deviru
deviru
Joined: Aug 9, 2014
  • Threads: 11
  • Posts: 20
January 26th, 2017 at 7:04:52 AM permalink
i know there are some casinos that uses computer software to evaluate the players skill according to CBJN. i got caught at one of those stores by that "software". the reason im assuming that i got caught by that software is the pit bosses were looking at the computer monitor for awhile and asked me to leave and of course it was stated on CBJN too. my question is does anyone have any information on that "software" like how it evaluates the skill? i dont think 1-2 spread on dd game would be considered as an ap, but what about 1-4 spread on a shoe game? will it catch you whenever you raise your bet on positive count no matter how you spread? anyone know the name of the software?

p.s i was playing shoe game spreading 1-12 when i got caught.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
January 26th, 2017 at 7:17:27 AM permalink
Quote: deviru

1-2 spread on dd game would be considered as an ap, but what about 1-4 spread on a shoe game?


If designed to do that, then the software would determine/consider/flag the player to be an ap or not by its criteria, and on the triggers that it is set up to flag (e.g., any extended player +EV period with raised betting amounts, regardless of spread size, etc.). The house adjusts and decides its tightness or looseness.

Quote: deviru

will it catch you whenever you raise your bet on positive count no matter how you spread?


If the +EV trigger or whatever trigger setting had been set, if the player breaches the trigger, then yes.

I suppose various houses would use tighter or looser settings.

We knew this day was coming.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Jan 26, 2017
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
January 26th, 2017 at 7:54:00 AM permalink
I'd like to know what the data entry looked like. Was someone manually typing in your cards, the dealer's cards, your bets, etc? Systems vendors have been trying to crack table games tracking for years now and I didn't realize there was a viable automatic system that any operator was actually using. Are you sure it wasn't just surveillance manually monitoring your play and making an entry into the tracking system that got flagged for the pit boss at the podium?
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 5393
January 26th, 2017 at 8:04:10 AM permalink
Couldn't they use a shoe similar to Baccarat that reads the cards as they come out of the shoe? I would imagine then they could keep the count and check for things such as +EV situational betting and/or deviations.

Still, to make a 'safe' and 'accurate' assessment one would think they would need multiple +EV rounds to ensure a player is betting higher in them only. To boot what about the drunk guy that happens to ramp up his bet at the right time? Next, what about the counter that doesn't have any concept of Bankroll Management and RoR and while he's there counting and spreading he's going to inevitably go broke to that casino due to the variance of the game? This machine is going to kick out some wrong people, but even of the 'right' people it does kick out I would easily bet the majority would have went bust to the casino anyways.

Software and efforts similar to this are a COMPLETE waste of time and money for the casino. The amount of time and money they spend trying to implement these processes are always larger than the cost of any actual real winning counters. It's funny, because casinos are stupid enough to let these companies come in and scare the bajeezus out of them enough to get suckered in to purchasing these exceedingly expensive systems that they in turn don't really ever learn how to use properly.

On top of that, there's maybe a handful of places that were stupid enough to purchase these systems, so the majority of casinos you don't even have to worry about.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
January 26th, 2017 at 8:07:59 AM permalink
Surveillance is probably involved.

I heard that some camera-based automated systems can track the counts from a shoe (card recognition systems), usable by surveillance crews, with the spread inputted or verified by surveillance also.

I can't see how surveillance is not involved.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Boz
Boz
Joined: Sep 22, 2011
  • Threads: 153
  • Posts: 5604
January 26th, 2017 at 8:18:33 AM permalink
Quote: Romes



Software and efforts similar to this are a COMPLETE waste of time and money for the casino. The amount of time and money they spend trying to implement these processes are always larger than the cost of any actual real winning counters. It's funny, because casinos are stupid enough to let these companies come in and scare the bajeezus out of them enough to get suckered in to purchasing these exceedingly expensive systems that they in turn don't really ever learn how to use properly.

On top of that, there's maybe a handful of places that were stupid enough to purchase these systems, so the majority of casinos you don't even have to worry about.



You have to give credit to the guys selling them if he can scare the casinos in to buying them. That is the American way, build what someone thinks is a better mousetrap. It doesn't matter if it actually works or not once you made the sale. Most don't have a long term vision, only short term profits in mind.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
January 26th, 2017 at 8:35:11 AM permalink
Quote: Romes

Software and efforts similar to this are a COMPLETE waste of time and money for the casino. The amount of time and money they spend trying to implement these processes are always larger than the cost of any actual real winning counters. It's funny, because casinos are stupid enough to let these companies come in and scare the bajeezus out of them enough to get suckered in to purchasing these exceedingly expensive systems that they in turn don't really ever learn how to use properly.



Software and automation generally provides great business savings, from everything from retail to banking to accounting to operations. If card counting apps can be run on an I-Phone or laptop, then this is not a major deal. I would say that most Account payable or client tracking apps would be way more complex than a card counting detection app on a computer. Any gaming mathematician can do this as a small job without much ado if card recognition systems are available, and they are.

casinos run automated player comping apps cheaply and easily all the time, and I don't see how this is an expensive moonshot of an application; it's +1, -1, +0, with bet tracking added.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 5393
January 26th, 2017 at 8:56:29 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Software and automation generally provides great business savings, from everything from retail to banking to accounting to operations. If card counting apps can be run on an I-Phone or laptop, then this is not a major deal. I would say that most Account payable or client tracking apps would be way more complex than a card counting detection app on a computer. Any gaming mathematician can do this as a small job without much ado if card recognition systems are available, and they are.

casinos run automated player comping apps cheaply and easily all the time, and I don't see how this is an expensive moonshot of an application; it's +1, -1, +0, with bet tracking added.

