Bankroll management for BJ newbie

I wanted to post my question on the source website,
http://blackjacklife.com/blackjack-bankroll-management/

However, I could not find a link to post my question there, so I am trying WOO's forum.

This will be my first "live" BJ table experience. My trip bankroll is modest (less than 4 figures) for 4 days of play. I have BS memorized down pat, and I'm only beginning to appreciate the value of counting. I'm playing primarily for recreational fun, and I have no delusions of winning big (but I won't complain if I win a little!). I understand memorizing BS does not guarantee a win, but it should help my session bankrolls last longer. I would have to know card counting and other tools to be an AP with winning sessions. I've been reading a lot, including the 3 articles of Romes's A-Z Counting Cards in Blackjack, and most of the Blackjack Forum postings. I practice with a BJ trainer everyday, and also a card counter too!

Here's the statement for which I had questions:

". . . but a nice general rule is to quit after building your bankroll up by 30%-40%, and stop when you’ve lost 50% of your bankroll. So if you had a $100 bankroll, you would quit playing after winning $30-$40, and you’d also stop playing following losses of $50.

Of course, with a bankroll as small as $100, you might not need to set up any loss limit at all since this isn’t a life-changing sum of money you’re dealing with."

My questions:

If I follow the above with a session bankroll of $100, and the time lapse is less than 30 minutes to win or lose, does the article imply I should stay away from the BJ table the rest of the day? Wait a few hours? Come back the next day? Go play VP or maybe find a BJ game machine?

My personal thought is to at least take a snack break, walk around, stay away for an hour or so, and then re-assess if I want to enjoy a 2nd round of BJ. I'd like to play each of the 4 days we'll be in Las Vegas, whether is BJ or VP.

Appreciate your thoughts or comments, thanks!

Quote: LostWages

This will be my first "live" BJ table experience. My trip bankroll is modest (less than 4 figures) for 4 days of play. I have BS memorized down pat, and I'm only beginning to appreciate the value of counting. I'm playing primarily for recreational fun, and I have no delusions of winning big . . .
If I follow the above with a session bankroll of $100, and the time lapse is less than 30 minutes to win or lose, does the article imply I should stay away from the BJ table the rest of the day? Wait a few hours? Come back the next day? Go play VP or maybe find a BJ game machine?

My personal thought is to at least take a snack break, walk around, stay away for an hour or so, and then re-assess if I want to enjoy a 2nd round of BJ. I'd like to play each of the 4 days we'll be in Las Vegas, whether is BJ or VP.

Appreciate your thoughts or comments, thanks!

Hi LW,
An interesting question. You have been a member here for a while and have already practised and read up on the game and now you are taking it to the table for your first time. Cool. You are in for a fun time and probably some surprises. Absolutely make it about fun, fun, fun.

First off, I suppose you realise that counting for the first time at a live table will be pretty hard work and even if you do it perfectly it will have very little impact on your win/loss rate, where luck/variance will determine the outcome. I'll go as far as to say that counting will be pointless really because you don't have the kind of bankroll to go ramping your bets without taking big risks of ruin.

Secondly, You surely realise that breaking your week into sessions with stop-losses or win targets doesn't actually change much, except the way you will feel in your gut.

Ultimately, to make your bankroll last as long as possible:-

Find a good game with low stakes, good rules, and a slow dealer. A full table will play less hands per hour. Typically the lowest stakes tables might have waiting times, so use that time to observe, get into the mood and practice counting. While you are not playing you are not losing. Watch a few ploppies as they dump buy-in after buy-in, only to play like dicks and lose it in moments.

Anyhow,
It sounds like you will be playing the sort of stakes that I play on my occasional Monday night session, so I can tell you what to expect in terms of time. You want to be getting into the atmosphere, interact a little with the dealer. Express glee when you are winning and feign sorrow when you are not. No point being a game playing machine.

Typically I take £250 or so in my pocket of which £150 is available for play. Emptying my wallet is not an option. Going to the ATM for more is not something I would not want to do unless I had encountered a card flashing dealer.

