’t teach common sense and you can’t make someone mature when they are not.
Quote: BozBe prepared to be accused of insulting a member by saying someone is a dick if they return.
You can’t teach common sense and you can’t make someone mature when they are not.
I disagree. He's not in any way singling out ZK with that comment. He's talking about how people get casinos to take action against them, in general. No insult there.
Quote: BlueHorseshoeWonder how far Zen would get if the places were still mobbed up? Just sayin.
Ace Rothstein: I'm just curious. I saw you shuffling your checks with your right hand. Can you do that with both hands?
Signaller: No.
Ace Rothstein: Can't do it with both hands?
Signaller: No, sir.
Ace Rothstein: Can you do it with your left hand?
Signaller: Well, I... I never tried.
Ace Rothstein: So you're a righty?
Signaller: Yeah.
[one of the guards repeatedly bangs the signaller's right hand with a hammer]
Ace Rothstein: Now you're gonna have to learn with your left hand
Quote: beachbumbabsI disagree. He's not in any way singling out ZK with that comment. He's talking about how people get casinos to take action against them, in general. No insult there.
I think you misunderstood my comment, you mentioned a certain member, not me.😀
