S17 Blackjack Switch with Late Surrender?
October 27th, 2015 at 6:01:35 AM
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Are there any strategy charts and HE info for this variant of Switch? Not seeing the surrender tables anywhere on the entire internet.
October 27th, 2015 at 6:11:27 AM
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How does surrender work with switch? do you switch and then surrender the hand you don't want to play? or do you surrender first and abandon the switch option? This seems like a game where the mechanics of surrender would be tricky.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
October 27th, 2015 at 6:18:08 AM
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You have to surrender before you switch. In other words you can't switch first and then surrender.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
October 27th, 2015 at 4:10:51 PM
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What if you were allowed to surrender after switch?
October 27th, 2015 at 4:15:07 PM
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Quote: chrisjs87What if you were allowed to surrender after switch?
Personally, I think that would make the game +EV, but I don't have the math skills to prove it.
Think about it, though; on roughly 1/4 - 1/5 of your hands, you could make a good one and a bad one, and save 1/2 the bet on the bad one.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
October 27th, 2015 at 4:31:21 PM
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Quote: beachbumbabsPersonally, I think that would make the game +EV, but I don't have the math skills to prove it.
Think about it, though; on roughly 1/4 - 1/5 of your hands, you could make a good one and a bad one, and save 1/2 the bet on the bad one.
My thoughts as well. If no one here can help I'll probably just try and hash out the possibilities by hand using the return tables on the Wizards site. As far as I know, those tables are for a H17 game though, correct?
October 27th, 2015 at 10:50:26 PM
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Quote: chrisjs87...As far as I know, those tables are for a H17 game though, correct?
Yes, the table at the Wizard's site are for H17 (6 decks.)
For H17, 6 decks, and switched blackjack counts as 21, the Wizard gets a house edge of 0.58%. For infinite decks with the same rules, I get an edge of 0.71%. That's a difference of 0.13% between the two results.
For S17 and allowing late surrender on individual hands before and after switching, I get an edge of 0.17% for infinite decks. Subtracting 0.13% from this would suggest that the house edge is only 0.04% for the 6 deck game.
October 28th, 2015 at 6:15:12 PM
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Quote: ChesterDogYes, the table at the Wizard's site are for H17 (6 decks.)
For H17, 6 decks, and switched blackjack counts as 21, the Wizard gets a house edge of 0.58%. For infinite decks with the same rules, I get an edge of 0.71%. That's a difference of 0.13% between the two results.
For S17 and allowing late surrender on individual hands before and after switching, I get an edge of 0.17% for infinite decks. Subtracting 0.13% from this would suggest that the house edge is only 0.04% for the 6 deck game.
At the risk of asking too much, do you happen to have the raw data you used to figure this out? If you have expected returns post-switch for a S17 game that would be extremely helpful
October 28th, 2015 at 8:32:15 PM
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Quote: chrisjs87Quote: ChesterDogYes, the table at the Wizard's site are for H17 (6 decks.)
For H17, 6 decks, and switched blackjack counts as 21, the Wizard gets a house edge of 0.58%. For infinite decks with the same rules, I get an edge of 0.71%. That's a difference of 0.13% between the two results.
For S17 and allowing late surrender on individual hands before and after switching, I get an edge of 0.17% for infinite decks. Subtracting 0.13% from this would suggest that the house edge is only 0.04% for the 6 deck game.
At the risk of asking too much, do you happen to have the raw data you used to figure this out? If you have expected returns post-switch for a S17 game that would be extremely helpful
Below is a table of my infinite-deck S17 EV's in the style of the Wizard's 6-deck H17 Switch Appendix 1. And, of course, any hand in the table with an EV less than -0.5 should be surrendered.
| PLAYER | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | A |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
5 | -0.269 | -0.188 | -0.153 | -0.117 | -0.087 | -0.157 | -0.223 | -0.299 | -0.346 | -0.305 |
6 | -0.282 | -0.201 | -0.165 | -0.127 | -0.099 | -0.188 | -0.251 | -0.324 | -0.369 | -0.330 |
7 | -0.252 | -0.170 | -0.135 | -0.100 | -0.057 | -0.116 | -0.255 | -0.326 | -0.360 | -0.343 |
8 | -0.165 | -0.086 | -0.054 | -0.022 | 0.029 | 0.033 | -0.105 | -0.253 | -0.292 | -0.231 |
9 | -0.069 | 0.007 | 0.037 | 0.065 | 0.143 | 0.122 | 0.052 | -0.096 | -0.197 | -0.101 |
10 | 0.056 | 0.216 | 0.272 | 0.327 | 0.402 | 0.263 | 0.166 | 0.072 | -0.019 | 0.046 |
11 | 0.168 | 0.325 | 0.377 | 0.429 | 0.493 | 0.334 | 0.230 | 0.115 | 0.075 | 0.107 |
12 | -0.355 | -0.301 | -0.279 | -0.258 | -0.231 | -0.246 | -0.303 | -0.369 | -0.410 | -0.374 |
13 | -0.401 | -0.349 | -0.306 | -0.260 | -0.241 | -0.300 | -0.353 | -0.414 | -0.452 | -0.419 |
14 | -0.444 | -0.349 | -0.306 | -0.260 | -0.241 | -0.350 | -0.399 | -0.456 | -0.492 | -0.460 |
15 | -0.444 | -0.349 | -0.306 | -0.260 | -0.241 | -0.397 | -0.442 | -0.495 | -0.528 | -0.499 |
16 | -0.444 | -0.349 | -0.306 | -0.260 | -0.241 | -0.440 | -0.482 | -0.531 | -0.562 | -0.535 |
17 | -0.304 | -0.214 | -0.175 | -0.138 | -0.075 | -0.171 | -0.442 | -0.479 | -0.476 | -0.523 |
18 | -0.030 | 0.052 | 0.081 | 0.107 | 0.196 | 0.335 | 0.046 | -0.239 | -0.235 | -0.146 |
19 | 0.235 | 0.308 | 0.329 | 0.347 | 0.409 | 0.551 | 0.534 | 0.231 | 0.007 | 0.232 |
20 | 0.489 | 0.554 | 0.566 | 0.578 | 0.617 | 0.709 | 0.732 | 0.702 | 0.498 | 0.610 |
A,2 | -0.085 | -0.019 | 0.011 | 0.041 | 0.076 | 0.077 | 0.011 | -0.076 | -0.144 | -0.088 |
A,3 | -0.120 | -0.043 | -0.012 | 0.019 | 0.053 | 0.035 | -0.028 | -0.112 | -0.177 | -0.124 |
A,4 | -0.143 | -0.065 | -0.033 | -0.001 | 0.032 | -0.005 | -0.067 | -0.148 | -0.210 | -0.159 |
A,5 | -0.165 | -0.085 | -0.052 | -0.019 | 0.013 | -0.046 | -0.105 | -0.183 | -0.242 | -0.193 |
A,6 | -0.145 | -0.065 | -0.033 | -0.001 | 0.082 | 0.003 | -0.120 | -0.193 | -0.241 | -0.215 |
A,7 | -0.030 | 0.052 | 0.081 | 0.110 | 0.207 | 0.335 | 0.046 | -0.145 | -0.188 | -0.129 |
A,8 | 0.235 | 0.308 | 0.329 | 0.347 | 0.409 | 0.551 | 0.534 | 0.231 | 0.007 | 0.232 |
A,9 | 0.489 | 0.554 | 0.566 | 0.578 | 0.617 | 0.709 | 0.732 | 0.702 | 0.498 | 0.610 |
BJ(switched) | 0.731 | 0.789 | 0.794 | 0.799 | 0.816 | 0.861 | 0.870 | 0.883 | 0.906 | 0.877 |
BJ(natural) | 1.000 | 1.000 | 1.000 | 1.000 | 1.000 | 1.000 | 1.000 | 1.000 | 1.000 | 1.000 |
A,A | 0.168 | 0.325 | 0.377 | 0.429 | 0.493 | 0.334 | 0.230 | 0.115 | 0.066 | 0.018 |
2,2 | -0.255 | -0.175 | -0.141 | -0.097 | -0.005 | -0.112 | -0.196 | -0.274 | -0.323 | -0.280 |
3,3 | -0.282 | -0.201 | -0.165 | -0.126 | -0.040 | -0.170 | -0.251 | -0.324 | -0.369 | -0.330 |
4,4 | -0.165 | -0.086 | -0.054 | -0.022 | 0.029 | 0.033 | -0.105 | -0.253 | -0.292 | -0.231 |
5,5 | 0.056 | 0.216 | 0.272 | 0.327 | 0.402 | 0.263 | 0.166 | 0.072 | -0.019 | 0.046 |
6,6 | -0.355 | -0.301 | -0.279 | -0.186 | -0.098 | -0.246 | -0.303 | -0.369 | -0.410 | -0.374 |
7,7 | -0.444 | -0.292 | -0.206 | -0.120 | -0.003 | -0.185 | -0.399 | -0.456 | -0.492 | -0.460 |
8,8 | -0.293 | -0.093 | -0.014 | 0.063 | 0.190 | 0.182 | -0.152 | -0.501 | -0.562 | -0.450 |
9,9 | -0.030 | 0.052 | 0.105 | 0.174 | 0.268 | 0.335 | 0.122 | -0.183 | -0.235 | -0.146 |
10,10 | 0.489 | 0.554 | 0.566 | 0.578 | 0.617 | 0.709 | 0.732 | 0.702 | 0.498 | 0.610 |
November 2nd, 2015 at 3:00:37 AM
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Quote: ChesterDogQuote: chrisjs87Quote: ChesterDogYes, the table at the Wizard's site are for H17 (6 decks.)
For H17, 6 decks, and switched blackjack counts as 21, the Wizard gets a house edge of 0.58%. For infinite decks with the same rules, I get an edge of 0.71%. That's a difference of 0.13% between the two results.
For S17 and allowing late surrender on individual hands before and after switching, I get an edge of 0.17% for infinite decks. Subtracting 0.13% from this would suggest that the house edge is only 0.04% for the 6 deck game.
At the risk of asking too much, do you happen to have the raw data you used to figure this out? If you have expected returns post-switch for a S17 game that would be extremely helpful
Below is a table of my infinite-deck S17 EV's in the style of the Wizard's 6-deck H17 Switch Appendix 1. And, of course, any hand in the table with an EV less than -0.5 should be surrendered.
PLAYER 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 A
You're the man! Thanks.