Buy in for £50. £5 chips... it's a pathetic stack. Play £5 min. DO NOT play side bets. Typically It would bob between £25 and £75 over the course of 15 minutes. Might double it or lose it in 5 minutes. One thing that is sure to happen is that you will be down to your last chip and get a hand that needs to be doubled or split. You will buy in with that next £50. If I double or lose out that £50 buy in, I sit out a few hands to regain composure and pace myself. Never leave yourself too broke to double or split.

One of three things will happen on your first session, each with roughly equal probability:-

1. You will crash and burn and lose your $150 or so bankroll in less than an hour ( Maybe within minutes ) Walk away and don't dump your week's bankroll. Don't chase a loss.
2. You will double or more your $150 bankroll in less than an hour ( Maybe within minutes ). Walk away or just play out your profit for fun.
3. You will pretty much hold your own, bobbing between $25 and $250 for maybe an hour or so. Enjoy it. This is best case scenario.

That last one will be giving you more entertainment for your money and if you can quit and cash out a small profit then that is a great feeling. There is no rush to spend your week's money. If you can win enough to buy a nice meal or an evening's drinking session, then that meal or session will be so much tastier.

Don't get drawn into chucking money away. Don't be goaded into playing side bets. Don't play while intoxicated. Don't be a drudge. This is supposed to be fun. Be funny. Take the piss out of your own virgin status a little. Interact with the dealer and other players a little, but not too much. Enjoy.

https://wizardofvegas.com/member/oncedear/blog/2/#post1311
https://wizardofvegas.com/member/oncedear/blog/#post1397

After I had posted my bankroll management question, I was really hoping to hear from either you, Romes, TF, Ibeatyouraces, Beachbumbabs, and a handful of other posters I've come to admire and appreciate from afar.

Without the BJ experience, I could not visualize the possible scenarios you've put into a meaningful perspective for me.

So I'm glad to say I'm bringing the right frame of mind to the table: not chasing losses, not taking side bets, winning and also losing as gracefully as I can. I don't drink, so that's not an issue (but I'll enjoy a good Barolo or cab for a special dish preparation calling for a hearty red). I'm disciplined with my trip bankroll, so I'll be able to play a little for each of the 4 days we'll be there. The intellectual side of me says that if I lose, I know that I can't blame myself for not learning BS - I believe I have it down pat (but my TR will tell the future story). I also won't blame card counting because I know I'm not yet there (but I will look for lots of small cards before I decide to make a "frisky" play to double my bet once in a while).

I particularly liked how you presented the different scenarios I might encounter. I've read enough to realize that even if I had flawless BS play, and perfect counting, there are other tools I'll need to master -- and even then, I'll still need to have those "steel balls" to face up to variance and unexplainable just plain bad luck.

The most challenging part of "the game" will be the social aspect - which is why in all our previous visits to Las Vegas, I've always favored the relative quiet & solitude of playing VP. But I will at least give it a try and interact with the dealer and fellow players, in the fashion encouraged by many other forum posters.

Thanks also for the extra links to your previous posts - you must be part mind-reader, as my next goal tonight was to look up previous posts of the group mentioned above. Babs was kind enough to point me in the right direction for including pix in my TR.

OK, it's about 72 hours to my first table . . . win or lose, I plan to write a newbie's TR, and my story should show if I dotted the "i's and crossed all my "T's, and also where I need to regroup - but it'll probably be a year or two out for our next trip to Las.

LW

Quote: LostWages

The most challenging part of "the game" will be the social aspect

That's where the fun lies.
I can understand that. It's down to personalities. Bear in mind that if you are at a low limit table, the other players will be a mix of ploppies and recreational regulars, hopefully not hard ass APs. Even the dealer may be less experienced.

You will, of course avoid 6:5 Blackjack tables. I understand they are prevalent now on the Strip

One thing to look out for and maybe avoid: A fast dealer who assumes your play, skipping over you when you have an obvious stand. That would speed up the game and take away some of the pleasure of stating your own decisions. I think such dealer behaviour is rude. Any time it's not fun, take a walk.

Also, no shame in printing off and taking along a bunch of BS cards, to suit the likely rule variants.

Please do report back. Have fun and Good luck. Hope your money lasts to day 4.

Quote: LostWages

... I also won't blame card counting because I know I'm not yet there (but I will look for lots of small cards before I decide to make a "frisky" play to double my bet once in a while). ...

Consider the Wizard's A/5 counting strategy rather than a gut feeling and small sample observation as justification for varying your bet size. You can learn it in minutes, but applying it for the first time at a live table will be challenging. That would give you a taste of what it's like to maintain a count, play your hand correctly, manage your bankroll and interact with the dealer and other players. When starting out, you will find that even getting a cup of coffee during play is a significant additional degree of difficulty. When your session bankroll will no longer support the combination of a bet increase to your level of comfort plus a split and double down on each hand, it is time to color out. Good luck!

I hope you have at least some success, and a lovely time. May your room be clean, your dealers polite, and your cards excellent. Enjoy!

OD - Tks for the add'l reminders and caveats. Yep, no 6:5 BJ, no side bets, and got my BS cards printed out to 3x5 pocket size. I'll avoid the tables or walk away when it's no fun, if dealers are not friendly/encouraging, or if any seat mates are drunk/obnoxious or not conducive to an enjoyable session, or if I start making mindless mistakes and feel uncomfortable. I put my trip bankroll in 4 envelopes, and I'll only open one a day. Trying not to get too excited. Cheers, LW

BleedingChipsSlowly - I've reviewed the WOO's A/5 counting strategy, and I'll try to put it into action. Mind you, just 3 months ago, I labored for hours learning Simplified Basic Strategy (only 21 cells). Then, other forum posters encouraged me to consider FULL Basic Strategy (220 cells). Using the WOO's BS calculator, I even created a BS card (270 cells) to match the BJ tables I hope to play at The Cal.

As I continued reading/posting threads, even more posters encouraged me to consider card counting (Hi/Lo) if I really wanted to fully arm myself. Little did I know that there are yet OTHER tools I've to embrace to become a bonafide AP (indices, I18, etc.). At least I'm now aware there is more to being an AP (not my goal at this time) than just memorizing BS and perfecting card counting.

A/5 seems workable, so I'll see how I manage at my first table. You know what, I haven't prepared myself for the scenario of when I'm playing well (small wins of under $50), and then get presented with a need to increase my bet AND split AND double down w insufficient funds. Ay, caramba!

But that would be a relatively "good" dilemma, vs having no bankroll left, ya?

Tks for your thoughts,

LW

Divide your brother up into sessions. You don't want to lose everything the first day.

Hey, Tks Babs! That's a great well-wish you've sent me!



I feel like the BJ Menehune (good spirits) will be on my side at my table, my hotel, and my restaurants!

And if not, I know it's not always about winning, but playing it correctly (Romes) - and I've already "won"!

LW

Hey, Bill - yes, I made 4 envelopes, one for each day of our stay, and even SEALED the envelopes and wrote "ONLY OPEN ON . . . Day 1 (2,3,4)"!!

I'm bringing some discipline with me, so I'll not worry about splurging. (I'm reasonably sure you meant "bankroll", and not "brother", right?)

Quote: LostWages

Hey, Bill - yes, I made 4 envelopes, one for each day of our stay, and even SEALED the envelopes and wrote "ONLY OPEN ON . . . Day 1 (2,3,4)"!!

I'm bringing some discipline with me, so I'll not worry about splurging. (I'm reasonably sure you meant "bankroll", and not "brother", right?)

Remember what I said about finding yourself on your last chip and not being able to double or spilt. You need to have a buffer for that. Consider an additional small $50 contingency fund ONLY to be used for that purpose. If you have used that on day one. then when you open envelope 2, replenish that contingency from the envelope. It is pretty likely to be needed at some point.

I'll offer some last pieces of advice.

First, for your initial sitting at a table forget about counting: that's too much to reach for. Concentrate on getting comfortable using basic strategy. When basic strategy decisions become reflexive you will be ready to move on to counting.

Second, get used to the social aspect of playing with others. Be friendly but reserved. If someone asks for advice on play, wait for others to offer it and don't correct them even if it's horribly wrong. You will have six other sets of eyes staring at YOU waiting for YOU to make a decision. Don't be rushed, and brush it off if your play is criticized rather than respond directly. Likewise, ignore incredibly ignorant play by others, even if it is obvious they are wagering money they can’t afford to and desperate. Suppress feelings of hostility if you feel someone else’s play fouled your chances. It all evens out in the end, even though our minds tend to remember the losses more that the times boneheaded play gives you an advantage. Feign agreeing with the idea the table is playing “as a team” if you want to, but don’t ever let that stupidity affect your decisions.

Third, flat bet every hand even if it's killing you to do so. Discipline! Until you start counting you don't have a good reason to increase your bet. The devil on your shoulder will point out that you've lost ten hands in a row and a lot of small cards were recently played, so it's a good move to ramp up your bet. Don't give in, no matter how many times you wind up wishing you had listened to the evil one: he will win in the end if you do. Flat betting is your best strategy for playing a long time.

Finally, if you aren't having fun get the hell off the table!

By the way, I had cold sweat trickling down my back the first time I sat at a table. I knew God would see me wagering five whole US dollars that I had worked hard for and it was more than likely the casino would take it. Five dollars that I could feed myself with for a whole day. I hoped He wouldn’t tell my mother, she would be so disappointed. Again, good luck! You will probably be the most informed and best prepared player at the table.

+5.
Definitely agree to not bother counting, except maybe back-counting while sat out swigging coffee.
Something unexpected will happen. Maybe a mis-deal or a mis-pay, or a split to 4 hands all winning, or all losing, or maybe a streak as long as your arm.
Wonder what it will be.
Can hardly wait for the TR. Excited for you $:o)

Quote: BleedingChipsSlowly

I'll offer some last pieces of advice.

First, for your initial sitting at a table forget about counting: that's too much to reach for. Concentrate on getting comfortable using basic strategy. When basic strategy decisions become reflexive you will be ready to move on to counting.

Second, get used to the social aspect of playing with others. Be friendly but reserved. If someone asks for advice on play, wait for others to offer it and don't correct them even if it's horribly wrong. You will have six other sets of eyes staring at YOU waiting for YOU to make a decision. Don't be rushed, and brush it off if your play is criticized rather than respond directly. Likewise, ignore incredibly ignorant play by others, even if it is obvious they are wagering money they can’t afford to and desperate. Suppress feelings of hostility if you feel someone else’s play fouled your chances. It all evens out in the end, even though our minds tend to remember the losses more that the times boneheaded play gives you an advantage. Feign agreeing with the idea the table is playing “as a team” if you want to, but don’t ever let that stupidity affect your decisions.

Third, flat bet every hand even if it's killing you to do so. Discipline! Until you start counting you don't have a good reason to increase your bet. The devil on your shoulder will point out that you've lost ten hands in a row and a lot of small cards were recently played, so it's a good move to ramp up your bet. Don't give in, no matter how many times you wind up wishing you had listened to the evil one: he will win in the end if you do. Flat betting is your best strategy for playing a long time.

Finally, if you aren't having fun get the hell off the table!

By the way, I had cold sweat trickling down my back the first time I sat at a table. I knew God would see me wagering five whole US dollars that I had worked hard for and it was more than likely the casino would take it. Five dollars that I could feed myself with for a whole day. I hoped He wouldn’t tell my mother, she would be so disappointed. Again, good luck! You will probably be the most informed and best prepared player at the table.

BleedingChipsSlowly - Thanks for visiting memory lane and putting yourself in my place to remember that "first time". I was thinking that yeah, my first line of attack should be to put into practice what I spent hours memorizing - full Basic Strategy. The social aspect will be my more difficult challenge, but I'll give it my best shot. The discipline part for flat betting will not be a problem, as I experienced on my last trip (10+ yrs ago) how to make a $40 buy-in for VP last the WHOLE day! That's when I first learned VP basic strategy, and it DOES make a difference intellectually and I guess especially when you get rewarded with your first Wild Royal Flush ($400 on nickel play) -- the memories have lasted all these years, and yes, I did stop my play the rest of the day as we left the following morning).

OnceDear - thanks for extra reminder for my "emergency" double down & split ....

24 hours and counting - thanks to all the encouraging forum supporters, and (thanks to Romes's saying), if I play correctly, I'll know I've already one!

LostWages (maybe WonWages if I return with as little as $1 more!)