It's apples and oranges to compare "general automation" to what this specific software in casinos is trying to do for blackjack. Of course automation is amazing... but there's no reason to automate some processes as it becomes LESS efficient and MORE expensive.

While I have a great respect for math and mathematicians alike, I actually disagree with you that a general mathematician could properly use card tracking applications to properly identify and kick out winning players. Mostly for the reasons I stated above. The mathematician will go "The TC is +2, which is a player advantage of .67% and the player has upped his bet from 1 unit to 3 units... Kick him out!" when in reality there are a whole LIST of applicable reasons for this... The player is running a progression system and happen to be progressing during a positive count. The player is drunk and betting wildly. The player IS a counter, but one that doesn't understand kelly/bankroll management/ror and would eventually dump their BR to the casino anyways... etc, etc, etc. There are SO MANY 'human factors' that need to go in to this that it could not be easily programmed. It would take someone who is an AP to understand how to program these to have numerous multiple checks to be conclusive that it is actually a card counter and none of the other conditions above. Thus, if any real card counter keeps their sessions short or leaves after exposing their max bet once, then these systems will NEVER be able to detect them. This also doesn't even include the counters that will eventually fail due to variance and lack of bankroll.

Less we also forget... If we bring mathematicians in to write software about WHEN the player has an advantage in real time, I'd imagine some 'preferential shuffling' (which is illegal) would start taking place... "Hey Bob, the app says right now the players have the edge on us!... Looks like it's time to shuffle up!"
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
Joined: Apr 28, 2010
  • Threads: 115
  • Posts: 5692
January 26th, 2017 at 10:19:22 AM permalink
On this, preferential shuffling would be both illegal, and probably not done as especially unnecessary, now that a more clear "back off" point is known, and would be the decision instead. If preferential shuffling wasn't a major issue prior to this technology, it shouldn't be after its implementation. I'd say accuse them of preferential shuffling when they do it, not before the fact.

As for such a system, it would not be hard to do, and would provide more of an indication for the floor supervisor to consider over many hands, rather than a "kill on first action" where the EV is +0.001, and the bet was up from $5 to $10. Also on this, I'd say accuse them on the fact, and not before.

In other words, it'll catch card counting where supervision may otherwise fail to catch it, and where floor supervision would make a call, To make an accusation that they would either go nuclear on the most trivial of events (or, ignore an extreme spread AP situation entirely for that matter), I'd say it would fall somewhere in-between, and where a clear indication of AP had occurred. The whole point of such technology is to clarify, and to provide good guidelines - to reduce the claimed human factor issues.

I'm certain that after some growing pains, guidelines would become more accurate over time as an accurate diagnostic tool, where ploppies would play un-accosted, and where AP's would be politely backed off with heart-warming grace by the pit critters, that these fine institutions are renown for.

As casinos wish to keep players playing, I think they'd ignore a false and trivial positive occurring on a ploppie, but would back off on a more clear cut instance of AP play, accounting for human factors. In this regard, experienced and reasonable floor supervisors would be required.

True, if such a thing were implemented, a leisurely card counting session would be a thing of the past, necessitating hit-and-run tactics for the AP.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on Jan 26, 2017
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Romes
Romes
Joined: Jul 22, 2014
  • Threads: 27
  • Posts: 5393
Thanks for this post from:
Boz
January 26th, 2017 at 11:15:38 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

On this, preferential shuffling would be both illegal, and probably not done, as especially unnecessary now. If preferential shuffling wasn't a major issue prior to this technology, it shouldn't be after its implementation. I'd say accuse them of this when they do it, not before the fact.

lol I've been shuffled on in good counts for raising my bet more times than you've rooted for the house on a topic. Okay, well maybe not that many, but you get my point.

If you don't think preferential shuffling is real and currently happening... Go downtown and play some games. When the count gets big, bet huge, and watch them shuffle the cards. Much like you tell me not to assume, perhaps you shouldn't assume it's not actively happening.

Quote: Paigowdan

In other words, it'll catch card counting where supervision may otherwise fail to catch it, and where floor supervision would make a call, To make an accusation that they would either go nuclear on the most trivial of events (or, ignore an extreme spread AP situation entirely for that matter), I'd say it would fall somewhere in-between, and where a clear indication of AP had occurred. The whole point of such technology is to clarify, and to provide good guidelines - to reduce the claimed human factor issues.

I'll agree with you that the software MUST be used in connection with a floor to make the human decision, but where I'll again disagree with you is on my other points. How will a casino know what a bankroll is for a counter? A massive $10-$1000 spread is probably over most counters bankrolls, but consider this... I said (correctly) that most counters don't understand bankroll and RoR.. Thus they might only be spreading $25-$100, but their bankroll might be $1,000. This wouldn't be a big spread yet the "counter" will more than likely bust due to variance to your casino. These are things that must be UNDERSTOOD by someone who knows the game and considered in a case by case basis instead of a generic catch all program.

I agree these conditions could be refined a bit over time to be a 'little' more accurate, but again, there's just NO accounting for some of the situations I gave above. Thus in the end it will come down to a HUMAN decision with variables from this computer that the floor/surveillance could already know themselves, quite easily. Thus, what is the purpose of the software? And you're going to tell me that the software is going to "save" casinos money in the long run? lol...

Hit and run IS the main way to play the game at this point. Talk to any counter in Vegas. 99.9999% of them use a hit and run strategy when it comes to conventional counting and/or non-team play. I'm glad you brought that up again though, as I'd like to re-iterate how useless this software would be against the standard hit and run player. The only counters this software would even identify is majorly the ones that don't have a winning game and the casino WANTS. This software is going to cost the casino money in more ways than one.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.

  • Jump to: