Shuffle master truth solved
October 16th, 2017 at 11:04:12 PM
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From 2006 to 2012 I made a 6 figures every year like clockwork and I noticed it was getting harder and harder so I took 10k and a month of my time and went everyday to the tables I started noticing a pattern Monday through Wednesday it was possible to win using classic count strategies but is was definitely harder Thursday through Sunday is was a slaughterhouse every table no was winning anywhere the shuffle master was the only difference they where the md2 advanced and Md3 versions .So road block after road block I managed to buy a new Md3 Shuffle Master for the price of $10,300.00 dollars What I found
1 Are they rigged?
Absolutely ,but not illegal as long as the still meet there payout
2 Is there beast mode ?
Yes that is 91% house favor this is done though moving higher value cards to the top (that’s why you need to cut at least 1 deck back) notice the deeper you cut the tag card is placed further out
3 scan every card?
Yes it knows if there is a extra card and exactly what card is extra
4 Do dealers know
Not details but they get there tips hurt by this so they know
5 can it be beaten?
Yes ,but throw basic strategy out the window NO splits ever not even aces No doubles you will lose if you do this that’s the beginning I will answer other question as they come in
Hopefully this puts the shuffle master myths to rest I’ve seen all the Forums people noticed the difference then the fool jumps in a say he works at shuffle master say can’t be rigged!!!
Bottom line is this I have the machine and have a year straight of practice They are absolutely rigged but not illegal if they stay in the payout guidelines .when the casino buys or leases a 10000 dollar machine you better believe it has to do more than just mix up the cards it provides the House a drastic advantage. Happy to answer any questions. And I’m back to making my 6 figures!!
1 Are they rigged?
Absolutely ,but not illegal as long as the still meet there payout
2 Is there beast mode ?
Yes that is 91% house favor this is done though moving higher value cards to the top (that’s why you need to cut at least 1 deck back) notice the deeper you cut the tag card is placed further out
3 scan every card?
Yes it knows if there is a extra card and exactly what card is extra
4 Do dealers know
Not details but they get there tips hurt by this so they know
5 can it be beaten?
Yes ,but throw basic strategy out the window NO splits ever not even aces No doubles you will lose if you do this that’s the beginning I will answer other question as they come in
Hopefully this puts the shuffle master myths to rest I’ve seen all the Forums people noticed the difference then the fool jumps in a say he works at shuffle master say can’t be rigged!!!
Bottom line is this I have the machine and have a year straight of practice They are absolutely rigged but not illegal if they stay in the payout guidelines .when the casino buys or leases a 10000 dollar machine you better believe it has to do more than just mix up the cards it provides the House a drastic advantage. Happy to answer any questions. And I’m back to making my 6 figures!!
October 17th, 2017 at 2:21:02 AM
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Would you be able to provide video evidence of the machine in action showing the high value cards being sorted to the top consistently? Quite an accusation and would be interesting to see.
RD
RD
What is life if not a gamble?
October 17th, 2017 at 5:38:27 AM
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"Yes that is 91% house favor this is done though moving higher value cards to the top"
The location of the top is random because a player cuts, but wouldn't a surplus of high value cards at the "top" be good for the player? And why would an excess of high cards make us less inclined to double?
The location of the top is random because a player cuts, but wouldn't a surplus of high value cards at the "top" be good for the player? And why would an excess of high cards make us less inclined to double?
October 17th, 2017 at 6:39:10 AM
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Quote: BlackjackGuy123but wouldn't a surplus of high value cards at the "top" be good for the player? And why would an excess of high cards make us less inclined to double?
That's what I was thinking too unless he is saying that the aces are specifically directed away from the big cards.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
October 17th, 2017 at 6:44:48 AM
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That is quite an accusation. Speaking for myself, I would need a lot more evidence to take this seriously.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 17th, 2017 at 6:46:44 AM
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This thread is #FakeNews.
A shuffler from them costs over $19,000. Nice try though.
A shuffler from them costs over $19,000. Nice try though.
October 17th, 2017 at 6:47:45 AM
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Quote: RisingDoughWould you be able to provide video evidence of the machine in action showing the high value cards being sorted to the top consistently? Quite an accusation and would be interesting to see.
RD
There's literally a 0% chance he can provide this. I doubt he can he provide himself with a picture of himself next to an MD3 that's not located in a casino.
October 17th, 2017 at 6:48:35 AM
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Post a photo of your shuffler with your forum name/date written on an index card.
October 17th, 2017 at 6:53:56 AM
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Quote: gamerfreakPost a photo of your shuffler with your forum name/date written on an index card.
I second the request.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
October 17th, 2017 at 6:56:46 AM
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Where have I read about this "beast mode" before.....
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 17th, 2017 at 7:13:11 AM
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Fascinating reading. It would be even more fascinating with better/video evidence.
Note, I'm not saying that I don't believe or that it's impossible or anything. Just questionable. Sure, it's totally possible, but that doesn't mean it's actually happening.
Anyway, if its true that top deck gets stacked with high cards, that really does change things. Here's how:
If players cut at about 1-1/2 decks, and dealers do the typical 6 deck penetration, then those rich cards will never get used. Of course, a player could also cut half-way, or even closer to the back of the shoe.
But there is the old saying "Cut thin to win." And many players do cut thin. Therefore, more often than not, that rich top deck is buried behind the shuffle card. I.E. the shoe is stacked in the casino's favor.
HOWEVER: If this was true, why would casinos prefer CSMs?
Note, I'm not saying that I don't believe or that it's impossible or anything. Just questionable. Sure, it's totally possible, but that doesn't mean it's actually happening.
Anyway, if its true that top deck gets stacked with high cards, that really does change things. Here's how:
If players cut at about 1-1/2 decks, and dealers do the typical 6 deck penetration, then those rich cards will never get used. Of course, a player could also cut half-way, or even closer to the back of the shoe.
But there is the old saying "Cut thin to win." And many players do cut thin. Therefore, more often than not, that rich top deck is buried behind the shuffle card. I.E. the shoe is stacked in the casino's favor.
HOWEVER: If this was true, why would casinos prefer CSMs?
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ —————————————————————————————————————
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
October 17th, 2017 at 7:51:17 AM
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BJPro, as you can tell for an accusation of this caliber you'll need more proof/data/evidence. You'll need to post pictures of your machine, and video of you putting it in "beast mode"... then letting it shuffle... then showing the composition of the cards after. This might need to be done several times in 1 continuous video non-cut. If you do this and you are correct, then you would indeed blow the lid off something. If not, then like everyone else that yells foul, we're forced to just take it at your written word, which unfortunately we can't accept.
I won a billion dollars on a yacht while super model after super model hit on me this last weekend. See, we'd all LOVE to believe that, but in reality, it's just a dream =/.
I won a billion dollars on a yacht while super model after super model hit on me this last weekend. See, we'd all LOVE to believe that, but in reality, it's just a dream =/.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
October 17th, 2017 at 8:00:35 AM
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Completely false information.
First, the machines are certified by a third party (GLI) to work as a shuffler and for MD3's, a card sorter as well. There is no function for the machine hiding cards, knowing how many players are at the table or knowing who is going to split cards, but or stand on 16, etc.
Second, I've used MD2's and 3's for the last 6 years (MD1's before that). I've taken them apart, cleaned them, used every function on them. There is a zero percent chance, they, the continuous shuffler or the single deck shuffler do anything but put out random shuffled cards.
The original post is ridiculous and a flat out lie.
ZCore13.
First, the machines are certified by a third party (GLI) to work as a shuffler and for MD3's, a card sorter as well. There is no function for the machine hiding cards, knowing how many players are at the table or knowing who is going to split cards, but or stand on 16, etc.
Second, I've used MD2's and 3's for the last 6 years (MD1's before that). I've taken them apart, cleaned them, used every function on them. There is a zero percent chance, they, the continuous shuffler or the single deck shuffler do anything but put out random shuffled cards.
The original post is ridiculous and a flat out lie.
ZCore13.
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
October 17th, 2017 at 8:08:01 AM
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Quote: Zcore13The original post is ridiculous and a flat out lie.
This⬆️⬆️
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 17th, 2017 at 8:10:19 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesWhere have I read about this "beast mode" before.....
Exactly,this is the same crap BjGenius has been posting along with Zenking.
It wouldn't surprise me if the op is bjgenius,a misnomer if there ever was one
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
October 17th, 2017 at 8:11:08 AM
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Quote: Zcore13Completely false information.
First, the machines are certified by a third party (GLI) to work as a shuffler and for MD3's, a card sorter as well. There is no function for the machine hiding cards, knowing how many players are at the table or knowing who is going to split cards, but or stand on 16, etc.
Second, I've used MD2's and 3's for the last 6 years (MD1's before that). I've taken them apart, cleaned them, used every function on them. There is a zero percent chance, they, the continuous shuffler or the single deck shuffler do anything but put out random shuffled cards.
The original post is ridiculous and a flat out lie.
ZCore13.
Settled.
October 17th, 2017 at 9:00:42 AM
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I also endorse the idea of posting a photo of your shufflemaster shuffler with something in the photo to indicate that it is your machine and not a stock photo of a shuffler machine.
Does your shuffler have an owner's manual and if so, can you post a photo of a page of your owner's manual that supports some part of your claims?
Could you please provide information about how the Beast Mode is switched on and off by the "operator."
- I understand your allegation that the programming of the shuffler tends to control the cards being dealt as a function of the day of the week. I am assuming that the "beast mode" you refer to is a feature in the system above and beyond the 'day of the week" feature and I am wondering how the operator/owner of the shuffler turns this Beast mode on and off.
I am the person who posted here in WOV (about 2-3 years ago) that an ex-employee of a NC Indian casino had told me there was a "beast mode" (my own words) on the Shufflemaster shufflers for some table games that would change the odds (significantly) in favor of the house. That specific conversation was not in reference to BJ shufflers, but to shufflers for some of their proprietary table games. I made it clear in my post that I had no direct knowledge that this allegation was true.
- The response of the forum was vehemently negative to my post, with a mix of earnest testimonials (from Babs and others) about the integrity of Shufflemaster. I eventually stated in that thread that I was persuaded that the allegation that Shufflemaster had designed these kind of features into a shuffler was unlikely to be untrue and thus my original post was unfair to Shufflemaster.
- I then researched the federal, NC state and Cherokee Indian requirements on "assuring the integrity of games" in Indian casinos. I found that shufflers occupied a blank spot on the Indian Casino regulatory map, i.e., they are programmable electronic devices but because they make no payouts they are not subject to the kinds of controls that are imposed on slot machines and VP games. At least for Indian casinos in North Carolina, there are lots of specific controls on the physical card decks, but no specific requirements to assure the integrity of shufflers, their programming, or their randomness. The concept that shufflers can control the return of table games appears to never have been considered by any Federal entity regulating Indian casinos.
Does your shuffler have an owner's manual and if so, can you post a photo of a page of your owner's manual that supports some part of your claims?
Could you please provide information about how the Beast Mode is switched on and off by the "operator."
- I understand your allegation that the programming of the shuffler tends to control the cards being dealt as a function of the day of the week. I am assuming that the "beast mode" you refer to is a feature in the system above and beyond the 'day of the week" feature and I am wondering how the operator/owner of the shuffler turns this Beast mode on and off.
I am the person who posted here in WOV (about 2-3 years ago) that an ex-employee of a NC Indian casino had told me there was a "beast mode" (my own words) on the Shufflemaster shufflers for some table games that would change the odds (significantly) in favor of the house. That specific conversation was not in reference to BJ shufflers, but to shufflers for some of their proprietary table games. I made it clear in my post that I had no direct knowledge that this allegation was true.
- The response of the forum was vehemently negative to my post, with a mix of earnest testimonials (from Babs and others) about the integrity of Shufflemaster. I eventually stated in that thread that I was persuaded that the allegation that Shufflemaster had designed these kind of features into a shuffler was unlikely to be untrue and thus my original post was unfair to Shufflemaster.
- I then researched the federal, NC state and Cherokee Indian requirements on "assuring the integrity of games" in Indian casinos. I found that shufflers occupied a blank spot on the Indian Casino regulatory map, i.e., they are programmable electronic devices but because they make no payouts they are not subject to the kinds of controls that are imposed on slot machines and VP games. At least for Indian casinos in North Carolina, there are lots of specific controls on the physical card decks, but no specific requirements to assure the integrity of shufflers, their programming, or their randomness. The concept that shufflers can control the return of table games appears to never have been considered by any Federal entity regulating Indian casinos.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 17th, 2017 at 9:50:53 AM
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I note that the OP is posting for the first-time on WOV and thus has restrictions on how frequently he can post. He therefore may be severely limited or temporarily unable to respond to
- the requests for more evidence and information
- the posted assertions that he is a liar.
- the requests for more evidence and information
- the posted assertions that he is a liar.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 17th, 2017 at 10:33:29 AM
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Quote: gordonm888I note that the OP is posting for the first-time on WOV and thus has restrictions on how frequently he can post. He therefore may be severely limited or temporarily unable to respond to
- the requests for more evidence and information
- the posted assertions that he is a liar.
I'm pretty sure he can post more than once at least. But don't hold your breath for any evidence. I can promise you there is no "beast mode". And if you think there is a way for casinos to make all the good cards go to the top and be sent to behind the cut card after a cut, just cut it thin in the back. Like magic, all the good cards are now all in play and the player has the advantage. Lol. That makes me laugh just writing it.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
October 17th, 2017 at 10:33:54 AM
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I wonder if ShuffleMaster, or whatever they're called now, can sue these people for making these egregious claims.
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 17th, 2017 at 10:58:36 AM
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Quote: IbeatyouracesI wonder if ShuffleMaster, or whatever they're called now, can sue these people for making these egregious claims.
These people? You mean the op?
Sue? For what? What damages have they incurred?
October 17th, 2017 at 11:15:10 AM
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If I owned a casino, not only would I use beast mode, I would add Chinese decks to the shuffler as well.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
October 17th, 2017 at 11:23:24 AM
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Quote: AxelWolfIf I owned a casino, not only would I use beast mode, I would add Chinese decks to the shuffler as well.
All you need to do when setting up the shuffler is hit Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right B, A, Start.
October 17th, 2017 at 11:40:08 AM
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By the way, E-bay had a used Shufflemaster MD3 shuffler selling for $9,300. It apparently was sold before mid-Feb, 2016. The seller's location for the MD3 shuffler was Scottsdale, Arizona.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 17th, 2017 at 11:40:14 AM
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Quote: gamerfreakAll you need to do when setting up the shuffler is hit Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right B, A, Start.
Does that give 30 "fives" per deck?
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 17th, 2017 at 11:42:45 AM
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Quote: gamerfreakAll you need to do when setting up the shuffler is hit Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right B, A, Start.
I wonder if this will work on all of their slot machines. Can't wait for that Contra themed slot!
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 17th, 2017 at 11:45:25 AM
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Quote: gamerfreakAll you need to do when setting up the shuffler is hit Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right B, A, Start.
Yeesh im old. I recognize that as a cheat code. Which system? Sega right? Or Atari?
Colecovision?
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
October 17th, 2017 at 11:48:44 AM
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Quote: darkozYeesh im old. I recognize that as a cheat code. Which system? Sega right? Or Atari?
Colecovision?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konami_Code
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
October 17th, 2017 at 12:07:06 PM
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Quote: gamerfreakAll you need to do when setting up the shuffler is hit Up-Up-Down-Down-Left-Right-Left-Right B, A, Start.
Quote: IbeatyouracesDoes that give 30 "fives" per deck?
The shuffler actually shoots a spear attached to a rope out, says "get over here" and takes half of the players stack. Wait a minute.... That was simply back - back - B. I used the game genie cartridge for those more complex combos that gamerfreak likes. You know what, I like Game Genie mode better than beast mode. I'm going to have to email my SHFL contacts about this, insisting they make that name change immediately.
.
October 17th, 2017 at 1:21:46 PM
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First, let's look at the description of how an automated shuffler system works as described in US Patent 61506 (issued in 1999).
1. The sequence of the cards is not randomized by mechanical shuffling -the friction would shorten the lifetime of the cards.
2. Instead, every card is identified. Then, the controller chip provides a "predetermined sequence" and the cards are dealt to match the predetermined sequence.
- The predetermined sequence can be "random" and chosen by a random number generator that is pre-approved by the gaming industry.
- The predetermined sequence can be "New" to simulate a new, unshuffled deck.
- Additional user-defined predetermined sequences can be provided.
The relevant technology description from the 1999 patent is in the spoiler tab below.
The automatic card sorter of the present invention includes at least one card reader for reading the characters on the face of a game card. From the input from the card reader, the controller, typically a microprocessor in conjunction with appropriate software and hardware, determines the rank and suit of the card. The controller also has sufficient memory to store a variety of information. The card reader, in an alternative embodiment, can also read identification codes (other than rank and suit information).
Having been given a stack to be sorted through an appropriate user interface, the controller provides a predetermined sequence for the cards. This predetermined sequence can be random as provided by a random number generator, the same sequence as a new deck (the “new” sequence), or game play (such as required by poker described above) predetermined sequence. An operator chooses the desired predetermined sequence, either a random sequence, “new” sequence, or game play sequence. Additional user-defined predetermined sequences could be provided for. Once the choice is made, the controller provides the predetermined sequence by retrieving the appropriate sequence from either a random number generator (when the choice is “shuffle”) or memory.
The automatic sorter also includes a moveable tray having at least as many slots as cards in the stack. In the preferred embodiment, the first slot of the tray will receive the card having the value of the first position in the predetermined sequence. Hence, once the predetermined sequence is selected, each of the slots of the tray has an associated value (rank and suit) corresponding to the desired predetermined sequence. In operation, each card is read for its value. The controller then causes the tray to be moved to align the slot with the value of the read card into a position to accept the read card. The controller then causes the read card to be moved into the slot by a card feed mechanism consisting of a series of rollers in the preferred embodiment. The next card is then read, and the tray is moved to align the slot assigned to this card, which is then moved into the slot. This process is repeated until all of the cards in the stack have been placed in the tray in the predetermined sequence. The tray is then rapidly spun so that the cards are removed from the tray to form a sorted stack with the cards in the predetermined sequence, which can then be removed.
The random number generator, when the random mode (or “shuffle”) for the predetermined sequence is selected, assures that the shuffled deck is random. Preferably, a random number generator such as that currently used in electronic poker machines and that has been approved by a gaming commission is used, so no additional gaming commission approvals will be required. The electronic random number generator and subsequent sorting into the sequence generated provides a degree of randomness that is beyond the capability of mechanical processes and is universally approved by gaming commissions. By reading the cards as they are sorted into the electronically generated random sequence, the randomness can be demonstrated by comparing the sequence of the cards in the stack after the shuffle to the generated random number as well as to the original unsorted stack.
Questions for the Forum "Experts"
1. Does the Shufflemaster MD3 shuffler identify and locate every card in the stack and then use a random number generator to define a predetermined sequence for the cards? Or does it use a mechanical shuffling mechanism to simulate randomness?
2. What does the GLI certify about the MD3? (and how do you know this?)
- That the RNG that defines the predetermined sequence in the random mode meets industry standards for randomness?
- That the MD3 has no functionality to define any predetermined sequence that is not random? i.e.,that it cannot be operated in any mode other than random?
- That the computer chips that serve as the controller cannot be programmed? I understand that many/most computer chips are indeed programmable.
3. Are you aware of any non-random predetermined sequences for the cards that are manufactured into the Shufflemaster MD3? If so, what are they?
4. Can the user of an MD3 shuffler define a non-random predetermined sequence?
- If your answer is no, then please explain how you know that. For example, if you claim to service and clean shuffler machines, then how do you know for certain the capabilities of the computer chip? Because we are talking about software in a microchip that, in principle, can be accessed by wireless means.
1. The sequence of the cards is not randomized by mechanical shuffling -the friction would shorten the lifetime of the cards.
2. Instead, every card is identified. Then, the controller chip provides a "predetermined sequence" and the cards are dealt to match the predetermined sequence.
- The predetermined sequence can be "random" and chosen by a random number generator that is pre-approved by the gaming industry.
- The predetermined sequence can be "New" to simulate a new, unshuffled deck.
- Additional user-defined predetermined sequences can be provided.
The relevant technology description from the 1999 patent is in the spoiler tab below.
The automatic card sorter of the present invention includes at least one card reader for reading the characters on the face of a game card. From the input from the card reader, the controller, typically a microprocessor in conjunction with appropriate software and hardware, determines the rank and suit of the card. The controller also has sufficient memory to store a variety of information. The card reader, in an alternative embodiment, can also read identification codes (other than rank and suit information).
Having been given a stack to be sorted through an appropriate user interface, the controller provides a predetermined sequence for the cards. This predetermined sequence can be random as provided by a random number generator, the same sequence as a new deck (the “new” sequence), or game play (such as required by poker described above) predetermined sequence. An operator chooses the desired predetermined sequence, either a random sequence, “new” sequence, or game play sequence. Additional user-defined predetermined sequences could be provided for. Once the choice is made, the controller provides the predetermined sequence by retrieving the appropriate sequence from either a random number generator (when the choice is “shuffle”) or memory.
The automatic sorter also includes a moveable tray having at least as many slots as cards in the stack. In the preferred embodiment, the first slot of the tray will receive the card having the value of the first position in the predetermined sequence. Hence, once the predetermined sequence is selected, each of the slots of the tray has an associated value (rank and suit) corresponding to the desired predetermined sequence. In operation, each card is read for its value. The controller then causes the tray to be moved to align the slot with the value of the read card into a position to accept the read card. The controller then causes the read card to be moved into the slot by a card feed mechanism consisting of a series of rollers in the preferred embodiment. The next card is then read, and the tray is moved to align the slot assigned to this card, which is then moved into the slot. This process is repeated until all of the cards in the stack have been placed in the tray in the predetermined sequence. The tray is then rapidly spun so that the cards are removed from the tray to form a sorted stack with the cards in the predetermined sequence, which can then be removed.
The random number generator, when the random mode (or “shuffle”) for the predetermined sequence is selected, assures that the shuffled deck is random. Preferably, a random number generator such as that currently used in electronic poker machines and that has been approved by a gaming commission is used, so no additional gaming commission approvals will be required. The electronic random number generator and subsequent sorting into the sequence generated provides a degree of randomness that is beyond the capability of mechanical processes and is universally approved by gaming commissions. By reading the cards as they are sorted into the electronically generated random sequence, the randomness can be demonstrated by comparing the sequence of the cards in the stack after the shuffle to the generated random number as well as to the original unsorted stack.
Questions for the Forum "Experts"
1. Does the Shufflemaster MD3 shuffler identify and locate every card in the stack and then use a random number generator to define a predetermined sequence for the cards? Or does it use a mechanical shuffling mechanism to simulate randomness?
2. What does the GLI certify about the MD3? (and how do you know this?)
- That the RNG that defines the predetermined sequence in the random mode meets industry standards for randomness?
- That the MD3 has no functionality to define any predetermined sequence that is not random? i.e.,that it cannot be operated in any mode other than random?
- That the computer chips that serve as the controller cannot be programmed? I understand that many/most computer chips are indeed programmable.
3. Are you aware of any non-random predetermined sequences for the cards that are manufactured into the Shufflemaster MD3? If so, what are they?
4. Can the user of an MD3 shuffler define a non-random predetermined sequence?
- If your answer is no, then please explain how you know that. For example, if you claim to service and clean shuffler machines, then how do you know for certain the capabilities of the computer chip? Because we are talking about software in a microchip that, in principle, can be accessed by wireless means.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 17th, 2017 at 1:33:23 PM
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Yes, but does anyone remember the blood code for mortal kombat on the sega?Quote: mrsuit31...
A B A C A B B
Somehow I have NEVER forgotten this. It's been ingrained in my brain for life and will be until the day I die.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
October 17th, 2017 at 2:01:21 PM
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Quote: gordonm888First, let's look at the description of how an automated shuffler system works as described in US Patent 61506 (issued in 1999).
1. The sequence of the cards is not randomized by mechanical shuffling -the friction would shorten the lifetime of the cards.
2. Instead, every card is identified. Then, the controller chip provides a "predetermined sequence" and the cards are dealt to match the predetermined sequence.
- The predetermined sequence can be "random" and chosen by a random number generator that is pre-approved by the gaming industry.
- The predetermined sequence can be "New" to simulate a new, unshuffled deck.
- Additional user-defined predetermined sequences can be provided.
The relevant technology description from the 1999 patent is in the spoiler tab below.
The automatic card sorter of the present invention includes at least one card reader for reading the characters on the face of a game card. From the input from the card reader, the controller, typically a microprocessor in conjunction with appropriate software and hardware, determines the rank and suit of the card. The controller also has sufficient memory to store a variety of information. The card reader, in an alternative embodiment, can also read identification codes (other than rank and suit information).
Having been given a stack to be sorted through an appropriate user interface, the controller provides a predetermined sequence for the cards. This predetermined sequence can be random as provided by a random number generator, the same sequence as a new deck (the “new” sequence), or game play (such as required by poker described above) predetermined sequence. An operator chooses the desired predetermined sequence, either a random sequence, “new” sequence, or game play sequence. Additional user-defined predetermined sequences could be provided for. Once the choice is made, the controller provides the predetermined sequence by retrieving the appropriate sequence from either a random number generator (when the choice is “shuffle”) or memory.
The automatic sorter also includes a moveable tray having at least as many slots as cards in the stack. In the preferred embodiment, the first slot of the tray will receive the card having the value of the first position in the predetermined sequence. Hence, once the predetermined sequence is selected, each of the slots of the tray has an associated value (rank and suit) corresponding to the desired predetermined sequence. In operation, each card is read for its value. The controller then causes the tray to be moved to align the slot with the value of the read card into a position to accept the read card. The controller then causes the read card to be moved into the slot by a card feed mechanism consisting of a series of rollers in the preferred embodiment. The next card is then read, and the tray is moved to align the slot assigned to this card, which is then moved into the slot. This process is repeated until all of the cards in the stack have been placed in the tray in the predetermined sequence. The tray is then rapidly spun so that the cards are removed from the tray to form a sorted stack with the cards in the predetermined sequence, which can then be removed.
The random number generator, when the random mode (or “shuffle”) for the predetermined sequence is selected, assures that the shuffled deck is random. Preferably, a random number generator such as that currently used in electronic poker machines and that has been approved by a gaming commission is used, so no additional gaming commission approvals will be required. The electronic random number generator and subsequent sorting into the sequence generated provides a degree of randomness that is beyond the capability of mechanical processes and is universally approved by gaming commissions. By reading the cards as they are sorted into the electronically generated random sequence, the randomness can be demonstrated by comparing the sequence of the cards in the stack after the shuffle to the generated random number as well as to the original unsorted stack.
Questions for the Forum "Experts"
1. Does the Shufflemaster MD3 shuffler identify and locate every card in the stack and then use a random number generator to define a predetermined sequence for the cards? Or does it use a mechanical shuffling mechanism to simulate randomness?
2. What does the GLI certify about the MD3? (and how do you know this?)
- That the RNG that defines the predetermined sequence in the random mode meets industry standards for randomness?
- That the MD3 has no functionality to define any predetermined sequence that is not random? i.e.,that it cannot be operated in any mode other than random?
- That the computer chips that serve as the controller cannot be programmed? I understand that many/most computer chips are indeed programmable.
3. Are you aware of any non-random predetermined sequences for the cards that are manufactured into the Shufflemaster MD3? If so, what are they?
4. Can the user of an MD3 shuffler define a non-random predetermined sequence?
- If your answer is no, then please explain how you know that. For example, if you claim to service and clean shuffler machines, then how do you know for certain the capabilities of the computer chip? Because we are talking about software in a microchip that, in principle, can be accessed by wireless means.
I don't have access to a current or recent GLI certification for an MD3, but I do have the GLI standards from 5 years ago for how they determine if they will certify a shuffler.
I'm running out the door right now, so if someone does not post them before I get back, I will.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
October 17th, 2017 at 2:17:26 PM
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Yes definitely
October 17th, 2017 at 2:29:23 PM
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Quote: RomesYes, but does anyone remember the blood code for mortal kombat on the sega?
A B A C A B B
Somehow I have NEVER forgotten this. It's been ingrained in my brain for life and will be until the day I die.
I had it for the Game Gear and the code was 2 1 2 D U... that one is ingrained in MY brain.... haha...
October 17th, 2017 at 2:29:46 PM
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Since you have less high value in play chances are you double your 10,11 you’re get 6 or under, dealer chances of having 10 or under with both of his cards is higher dealer is able to hit 17 or higher without a bust are really good - I based this off of a 50 game average out of 56 doubling hands I hit 7 with a 10
October 17th, 2017 at 2:32:38 PM
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Send me your email, I will send you some pics
October 17th, 2017 at 2:34:27 PM
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19000 dollar model equipped witha printer and com card ,do your research. You must work for cnn
October 17th, 2017 at 2:40:25 PM
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I will do you 1 better, I would gladly meet you and a casino and if I don’t leave with 4K profit on a 2k buy in walking out 6 k total the I’ll let you call bs let me know 😉
October 17th, 2017 at 2:40:43 PM
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Quote: BjproSince you have less high value in play chances are you double your 10,11 you’re get 6 or under, dealer chances of having 10 or under with both of his cards is higher dealer is able to hit 17 or higher without a bust are really good - I based this off of a 50 game average out of 56 doubling hands I hit 7 with a 10
What if I cut at the back of the decks? More face cards in play? Why don't you do that on the days they turn beast mode on?
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
October 17th, 2017 at 2:46:33 PM
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Where’s you proof Zcore sounds like you got house profits on your mind . Zcore since you know do much tell me what the screen says on power up . List the first 3 games the pop up on the set up menu, if you don’t know this it’s because your not important enough to know and your just a dealer or janitor that cleans them
October 17th, 2017 at 2:48:45 PM
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Quote: Bjpro19000 dollar model equipped witha printer and com card ,do your research. You must work for cnn
You said you bought a brand new MD3. That costs over $19,000. Your thread is #FakeNews buddy.
October 17th, 2017 at 2:55:28 PM
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Can't we just skip ahead to the part where Bjpro gets banned? Does anyone think that's not how this is going to end?
October 17th, 2017 at 2:59:12 PM
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Quote: BjproWhere’s you proof Zcore sounds like you got house profits on your mind . Zcore since you know do much tell me what the screen says on power up . List the first 3 games the pop up on the set up menu, if you don’t know this it’s because your not important enough to know and your just a dealer or janitor that cleans them
You make me laugh. All day today actually. Thank you.
ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
October 17th, 2017 at 3:09:48 PM
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The text below is from a patent assigned to Shufflemaster in 2002/2003. US Patent US6651982 B2.
Read especially the beginning of claim 47 and then skip down to claim 49 and Claim 51 (in bold fonts.) Shufflemaster patented this technology for accepting an unshuffled group of cards and arranging the cards into either
a) a random sequence, or
b) a sequence matching the original order of the cards, or
c) a predetermined order or sequence.
I have read further. The selection of "random sequence or new sequence or predetermined sequence" is determined by a controller microchip. If the controller microchip were to be remotely switched (via wireless) to a "predetermined sequence," I believe that it would be completely undetectable to dealers and all floor staff, service technicians, etc. (except by the skewed pattern of the dealt cards.) So, WOV forum members could be posting in good faith but not have any way of knowing what is going on.
To be fair, the fact that Shufflemaster has developed and patented this technology does not mean that it has indeed been installed into their MD3 shufflers or into any given shuffler device. But it seems pretty clear that it could be installed. I just don't know. I think it is appropriate to continue to ask questions.
(personal note): I am a research engineer and formerly the Chief Technology Officer of Oak Ridge National Lab. We had a 300 person Instrumentation and Controls division that developed and manufactured customized controller microchips for the military, national security agencies, NASA, and industry. I know something about this subject.
Taken from Patent US6651982 B2 assigned to Shufflemaster (filed 2002, published 2003)
47. A method of arranging a group of cards into a desired order in a computer controlled automatic card shuffler, the card shuffler comprising an infeed tray, a feed mechanism, a card arranging area, a retaining device for suspending cards in the card arranging area, a lower support surface in the card arranging area and an elevator for raising and lowering the lower support surface, the method comprising:
a) assigning each card in the infeed tray a final order;
b) feeding each card individually into the card arranging area, wherein the lower support surface is lowered beneath an elevation of the card feed mechanism when the computer instructs that the card being fed is to be placed on top of the stack,
c) suspending all cards in the card arranging area by means of the retaining device when the computer instructs that the card being fed is to be placed on the bottom of the stack, and
d) instructing the elevator to move, causing the lower support surface to adjust to a preselected elevation, retaining a subgroup of cards above a feed elevation and lowering the lower surface, creating an opening, and placing a card between the subgroup of suspended cards and the remaining cards supported by the lower support surface wherein steps b), c) and d) are performed while an automatically moveable cover is closed over at least one of the infeed tray and the stack.
48. The method of claim 47, wherein the final order is random.
49. The method of claim 47, wherein the final order is predetermined.
50. The method of claim 49, wherein the final order is an original playing card pack order.
51. The method of claim 47 and further comprising the step of reading a suit and rank of each card prior to feeding the cards into the card arranging area.
Read especially the beginning of claim 47 and then skip down to claim 49 and Claim 51 (in bold fonts.) Shufflemaster patented this technology for accepting an unshuffled group of cards and arranging the cards into either
a) a random sequence, or
b) a sequence matching the original order of the cards, or
c) a predetermined order or sequence.
I have read further. The selection of "random sequence or new sequence or predetermined sequence" is determined by a controller microchip. If the controller microchip were to be remotely switched (via wireless) to a "predetermined sequence," I believe that it would be completely undetectable to dealers and all floor staff, service technicians, etc. (except by the skewed pattern of the dealt cards.) So, WOV forum members could be posting in good faith but not have any way of knowing what is going on.
To be fair, the fact that Shufflemaster has developed and patented this technology does not mean that it has indeed been installed into their MD3 shufflers or into any given shuffler device. But it seems pretty clear that it could be installed. I just don't know. I think it is appropriate to continue to ask questions.
(personal note): I am a research engineer and formerly the Chief Technology Officer of Oak Ridge National Lab. We had a 300 person Instrumentation and Controls division that developed and manufactured customized controller microchips for the military, national security agencies, NASA, and industry. I know something about this subject.
Taken from Patent US6651982 B2 assigned to Shufflemaster (filed 2002, published 2003)
47. A method of arranging a group of cards into a desired order in a computer controlled automatic card shuffler, the card shuffler comprising an infeed tray, a feed mechanism, a card arranging area, a retaining device for suspending cards in the card arranging area, a lower support surface in the card arranging area and an elevator for raising and lowering the lower support surface, the method comprising:
a) assigning each card in the infeed tray a final order;
b) feeding each card individually into the card arranging area, wherein the lower support surface is lowered beneath an elevation of the card feed mechanism when the computer instructs that the card being fed is to be placed on top of the stack,
c) suspending all cards in the card arranging area by means of the retaining device when the computer instructs that the card being fed is to be placed on the bottom of the stack, and
d) instructing the elevator to move, causing the lower support surface to adjust to a preselected elevation, retaining a subgroup of cards above a feed elevation and lowering the lower surface, creating an opening, and placing a card between the subgroup of suspended cards and the remaining cards supported by the lower support surface wherein steps b), c) and d) are performed while an automatically moveable cover is closed over at least one of the infeed tray and the stack.
48. The method of claim 47, wherein the final order is random.
49. The method of claim 47, wherein the final order is predetermined.
50. The method of claim 49, wherein the final order is an original playing card pack order.
51. The method of claim 47 and further comprising the step of reading a suit and rank of each card prior to feeding the cards into the card arranging area.
So many better men, a few of them friends, are dead. And a thousand thousand slimy things live on, and so do I.
October 17th, 2017 at 3:17:43 PM
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First of all the are 9 different models of the Md3 . It’s like buying a truck with and without leather seat the bells and whistles I don’t need to link to the network why would I spend money on extras that don’t make the operation different? Think Why does it cost 19000 ? And why would someone spend 19000 on something that just shuffles card ? Maybe to save 10 seconds over a hand shuffle? Put some thought into it guys these machines need to earn there keep you don’t spend money on something you can do for free unless there is a profit benefit basic business skills will teach you this
October 17th, 2017 at 3:22:10 PM
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You make me laugh to Zcore because you didn’t answer the question, guess cleaning them is not understanding them?Tribe casino less regulation ?
October 17th, 2017 at 3:22:41 PM
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Quote: BjproWhere’s you proof Zcore sounds like you got house profits on your mind . Zcore since you know do much tell me what the screen says on power up . List the first 3 games the pop up on the set up menu, if you don’t know this it’s because your not important enough to know and your just a dealer or janitor that cleans them
Welcome to the forum. This is a pretty interesting thread so far. Don't ruin it by getting yourself banned for rudeness or personal insults to those who refute you. The above is borderline : keep it civil, please.
You've made a serious allegation. You're the one who would need to back it up, with proof. People are suggesting ways to do that. We don't know you yet. But we have had others come here making similar claims, all rumor and innuendo, so we're skeptical.
Make your case.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
October 17th, 2017 at 3:25:50 PM
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Why would I get banned dalex? Is this a house sponsored website? Or is just not sharing your opinion good enough to ban someone?can I post pictures here???? Anyway way to post pics???
October 17th, 2017 at 3:31:50 PM
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So Bjpro has added 9 posts since he started the thread, and there's not one ounce of proof? Color me surprised.... I really thought he was on to something.
October 17th, 2017 at 3:39:09 PM
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Quote: BjproWhy would I get banned dalex? Is this a house sponsored website? Or is just not sharing your opinion good enough to ban someone?can I post pictures here?
See my post to you above. This site is independent, but you will be banned if you resort to insulting the people who respond to you. Argue your points as vigorously as you like, but don't attack the members while doing it.
Your opinion is welcome. Facts are more welcome. Proof is best of all.
Pictures can be linked after you post them on a third-party hosting service. I have been very satisfied with tinypic.com . There are many others. However, your links will not work until after your 20th post, as spam protection. So you're getting there, but it will be at least another day.
New members are also limited to 10 posts/day. Another spam protection. I appreciate you are returning to have the conversation, not just dropping bombs and leaving them undefended.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