Quote: LostWages

The social aspect will be my more difficult challenge, but I'll give it my best shot.

Just introduce a bit of theater into your play. Slightly exaggerate reactions and hand signals. Occasionally groan or say 'Doh!' when the dealer beats your twenty or whoop a bit when your 17 beats a face up ten, or say hit me a 7 when you need a 7 etc. I don't mean wayyyy over the top, but enough to relax and break the ice.

I promise you fun.

To play and to enjoy playing is to be a winner, regardless how the cards fall.

Have you thought about what you will do if you win a few hundred the first day? Maybe quickly?

Remember that with 4 days of equal session bankroll, there will be nothing unusual about doubling your session roll on at least one of those days. . . and losing as much on other days.

I haven't seen any talk in this thread about where you plan to play.
The rules across vegas for bj games differ, along with the limits.

Based on your posts I assume you want a shoe game (if you plan to count), with lower limits if you have limited bankroll.

Short way off the strip you can get a $5, 3:2 shoe game at Ellis Island or Tuscany. These places also don't have the distractions of scantily clad dealers or dancers which can make keeping you proper strategy more difficult :)

I also found last week that some of the downtown casinos only offer 6:5 on blackjack now.

Enjoy the trip!

Quote: OnceDear

Just introduce a bit of theater into your play. Slightly exaggerate reactions and hand signals. Occasionally groan or say 'Doh!' when the dealer beats your twenty or whoop a bit when your 17 beats a face up ten, or say hit me a 7 when you need a 7 etc. I don't mean wayyyy over the top, but enough to relax and break the ice.

I promise you fun.

To play and to enjoy playing is to be a winner, regardless how the cards fall.

Have you thought about what you will do if you win a few hundred the first day? Maybe quickly?

Remember that with 4 days of equal session bankroll, there will be nothing unusual about doubling your session roll on at least one of those days. . . and losing as much on other days.

Hmmmm . . . my claim to acting fame is a 2nd grade play I recall, "Handy Andy", and at a British school, no less! I'll have to remember to bite my tongue to play act . . .

My dream win is about $18,000 to buy and build an enclosed Endless Pool in our backyard. A few hundred will be a great contribution to the pot! But if I do win, I have already planned a surprise gift of delivered flowers for our wedding anniversary (and yes, I have an emergency GO-TO stash in case the BJ gods are not in my favor those 4 days).

All I can think of now is when it will be my turn to share experiences with the next BJ newbie! Thank you - and everyone else!!! - for your encouraging words, reminders, and stories!

LW

Quote: LukeDWyatt

I haven't seen any talk in this thread about where you plan to play.
The rules across vegas for bj games differ, along with the limits.

Based on your posts I assume you want a shoe game (if you plan to count), with lower limits if you have limited bankroll.

Short way off the strip you can get a $5, 3:2 shoe game at Ellis Island or Tuscany. These places also don't have the distractions of scantily clad dealers or dancers which can make keeping you proper strategy more difficult :)

I also found last week that some of the downtown casinos only offer 6:5 on blackjack now.

Enjoy the trip!

Luke - thanks so much for asking! We will be at the Cal for 4 whole days, with a modest bankroll (under 4 figures). Unless the Jan 2016 BJ survey has changed, my BJ target is aimed at the 15 DD tables at The Cal with 3:2 payout, dealer hits on S17, no SURR, no DAS, no RSA, min $5 bets and HE of 0.60:

https://wizardofvegas.com/guides/blackjack-survey/

I won't be devastated if the Cal no longer has 3:2 DD. My backup is MSS, El Cortez, and now I've added your tip about Ellis Island and Tuscany (never heard of the last 2, and they are not listed in the BJ Survey). Tks for the info!

I used the WOV's BS calculator to make a "tailored" BS card, memorized it, and printed it out:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/blackjack/strategy/calculator/

I believe if it's DD, the game will be hand shuffled and I get to hold my cards with one hand - since I'm a newbie, I'll appreciate anyone's comments on any part of this thread.

I have the BS part of the game memorized, but am still quite shaky with card counting, even on my iPad card-counting trainer! I know, it will come in time. I have the patience and discipline to train.

Thanks for your wishes! Have a great day,

LW

Don't sit down to play without at least 30 bets. If you're betting $10/hand, that's $300. (If you're not counting, why would you be varying your bet size?)
Play a shoe. If you enjoyed it, maybe play another. If you're losing or you didn't enjoy it, take a walk.

What to do while you're on your walk... Have you considered Ultimate X?

Quote: LostWages

I believe if it's DD, the game will be hand shuffled and I get to hold my cards with one hand - since I'm a newbie, I'll appreciate anyone's comments on any part of this thread.

I have seen it many ways.

Machine shuffle and hand shuffle work for both shoe dealt and hand dealt games. If it's dealt from a shoe it's unlikely you'll be playing with the cards in your hand.

If they are dealt face down and you're playing in-hand ("pitch"), remember ONLY ONE HAND ON THE CARDS and you don't get to pick up any hit cards - they stay on the table, face up. Turn your cards face up promptly when you bust.

Quote: Dieter

Don't sit down to play without at least 30 bets. If you're betting $10/hand, that's $300. (If you're not counting, why would you be varying your bet size?)
Play a shoe. If you enjoyed it, maybe play another. If you're losing or you didn't enjoy it, take a walk.

What to do while you're on your walk... Have you considered Ultimate X?

Hello, Dieter!

Thanks for your time and comments - some follow-up questions:

1. Why 30 bets? Is that based on your personal experience or some math theory that I haven't read? Just curious. It sounds like a reasonable suggestion, though.

2. Correct. I am not counting, because I have not quite learned that skill. I've only just recently managed to memorize BS.

3. Taking a walk. . . I've never heard of Ultimate X, so guess what I'm going to research now...

Again, thanks for your time and attention!

LW

Quote: Dieter

I have seen it many ways.

Machine shuffle and hand shuffle work for both shoe dealt and hand dealt games. If it's dealt from a shoe it's unlikely you'll be playing with the cards in your hand.

If they are dealt face down and you're playing in-hand ("pitch"), remember ONLY ONE HAND ON THE CARDS and you don't get to pick up any hit cards - they stay on the table, face up. Turn your cards face up promptly when you bust.

Thanks for the reminders and clarifications. I'm reasonably sure I've read it in some articles, but there's nothing like getting a CLEAR explanation from someone with experience! Thanks again!

" 1. Why 30 bets? Is that based on your personal experience or some math theory that I haven't read? Just curious. It sounds like a reasonable suggestion, though. "

Because it will guarantee you win at least 1 hand. No one in the history of Blackjack has every lost 30 hands in a row.

Quote: FDEAD3709

" 1. Why 30 bets? Is that based on your personal experience or some math theory that I haven't read? Just curious. It sounds like a reasonable suggestion, though. "

Because it will guarantee you win at least 1 hand. No one in the history of Blackjack has every lost 30 hands in a row.

Well, that's a good reason to be ready for 30 bets. I'll track my record in my future TR. Thanks, FDEAD3709!

Reading these latest thread additions from LostWages made me smile. I chuckled out loud a couple times too!

Looking forward to the TR, got my fingers crossed for him.

Youthful exuberance is a wonderful thing, allows me to have hope for the world.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

Reading these latest thread additions from LostWages made me smile. I chuckled out loud a couple times too!

Looking forward to the TR, got my fingers crossed for him.

Youthful exuberance is a wonderful thing, allows me to have hope for the world.

2F: Today is Saturday the 8th of Oct, and I just wanted to give you a heads-up that we had a good trip filled with pleasant surprises in all kinds of situations. We left Las Vegas after 4 glorious days of adventures and some down to earth BJ games and other new experiences. Gotta wait for TR.

We arrived in Los Angeles to visit with family, and we are in "decompression" mode now. However, after Los Angeles, at least I plan to get on that Carnival Cruise to explore their BJ, as I have now experienced my first live BJ table in downtown Las Vegas (The Cal, Mainstreet, Fremont, Cesar's Palace).

I am busy updating notes to put in my TR so I can also thank all the other forum posters who have been waving their "rally" flags to support me.

wonWages (just a tad, but you'll have to wait for my TR to see the most unexpected results!)